Ulster vs. Munster, Ravenhill, 30th Dec 7:05pm

First topic message reminder :

Now that Leinster vs. Ulster (and all the attendant hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth) is over, we can focus on Ulster's second derby this week - Munster at Ravenhill.

Most of the team is fairly guessable - McAllister, Kyriacou, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henry, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Humphreys, Gilroy, Cave, D'Arcy, Terblanche.

Without any updates on injuries, I'm in the dark beyond that. I don't know how exactly the back-line will shape up, although I hope Whitten's in at twelve and D'Arcy's on the wing. I have no idea how the back-row will work, with Ferris at Ireland camp, Faloon and McComish injured, and Diack and the two youngsters having played already this week. If Barker's okay, maybe he'll start at five and Touhy move to six?

If Faloon, Marshall and Danielli were fit and healthy, that would get us out of a hole.

What will Munster's line-up be on Friday? Anyone want to hazard a guess? POM, Murphy, Hurley, Botha, du Preez all likely to be in the first VX? Who will be in second row? Who will play at outhalf?

Is Wallace definitely out of Leicester?

Had Wallace remained fit i agree with you Stag. i think that might scupper Caves chances as well.

I think it will too. Brining in a new face at 13 was always likely to hinge on a settled figure at 12. I suspect we'll see Darcy and Earls. Don't think it will be as bad as people fear.

He's a funny old sort Wallace isn't he. When did people make him the mascot for Marmite.

No, actually Wallace is fit enough to be in the squad for Edinburgh this week.

I see the selection decision (for Ulster in the HC obvs, not Ireland) being between Whitten and Wallace at 12 and Cave and Spence at 13. Looks like Wallace will be fit now. It's not too late for him to put in a claim for the Ireland midfield. I like Whitten at 12 though, I would rather see him at 12 than Spence.

It would be very welcome if Paddy was back in harness for Leicester.

Notch wrote:No, actually Wallace is fit enough to be in the squad for Edinburgh this week.

Where did you read that Notch.

A week ago he was able to take contact so I would be amazed.

Mind you we played Spence when not fully fit and see where that got us.
Imo if Wallace plays against Edinburgh it will be bloody stupid

Givew Whitten his chance he deserves it

He is in the exended squad named for Edinburgh. If he is dodgy they wont risk him im certain. Cant see spence making leicester either given he is still out injured and no sign of Luke Marshall either. Surprised Farrell isnt in the squad given we have only named 3 centres + terblanche and Trimble.

Ulster Rugby website Geoff. Given the lack of Farrell I think Wallace will be on the bench.

I have to say I'm surprised. Geoff, Notch, Standulsterman and Rodders - none of you batted an eyelid when I said Whitten would be playing for a better team if he joined Munster.

How do you think Ulster v Munster would do in say a European Cup semi final against each other. Who has the better team?

Whitten and Cave is a tried and tested combo so there's no reason to risk anyone else, especially with Tuilagi(*2) running at them .

To be honest I'd like to see a back row of Ferris, Faloon and Henry against the Tigers but it won't happen.

I don't really read your posts much Stag.

I think in that hypothetical game Ulster would look for long periods the better team but they would also make the most mistakes, allowing a resilient Munster to sneak home in a very tight game.

Standulstermen wrote:He is in the exended squad named for Edinburgh. If he is dodgy they wont risk him im certain

Everybody who can walks gets into the extended squad it is meaningless.
We were stupid enough to play Spence when he was dodgy, and paid for it, why not Wallace

Clearly Ulster do, Stag - but by this stage we all know there's no point expecting a Munsterman to realise that....

roddersm wrote:Whitten and Cave is a tried and tested combo so there's no reason to risk anyone else, especially with Tuilagi(*2) running at them .

To be honest I'd like to see a back row of Ferris, Faloon and Henry against the Tigers but it won't happen.

I can't endorse that. We need Wannenburg or Diack as our third jumper in the lineout. And Diack is playing like a girl right now.

You're not wrong in what you say about Faloon, it's swings and roundabouts.

Notch wrote:I don't really read your posts much Stag.

I think in that hypothetical game Ulster would look for long periods the better team but they would also make the most mistakes, allowing a resilient Munster to sneak home in a very tight game.

Sounds like what happened in the Munster v Scarlets double headers. Its a good point. Ulster have come on a long way though in 2 years. They have recruited excellently, they have a core of 3-4 top internationals and the kiddies are doing well too. A good thing to see.

red_stag wrote:How do you think Ulster v Munster would do in say a European Cup semi final against each other. Who has the better team?

Player for player our team stands up (no pun intented ) favourably. Given their experience and European pedigree though I would still have Munster as favourites. Munster are still the second best province for me but I think the gap is not what it was.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:He is in the exended squad named for Edinburgh. If he is dodgy they wont risk him im certain

Everybody who can walks gets into the extended squad it is meaningless.
We were stupid enough to play Spence when he was dodgy, and paid for it, why not Wallace

Spence did pick up a different, new injury to be fair.

I agree with Geoff re: Whitten - under-rated, and certainly on recent game performances, I'd have him ahead of Marshall. I know Luke is the Bright White Hope, but he hasn't done it yet on the pitch, as far as I can see. Although he should be allowed a chance between Humphreys and Cave.

Notch wrote:

roddersm wrote:Whitten and Cave is a tried and tested combo so there's no reason to risk anyone else, especially with Tuilagi(*2) running at them .

To be honest I'd like to see a back row of Ferris, Faloon and Henry against the Tigers but it won't happen.

I can't endorse that. We need Wannenburg or Diack as our third jumper in the lineout. And Diack is playing like a girl right now.

You're not wrong in what you say about Faloon, it's swings and roundabouts.

Surely Ferris is the 3rd jumper? Is Wannenburg that much better in the Lineout than Henry? Both are around 6'2?

I like the balance when Faloon plays and think that Henry is playing better than Wannenburg. We could always bring Pedre of the bench if the lineout was suffering or we needed another carrier.

I disagree on Diack...I can't think of many Ladies teams he'd get a game in right now.....

Notch and Rodders got it pretty much spot on. Munster just have that something that makes them better than the sum of their parts. will they still have it when POC, ROG and DOC leave. im not certain that they will or rather im not certain that it will be enough to edge tight games but there is no question they have something about them.

I dont underrate whitten at all i just think the two lads coming through might have more promise. I would argue that marshall has looked every inch the part when he has got gametime, the problem being that he is injured too much at present and hasnt got it.

I keep referring back to the Ulster v Cardiff game from last season but that was the most complete display i have seen from Ulster (and indeed our centres) in recent memory. Spence got MOTM but it could have so easily been Marshall. Sadly we havent had the chance to find out if they can replicate it.

Wanneburg has great hands in the lineout. I would keep the same HEC backrow and bring faloon on.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:

roddersm wrote:Whitten and Cave is a tried and tested combo so there's no reason to risk anyone else, especially with Tuilagi(*2) running at them .

To be honest I'd like to see a back row of Ferris, Faloon and Henry against the Tigers but it won't happen.

I can't endorse that. We need Wannenburg or Diack as our third jumper in the lineout. And Diack is playing like a girl right now.

You're not wrong in what you say about Faloon, it's swings and roundabouts.

Surely Ferris is the 3rd jumper? Is Wannenburg that much better in the Lineout than Henry? Both are around 6'2?

I like the balance when Faloon plays and think that Henry is playing better than Wannenburg. We could always bring Pedre of the bench if the lineout was suffering or we needed another carrier.

I disagree on Diack...I can't think of many Ladies teams he'd get a game in right now.....

Wannenburg is 6"5 rodders.. Henry is 6"3.

Diack another of the "foreign legion" (I use term in inverted commas). Imagiine if Ulster ever fielded Court, Kyriacou, Afoa, Tuohy, Muller, Wannenburg, Diack, Payne, Danielli, Terblanche and Darcy in the same team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Wannenburg is 6"5 rodders.. Henry is 6"3.

I stand corrected. Both have short arms though...

Aha, but Terblanche is just an injury replacement for Payne. They could never be in the same team!

I only mention Wannenburg in the lineout because he took so much quality ball for us against Leicester in Round 2 once they started marking Muller very, very tightly. My concern is that without him they could do a bit of a job on us at lineout time.

Its a fair point Notch. You will gain and lose something whoever we play out of Wannenburg v Faloon.

I just think Henry's best position is 8 or 6 and Faloon balances out the backrow but I can see what Wannenburg brings too. Henry and Ferris are both nailed on starters of course.

Too be honest if we got Ruddock up here too I don't think Kaino would get a look in....

red_stag wrote:Diack another of the "foreign legion" (I use term in inverted commas). Imagiine if Ulster ever fielded Court, Kyriacou, Afoa, Tuohy, Muller, Wannenburg, Diack, Payne, Danielli, Terblanche and Darcy in the same team.

I imagine some of the critcism aimed at us would actually be relevant then Stag

Don Alfonso wrote:I agree with Geoff re: Whitten - under-rated, and certainly on recent game performances, I'd have him ahead of Marshall. I know Luke is the Bright White Hope, but he hasn't done it yet on the pitch, as far as I can see. Although he should be allowed a chance between Humphreys and Cave.

To be fair Marshall has been injured most of the season so hasn't had the chance

Notch wrote:Aha, but Terblanche is just an injury replacement for Payne. They could never be in the same team!

I only mention Wannenburg in the lineout because he took so much quality ball for us against Leicester in Round 2 once they started marking Muller very, very tightly. My concern is that without him they could do a bit of a job on us at lineout time.

Tuohy took a lot of ball for us v Munster though which was positive. You are right though we need the alternatives to Muller

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:He is in the exended squad named for Edinburgh. If he is dodgy they wont risk him im certain

Everybody who can walks gets into the extended squad it is meaningless.
We were stupid enough to play Spence when he was dodgy, and paid for it, why not Wallace

Spence did pick up a different, new injury to be fair.

He did but when you have one injury you often, subconsciously, favour that part of the body which risks injurues elsewhere.

Also, to blow my own trumpet, I said on this board that he should not play for that very reason

Standulstermen wrote:

red_stag wrote:Diack another of the "foreign legion" (I use term in inverted commas). Imagiine if Ulster ever fielded Court, Kyriacou, Afoa, Tuohy, Muller, Wannenburg, Diack, Payne, Danielli, Terblanche and Darcy in the same team.

I imagine some of the critcism aimed at us would actually be relevant then Stag

Hey guys be fair Tuohy, Kyriacou and Declan Fitzpatrick have 1 or 2 Irish parents each.
If you claim they are foreigners so is O'Gara

And the granny rule etc will be exploited more and more with the new restrictions coming into place by the IRFU

Didn't mention Fitzpatrick. Right you are Geoff. Add him to the list

I'm only kidding, Ulster =

Whitten has been consistently good this year, fulfilling different roles when asked. That's his problem - he's a really nice guy who is living his dream of playing pro rugby and prepared to do whatever necessary just to get a game. The only difference between him and a Test class player is self-belief.

In fact other Wallace old boys Spence and Henry also have similar mentality.

red_stag wrote:I'm only kidding, Ulster =

Racist!!!

Standulstermen wrote:And the granny rule etc will be exploited more and more with the new restrictions coming into place by the IRFU

Not the only loop hole.

Here is another one I have already heard being discussed.
Go to the SH sign up some of the better teenagers and give them 3 year development contracts, with a University education thrown in and hey presto in 3 years they are Irishmen

The provinces are livid about the lack of consulation and will do what is required.

The net effect could be more non Irishmen than ever before

red_stag wrote:Diack another of the "foreign legion" (I use term in inverted commas). Imagiine if Ulster ever fielded Court, Kyriacou, Afoa, Tuohy, Muller, Wannenburg, Diack, Payne, Danielli, Terblanche and Darcy in the same team.

if they did it would be a pity Boss wasn't still here to play in that team.

Geoff,

2 things.

(1) If they do as you say and sign teenagers for 3 years then they ARE Irishmen. Surely the whole plan is to strengthen the National team, not create jobs for lads born here? If these lads qualify on residency then they can play for the National team.

(2) I really think you are pushing it to claim that Spence's ankle injury was caused by him playing with sore ribs.

Stag!

Mrs P do you really want a Ireland team where half of them talk Afrikaan - I don't. I don't want Strauss to play for Ireland, I don't want Diack to play for Ireland (although not much chance of that). Payne would be a tremendous asset - I dont want him either.

On Spence my defence if a simple one - I said as much before the match was played. Definitely not a wise after the event observation.

Geoff,

I accept your defence and I remember you saying it before the team was even announced. I do agree that playing injured can lead you to either worsen the original problem or cause a new one while trying to protect the injury I'm just not convinced it explains these particular injuries.

I do not particularily want an Irish team full of "plastic paddies" as that worm Francis has it but I'm just not sure if the IRFU will see that loop hole as a negative or a positive!

Having said that, I defy anyone to doubt the commitment to the Green jersey of Boss or Court. To me they have become Irishmen despite their place of Birth.

geoff998rugby wrote:Mrs P do you really want a Ireland team where half of them talk Afrikaan - I don't. I don't want Strauss to play for Ireland, I don't want Diack to play for Ireland (although not much chance of that). Payne would be a tremendous asset - I dont want him either.

I have to disagree Geoff, perhaps i am too liberal or not very patriotic, but for me the only stipulation would be that a player wants to and likes to live in Ireland. I'm talking about proper settling here, family life, kids at schools, friends (outside of the team). In short, if they love Ireland, they should play IMO.

What I don't understand is how some fans can't stomach the IRFU's initiative to increase the indigenous Irish options but also can't accept increased playing numbers who become qualified. So basically restrict Ireland on both fronts?

Surely someone who has lived and played in Ireland for three years, shows at least as much of a commitment to the country as someone who has maybe never set foot in Ireland but happens to have a qualifying relative.

If they qualify under the rules and are the best player available then why not play them?

The Great Aukster wrote:What I don't understand is how some fans can't stomach the IRFU's initiative to increase the indigenous Irish options but also can't accept increased playing numbers who become qualified. So basically restrict Ireland on both fronts?

Surely someone who has lived and played in Ireland for three years, shows at least as much of a commitment to the country as someone who has maybe never set foot in Ireland but happens to have a qualifying relative.

If they qualify under the rules and are the best player available then why not play them?

Players like Howlett, Nacewa, Pienaar etc. don't seem to find it too much of a hardship to play & live here. I'd doubt if there are too many players around who qualify through heritage who hadn't set foot in Ireland. There is a major difference between someone like the Easterby family brought up in England v Straus who knew he wasn't going to make it for South Africa. Wian du Preez was capped by South Africa after he arrived in Munster. I admire him wanting to play for his country, south africa even though he probably knew he wouldn't get too many caps from them, particularly if he was playing in Ireland.

To be clear I have no issue with players who move here, settle here and stay here ala Andy Ward.

What I fear is players coming here playing for Ireland for 3/4 years and then going back to their true home - whereever that may be.
I don't want players playing for Ireland because the money is better.

Basically I don't agree with 3 years as the Residency qualification - although that is another debate.

Boss and Court did, at least have genuine family connections to Ireland, however small.

That cant be said of Strauss, Diack and Payne

Andy Ward played for Ireland after being in Ireland for about 3.5 years - about the same length of time as Diack has been in Ireland.

True and thereby lies a difficulty.

Andy Ward planned to stay, from what I have heard Diack wil lbe off as soon as his contract is up, which unless he picks up his ideas will be 2014.

Of course how do you know the genuine immigrants from those only here for the money/opportunity.

Being capped or not may help them make up their mind?

From what I know, which is a long way from being complete but not without foundation, none of the following will stay in Northern Ireland regardless of what happens on the rugby field.

4 of the NIQ (Danielli is the exception), Payne, Diack, D'Arcy(probably)
Terblanche (of course).

Court is a interesting one - really not sure what he will do 50/50 I reckon

Ferris to Kaino on twiter yesterday

"u hear Afoa is scoring try's and has 2 MOM 's in the last 2 games. Also unbeaten since joining ulster lol. U fancy it chief???"

Make of that what you will.

Also hearing Paddy may well be on the bench tomorrow

geoff998rugby wrote:Ferris to Kaino on twiter yesterday

"u hear Afoa is scoring try's and has 2 MOM 's in the last 2 games. Also unbeaten since joining ulster lol. U fancy it chief???"

It looks like both Flood and Tuilagi could be missing for the Tigers against us at Ravenhill ......anyone else see a bonus point victory on the cards?.....

I wouldn't write off Tigers, although I do think we can get the bonus point provided we front up and don't give them anything to work with. We can make the next round.