another concerning issue for the WRU over Steven shingler

First topic message reminder :


All, I've split a lot of the Shingler debate off the Scottish squad thread and merged it into this one. Unfortunately the board software puts the oldest post as the thread OP, so welsh-matfield's original OP is buried a ways down now. Hence I've quoted his OP post below:

welsh-matfield wrote:
another concerning issue for the WRU over Steven shingler
by welsh-matfield Yesterday at 15:18


Over the past six months Wales have lost three young players under the age of 22 to Ireland and Scotland respectively with James loxton, Matthew Jarvis and now Steven Shingler pledging there international loyaltly elsewhere. why it was only a couple of months ago steven shingler was stating his desire to break into the welsh squad http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15773032.stm. this is a concerning issue, especially as wales pool of depth is often so small and although the acadamies are thriving other nations seem to be taking advantage of this fact

Below here is my original post on the Scottish squad thread

rugbydreamer wrote:He played for the U20's Wales team in the 6N's last year. Now I always get confused with Welsh Qualification, but doesn't that mean he's WQ and can't play for anyone else?

Does anyone know if Wales are still designating the U20s as their "A" side?

Actually, from memory after the Connacht pair's eligilbity debate last year, wan't it decided that "A" games had to be against other country's "A" or full international side to count? I could be totally wrong though

If those guys are as bad as that Ruddock fella you offloaded onto us then I wouldn't worry too much about it.....

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Well, that's a bonus, mckay - not sure that Brendan Laney had ever heard of the place when he got the call!!

I'm not sure if Chainsaw had heard of anywhere North of Christchurch when he got the call

Did they not also have an "A" Team at the 2009 IRB Nations Cup?

It's still debatable whether he had heard of rugby

A ha. SCOTLAND HAVEN'T BOOBED AFTER ALL!

Sorry.

ahem.

If it started on 1 January 2000 then the last 4 year period would have been 1 January 2008 - 31 dec 2011. So if they had an A team in 2008 then it's probable that it was still their designated second senior team up until last weekend, even if they haven't played since 2010.

Just wondering if Scott Johnson had a hand in this?....

Glas a du wrote:A ha. SCOTLAND HAVEN'T BOOBED AFTER ALL!

Sorry.

ahem.

Have you been wumming, you naughty devil?!

Had now idea Shingler was eligible

Pat_Mustard wrote:If it started on 1 January 2000 then the last 4 year period would have been 1 January 2008 - 31 dec 2011. So if they had an A team in 2008 then it's probable that it was still their designated second senior team up until last weekend, even if they haven't played since 2010.

I maybe wrong, but I read into that statement that their "A" will be said team until they no longer want it to be and advise the IRB, then comes the "sort of 4 year cooling off period"...... so ththe Next rep team for the French will not be the U20 until 2014ish or am just reading it all wrong?

Scotland the filthy poachers.

TheDukeofCool wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:If it started on 1 January 2000 then the last 4 year period would have been 1 January 2008 - 31 dec 2011. So if they had an A team in 2008 then it's probable that it was still their designated second senior team up until last weekend, even if they haven't played since 2010.

I maybe wrong, but I read into that statement that their "A" will be said team until they no longer want it to be and advise the IRB, then comes the "sort of 4 year cooling off period"...... so ththe Next rep team for the French will not be the U20 until 2014ish or am just reading it all wrong?

That's possible, it's not very clear. I think it means that once the nomination was made on 1 January 2000, then it couldn't be changed for 4 years. I'm just assuming that it would then repeat, so they would have to make another nomination on 1 January 2004 which would last for 4 years again, and so on. But maybe not.

Pat_Mustard wrote:

TheDukeofCool wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:If it started on 1 January 2000 then the last 4 year period would have been 1 January 2008 - 31 dec 2011. So if they had an A team in 2008 then it's probable that it was still their designated second senior team up until last weekend, even if they haven't played since 2010.

I maybe wrong, but I read into that statement that their "A" will be said team until they no longer want it to be and advise the IRB, then comes the "sort of 4 year cooling off period"...... so ththe Next rep team for the French will not be the U20 until 2014ish or am just reading it all wrong?

That's possible, it's not very clear. I think it means that once the nomination was made on 1 January 2000, then it couldn't be changed for 4 years. I'm just assuming that it would then repeat, so they would have to make another nomination on 1 January 2004 which would last for 4 years again, and so on. But maybe not.

Pat, the more i read it, the more I think you are right..... Damm laywers speak! Either way, it should mean that Shingler is eligible... you would hope! ;-)

TheDukeofCool wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:

TheDukeofCool wrote:

Pat_Mustard wrote:If it started on 1 January 2000 then the last 4 year period would have been 1 January 2008 - 31 dec 2011. So if they had an A team in 2008 then it's probable that it was still their designated second senior team up until last weekend, even if they haven't played since 2010.

I maybe wrong, but I read into that statement that their "A" will be said team until they no longer want it to be and advise the IRB, then comes the "sort of 4 year cooling off period"...... so ththe Next rep team for the French will not be the U20 until 2014ish or am just reading it all wrong?

That's possible, it's not very clear. I think it means that once the nomination was made on 1 January 2000, then it couldn't be changed for 4 years. I'm just assuming that it would then repeat, so they would have to make another nomination on 1 January 2004 which would last for 4 years again, and so on. But maybe not.

Pat, the more i read it, the more I think you are right..... Damm laywers speak! Either way, it should mean that Shingler is eligible... you would hope! ;-)

yeah, otherwise it'll be an embarrassing u-turn from a red-faced Mr Robinson tomorrow when he realises what's happened. That or a minimum fine of £100,000 if he doesn't realise.

by the way, this is all coming from here: http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/02/02/66/59/irbregulationsrelatingtothegameeng.pdf

a rich source of fascinating information for geeks and procrastinators alike!

I'm gutted about this as thought Steven had a lot of potential and like you say in a few years could be a very good player, am glad we've got Aaron but wouldn't like to say which one's better as their both good

WOW, 2 pages discussing whether Shingler is eligible to play or not. Let’s get back to the topic in hand. I understand why Robbo picked the players from the WC, with them being very familiar with each other, but that doesn’t mean they are the right choices. The inclusion of Danielli, Parks, Lawson and Morrison among the backs show that he has again picked these players on reputation rather than form. We are not going to make an impact on the 6N if we stay with the old guard.

Aaron is more valuable to us at the moment, back 5 forward and with AWJ and Charteris out of the 6N plus the injury track record Ian Evans has he could become pretty useful.
Steven probably saw Priestland, Morgan, Biggar and maybe Tovey ahead of him and thought he'd be better off picking up caps for Scotland. I doubt he would have saw any action at 12 with us either.

Shingler has a Scottish mother but played for Wales Under-20s.

Wales challenge Steven Shingler's Scotland call-up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16419741.stm

i think wru might be being a bit tight. if the lad can get a scotland cap then he should be alowed to go for it. i dont think a jnr cap means you are stuck with that union

It does in Wales though, dogtooth, because we don't have an A team.

Here we go... I had wondered how long it would take! http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16419741.stm

rugbydreamer wrote:It does in Wales though, dogtooth, because we don't have an A team.

you have a point. but still, if the lad hasnt got a cap then he can play for who he likes. maybe we should have that a' team

THe issue is him playing against France at the U20's as that is their 2nd team as well, so being capped in that game meant he can only play for Wales.

Not sure to be honest. All a bit confusing!

Yeah apparently the WRU have officialy challenged this saying that he had been informed he was tied to Wales if he played in the France Wales U20s game as it was listed as an A international.

Howarth the flip could the SRU be this stupid.

Shinglers right to play for Scotland has been challenged by the WRU on the grounds the France Wales U20 game he played in was an A international.

Whoops.

I know this is going to sound a bit nasty, but I don't care about Steven Shingler, it rankles me that young Welsh lads are being targeted by Ireland, Loxton, Jarvis, the Ruddock brothers, they also made an approach to Tom Prydie.

But.. Scotland nicking 1 player who Wales frankly don't need is not bothering me too much, they have terrible depth and need every half decent player they can get.

Wales have 26 year old Hook,
23 year old Priestland,
22 year old Biggar,
19 year old Matthew Morgan,
22 year old Tovey, and
21 year old Steffan Jones, not to mention old heads like
Stephen Jones,
Gavin Henson and
Nicky Robinson fighting it out at fly half.

Do we really need to have a pop at Scotland for taking this player? Which frankly Wales don't need anyway!
Shingler is far better than Dan Parks and probably better than Scotlands young fly Halves, so let him go, hopefully he can drag Scotland out of the doldrums.

Wales produce a silly amount of talented backs, as long as we don;t lose any "worthwhile" forwards I don't really mind.

Only what a fair few of us have been saying all day biscuit!

Depends on waht France have to say, they were unclear on it before when we had the issue with Jarvis and the other one moving to Ireland for the start of the season.

its not clear at all. i think the wru think they have a solid case. it really doesnt seem at all fair on shingler.

AlynDavies wrote:

But.. Scotland nicking 1 player who Wales frankly don't need is not bothering me too much, they have terrible depth and need every half decent player they can get.

harsh

as for the ruddock boys, they didnt want anything to do with the wru after all that nonsense in 06

We’ve established that France had both an A team and an U-20s team in 2010. If you have an A team can you designate your U-20 team as the 2nd XV? I suppose it wouldn’t matter but what would be the point in having the A team then? With the IRB rules that you can only change you’re nominated 2nd XV team every 4 years, France would have had to do that in 2008.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16419741.stm

Shingler would fit the Lions ethos well, a Scottish international born & raised in Wales, playing in England for London Irish.

Did France have an A team in 2008?

If they just had the U20's taht would have been their selected taem for the 4 years, wouldn't matter if the A team was brought in then later in 2010/

dogtooth wrote:its not clear at all. i think the wru think they have a solid case. it really doesnt seem at all fair on shingler.

I don't think Wales will win because Loxton and Jarvis played against France U20, however they got off being tied to Wales as the WRU had a duty to get in writing the players were tieing themselves to Wales by playing against France U20, the WRU didn't do this.

The Loxton and Jarvis eligibility row erupted in June 2011, and Shingler played full back against France in the U20 games in March, so it's likely the WRU were again negligent in making sure the players were aware a game against France would make them eligible for any other country.

According to the WRU statement all the players were told when they were selected for that game that it would tie them to Welsh qualification. Either they or the SRU have royally screwed up it seems.

AlynDavies wrote:I know this is going to sound a bit nasty, but I don't care about Steven Shingler, it rankles me that young Welsh lads are being targeted by Ireland, Loxton, Jarvis, the Ruddock brothers, they also made an approach to Tom Prydie.

But.. Scotland nicking 1 player who Wales frankly don't need is not bothering me too much, they have terrible depth and need every half decent player they can get.

Wales have 26 year old Hook,
23 year old Priestland,
22 year old Biggar,
19 year old Matthew Morgan,
22 year old Tovey, and
21 year old Steffan Jones, not to mention old heads like
Stephen Jones,
Gavin Henson and
Nicky Robinson fighting it out at fly half.

Do we really need to have a pop at Scotland for taking this player? Which frankly Wales don't need anyway!
Shingler is far better than Dan Parks and probably better than Scotlands young fly Halves, so let him go, hopefully he can drag Scotland out of the doldrums.

Wales produce a silly amount of talented backs, as long as we don;t lose any "worthwhile" forwards I don't really mind.

It doesn't matter if we want him or not - we need to make a stand and set a precedent - we are the smallest of the Six Nations and need to stop bigger nations offering caps to our youth who we've invested time and money in.

wouldn't surprise me if it was both!

Rules regarding eligibility are there for a reason and they need to be clarified.
A player should not need to be told these things it's up to them to read the rules or simply just ask if they are then committed to the Welsh shirt if they are selected for the U20s.
There is no excuse for a 18+ year old not knowing if he has nailed his colours to the mast or not.

munkian wrote:It doesn't matter if we want him or not - we need to make a stand and set a precedent - we are the smallest of the Six Nations and need to stop bigger nations offering caps to our youth who we've invested time and money in.

We live in a very cosmopolitan world now, and players with multi national qualifications are pretty much the norm now, I agree that this kind of poaching is a bit dodgy, and Irelands policy of pretty much trying to tie down anyone in the Welsh system who is duel qualified is sickening but that's life.
They have done it since Saint Patrick, they tried it in 1996 with promising Neath half backs Matthew McCarthy and Patrick Horgan and they still do it today!

munkian wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:I know this is going to sound a bit nasty, but I don't care about Steven Shingler, it rankles me that young Welsh lads are being targeted by Ireland, Loxton, Jarvis, the Ruddock brothers, they also made an approach to Tom Prydie.

But.. Scotland nicking 1 player who Wales frankly don't need is not bothering me too much, they have terrible depth and need every half decent player they can get.

Wales have 26 year old Hook,
23 year old Priestland,
22 year old Biggar,
19 year old Matthew Morgan,
22 year old Tovey, and
21 year old Steffan Jones, not to mention old heads like
Stephen Jones,
Gavin Henson and
Nicky Robinson fighting it out at fly half.

Do we really need to have a pop at Scotland for taking this player? Which frankly Wales don't need anyway!
Shingler is far better than Dan Parks and probably better than Scotlands young fly Halves, so let him go, hopefully he can drag Scotland out of the doldrums.

Wales produce a silly amount of talented backs, as long as we don;t lose any "worthwhile" forwards I don't really mind.

It doesn't matter if we want him or not - we need to make a stand and set a precedent - we are the smallest of the Six Nations and need to stop bigger nations offering caps to our youth who we've invested time and money in.

I agree with Munkian here but I'd go a step further and point out that this is out of Wales' hands. It's not
Wales being petty but an IRB law/directive. Neither Wales not Scotland can bend the residency rules just because either we need a player or they do. If the IRB rules state that you have to name your first and second representative teams, plus your 7s team, and some countries nominate their U20s, then we have to obey the IRB law and what it means if you represent the nations 2nd team.

This will become another 'Wales being bast*rds' thread again when it is the IRB who will decide and ultimately uphold or break their own laws, not Wales.

either i am too kind or you are a bunch of grump old ba5tards.

i agree, it should be very clear cut and there should be no room for misunderstanding. just like the game itself

Griff wrote:Neither Wales not Scotland can bend the residency rules just because either we need a player or they do.

You did know David Hilton qualified to play for Scotland and got 41 caps thanks to his Scottish born grand father who was born in Bristol.

Bret Sinkinson also qualified for Wales thanks to his Welsh born Grand father who was born in Oldham.

IRB rules... really?

SRU statement

Thursday, 05 January 2012 Scottish Rugby complies with International Rugby Board regulations and guidelines regarding the status of potentially Scotland qualified players. Today we have named Steven Shingler in our squad for the opening two matches of the 2012 RBS 6 Nations Championship. Steven’s mother was born in Dumfries and although he played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 last season, Steven has confirmed to Scottish Rugby that he declined to sign a declaration from the WRU that he was committed solely to representing Wales at senior level. Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales. Scottish Rugby believes we have acted in good faith in this matter and have also taken cognisance of an IRB ruling last year concerning two players who played for Wales under-20 against France under-20 in 2010 who now play for Connacht and are eligible for Ireland. We are liaising with the IRB on this matter.

Why not show the WRU the courtesy of a little phone call and liaising with the IRB BEFORE making their announcement.

Forms signed, who cares.

AlynDavies wrote:

Griff wrote:Neither Wales not Scotland can bend the residency rules just because either we need a player or they do.

You did know David Hilton qualified to play for Scotland and got 41 caps thanks to his Scottish born grand father who was born in Bristol.

Bret Sinkinson also qualified for Wales thanks to his Welsh born Grand father who was born in Oldham.

IRB rules... really?

Which is exactly why they've now tightened up on the rules. We can't suddenly bend the rules because Scotland may or may not need to develop in certain positions (incidentally Scotland ate looking pretty good in the 10 position if you ask me).

If this was Samoa, for example, and they didn't have an A team so used U20s as there 2nd team (this may actually be true) them we'd all be up in arms if one of their U20s was poached by NZ. And rightly so as this is why this law was written, I.e. to stop the player drain. What's the difference here.

Griff wrote:Which is exactly why they've now tightened up on the rules. We can't suddenly bend the rules because Scotland may or may not need to develop in certain positions (incidentally Scotland ate looking pretty good in the 10 position if you ask me).

If this was Samoa, for example, and they didn't have an A team so used U20s as there 2nd team (this may actually be true) them we'd all be up in arms if one of their U20s was poached by NZ. And rightly so as this is why this law was written, I.e. to stop the player drain. What's the difference here.

The actual point I made was the WRU has Wales U20 are Wales designated second team, however it was revealed in June 2011 that they hadnt made sure that players who played for them had been made aware that to play for them against France would nail them down to Welsh representation ONLy, in the future.
That is how Loxton and Jarvis were deemed to be still eligible for Ireland, as Shingler played for Wales in March, 3 months prior to the the Irish / Welsh row breaking out, then it could be assumed the WRU made the same mistake in Shinglers case.

Only time will tell.

Samoa A play in the IRB Pacific Rugby Cup with Fiji Warriors (Their A team), and Tonga A, they also play against some Super 15 second teams. Ryhs Llewellyn played for Crusader Knights, the Canterbury Crusaders academy side against them.

I reckon the WRU would have pushed this through even if the SRU had discussions with them just to be pests.

If I had the opportunity of wearing the Welsh shirt no bu$$er would get it off me.
And if somebody put a form in front of me asking me to commit myself to the senior side I would wonder why I would even need to be asked.

"Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales."

How is he qualified for England aswell then?

Morgannwg wrote:"Steven has informed us that he made it clear that he wished to leave open his international eligibility as he was also eligible to represent Scotland and England as well as Wales."

How is he qualified for England aswell then?

I seem to rememeber reading him being born England, but according to Wiki that i not true.

His brother was born in England