Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

SecretFly wrote:Sin é, name a great player that didn't do a few dumb things - greatness is the very edge between glorious and disaster. It's why it works, because it's chanced in the first place, which also means it doesn't always come off.

And as for Leinster's rehearsed moves - for sure. But also a lot of heads-up, quick response, off-the-cuff play too. You can't plan all of it as pure physics means players won't be always where you want them to be, especially the opposition! But you can be drilled and drilled to ensure rapid responses to events on the field. It's how your team mates respond to your act of 'madness' that can often decide whether it's foolhardy or a try. That's the point I'm trying to make.

And so well made.

Its what made us that bit special this year. Even we dont know what we are going to do next, at times. What chance have the opposition? It is not just spurious play. It's players thinking for themselves - as a unit. A total and beautiful contradiction, which works more often than not. I'm just glad Im around to see it right now. Schmidt has set his backs free and they are smiling. Me too.

Thanks Joe. Thanks for comin.

Rodders, I remember the discussions and I remember the mood. I'm not saying he was the Second Coming and that you were all crestfallen when the Great One didn't appear. I'm not saying you were all gunning for him.

I'm saying he was a useful player who was a little too harshly treated (opinion-wise) back during the time we refer to. And so it struck me as a little pointed when I heard Carr spoken about again in such dismissive terms.

All opinions of course. Not saying Stand is wrong or should retract, just noting to him that I remember when Carr was the one who 'snubbed' Ulster and so I suppose he gets it back in return. Incidently, I'd place him a tad higher on my rankings than you but that's only a personal opinion and like I say, we all have one.

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Sin é, name a great player that didn't do a few dumb things - greatness is the very edge between glorious and disaster. It's why it works, because it's chanced in the first place, which also means it doesn't always come off.

And as for Leinster's rehearsed moves - for sure. But also a lot of heads-up, quick response, off-the-cuff play too. You can't plan all of it as pure physics means players won't be always where you want them to be, especially the opposition! But you can be drilled and drilled to ensure rapid responses to events on the field. It's how your team mates respond to your act of 'madness' that can often decide whether it's foolhardy or a try. That's the point I'm trying to make.

And so well made.

Its what made us that bit special this year. Even we dont know what we are going to do next, at times. What chance have the opposition? It is not just spurious play. It's players thinking for themselves - as a unit. A total and beautiful contradiction, which works more often than not. I'm just glad Im around to see it right now. Schmidt has set his backs free and they are smiling. Me too.

Thanks Joe. Thanks for comin.

I think Connacht and Munster have you worked out. I can't remember the last time Leinster scored a try against Munster. Its at least 3/4 games now.

Secret fly sorry I actually thought it was Sin who posted that and he's been on the wind up all day hence my perhaps excessively defensive response....

Like I say I was a bit peeved with Carr messing around with the negotiations. I don't want a player who isn't fully committed. He's got the move he wanted so good luck to him.

I'm happy with the players we have in the back 3 so its worked out for everyone though I'm not convinced that Carr is good enough for Leinster but hope he proves me wrong.

Sin é wrote:
You will win nothing if you're outhalf does dumb things.

Not true. Not true. Not true. But we won't go on, I'm getting nowhere. Maybe I'll just point out to you in the coming months when dumb things happen an outhalf and the team still wins.

My recall reading on the internet that Carr was going to Ulster, but Ulster changed their mind and went for Payne instead. Ulster compensated Carr for his trouble. Carr couldn't go back to Connacht because they had already used up their budget. Leinster took pity on him and gave him a contract for a year as it suited them anyway because of players away at the world cup (probably thought Luke would be away at it).

Anyways the Carr thing is water under bridge ....if you want to check out some dumb things from an outhalf look no further than IHumph....

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
You will win nothing if you're outhalf does dumb things.

Not true. Not true. Not true. But we won't go on, I'm getting nowhere. Maybe I'll just point out to you in the coming months when dumb things happen an outhalf and the team still wins.

I'm sure it will happen that the outhalf will get away with something dumb like that - bet it won't be against teams like Toulouse, Leinster, Leicester or Munster though.

Ha ha love it. Amazing how some peoples perceptions / inaccurate views and plain wishy/washy opinions can be burst by some straight forward logic and fact.

Sin you should be ashamed of yourself letting facts get in the way of a good story.

I will be interested to see how the allocation of the 13 shirt plays out for this Six Nations, particularly because I think it's directly relevent to this debate.

We are, as I understand it, in exactly the position with the 13 shirt, at the moment, as the IRFU wants us to be in every position when these NIQ rules come in. In the absence of BOD, we still have two provinces with IQ outside centres getting regular game-time in the HEC (in fact we have three - Cave, Griffen and O'Malley).

Now, if Deccie were, for example, to pick Earls at 13, what would that say about whether or not this policy of having two IQ players for each position was going to supply players the management would trust to do a job for the national team? We could have four IQ players for every position - if they aren't good enough, or the coach is too conservative to chose them, what will these restrictions achieved?

Carr had signed for Ulster but then Ulster cancelled the contract. nowhere on here do I recall anyone slating Carr for supposedly snubbing Ulster. The only team he snubbed was connacht so not sure where this comes from.

Payne was signed well before Carr was even mentioned. The only variance was we were looking at Cory Jane who initially snubbed ulster so we went for Afoa and got Payne as a project. Jane I think then sounded interested again but we had committed to Payne.

Sin
Wallace and Trimble are experienced but they play about 50% of our games. If you are seriously suggesting our young backs can learn from Humphreys I will have some of what you are smoking. therein we have no outside back with experience. during the RWC we had a back line comprising Marshall, Jackson, Gilroy, whitten, Marshall, spence and D'arcy after Payne got injured. zero experience and zero points. kids will learn nothing if they don't have these guys coming through.

Another point. Fionn Carr isn't a 15 so the signing of Payne had nothing whatsoever to do with him.

DOD, how are you? Thanks for the RUNNING compliments. A pleasure to keep you entertained.

BTW, Sin é has already admitted my 'good story' is fact:

Sin é: "I'm sure it will happen that the outhalf will get away with something dumb like that"

...it's just that he still won't buy it. So there you have it, even the truth isn't a fact in some people's eyes. I rest my logic.

Standulstermen wrote:Carr had signed for Ulster but then Ulster cancelled the contract. nowhere on here do I recall anyone slating Carr for supposedly snubbing Ulster. The only team he snubbed was connacht so not sure where this comes from.

Old 606 would be the archive for that particulat thread, Stand. I'm certain I'm not dreaming it up. I'm certain I discussed it and I'm certain that in some circles Carr was seen to have snubbed Ulster to some degree.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:
You will win nothing if you're outhalf does dumb things.

Not true. Not true. Not true. But we won't go on, I'm getting nowhere. Maybe I'll just point out to you in the coming months when dumb things happen an outhalf and the team still wins.

I'm sure it will happen that the outhalf will get away with something dumb like that - bet it won't be against teams like Toulouse, Leinster, Leicester or Munster ASM though.

Corrected you there Sin. No thanks necessary. Ye are not in the game anymore. Stick with protocol and ye will be grand.

We scored tries against the very best. I object to bringing Munster into an equation they dont belong in.

As long as you're happy with dirge. Thats what matters in Life.

SecretFly wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Carr had signed for Ulster but then Ulster cancelled the contract. nowhere on here do I recall anyone slating Carr for supposedly snubbing Ulster. The only team he snubbed was connacht so not sure where this comes from.

Old 606 would be the archive for that particulat thread, Stand. I'm certain I'm not dreaming it up. I'm certain I discussed it and I'm certain that in some circles Carr was seen to have snubbed Ulster to some degree.

He did.

Dont recall that at all fly. The only ones I recall being upset where the likes of bouncer. Payne had nothing to do with the Carr deal though. the emergence of Gilroy, spence and gaston were what did for him.

Gibson wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Carr had signed for Ulster but then Ulster cancelled the contract. nowhere on here do I recall anyone slating Carr for supposedly snubbing Ulster. The only team he snubbed was connacht so not sure where this comes from.

Old 606 would be the archive for that particulat thread, Stand. I'm certain I'm not dreaming it up. I'm certain I discussed it and I'm certain that in some circles Carr was seen to have snubbed Ulster to some degree.

He did.

Don't you go getting me into more trouble than I'm already in tonight Gibbo! I have already Sin é and DOD on my 'fruity' case. I can't handle Stand too!

Just have to agree to disagree fly

I initially wanted the signing of Carr and think he would have done good things for us during the RWC. Beyond that I think we would still have Gilroy and Trimble as our first choice. Gilroy hasn't been as explosive this seasonnbut he is much more solid defensively and has noticeably bulked up.

Munster bhoys hunt in packs, Fly. Individuallity is frowned-upon, not trusted and is strictly suppressed in Munster - as you can see by their team and their fans. Its a parish ting.

Side-track so. Really impressed with Paul Marshall. Mentored by Pienaar - the lad has it all in front of him.

Why dont Ulster fans laud him?

Because he was absolutely useless for the first 7 games of the season. He cost us Leinsters 2nd score last week as well gibbo. Don't get me wrong I am delighted for him that he is playing well and he gives 100% every time which I respect.

Leinster pummelled the ulster line from minute 5 to minute 20ish at the RDS, we held them up twice over the line before finally succumbing. The next phase we get a penalty on half way and rather than take stock and settle things down he takes a quick tap and drops it leading to the scrum of which cronins try came. if I had been a forward I may have slapped him in that moment.

Don't get me wrong I really like the guy but he is never too far away from moments like that.

Standulstermen wrote:Just have to agree to disagree fly

I'm very easy to disagree with Ah well, time to get off this bloody white screen and go rest my eyes. Catch you later

Standulstermen wrote:Because he was absolutely useless for the first 7 games of the season. He cost us Leinsters 2nd score last week as well gibbo. Don't get me wrong I am delighted for him that he is playing well and he gives 100% every time which I respect.

Leinster pummelled the ulster line from minute 5 to minute 20ish at the RDS, we held them up twice over the line before finally succumbing. The next phase we get a penalty on half way and rather than take stock and settle things down he takes a quick tap and drops it leading to the scrum of which cronins try came. if I had been a forward I may have slapped him in that moment.

Don't get me wrong I really like the guy but he is never too far away from moments like that.

Sorry Stand, my knowledge of him is limited. Just thought he stood out as a leader and motivator at the RDS. And in fairness to him that day, he was carrying those around him.

That mistake though

He has improved immensely under Pienaar and when he does have a good game it is bloody good. I think he tends to do better when he knows Pienaar is coming back. When he had the shirt by default he was dreadful. it says something about his recent form that so many fans are talking about shifting Pienaar to 10 though.

There is no doubt he has the talent. That just doesnt dissappear.

Who better than one of the best SH's in the World to push him?

IRFU Directive is coming...

God, if Paul Marshall is ever first choice... he'll be brilliant for half the season then he'll be terrible and I won't be able to cope. If he keeps this form up he's great. But there have been so many false dawns in his career!

If we get a top class 10 I could live with it, but we won't be winning things with two players who are either sublime or ridiculously bad. Marshalls form in the opening rounds of the Pro12 games of this season were absolutely harrowing for the fans, at one point he looked like the worst 9 in the league by a long way, then when the Heineken Cup started he stepped up to the extent he was a contender for man of the match at Welford Road and he's kicking like he has the ball on a string. Which is the real Paul Marshall?!

I can't think he's good enough to be first choice until he proves the hot and cold stuff wrong. He is a great impact player to have on the bench though. And so, so committed to the Ulster cause.

It's impossible not to warm to him really. So passionate about Ulster and capable of moments of genius. But when he has a bad day, it's a bad day.

Marshall has a massive amount of talent, but also the calm cool head of a seven year-old who has been drinking Coke and eating bags of Skittles for two days. He will fight for every inch and put his body on the line. He bleeds Ulster - if we hadn't offered him a new contract, he was going stop playing rugby - wouldn't play for anyone else.

But having him and iHumph playing is like having a random number generator dictating our tactics.

Loving this inside-input. So he bleeds Ulster. He has the wherewithall to be a great club player. PRO12 & HC?

From what ye 3 are saying, it sounds like he is mentally lazy at times.

That can be taught. That can be corrected.

Man-management issue. Some players are stand-alone and dont need this help. Some do. Sounds like he needs a mental kick up de arse.
Should be given the rest of the season to attain consistency or he's out. If he loves Ulster passionately, that's the spur.

Humphrey's senior should say that to him and see what reaction he gets.

Is that too simplistic?

I just think he's worth the effort. Reddan was at his imperious best and Marshall matched him that night.

Gibbo, I didn't think Marshall was great that game.

But I definitely think he's worth persisting with, at provincial level, anyway. When he's on song, he's capable of some extraordinary stuff.

He has had those kicks before. As Don mentioned he was told he was playing for a contract and he was very good. We are not in a position to be giving him ultimatums gibbo. He will get game time I think during the 6N.

Don,
I found myself compelled watching the Ulster lads play that night. Forgot about Leinster for while. As for Marshall not having a good game? I really think he did.

Specially in the circumstances and strength of opposition. Maybe the only reasons he made mistakes was because he was invloved in everything good and bad you did.

Stand,
I didn't know that. Im learning about him. Ye guys know him inside-out. So, its sink or swim, Paul Marshall?

Im watching him closely from now on.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:
Unless the IRFU can come up with a way to spread the talent around the country where its needed this is all a bit pointless.

The IRFU does have a way of persuading people to move province. For instance, Mike Ross took a pay cut to play for Leinster because he was told by Kidney that he would have a better chance if he was playing rugby in Ireland. Sean Cronin was told he needed to be playing Heineken Cup rugby by Kidney - so, Cronin got a move to Leinster.

But that movement doesn't include Ulster.

Only 2 southerners have come north in living memory - Willis and McCormack.

The other ones we have tried for - Conway, McLaughlin and Ruddock all said No

Sin é wrote:My recall reading on the internet that Carr was going to Ulster, but Ulster changed their mind and went for Payne instead. Ulster compensated Carr for his trouble. Carr couldn't go back to Connacht because they had already used up their budget. Leinster took pity on him and gave him a contract for a year as it suited them anyway because of players away at the world cup (probably thought Luke would be away at it).

Carr was never the replacement for Payne.

Originally Ulster went for Corey Jane and John Andress. Jane dithered and subquently Ulster spoke to Payne. As Payne was not an International this allowed us to upgrade our TH. So it became Payne and Afoa.

We did have discussion with Carr but it was clear at an early stage he was not that interested. No contract was offered and certaintly no 'compensation' was given.

Gibson wrote:Don,
I found myself compelled watching the Ulster lads play that night. Forgot about Leinster for while. As for Marshall not having a good game? I really think he did.

Specially in the circumstances and strength of opposition. Maybe the only reasons he made mistakes was because he was invloved in everything good and bad you did.

Stand,
I didn't know that. Im learning about him. Ye guys know him inside-out. So, its sink or swim, Paul Marshall?

Im watching him closely from now on.

I like Marshall actually and do think he has potential to be top class, even at 27. All the skills are there: He has electric pace, a good pass, is very strong and powerful and his box kicking is of a high standard too, his tackling is as good as anything you'll see from TOL.

That said the criticisms are all valid. His decision making can be incredibly poor and he has made some howlers over the years.

I think he has looked more mature this season and has found a consistancy in his game that wasn't there before. He seems to be taking less silly risks and playing with a bit more control so perhaps Pienaar is rubbing off on him.

Unfortunately he is not in Pienaars league but on form he's easily the 4th best Irish scrum half right now and capable of giving Boss and Reddan a run for their money for 2nd spot over the next couple of seasons imo.

Marshall was Ulster 100m school champion. He is seriously fast and that can be a huge assest if managed right.

He looks it too Geoff, when people talk about a breaking scrum half forget about TOL or Boss, Marshall is light years ahead of any other Irish scrum half in that aspect. If he can get the basics right then he can be a top player.

His pace makes him an ideal bench option I think. I'd love to see his form rewarded with a couple of Wolfhounds caps to see how he does and if he keeps his form perhaps he might sneak on the summer tour.

He has the ability but does he have the temperament?

He is very good for the bench, not surprisingly he played wing at a younger age and is still pretty handy in that position even now.

So if you have a winger who can play 15 he effectively covers 9,11,14 and 15 - very useful

Here is a left field move I have heard is a possibility - John Andress to Munster.

If the new rules are strictly applied they will not be able to replace Botha.
If they are not convinced about Borlase then they will have to sign an IQ TH. Afoa has the NIE slot sown up

Will try and find out if this is a goer in the next week or so

geoff998rugby wrote:Here is a left field move I have heard is a possibility - John Andress to Munster.

If the new rules are strictly applied they will not be able to replace Botha.
If they are not convinced about Borlase then they will have to sign an IQ TH. Afoa has the NIE slot sown up

Will try and find out if this is a goer in the next week or so

Distinctly possible - he's 3rd or 4th in the pecking order at Exe

Munster could do with him right now. Its just BJ & Archer now that The Bull has retired as Borlase has been injured since he arrived.

Could it be possible that he comes on a loan now if he is 3/4th choice for the Chiefs?

Geoff, I would hope in 2 years time when BJ has to leave that Archer will be ready. There should also be a few Leinster props who will have to move on if they want to get any quality gametime (they might even want to move Ross on in Leinster by then as Hagan should be up to speed by then).

Sin é wrote:Munster could do with him right now. Its just BJ & Archer now that The Bull has retired as Borlase has been injured since he arrived.

Could it be possible that he comes on a loan now if he is 3/4th choice for the Chiefs?

Geoff, I would hope in 2 years time when BJ has to leave that Archer will be ready. There should also be a few Leinster props who will have to move on if they want to get any quality gametime (they might even want to move Ross on in Leinster by then as Hagan should be up to speed by then).

Sin, Can't see him being loaned tbh, well not while the Chiefs are still competing on 3 levels - AP (for top 6 Heino spot), Amlin (top of pool so far), LV Nonsense Cup (2nd in table)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Here is a left field move I have heard is a possibility - John Andress to Munster.

If the new rules are strictly applied they will not be able to replace Botha.
If they are not convinced about Borlase then they will have to sign an IQ TH. Afoa has the NIE slot sown up

Will try and find out if this is a goer in the next week or so

Distinctly possible - he's 3rd or 4th in the pecking order at Exe

Well looking up the official states for Exeter only 3 props have played more games, this year, so on the basis that is both TH and LH I would venture to suggest he is the back up TH.

Sin é wrote:Munster could do with him right now. Its just BJ & Archer now that The Bull has retired as Borlase has been injured since he arrived.

Could it be possible that he comes on a loan now if he is 3/4th choice for the Chiefs?

Geoff, I would hope in 2 years time when BJ has to leave that Archer will be ready. There should also be a few Leinster props who will have to move on if they want to get any quality gametime (they might even want to move Ross on in Leinster by then as Hagan should be up to speed by then).

I think it would be permanent. I agree re Archer but if Borlase doesn't cut it I think a solid scrummager is worth signing. He is only 26 and given he can scrummage is well worth a punt imv. Ulster were very close to signing him last year. My understanding is he was ready to come here and when it fell through he was at a loss.

Exeter have taken him back but I don't think it is an entirely happy reunion.
His other half may well want a return to Ireland as well

With the new rules a decent IQ prop is going to be invaluable

I can't quite work it out, but how is Afoa guaranteed to wrap up the TH NIQ slot?

I would have thought that TH and outhalf are two of the most valuable positions. You could argue Pienaar an outhalf option so would the two most valuable positions go to the one province?

geoff998rugby wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Here is a left field move I have heard is a possibility - John Andress to Munster.

If the new rules are strictly applied they will not be able to replace Botha.
If they are not convinced about Borlase then they will have to sign an IQ TH. Afoa has the NIE slot sown up

Will try and find out if this is a goer in the next week or so

Distinctly possible - he's 3rd or 4th in the pecking order at Exe

Well looking up the official states for Exeter only 3 props have played more games, this year, so on the basis that is both TH and LH I would venture to suggest he is the back up TH.

geoff, that is where stats would be your undoing:
* at the beginning of the season with Mitchell at the WC - 1st Tui, 2nd Budgey, 3rd Andress
* Budgey goes off to Forces World Cup - 1st Tui, 2nd Andress
* Tui gets injured - 1st Andress, 2nd academy lad
* Mitchell back but still settling in, Tui still recovering - 1st Andress, 2nd= the rest
* All back and settled in, no injuries - 1st= Mitchell/Tui, 3rd Andress, 4th Budgey
* Injuries to LHs, so cover required - 1st Mitchell 2nd=(and covering LH) Andress/Budgey/Tui

Not to mention that some players will be rested in different competitions, etc.

But am sure that you know better, geoff

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I can't quite work it out, but how is Afoa guaranteed to wrap up the TH NIQ slot?

I would have thought that TH and outhalf are two of the most valuable positions. You could argue Pienaar an outhalf option so would the two most valuable positions go to the one province?

Because they have contracts beyond 2014 and the IRFU have said they will honour existing contracts.

So basically Ulster will definitely NOT have a NIQ Tighthead or Outhalf after Afoa and Peinaar’s contracts are up?

Was that one of the rules? That a NIQ player must be replaced by an IQ player?

Yeah I guess so.

If that rule remains then yep. Although would Pienaar not be signed as a scrum half.

I think Pienaar could resign in a different position i.e. 9 and then 10....what a nonsence rule.

roddersm wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I can't quite work it out, but how is Afoa guaranteed to wrap up the TH NIQ slot?

I would have thought that TH and outhalf are two of the most valuable positions. You could argue Pienaar an outhalf option so would the two most valuable positions go to the one province?

Because they have contracts beyond 2014 and the IRFU have said they will honour existing contracts.

Besides, Pienaar is signed as a 9 not a 10. You could argue it... but thats not what it (probably) says in his contract! Seriously though- he's pretty much played almost entirely at 9 and it looks set to continue.

We'll probably sign a 10 after Pienaar leaves. We haven't had an NIQ 10 in a long time. Munster have had Warwick and Leinster have had Contepomi since Ulster had... well, I suppose Adam Larkin would be the last one? Someone correct me. I don't think we've ever had a first choice NIQ 10 in the professional era. We had Humphreys for years, then O'Connor then mini Humphreys.