Ulster vs. Munster, Ravenhill, 30th Dec 7:05pm

First topic message reminder :

Now that Leinster vs. Ulster (and all the attendant hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth) is over, we can focus on Ulster's second derby this week - Munster at Ravenhill.

Most of the team is fairly guessable - McAllister, Kyriacou, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henry, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Humphreys, Gilroy, Cave, D'Arcy, Terblanche.

Without any updates on injuries, I'm in the dark beyond that. I don't know how exactly the back-line will shape up, although I hope Whitten's in at twelve and D'Arcy's on the wing. I have no idea how the back-row will work, with Ferris at Ireland camp, Faloon and McComish injured, and Diack and the two youngsters having played already this week. If Barker's okay, maybe he'll start at five and Touhy move to six?

If Faloon, Marshall and Danielli were fit and healthy, that would get us out of a hole.

What will Munster's line-up be on Friday? Anyone want to hazard a guess? POM, Murphy, Hurley, Botha, du Preez all likely to be in the first VX? Who will be in second row? Who will play at outhalf?

I'm not saying anything against Madigan, he looks quality but I haven't seen enough of him yet to have a strong opinion. The fact that he doesn't take the place kicks doesn't bother me, some great fly halves like Townsend and Larkham weren't place kicker either.

Disagree on Keatley and IHumph. There is double standards here. IHumph scored 15 points, including a try and Keatley got an assist. Neither were brilliant but they were far from poor either. ROG plays rubbish for 65 min and nails a drop goal or a few place kicks and some people hail him as the best in Europe.

I think Keatley did very well behind a beaten pack and alongside a struggling scrum half.

Sin é wrote:

JmD wrote:If anyone fancies a laugh there's a boy on the Munsterfans forum about this match called Thomond78 who thinks he's God's gift to refereeing. Possibly the worst loser I've ever seen, along with his second in command 'The Word Is Born'.

You might not like his style of posting but that particular poster is one of the few posters on any forum who actually knows the laws with regard to how the scrum is reffed. Rolland is a really top ref and I love when he is reffing as he keeps the game moving, but he did miss a few things in that game. I wouldn't mind the odd forward pass, but I was disppointed that he missed Falloon's 'binding' onto the Munster player rather than his own lock which resulted in an Ulster try. As an ex-scrumhalf he should have spotted that one and given Munster a penalty. Nigel Owens would not have missed it!

Are you Big Al on Munsterfans?

(By the way, Ulster deserved their win - Munster were poor).

I'm not a member there, I was just having a read through what they had to say. I am a front row however, and the poster seems to be fixated on MacAllister's 'illegal' scrummaging technique, which having watched the match for a second time, I can't find anything wrong with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFzbFsWeLuU&feature=channel_video_title

It looks like Faloon is still bound on his own player, it's the kicking out of the ball that's the problem in my opinion. Rolland must have judged it to be already out.

JmD - I had a read back and I think you do those posters a massive disservice. I saw one of them agreed Ulster deserved to win, were the better side and should be proud of themselves. Hardly the mark of a sore loser.

To me it is very clear that McAllister bores immediately inwards and Faloon drops his bind and boots out the ball. The fact that lots of props scrummage by boring inwards and upwards doesn't make it legal though. Its very clear you can't twist inwards or drive upwards.

However had the backs done their job we wouldn't be analysing this. The more worrying thing for the try is Duncan Williams fumbling the ball, James Coughlan missing it when he dives on the ground, Ian Keatley and Lifeimi Mafi getting caught flat footed and Will Chambers running towards the kicker rather than the area to where the ball was kicked. Had Williams simply gathered the ball and Mafi and Keatley cleared the Ulster flanker off it, no problems.

Rolland made a mistake in the build up to the try. Sadly Munster made several.

Nothing wrong with kicking the ball out but the bind is dubious. That being said any penalty should have gone Ulsters way as Archer stood up in the scrum. Indeed there isnt anything wrong with McAllister scrummaging. The replay of Pienaars try clearly shows that Archer angled in on Kyriacou without any pressure from McAllister.

Its early days though in Bothas time down there so i would think the young Munster guys will still come on in the scrum. I dare say Paddy Mac would credit Botha with a lot of his development.

Standulstermen wrote:I dare say Paddy Mac would credit Botha with a lot of his development.

Here here!!

To be honest, we give out about the Munster scrum but it is a thousand times better than our scrums in 2010 and 2011. Another while with Botha and we'll see Archer a scrum guru!!! Its an awful pity Darragh Hurley is a walking injury. He could have been a great player IMO. So so so so many injuries yet he has played Heinken Cup, Ireland 'A' and 5 years of Celtic League games. Still time for him though as he only turned 26 recently enough.

If BJ Botha has half the impact on your youngsters you will be grand. Like i mentioned before i thought he was your best players away to the scarlets and is critical for Munster. The scrum is not a weakness for Munster when BJ starts imo.

It even convinced Roman Poite

I was worried by Botha signing I thought it would be like CJ van der Linde.

I thought it would be like CJ, but BJ is more of a professional imo. He does seem to be getting a run of games without ridiculous injuries now which is great- Munster were smart not to risk him, because you need him over the next three weeks something shocking.

I mean, if he played, he may well have covered a multitude of sins in the tight five. Sure McAllister got an advantage by turning in on Archer but Archer couldn't cope with it. Botha is not so easy to do that to.

I was pleased with how we turned our scrums around at halftime. We figured out a strategy to dominate in that area and executed it very well.

Everybody was a winner when it came to the Botha deal. Munster got a guy who can impart a lot of knowledge about scrummaging and can bring on the youngsters. Ulster got a younger international tighthead who has been excellent for us. And after three years of complaining about the Irish weather and his homesickness, BJ Botha got to... eh... BJ Botha got a much bigger salary than he could command back in SA! Everybody wins.

Some observations.

We played well but lets not go over board Munster were poor.

Afoa was MOTM and I agree with that.
Terblanche was not as good as some are saying. His positioning was poor on a number of occassions. Clearly an excellent player though but as a 15.
We should play Gilroy and Trimble on the wings and it is a stright choice between D'Arcy and Terblanche for 15.

Humph was, goal kicking aside, awful in the first half.
I don't get the hype around Nagle. He was superb against Ulster last year but ever game I have seen him in since he has been mediocre.
Whitten showed the benefit of playing a natural 12 rather than a 13 at 12. He should keep his place

The Tele were right, and I was wrong, Luke Marshall has picked up an ankle injury and that is why he didn't play.

I thought Terblanche was brilliant Geoff, he was involved in nearly every meaningful Ulster attack and his interlinking and deft offloads kept numerous moves alive which would otherwise have faultered. His support play and game reading were excellent and he finished of his try very well.

Apart from being caught out of position for O'Dea's try (and D'arcy should stiff have put him into touch) I thought he had a superb game.

I'd leave D'arcy at 15 because he is playing extremely well.

The thing about O'Deas try is that it underlines the lack of faith his teammates have in iHumph defending.

Terblanche should have kept his width but if you watch the replay he comes in as if the ball goes through the hands Mafi is 1 on 1 with iHumph. Now thats no-ones fault but Terblanches and he should trust his inside defenders but in reality we hadnt the chance to hide iHumph on the wing in that play.

You are right Rodders. D'arcy did brilliantly to cover the ground but hesitated a split second when he got there. Either way i agree, Terblanche was excellent. I wouldnt drop Trimble or Gilroy for him though and i would retain D'arcy too. Terblanche can be excellent cover.

I thought Terblanche was good without being brilliant. He looked to know what he was about and just the sort of guy D'Arcy could learn from. Considering he can play in the midfield as well he is the obvious bench option.

Listening to a few uninformed fans at the game I've come to the conclusion that there is a core of local intelligentsia who will never like D'Arcy no matter how well he plays. They don't like him because they think he is:
1. Australian
2. Ex Rugby League
... says it all really.

D'Arcy has proved that he must start at 15 for Ulster IMO. He is an example of the type of game we want to play, and though he may not be as solid as other options, nobody has his flair from 15. He must start. Terblanche I think should be on the bench, or play over Gilroy who has not been hitting the heights he is capable of lately.

I have never heard the rugby league thing mentioned but i dont understand why he is disliked either. To be honest a lot of people that go to games obviously know someone who is playing AIL or something who should 'definitely' be in the team ahead of player X.

i find it baffling that there are genuinely people out there who think that Marshall is outperforming Pienaar (this was taken from a guy on the independent website). It baffles me how insular we are in that respect as opposed to embracing these players for the all-to-brief windows in which they play here.

On the point about D'arcy though i have always liked him and he has made some high profile mistakes but no more than Humph, marshall, spence, Gilroy etc. with our backline looking relatively poor this season a player like D'arcy is (imo) worth his weight in gold.

I have to say, and it could be coincidental, but I always feel we look far more potent and fluent in attack when D'arcy and Faloon play.

Pienaar is a huge factor too obviously but D'arcy instigates a lot of attacks and Faloon supports very well and keeps moves alive rather than just taking contact.

Like I say it could be a coincidence but I think we look far less one dimensional and predictable when they are on the pitch.

roddersm wrote:I have to say, and it could be coincidental, but I always feel we look far more potent and fluent in attack when D'arcy and Faloon play.

Pienaar is a huge factor too obviously but D'arcy instigates a lot of attacks and Faloon supports very well and keeps moves alive rather than just taking contact.

Like I say it could be a coincidence but I think we look far less one dimensional and predictable when they are on the pitch.

Good observation. I had always thought that when it came to Faloon, but now with D'Arcy I have seen just how much of an impact he has on the team. He has such flair every time he gets the ball. When Payne comes back, and D'Arcy is still playing well, it will be interesting to see who starts at 15.

Payne has a similar amount of flair though. He really is a fantastic player ball in hand.

Also, D'Arcy is not from Rugby League. He came up through the Waratahs academy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote: When Payne comes back, and D'Arcy is still playing well, it will be interesting to see who starts at 15.

Total no brainer - Payne is a world class player and in a different league.

Terblanche is clearly a very good player but he went narrow on a number of occassions when he shouldn't have. He was out of position for Munster's first try, he was out of position for his own try (the pass was forward because he over ran the situation but we got away with it) and just prior to Afoa's try he was in a position I would expect a top winger to score from.

Top 15, average winger

Can't say I know anything about Payne really, he looked good in his short term with Ulster, but that is honestly all I have seen of him. If he is as good as you say, I can't wait for his return!

Last summer he won a Player of the Month trophy for the Super 15 - you don't do that unless you are as good as it gets.

Admittedly this was as a 13 but, Dagg and Beale apart, I can't think of any 15 in the World I would say is noticeably better.

It's hard to describe Payne as World class as he is uncapped at that level, but he was undoubtedly a key player for the Blues.

Don't see any reason why D'Arcy couldn't become just as good a full back once he gains that level of experience.

I think if you are a stand out player in the Super 15 then World Class is something that can be considerd.

I think D'arcy is a decent player but imo will never be at the same level as Payne.

I honestly believe Ulster fans are in for a real treat in the next two years.

Heres a point. One of the best things about Payne is his versatility and centre is his best position.

If under the new IRFU NIE rules Payne has to play only fullback does that reduce his value to us a tad?

That is the most bizarre ruling and I don't think it will benefit academy players at all. If anything it restricts the opportunities for the likes of D'arcy, Gaston and Nelson if we can only play Payne at 15.

Payne wont go near the centre given we have Cave and Spence as 13's. I do think he is a better player than D'arcy but i think we will have both in many squads next season.

I think the D'arcy rugby league comes from people mixing up Manly RUFC with Manly-Warringah, or that rugby league is more popular in Manly, or maybe Manly-Warringah are a bigger club than the Union club and if you goggle Manly rugby, you get a lot of League stuff coming up.

I've always liked D'arcy, even when people on here didn't, I've always thought he's a great attacking fullback, but maybe not a great fullback, but he'll learn, and it not as if hes a bad full back. Good fullback, with great attacking skills would be it.

I think next near Payne will star most games next year, but Darcy could be a great impact sub in big games (if he can cover wing?) and will play plenty of Pro 12 games.

Some Ulster fans annoy me the way they can turn on a player, since D'ary made a few errors when he first came here people were quick to say he wasn't any good and it'll take a lot to make them change there minds, the same sort of supports were the ones that got on Pienaar back when he first came here. He played ok in his first games but wasn't the player we know now (as expected as it takes time to settle in) but some Ulster fans weren't going to give him the grace period, and some big games from him changed their minds, same as they didn't give D'acry a grace period and made up they minds he wasn't good enough within 2 games.

Im surprised that Darcy isn't more popular. They love their foreign legion up in Ulster . . . .

red_stag wrote:Im surprised that Darcy isn't more popular. They love their foreign legion up in Ulster . . . .

I agree Kingshu, I think there is a lot of double standards with certain players. Does D'arcy make mistakes? Yes.

However in attack he can be electric and his all round play isn't as bad as many make out. I think hes a really exciting player and makes a massive difference to Ulsters attack. His ability to spot gaps and counterattacking opportunities is top class imo.

roddersm wrote:Heres a point. One of the best things about Payne is his versatility and centre is his best position.

?

Where are you getting that from? He himself identifies fullback as his best position. Though he has all the goods to be a top centre.

Well he was playing centre when he won super 15 player of the month wasn't he?

Yes, but more as a way of getting he and Toeava into the same team.

Most people in NZ would say his best form came as a centre in the Super 15. In fact when the All Blacks were toying with the idea of selecting him it was as a 13 and not a 15.

Thats what I thought stand but I'm far from an expert on the guy.

Anyways the point is that if he is restricted to only playing 15 then will that be detrimental to D'arcy and Nelson?

He would describe himself as a 15 or a 13.

I don't think he can be restricted to 15 in 2013/14 as it would breech his contract which has no such restriction.

I suspect that the 3 players with a contract running into the new system - Sykes, Afoa and Payne will have to be exempt from the positional restriction for legal reasons

The plan is/was Payne, D'Arcy, Nelson in that order.

With Danielli, Terblanche not here next year and, I believe Cochrane, Gaston will get plenty of game time as winger.

Fair enough geoff. I tell you what having watched Ruddock again the other day its hard to see him hiving much of a future with Leinster.

I think he'd be a good fit for Munster or us though. Is there any prospect of getting him up here and letting Wannenburg go?

So next year our outside backs look like

Payne
D'arcy
Nelson
cochrane
trimble
Gilroy
Gaston
Spence (at a push)
whitten (at a push)

We tried last summer he said no.
We would be delighted to get him - hopefully his lack of game time might persuade him to reconsider

I am not convinced Cochrane will get a full contract next year.

He is 23 and will not, I understand, have a further extension on his development contract. He is already 2 years older than the rest (due to some bad injuries).

It may depend on whether or not someone else comes in - IQ only
Other than that I reckon you are spot on Stand

Outide backs to be a fairly well stocked area amongst the provinces. In Munster we've used:

11 Keith Earls
14 Doug Howlett
15 Felix Jones

11 Simon Zebo
14 Johne Murphy
15 Denis Hurley

11 Scott Deasy
14 Luke O'Dea
15 Sean Scanlon

Leinster have outside backs coming out their ears and Ulster seem to be well stocked there too. Even Connacht have decent enough options.

Even without Cochrane then when you consider we have Farrell, Whitten, Spence, marshall (L), Cave, Wallace, Humph, Jackson, marshall (p) and porter as our other backs it is encouraging that Pienaar will be the only NIQ in the back division.

This is why i am so worried about our current backs coaching. It is clear that 10-15 is where we are producing talent. They need to acheive their potential if we are to be properly competitive.

Just goes to show what a farce the new rules will be. Looking at Stags post there will be relatively little interest in signing NIQ wings full backs whilst we all fight over the forward NIQ's.

Whitten has really impressed when he's featured this season.

To be honest I think he still has Ireland potential and has all the attributes of a modern 12, with his natural size and power. He has decent hands and footballing ability too and theres not many Irish backs around with his skill set.

I'd love to see him paired with O'Malley in the Wolfhounds.

I'd love to see him sent to Munster because of Paddy Wallace and Luke Marshall. Whitten gets his Rep. of Ireland tax benefits, gets to play front line stuff for a better team and improves his chances internationally.

Feic off stag you can have Paddy Wallace instead...

Seeriously though if Whitten can't get game time at Ulster then I'd like to see him leave. He's too good to be turning out for the Ravens and at 23/24(?) he needs to be playing regularly.

yeah i think seeing whitten go to Munster would be ideal. A lot will depend on whether Luke Marshall can get an injury free run. with Marshall and Farrell coming through it would be too much to expect whitten to sit quietly behind them.

We could do without someone who refuses to pass. He never passes to Keith Earls as was proven in last years 6 Nations. He refused to allow Earls to score a try as he wanted the glory for himself. He isn't a team player. Wouldn't go down well in Munster.

If Cochrane goes and we don't sign Tommy then both Spence and Whitten are likely to play a fair amount of games on the wing next year.

They will effectively be the back up alongside Gaston.

Whitten has shown, to me, he should start against Leicester even if Spence is fit

Stag you missed off the as that was clearly a non serious post

red_stag wrote:We could do without someone who refuses to pass. He never passes to Keith Earls as was proven in last years 6 Nations. He refused to allow Earls to score a try as he wanted the glory for himself. He isn't a team player. Wouldn't go down well in Munster.

Yeah Earls and Wallace would be a cracking combo...can't pass, won't pass....

Actually if he hadn't got injured I've have probably liked to seen Wallace start the 6 Nations games with Cave.