Ulster vs. Munster, Ravenhill, 30th Dec 7:05pm

First topic message reminder :

Now that Leinster vs. Ulster (and all the attendant hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth) is over, we can focus on Ulster's second derby this week - Munster at Ravenhill.

Most of the team is fairly guessable - McAllister, Kyriacou, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henry, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Humphreys, Gilroy, Cave, D'Arcy, Terblanche.

Without any updates on injuries, I'm in the dark beyond that. I don't know how exactly the back-line will shape up, although I hope Whitten's in at twelve and D'Arcy's on the wing. I have no idea how the back-row will work, with Ferris at Ireland camp, Faloon and McComish injured, and Diack and the two youngsters having played already this week. If Barker's okay, maybe he'll start at five and Touhy move to six?

If Faloon, Marshall and Danielli were fit and healthy, that would get us out of a hole.

What will Munster's line-up be on Friday? Anyone want to hazard a guess? POM, Murphy, Hurley, Botha, du Preez all likely to be in the first VX? Who will be in second row? Who will play at outhalf?

Well that was pathetic. Credit to Ulster for taking their chances but you simply can't afford to gift 3 tries. Keatley looked lost, Williams doesn't deserve full fault for the 2 scrum tries but should take some of it. He didn't pass it or take it on he held the ball very loose going into contact. Not many positives, stupid knockons, guys getting isolated at the breakdown and all round dumb ass play. As DOD said it was liek watching an U-13 team and a very poor one at that.



Ulster played well. They defended very well and showed an ability to carve up the defence(led to Terblanche's superb try in the corner) and a few other chances. Munster didn't show any of that ability all night. Their scrum was great and when you consider we had 2 HC front row starting it's a bit worrying. Ulster were full value for their win so no complaints.

Apologies, Stand - didn't mean to come across as aggressive, and in the cold light of day I can see how it may have seemed I was being a bit shrill and hysterical. I just felt we were pilloried for the team we sent down to Dublin, in a very undeserving manner. And the proof of the pudding is in five points from two games in four days aganst - in my view- the two best teams in the Pro12, for a team with paper-thin resources

And just for a couple of poster here thats not to take from Ulster who did exactly what they had to do and comfortably beat the team put in front of them.

Agree completely with that sentiment.

Keatley just doesn't look like he has the ability to be consistently good. His level of play is not at HC level and at the moment I don't think he will make it. Comparing him with Warwick or Jones is like comparing apples and oranges in terms of level of ability and they had shown that ability previous to joining Munster. As a work in progress he isn't making any.

To be fair to keatley, with ROG playing as well as he is he was never going to break into the HC team. He would have been better to play with connacht this year and then looked at his options. I think he made the wrong decision.

Another bit of fantastic journalism.....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/Rabodirect-PRO12/foreign-legion-drive-ulster-to-derby-triumph-2976693.html

I've posted this reply but I'm still spitting teeth.....

It's baffling in the extreme as to why your newspaper (and others) keep singling out ulster's overseas signings. Leinster, Munster and Ulster all have the same number of overseas players. Munster have three props in BJ Botha, Du Preez and Borlase keeping out Irish players (Ulster have 1 prop). Howlett but for injury would be doing the same on the wing. Mafi has been a constant presence in the centre stiffiling the development of Irish centres. Ulster have the same number and in areas that are not to the determent of Irish Rugby - Are Ireland short Scrum Halves ..no! are they short back rows..no! are they lacking in the second row..no! I agree the signing of Terblanche is very questionable with all the young talent in Ulster. I'm however sure the other provinces, if in the same situation, would have looked to bring in an experienced head to an otherwise very young and very Irish set of backs..

Does anbody else feel as strongly as me on this issue?

What do you mean by 'your' newspaper?

DOD that's the reply he left under the article on the indo site. Hence "your".

RTE made a comment on Ulsters "foreign legion" last night too, far too much made of it, they're in the same boat as the rest of us, but with less rubbish (no clint newland, nick williams, mariano galarza etc.)

It's very annoying. We've seen the difference between Munsters Irish props and their NIQ props in their partial absence last night and that doesn't get picked up on. Of course we also have an NIQ prop who makes a huge difference to our scrum.

All the provinces are as bad as each other when it comes to NIQs really. Munster have brought in Toby Morland and Will Chambers as injury replacements in recent years so comments about Terblance are a bit rich!

But then, we're as bad. As they are as bad as us. But whenever we do anything they trot out this line about the foreign players. They were all very influential for us- thats good. Thats why they were signed; because we aren't going to get to play our best homegrown international players in these games.

I agree. Ulster have recruited wisely in terms of their foreign imports in the right positions.

Its not meant to be aggressive - the "your" refers to multiple journalists with the same newspaper talking the same nonesense....

I'm not sure who wrote that particular article but Hugh Farrelly wrote a similar piece ( for the indo) earlier in the week - maybe he wrote both of them..

DOD wrote:I agree. Ulster have recruited wisely in terms of their foreign imports in the right positions.

Same for Munster. In fact without bj we would be bottom of our HC group and probably winless

I really don't get all the discussion about the team we sent to Leinster.

With only 4 days between the 2 games it had to be pretty much 2 separate squads, no?

Since not many teams leave the RDS with anything it made absolute sense to focus on the home game.

Yes it would have been nice to be able to send a few "old hands" down to Dublin to mind the weeuns and they would almost certainly have learnt more that way but we just don't have the depth to do that at the moment and still give ourselves the chance to do what we did last night.

It is a total no brainer surely.

And it worked so well.

I have to say I feared for Munster this season as I wasn't sure if Botha would be fit for much of it. I agree totally with dod though. He was the single biggest reason munster did the double over the scarlets

Not to mind Northampton and Castres. We have no depth in our squad at the moment. Plenty of prospects but that is all. Our HC team is looking like it will get a QF and that will be progress, a semi in the league would be decent as well. Injuries to any of POC ROG POM BJ or Murray and Earls and we have serious problems

Great result. Need to watch it back again but my impression was that we were pretty poor/sloppy in the 1st half and Munster looked the better organised side.

Munster seemed to just fall away after the Terblanche try and some of our attacking play in the 2nd half was excellent. The hits were huge and I think we had the better of the set piece and breakdown too.

It was a very disappointing display from Munster but a fantastic result for us and gives us some much needed momentum heading into the new year.

The only worrying thing is how much we seem to be reliant on Pienaar for direction on the field, he was magnificant. Terblanche showed great pace for the try and has fully justified his signing.

Nice wee article here. The biggest bromance in Irish Rugby.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1231/1224309674679.html

Maybe we can all learn from that
Yeah right!

johnnymonaghan wrote:Another bit of fantastic journalism.....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/Rabodirect-PRO12/foreign-legion-drive-ulster-to-derby-triumph-2976693.html

I've posted this reply but I'm still spitting teeth.....

It's baffling in the extreme as to why your newspaper (and others) keep singling out ulster's overseas signings. Leinster, Munster and Ulster all have the same number of overseas players. Munster have three props in BJ Botha, Du Preez and Borlase keeping out Irish players (Ulster have 1 prop). Howlett but for injury would be doing the same on the wing. Mafi has been a constant presence in the centre stiffiling the development of Irish centres. Ulster have the same number and in areas that are not to the determent of Irish Rugby - Are Ireland short Scrum Halves ..no! are they short back rows..no! are they lacking in the second row..no! I agree the signing of Terblanche is very questionable with all the young talent in Ulster. I'm however sure the other provinces, if in the same situation, would have looked to bring in an experienced head to an otherwise very young and very Irish set of backs..

Does anbody else feel as strongly as me on this issue?

Have to agree, always seems to be a bit of bias towards Ulster when they beat either Munster or Leinster. I Try and stay away from these rags.

Notch wrote:Nice wee article here. The biggest bromance in Irish Rugby.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1231/1224309674679.html

Maybe we can all learn from that
Yeah right!

Nice article Notch.

Having watched the match again both teams were better than I first thought.

Yes, a great read Notch.

Oh yeah I thought Ian Whitten was outstanding...he certainly fits the bill as a physical ball carrying 12 with good hands. Cave played well too and don't agree with those that say he lacks pace...he has a similar upright running style to Bowe and Girvan Dempsey which makes him look like he's not moving fast when he actually is.

Both Henry and Faloon were excellent for Ulster and Adam D'arcy continues with his excellent form. Young O'Dea looks like an exciting prospect for Munster too and Mick O'Driscoll showed hes not done yet. I thought Keatley played very well too but IHumph probably just shaded the 10 battle.

On a foreign legion note Terblanche was superb, as were Muller, Pienaar and best of all Afoa who could prove to be one of the best overseas signings to grace Irish soil so far.

Did i hear the commentators say O'Dea was 24?

Good shout on Whitten. Nice hands shown for the 2nd try. Some lovely tackles which i thought were Faloon. i genuinely think he will have to move on to further himself as we have Wallace, Marshall (henceforth known as glassman) with Farrell coming through, not to mention Spence.

I find myself banging my head against a table/wall/whatever hard surface is closest when people compare Marshall to Pienaar or claim the latter is holding wee paul back. Watch the pass he puts in to iHumph when Henry recycles the ball for the 2nd try. Exquisite and on a sixpence. two pieces of world class play from him in that try

Yeah stand he but in some huge hits, one huge one in particular on Coughlan. I thought he dominated Mafi overall and had an all round very good game. His crash ball created the gap for Afoa's try too.

Agree that Marshall is playing extremely well but Pienaar is a different class.

Luke O'Dea is only 22 no way is he 24.

Standulstermen wrote:

I find myself banging my head against a table/wall/whatever hard surface is closest when people compare Marshall to Pienaar or claim the latter is holding wee paul back. Watch the pass he puts in to iHumph when Henry recycles the ball for the 2nd try. Exquisite and on a sixpence. two pieces of world class play from him in that try

Stand my head hurts as well. Peinaar is in the top five scrum halfs in the world IMO.

It is true. You can't replace a player like Ruan. The momentum he can give a team...

Rava wrote:
Stand my head hurts as well. Peinaar is in the top five scrum halfs in the world IMO.

No-ones saying he isn't its just that Marshall is in the top 3!

I think though Marshall needs regular rugby...there is a conundrum here in that Marshall is one of the form Irish scrumhalves this season. He has electric pace and a breaking threat far beyond any Irish scrum half. He's deceptively physical too and playing the best rugby of his career.

However he is up against Pienaar who is possibly the best scrum half in Europe and one of the best in the World. Should Marshall move to Connacht or do Ulster let Pienaar go?

I love Marshall but you cannot compare the two. I also think he is not within the top 4 in the Ireland set-up.

I think Pienaar is extremely versatile and could play 10, 12 or 15 and still be just as good a player as he is at 9. That is why people are talking of moving Pienaar to 10, with Marshall starting at 9. Mainly due to Humphrey's erratic performances and Marshall finding form/consistency. I think no matter what though, Pienaar MUST be kept on to play for Ulster. Seriously.

Rava wrote:I love Marshall but you cannot compare the two. I also think he is not within the top 4 in the Ireland set-up.

Murray, Reddan, Boss and..? I would actually put him in as 4th choice, as TOL certainly shouldn't be.

Yes but under the new IRFU rules we may not be able to keep Pienaar long term anyway. Personally I'd never let him go but rules are rules...

I think Marshall is top 4 in Ireland right now, maybe top 3.

He's in my top 3 but my top 3 doesn't really count.

I actually think he might be top 4 in the set up Rava or getting close... Kidney has never rated Boss and TOL seems to be struggling to get games for Munster let alone Ireland. Reddan and Boss are both 30 plus too so I'd say Marshall has plenty to play for.

Thomond wrote:Luke O'Dea is only 22 no way is he 24.

Cheers thomond. I had been thinking 24 is on he old side given the age of gilroy, Zebo, Conway etc but that makes much more sense. He looks about 14

I really don't want us to lose pienaar. IMO he is the best scrum half in the NH. Passing is the currency of rugby union and he does it better than I have ever seen done (live that is). I love the effort and professionalism that Marshall displays but he will never start for Ireland as far as I can see because he is too prone too error at Pro12 and Hec rugby. I hope the lad proves me wrong and I genuinely hope he is an ulster player for years to come because I do admire the commitment he displays but I don't think he possesses that Pienaar class. another 3 year contract for Ruan would have me delirious

Donal Lenihan commented that Pienaar looks more comfortable at 10 (he was praising the form of Marshall). Also said that the IRFU did not stipulate that Pienaar could only play at 9 - it was Ulster's decision to do that.

They had a bit of a laugh about Humphreys brother being Director of Rugby in Ulster.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1128957



The part about Pienaar/Marshall is from about 15 mins in.

Sin é wrote:Donal Lenihan commented that Pienaar looks more comfortable at 10 (he was praising the form of Marshall). Also said that the IRFU did not stipulate that Pienaar could only play at 9 - it was Ulster's decision to do that.

They had a bit of a laugh about Humphreys brother being Director of Rugby in Ulster.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1128957



The part about Pienaar/Marshall is from about 15 mins in.

And what is your opinion on Pienaar/Humphreys or Marshall/Pienaar Sin? Which do you prefer?

Could people stop comparing Pienaar to IHumph and Marshall...Pienaar is world class and has 50 odd caps for the springboks, hes one of the best players in europe right now in any position. Marshall and Ihumph are talented players but there is no comparison.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Donal Lenihan commented that Pienaar looks more comfortable at 10 (he was praising the form of Marshall). Also said that the IRFU did not stipulate that Pienaar could only play at 9 - it was Ulster's decision to do that.

They had a bit of a laugh about Humphreys brother being Director of Rugby in Ulster.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1128957



The part about Pienaar/Marshall is from about 15 mins in.

And what is your opinion on Pienaar/Humphreys or Marshall/Pienaar Sin? Which do you prefer?

I think if Ulster want to win anything they should have Pienaar at 10. I can't figure Marshall out - he has good form at the moment, but I can't understand why he hasn't progressed more in his career as he is 25/26.

Marshall hasn't progressed further because his feet work faster than his brain. He can do the spectacular but up until now hasn't done the basics well enough. Thankfully he seems to be settling down a bit and showing some consistancy. Maybe he will be a late bloomer and his electric pace makes him an ideal impact player.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Rava wrote:I love Marshall but you cannot compare the two. I also think he is not within the top 4 in the Ireland set-up.

Murray, Reddan, Boss and..? I would actually put him in as 4th choice, as TOL certainly shouldn't be.

Liam Toland* (I think) did some analysis last week of the performance of the SHs - reckoned Franke Murphy was the best performing SH of those who played in the Lein v Ulster & Munster v Connacht games. I actually watched Murphy in the game today - he is a decent enough SH.

*It might have been Emmet Byrne.

roddersm wrote:Marshall hasn't progressed further because his feet work faster than his brain. He can do the spectacular but up until now hasn't done the basics well enough. Thankfully he seems to be settling down a bit and showing some consistancy. Maybe he will be a late bloomer and his electric pace makes him an ideal impact player.

Getting a few games in a row might be the reason why he is performing well.

roddersm wrote:Could people stop comparing Pienaar to IHumph and Marshall...Pienaar is world class and has 50 odd caps for the springboks, hes one of the best players in europe right now in any position. Marshall and Ihumph are talented players but there is no comparison.

I don't think anyone is comparing Pienaar to either of those players from what I see. It seems everyone acknowledges that Pienaar must start at either 9 or 10, and Marshall or Humphreys will get the chance to partner him. My vote is for Marshall if his form continues.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Marshall hasn't progressed further because his feet work faster than his brain. He can do the spectacular but up until now hasn't done the basics well enough. Thankfully he seems to be settling down a bit and showing some consistancy. Maybe he will be a late bloomer and his electric pace makes him an ideal impact player.

Getting a few games in a row might be the reason why he is performing well.

Marshall got 7/8 games on the trot at the start of the season and got more brutal with each one. His performance against Clermont seemed to turn the tide.

BlueMuff wrote:I dont think so SUM. We are third but I wouldnt put that down to Keatley. I never thought he was good enough to replace ROG and lead us to HC success. He is an average Pro12 10. Last week and this week has proved that when the pressure is on he doesnt have the big match temprement that top class fly halfs have.

Warrick would have been a better fly half that Keatley if still around.

Put it another way would you be happy for Keatly to come on in the 6Ns as back up to Sexton?

He speaks the Truth. :largebottleoffdetopshelf:
Blue, who do you think could be Ireland's no 3 outhalf? I have no phooking idea at this stage. All I know is, its not coming from Ulster or Munster right now. De 2 x Ians, are not the answer. Everyone knows that by now.

Madigan is brilliant, in every required skill - to fit the bill. Except for the fact he cant, or is not trusted to - place-kick yet. He's a phhoking 10. Sorry, but I find that a bit strange under Schmidt. Should be entrusted to place-kick. Very soon.

If anyone fancies a laugh there's a boy on the Munsterfans forum about this match called Thomond78 who thinks he's God's gift to refereeing. Possibly the worst loser I've ever seen, along with his second in command 'The Word Is Born'.

There's a very simple reason why it's better to have Pienaar at 9 than 10 and that is the speed of service from the ruck and the quality of the pass.

Paul Marshall is just like Humphreys. Occasionally brilliant, occasionally dire and often very questionable in terms of decision making. Marshall is on a hot streak of form right now like we've seen from Humph at various times in the past but you wouldn't want either of them near a green shirt in truth.

Gibson wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:I dont think so SUM. We are third but I wouldnt put that down to Keatley. I never thought he was good enough to replace ROG and lead us to HC success. He is an average Pro12 10. Last week and this week has proved that when the pressure is on he doesnt have the big match temprement that top class fly halfs have.

Warrick would have been a better fly half that Keatley if still around.

Put it another way would you be happy for Keatly to come on in the 6Ns as back up to Sexton?

He speaks the Truth. :largebottleoffdetopshelf:
Blue, who do you think could be Ireland's no 3 outhalf? I have no phooking idea at this stage. All I know is, its not coming from Ulster or Munster right now. De 2 x Ians, are not the answer. Everyone knows that by now.

Madigan is brilliant, in every required skill - to fit the bill. Except for the fact he cant, or is not trusted to - place-kick yet. He's a phhoking 10. Sorry, but I find that a bit strange under Schmidt. Should be entrusted to place-kick. Very soon.

I think both Ihumph and Keatley played very well actually. Both missed a couple of easy place kicks but given that Madigan isn't kicking at all I don't think that can be used against them when discussing their credentials v Madigans.

JmD wrote:If anyone fancies a laugh there's a boy on the Munsterfans forum about this match called Thomond78 who thinks he's God's gift to refereeing. Possibly the worst loser I've ever seen, along with his second in command 'The Word Is Born'.

You might not like his style of posting but that particular poster is one of the few posters on any forum who actually knows the laws with regard to how the scrum is reffed. Rolland is a really top ref and I love when he is reffing as he keeps the game moving, but he did miss a few things in that game. I wouldn't mind the odd forward pass, but I was disppointed that he missed Falloon's 'binding' onto the Munster player rather than his own lock which resulted in an Ulster try. As an ex-scrumhalf he should have spotted that one and given Munster a penalty. Nigel Owens would not have missed it!

Are you Big Al on Munsterfans?

(By the way, Ulster deserved their win - Munster were poor).

roddersm wrote:

Gibson wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:I dont think so SUM. We are third but I wouldnt put that down to Keatley. I never thought he was good enough to replace ROG and lead us to HC success. He is an average Pro12 10. Last week and this week has proved that when the pressure is on he doesnt have the big match temprement that top class fly halfs have.

Warrick would have been a better fly half that Keatley if still around.

Put it another way would you be happy for Keatly to come on in the 6Ns as back up to Sexton?

He speaks the Truth. :largebottleoffdetopshelf:
Blue, who do you think could be Ireland's no 3 outhalf? I have no phooking idea at this stage. All I know is, its not coming from Ulster or Munster right now. De 2 x Ians, are not the answer. Everyone knows that by now.

Madigan is brilliant, in every required skill - to fit the bill. Except for the fact he cant, or is not trusted to - place-kick yet. He's a phhoking 10. Sorry, but I find that a bit strange under Schmidt. Should be entrusted to place-kick. Very soon.

I think both Ihumph and Keatley played very well actually. Both missed a couple of easy place kicks but given that Madigan isn't kicking at all I don't think that can be used against them when discussing their credentials v Madigans.

Keatley & Humphreys were both poor. Madigan looks by far the best prospect at the moment - his game management has improved a fair bit. Leinster won against Connact with Nacewa exceptionally good placekicking and Connact lost through poor placekicking. You can't blame a coach for choosing his best place kicker. Madigan is still only 22 - if he sorts out his kicking game, he should get an opportunity to impress on the summer tour.