Ulster vs. Munster, Ravenhill, 30th Dec 7:05pm

First topic message reminder :

Now that Leinster vs. Ulster (and all the attendant hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth) is over, we can focus on Ulster's second derby this week - Munster at Ravenhill.

Most of the team is fairly guessable - McAllister, Kyriacou, Afoa, Muller, Tuohy, Henry, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Humphreys, Gilroy, Cave, D'Arcy, Terblanche.

Without any updates on injuries, I'm in the dark beyond that. I don't know how exactly the back-line will shape up, although I hope Whitten's in at twelve and D'Arcy's on the wing. I have no idea how the back-row will work, with Ferris at Ireland camp, Faloon and McComish injured, and Diack and the two youngsters having played already this week. If Barker's okay, maybe he'll start at five and Touhy move to six?

If Faloon, Marshall and Danielli were fit and healthy, that would get us out of a hole.

What will Munster's line-up be on Friday? Anyone want to hazard a guess? POM, Murphy, Hurley, Botha, du Preez all likely to be in the first VX? Who will be in second row? Who will play at outhalf?

Notch, I watched the Leinster game again yesterday and noticed Gaston was still on at the end. Surprised then that he wasn't in the squad for this one or did he pick up an injury that hasn't been reported?

I have no idea! He seems to have fallen down the coaches estimations starting with Ian Whitten getting picked at the start of the season. I personally feel his clubmate Cochrane is a better bet.

He wasn't meant to start that game either, until Simon Danielli came down with a stomach bug. So he's down the pecking order. To be fair, he's had some chances without grasping them- just feel if he's anything its a fullback not a wing.

Sorry Rava but if you think Mclaughlin and co will get off without a mention of the squad for leinster if we lose tomorrow i think you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Its not a case of whether or not we would have one (and the average rugby punter in Ulster has delusions we are as good as leinster/munster), but a case of whether or not it was the right decision to essentially forfeit the game with the selection of front line stars who have had very little gametime this season (ie afoa, Pienaar, Terblanche and to a lesser extent muller).

Im not saying it was right or wrong and in reality it should be judged on how january goes as a whole for the team (particularly the Heineken) but i would bet my boll0cks to a barn door that should we lose there will be masses of people ready to turn on the management.

But there's no real argument if we hadn't done that we would have won against Munster. I think we will win anyway.

I think and hope we will win notch but if you look at the Facebook page i think that shows a far greater representation of Ulster fans than those on here. Some of the lunacy that is posted on there beggars belief. I also was chatting to a couple of guys who were adamant they were not renewing there season ticket next season due to the leinster selection. These were guys that have been going for over ten years. bit of an overreaction maybe but thats what you are dealing with in many cases.

I think McLaughlin spoke well enough in the passage you quoted previously regarding the fixture list and i am 100% certain when this fixture initially came out it was dated 23rd December but was changed due to TV.

Stand, there is one place I will never reside my friend and that is "cloud cuckoo land". However I did interpret your "get it in the neck" remark to mean from the management.
I am not so delusional as to expect the Ulster "fans" on this or any other forum not to comment on McLaughlin's selections for this or any other games. That is their right, in my opinion, although sometimes I despair at the comments and their tone. Seems to me McLaughlin is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't with a lot of so called fans.

Notch, you say Gaston has had some chances without grasping them. I cannot agree. He has had very limited chances actually and there were quite a few on here who wanted to see him get game time during the great Danielli/D'Arcy debate. You could of course be right about his better position but when he did get some time on the wing last year he did reasonably well.

Actually if you look again at Mondays game, I think Gaston was better all round than Cochrane. Certainly defensively he was. He made a lot of tackles.

Rava

I would agree with most if not all of that. Im not certain McLaughlin is a head coach but i do agree he deserves this season to see how we do and a lot depends on who else is out there/who is affordable. My (well documented) gripe is with our backs coaching which i think is stale.

Agree on Gaston. i thought cochrane was relatively poor and but for the try, which he took beautifully by the way, he would have been considered awol.

Gaston looked a prospect to me against the Dragons last year. Burst the line and gave the ball to Cave for our clinching try (before the ultra clinching dropgoal). That being said i have encountered nuemrous Dungannon men who assure me that cochrane is the pick of their young backs.

There is that much talent though it is hard to see where it will all fit together.

Standulstermen wrote:Rava

I would agree with most if not all of that. Im not certain McLaughlin is a head coach but i do agree he deserves this season to see how we do and a lot depends on who else is out there/who is affordable. My (well documented) gripe is with our backs coaching which i think is stale.

Totally agree on both these statements.

I've supported the reign of McLaughlin, but in my ideal world at the end of his contract he would be given a contract as head of the Ulster Academy and Player Development with two sub-clauses; 1) He be available to act as caretaker Head Coach in event of emergency and 2) He has the job for as long as he wants it.

There's no version of Ulster Rugby that isn't stronger with him helping our young players come through and even though he can only go so far as a head coach at the top table, he's too valuable to lose to the organisation entirely.

Standulstermen wrote:I think and hope we will win notch but if you look at the Facebook page i think that shows a far greater representation of Ulster fans than those on here. Some of the lunacy that is posted on there beggars belief. I also was chatting to a couple of guys who were adamant they were not renewing there season ticket next season due to the leinster selection. These were guys that have been going for over ten years. bit of an overreaction maybe but thats what you are dealing with in many cases.

I think McLaughlin spoke well enough in the passage you quoted previously regarding the fixture list and i am 100% certain when this fixture initially came out it was dated 23rd December but was changed due to TV.

Have you not learnt that almost all of the fanbase are moany eejits who think we're one of the top teams in Europe without ever having to try (or, you know, win something), vastly overrate every player with an Ulster accent and think the only thing holding the team back are the coaches- who, by the way, have forgotten more about rugby than they will ever know?

Because now would be a good time to internalise that

Rava wrote:Actually if you look again at Mondays game, I think Gaston was better all round than Cochrane. Certainly defensively he was. He made a lot of tackles.

Yeah I definitely think Gaston had a better game than his peer and is right now a better player. I just think Cochrane has more potential. And indeed he has fallen behind him in the Ravens pecking order because Cochrane can really hurt teams.

I don't know if the seriosu problems in Cochrane's game can be ironed out. But if they could, he could go the furthest of the two. I don't necessarily think either of them will go that far- now I think that kid could go far.

I kow all that notch but i would add another thing that most them think our NIQ's (no matter how good they are) are merely holding back better youngsters, world cups or no.

the fact that the majority of them are idiots means they are still in a majority. Which was my point re the management getting it in the neck.
Like it or not these people spending their cash is the only way to help Ulster grow.

I like your suggestion re McLaughlin by the way.

Yep. Sure if it wasn't for Muller Caldwell would have continued his natural development into an all-time Ulster rug... hmm. Well at least we would be more successful, I mean it's not like we couldn't get into playoff games befor... hmm.

But don't worry! The internets magnify the stupid, not the other way around. There are plenty of Ulster fans who are smart and knowledgable out there. Course the majority of pretty much any sporting teams fanbase anywhere, ever consists of armchair coaches who only turn up more than once or twice a season if the teams on a winning streak but thats just a fact of life.

The important thing is that we get on a winning streak; then we're laughing all the way to the bank baby. And it all starts tomorrow night

Rava wrote:Two things.
First thing this is the strongest possible team we can put out against Munster given the Irish Training call-ups and injuries. If we don't win it will be because we are not good enough and nothing to do with two squads being picked for the two provincial games therefore I cannot see how McLaughlin & Co. will get it in the neck (Stand)? Unless of course you are assuming this team would have won in Dublin on Monday

I think there was every chance we could have won against Leinster, or at least got a bonus point if we'd had a stronger bench. McGlauglin can blame the fixture list all he likes but there is no reason he couldn't have put some experienced heads in there too. He sent down a team to lose but at 21-13 the game was still winnable. George Hook thought the same and he is always right .

If we get nothing from the Munster game then McGlaughlins descision to send such a weakened squad out against Leinster deserves to be scrutinised. Hopefully though we'll get the win and all come on here to praise him for making the right call, but he's certainly put the pressure on for this one.

The reality is that if you change the team you not only (potentially) change the leinster team but also the mindset, tactics possibly etc so it is impossible to tell.

The decision to rest those guys needs to be judged after our heineken pool is over aswell. We have a more or less first string this weekend (minus the Internationals) then we will most likely have everyone in for edinburgh to get up to speed before the leicester game. then two full strength heineken games which takes us into the 6N. everything needs to be judged after this month regarding that game. If we crash out of europe and lose a couple more in the league then it will have been a waste. If not it could well be considered shrewd.

Im pleased McLaughlin came out and had a go at the fixture list (or RTE as it were). It needed said and he said it. No point in having a coach who just takes the crap dished out to them. Only ourselves and Connacht are massively disadvantaged by having to play the best two teams in the league back to back.

Rava wrote:Actually if you look again at Mondays game, I think Gaston was better all round than Cochrane. Certainly defensively he was. He made a lot of tackles.

I have looked again at Monday's game again and it must be a different one to everyone else. Cochrane had a really good game and comfortably outplayed, out-paced and out-tackled Gaston. The stats man must also have been watching my version as Cochrane is recorded as making 5 tackles and missing one, where Gaston made 3 and missed 2.

Lads yee can all relax because there is no way on earth that I can see munster getting anything from this game. It's the weakest backrow I have seen Munster play in years! If anything I feel a little cheated that yee threw the Leinster match to focus on beating us!

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rava wrote:Actually if you look again at Mondays game, I think Gaston was better all round than Cochrane. Certainly defensively he was. He made a lot of tackles.

I have looked again at Monday's game again and it must be a different one to everyone else. Cochrane had a really good game and comfortably outplayed, out-paced and out-tackled Gaston. The stats man must also have been watching my version as Cochrane is recorded as making 5 tackles and missing one, where Gaston made 3 and missed 2.

Aukster, the stats on scrum (if thats what you are using) are very often way off. I would usually make a note if quoting them as they are notoriously bad. I thought Gaston looked much busier all round than Cochrane who like i say (imo) wouldnt have been in credit but for the try. As i have said though there are plenty of Gannon men that i speak to who assure me that Cochrane is by far their best prospect and in fairness he finished his try beautifully.

For what its worth I thought Cochrane had a very poor game bar his try, which was excellent. His running lines were generally poor and he was caught out badly for at least one of Leinsters tries. His try showed he has a lot of potential though but needs gametime by the looks of it.

Can't recall much that Gaston did of note though.

Cochrane definitely missed more than one tackle in that match.. and his running lines were poor, especially when Marshall looked to draw in the defender and pass it outside to Cochrane, who decided to cut inside for some reason. His try was outstanding though.

Have to agree with what has been said earlier, Gaston would probably be suited to fullback more than wing.

BlueMuff wrote:Lads yee can all relax because there is no way on earth that I can see munster getting anything from this game. It's the weakest backrow I have seen Munster play in years! If anything I feel a little cheated that yee threw the Leinster match to focus on beating us!

Fairly accurate assessment. Will be all about performance from the young uns and trying to stop Ulster getting a bonus point. Still Butler and O'Callaghan are two to watch as are Nagle, archer etc. Not sure about Gkeeson at of, would have preferred chambers and also deasy at oh as I thought keatley was complete pants against connacht

DOD wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Lads yee can all relax because there is no way on earth that I can see munster getting anything from this game. It's the weakest backrow I have seen Munster play in years! If anything I feel a little cheated that yee threw the Leinster match to focus on beating us!

Fairly accurate assessment. Will be all about performance from the young uns and trying to stop Ulster getting a bonus point. Still Butler and O'Callaghan are two to watch as are Nagle, archer etc. Not sure about Gkeeson at of, would have preferred chambers and also deasy at oh as I thought keatley was complete pants against connacht

Keatley was awful on Monday. Missed 3 kicks, missed touch from penalty and general decision making was poor.

Glad to see Nagle start would have thought he would have started more games this year. Maybe he didnt recover from injury as planned.

If anyone has a link to the bbc web coverage I would greatly appreciate them posting it! I can never find it on the beeb sports pages.

Up and under after up and under after up and under.....

Ulster 20 - 10 Munster (HT)

Stefan Terblanche and John Afoa both getting their first tries - Afoa having another great game all round as well, looks like a fantastic buy.

Try after try after try you mean Artful ;-)
much better last 20 mins from Ulster D'arcy looking very good again

Shocking decision by Mick O'Driscoll to go for the scrum just outside his own 22 - why not pressure Ulster in the lineout in their 22.

Very poor.

This is just embarrassing stuff. All Ulster points coming from humiliating Munster mistakes.

Pity Munster couldn't put out a stronger team as we are just giving try's to Ulster. An Alan quiinlan and we could win.

It's like watching an under 12's

John Afoa ripping the Munster scrum to shreds - thats two Ulster trys from Munster put ins.

4 mistakes and four try's. Well done Ulster but cork con minor c's would beat this lot.

McGahon?

This is an awesome display by ulster. Humphreys, pieenar, tuohy, afoa, Darcy all playing out of their skins!

Munster need a backs/skills/attack coach....badly

Pete there is nothing awesome about Ulster. Doing basic well in fairness.

Munster are just absolutely terrible. Clueless. All tries for embarassing Munster mistakes.

No they werent BlueMuff in fact the only mistake was the missed tackle on Afoa for his try.

Ulster's front row destroying the Munster front row for the course of 80 minutes and getting two trys from it is not 'Munster mistakes'

Terblanche's try was also a very well executed counter attack from turn over ball.

Maybe you could point out all thess mistakes that have gifted Ulster trys cause I cant see them

Can't believe he left keatley on. If Ulster supporters want to think they are a great team let them. They haven't had to do anything for their tries. Haven't seen that poor a Munster team in quite a while

Very sour grapes from you two guys - disappointing.

Artful_Dodger wrote:No they werent BlueMuff in fact the only mistake was the missed tackle on Afoa for his try.

Ulster's front row destroying the Munster front row for the course of 80 minutes and getting two trys from it is not 'Munster mistakes'

Terblanche's try was also a very well executed counter attack from turn over ball.

Maybe you could point out all thess mistakes that have gifted Ulster trys cause I cant see them

In fairness there were more than a few forward passes in the build up to some of the tries.

Tol is absolute muck, embarrassing how bad is passing is.

Besides that penalty, I've been very impressed by Docv2 and can see why we offered him a contract to come north, pity he turned it down.

Ulster scrum-very destructive
Recognising space-very effective
Running lines and decoy runners-excellent
Counterattacking-excellent
Recognising space-excellent
Taking their chances-excellent

Just because this Isnt a good munster performance/team doesnt mean it's a poor ulster team/performance. They can only play what is infront of them.

O'Leary is sooo bad.
Passing and speed of service is awful.

Ulster try and run the ball out of their own 22 when 25 points up - ridiculous.

Ah Artful cop on with the childish silliness. No need for it

1. First try Hurley spills ball in contact in open mid field with the whole Munster team running foward - easy try.

2 Cant remember second try maybe you might give me your interpretation

3. Munster get free kick. Simple percentage play is to take tap and go. Instead go for a scrum deep in our half and made a mess of it/

4. Munster scrum got mullered but wheres the defense.


Ulster scrum dominated in the second half no question.

Munster mistakes in the whole game must be in double figures.

If you think that was a great Ulster performance then fair play. No doubt Ulster were absolute convincing deserving winners.

Val tol is far better than Williams. Don't be so obvious and Dave O'Callaghan has been very poor, out of position, poor tackling and generally behind play. Holland should have started.

BlueMuff wrote:Ah Artful cop on with the childish silliness. No need for it

1. First try Hurley spills ball in contact in open mid field with the whole Munster team running foward - easy try.

2 Cant remember second try maybe you might give me your interpretation

3. Munster get free kick. Simple percentage play is to take tap and go. Instead go for a scrum deep in our half and made a mess of it/

4. Munster scrum got mullered but wheres the defense.


Ulster scrum dominated in the second half no question.

Munster mistakes in the whole game must be in double figures.

If you think that was a great Ulster performance then fair play. No doubt Ulster were absolute convincing deserving winners.

Excuse me?

Childish silliness?? Copy and paste the childish or silly comments I posted please - you and DOD are coming across as very poor losers thats all mate.

The same fixture last season and Munster lived off Ulster errors and so won the match.

Can't have it both ways lads.

Artful Your accusing us of sour grapes. Lets just stick to the analysis shall we. I have already said Ulster were convicning winners. What else are you looking for. My view of the game is that Ulster were clinical off Munster mistakes but nothing special.

Keatley was absolutely shocking. His worst display yet. Nagle very dissappointing.

Williams was brutal. A complete shocker.

Only positive for Munster was o'Dea is progressing nicely.

Blue your coming across very sour IMO especially for someone who had predicted a scoreline as such. Ulster will need to take this victory within context - this was a simply apalling Munster selection and never likely to win - however you can only beat whats in front of you and they did well.

I've seen Munster force teams into mistakes Bluemuff. Sadly Ulster did it to us tonight.

BlueMuff wrote:Ah Artful cop on with the childish silliness. No need for it

1. First try Hurley spills ball in contact in open mid field with the whole Munster team running foward - easy try.
2 Cant remember second try maybe you might give me your interpretation
3. Munster get free kick. Simple percentage play is to take tap and go. Instead go for a scrum deep in our half and made a mess of it/
4. Munster scrum got mullered

If you think that was a great Ulster performance then fair play. No doubt Ulster were absolute convincing deserving winners.

The ulster try's weren't walk ins. They won turnovers due to hard tackling and work at the breakdown as well as munster mistakes. The ulster hands and vision were excellent I thought and to say they weren't would be completely unfair.

Highlights for me were John Afoa's performance - if Munster had BJ Botha playing it would been a brilliant battle in the scrum.

Aside from that Pienaar had a great game, my main concern is as always Ian Humphreys - I worry about him against Tigers and hope Pienaar takes most of the kicks against them.

I'd have given MOTM to Willie Faloon.

Artful..ulster were well worth the win. We are purely looking at this from a Munster perspective. If you think Ulster are world beaters fair play that's up to yourself.

Deasy should be Munster second oh keatley is clueless. I used be a big fan of Williams but stringer would be a better sh when he is 50. Gleeson kept the defensive line when he was on and Tommy O'Donnell looked useful. MOD looked tired, time to go. Denis Hurley just ruined a great start to the season. O'Dea is looking like another Dowling bit better. Varley was crap as well, we need mike sherry back.