another concerning issue for the WRU over Steven shingler

First topic message reminder :


All, I've split a lot of the Shingler debate off the Scottish squad thread and merged it into this one. Unfortunately the board software puts the oldest post as the thread OP, so welsh-matfield's original OP is buried a ways down now. Hence I've quoted his OP post below:

welsh-matfield wrote:
another concerning issue for the WRU over Steven shingler
by welsh-matfield Yesterday at 15:18


Over the past six months Wales have lost three young players under the age of 22 to Ireland and Scotland respectively with James loxton, Matthew Jarvis and now Steven Shingler pledging there international loyaltly elsewhere. why it was only a couple of months ago steven shingler was stating his desire to break into the welsh squad http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15773032.stm. this is a concerning issue, especially as wales pool of depth is often so small and although the acadamies are thriving other nations seem to be taking advantage of this fact

Below here is my original post on the Scottish squad thread

rugbydreamer wrote:He played for the U20's Wales team in the 6N's last year. Now I always get confused with Welsh Qualification, but doesn't that mean he's WQ and can't play for anyone else?

Does anyone know if Wales are still designating the U20s as their "A" side?

Actually, from memory after the Connacht pair's eligilbity debate last year, wan't it decided that "A" games had to be against other country's "A" or full international side to count? I could be totally wrong though

Morgannwg

to be honest I am not bothered if Shingler plays for Scotland or not, I think we actually have far better prospects coming through the scottish system.
If you had read the whole discussion you'd maybe see that it is about having a set of rules that are equal to every nation and not the chopping and changing that seems to be going on!!

gowales wrote:Ok hear is another situation people. Does anyone remember Rhys Llewelyn, the Welsh lad who played for NZ U20's because his family moved there.
Should he be able to come back and represent Wales.
Or do some of those who feel that players should stay in the countries they are 'developed' in not think so.
It'll be interesting to see what happens in the future with him.

Well, he moved over at 15-16 so obviously did a lot of his rugby development here. Especially seeing as he was a Brynteg School product. He is lucky to have the choice of two, and that's what it would be, his choice.

Majestic83 wrote:
to be honest I am not bothered if Shingler plays for Scotland or not, I think we actually have far better prospects coming through the scottish system.
If you had read the whole discussion you'd maybe see that it is about having a set of rules that are equal to every nation and not the chopping and changing that seems to be going on!!

Really? If you have a 20 year old better than Shingler in the backline then I and others are yet to see him.

I have read the discussion and it was clear there are some flaws in the IRB ruling, as it was clear from the last dispute (Loxton and ANother). Repeating it over and over isn't going to make a difference. All we can do now is see how the IRB resolve this issue and if they actually will change their ruling from here on.

But if the U20 rule applied to NZ as well, don't you think it would be wrong.

Yep indeed for once Scotland do have a wealth of talent coming through at 10 and 12. Matt Scott who has been playing regularly for Edinburgh and playing very well would have been in the scotland team at the 6 nations if he weren't finishing a law degree. There is also harry leonard, robbie ferguson, and james king who are all just as promising if not more than what shingler is.

gowales wrote:But if the U20 rule applied to NZ as well, don't you think it would be wrong.

It doesn't apply.

Shingler can go and play for Scotland and he has my blessing as far as I'm concerned he is not the sort of bloke that can be trusted or has the self belief to become a great player,he has taken the easy option rather than try and fight his way to a Welsh cap.
The rules are there for every nation and they clearly state that A teams are the designated second team and for those countries that do not have a A side then they can designate the U20s as their second team.
The rules also state that if you use your U20s as you designated side then you can only tie in players if you play against another country who's U20s side is also their second team.
It's not rocket science all we need to do now is wait for the decision off the IRB if France has declared their U20s as their second team.
Wales believe they have done everything within the rules and that is why they raised a issue regarding the poaching of Shingler.

Do I want Wales to win this case! It does not bother me if we do or not because I would never want Shingler to play for Wales again. What I would like to see happen though is that the IRB gets it's own house in order.

Morgannwg wrote:

gowales wrote:But if the U20 rule applied to NZ as well, don't you think it would be wrong.

It doesn't apply.

Given that NZ hasn't had an A side for the last 2 years, I suspect it may apply.

I thought you had the Baby Blacks according to the lads above every top nation bar Wales and occasionally France have A-Sides?

But wouldn't it only apply if New Zealands Junior All Blacks remained disbanded for another two years?

He would most likely be selected in the next 2 years or so if he came to Wales in the future. Can't see him coming before that.

Morgannwg wrote:But wouldn't it only apply if New Zealands Junior All Blacks remained disbanded for another two years?

True. I don't know what the NZRU's plans are re the JABs - I suspect if they can afford to run the team it'll be put back into the Pacific comp (depending on how busy NZ Maori's program is - there are some political considerations there).

I doubt NZ would raise objections even if the BabyBlacks had become the new 2nd team and Llewellen did try to opt for Wales though.

This is looking more and more like Shingler will have to play for Wales.

It is pretty apparent that most teams don't have working, playing competing A-Sides.

Lol, the "JABs"
I would imagine NZ would be looking at getting back their Junior AB team. There is also the NZ Maori as you mention. Flutey played for them and went on to play for England. Should there also be a ruling here?

Tonga has an A team
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/4768324/Crusader-Knights-defeat-Tonga

Fiji as well
http://www.fijirugby.com/pages.cfm/teams/

Do they actually play rugby?

maestegmafia

Seriously are you still trying to go on about and make out that no teams have 'A' sides??
There is a junior all black team but they didn't play last year due to the world cup. They are supposed to be playing games this year though!!

You cant always trust wiki but apparently Georgia has one as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_A_national_rugby_union_team

Yep all these teams have 'A' sides, I can remember seeing Tonga A play a season or so ago in Gala against a scotland 'a'.

According to that Fiji A have not played or filled in any match reports since 2008 and Tonga played against a club side that would explain why they called their side Tonga A.

When Japan played against North Harbour on tour a few years ago. They still called themselves Japan.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/3779772/North-Harbour-defeat-touring-Japan

Tonga A have definitely had games recently, must have been about a year or so ago at Gala and was one of Thom Evans last games in a scotland jersey.

So we are getting somewhere ,, We are in agreement that some countries have A sides and we also know that some countries have designated their U20s as their second team or development team.
So what is the problem ?

The problem is that it should be the same for all countries across the board

gowales wrote:The problem is that it should be the same for all countries across the board

It is the same for everybody you can have a A side or you can have a U20s you just cant designate both.
U20s works well for the regions because we tend to introduce payers at a younger age than clubs sides so why should Wales adopt a A side when we really don't need it.
Countries have a option and the rules are very clear regarding that option.

If the rules were really clear then would all this discussion and debating be going on.....no, i don't think so!!

They are clear to me,,, What part of the rules do you not understand ?

Well for one it is only applicable when Wales play another nation who has the same system. The question is when did France stop using the A team as their cut off.

That is for the IRB to decide they will be in possession of all the documents.

so it isn't clear cut then as the irb would not have to get involved??

It is very confusing. And also someone has said earlier on that the French don't actually have to tell the IRB when they change, so that will open up a whole new can of worms.

Of course they need to get involved because two countries have raised a objection.
The rules are clear but it does not mean that a country is not willing to break them.

From all the discussion going on in here and also in the media i think it is quite evident that the rules aren't fully clear and need to be looked at and changed so this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future.

Published on Monday 9 January 2012 18:17

Steve Shingler has been "badly affected" by the row over his eligibility for Scotland's RBS 6 Nations Championships squad according to his London Irish club coach Toby Booth.

The Swansea-born 20-year-old centre, who played for Wales Under-20s last year but has a Scottish mother, played well for Irish in their 21-19 Aviva Premiership win over Sale Sharks in Reading and that was "credit to him", said Booth, after a week where his international future was called into question.

Booth explained why the club were shielding Shingler from explaining the situation, saying: "When it all broke and there were some questions over it, it affected him quite badly."

The International Rugby Board have been contacted about the situation by both the Scottish and Welsh Rugby Unions.

Wales claim his appearance for the Under-20s makes it impossible for Scotland to select him, while the Scots say Shingler has "declined to sign a document declaring himself to Wales".

All this happened while Shingler was preparing with Irish for this weekend's game, where he was due to be on the bench but eventually started when England ace Shontayne Hape suffered a late injury.

Booth added: "As far as we are aware - and there is some stuff around from his agent - Steve Shingler is qualified for Scotland and will be taking up that unless he is advised or informed by the IRB not to do so.

"It is a massive distraction along with, by his own admittance, an ordinary performance (against Bath) the week before.

"So he was back in his more familiar position today and played well. But I'm sure people will understand the situation we are in.

"His agent and him are taking legal advice about the whole situation and I've just told Steve to concentrate on what he does week in and week out." (The Scotsman)

The problem is highlited in bold

His agent and him are taking legal advice about the whole situation.

Why would they need to do that ?The SRU would be doing that for him if everything was above board.

How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.

Also the arrogance that has suddenly appeared in the Welsh fans is remarkable, you got to the semi-final of the world cup in which you won four and lost three. You narrowly beat a six nations counterpart but you also narrowly loss to another (in a very brave and inspiring performance); this happens year in year out in the six nations, to take such a condescending view of the Scottish team is disrespectful. the Welsh haven't beaten a tri-nations team in a very long time, Scotland have beaten two. To say that suddenly you're the best side of Europe is extreme to say the least. World cups aren't always a good example of a team's level England got to the final in 2007. So to take the view that Wales are now loads better than their Celtic counterparts is both arrogant and foolish and I wouldn't be surprised if you lost to both of them.

Scotland are bunk. Hands off Shingler you flilthy poachers.

Numbers stop trying to use this as a excuse to attack the Welsh.
If you can shed some light regarding Steve then fine .

I think the above rant is all in his head Cymro, along with a certain set of numbers repeating themselves!

123456789 wrote:How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.

Also the arrogance that has suddenly appeared in the Welsh fans is remarkable, you got to the semi-final of the world cup in which you won four and lost three. You narrowly beat a six nations counterpart but you also narrowly loss to another (in a very brave and inspiring performance); this happens year in year out in the six nations, to take such a condescending view of the Scottish team is disrespectful. the Welsh haven't beaten a tri-nations team in a very long time, Scotland have beaten two. To say that suddenly you're the best side of Europe is extreme to say the least. World cups aren't always a good example of a team's level England got to the final in 2008. So to take the view that Wales are now loads better than their Celtic counterparts is both arrogant and foolish and I wouldn't be surprised if you lost to both of them.

what do you mean 'arrogance that has suddenly appeared'...I like to think any self respecting Welsh fan is always arrogant, we are better looking than other fans, can beat anyone on our day, play the most attractive style of rugby in the world and everyone wanted us to win RWC even David Cameron. Course Shingler wants to play for us, his Agent obviously is a plum

I will not deny that the Welsh undoubtedly have the most passionate fans, and often I think that is Scotland's shortcoming however my point is that comments saying that Ireland and Scotland don't have good enough players is disrespectful and remarkably short-sighted. To say that I'm attacking the Welsh is extreme. Just a few Welsh people. My point was (which I didn't put across well) that no one knows Shingler's reasoning behind this and that also having a dig at the other Celtic nations is wrong.

Clearly the IRB laws aren't clear, that is why the vast majority of Welsh fans have interpreted them one way and the Scottish fans the other. I would be unhappy if I found out that Scotland weren't trying to get the best players possible and if that means looking at players other countries have trained and developed so be it, especially in Shingler's positions where we are woefully weak.

How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.


Because he has gone on record several times stating that he wants to play for Wales and we presumed he was telling the truth.
What he told his mum is neither here or there.

Cymroglan wrote:How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.


Because he has gone on record several times stating that he wants to play for Wales and we presumed he was telling the truth.
What he told his mum is neither here or there.

That's no different to Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler's passionate declarations for all things Leicester and England, until we actually found out he supported Wales

Did anyone slag off Ireland and Scotland though?

I see you dismissed the World cup too, surely if it's that easy a competition Scotland would not have epically failed?

Numbers don't be dull, you were infinitely more interesting when you were being opinionated now you have gone all Swiss on us. BTW we narrowly murdered Ireland and we are the best side in Europe, fill your boots and attack the Welsh! I want us to be arrogant, i figure its the only way we will change our huge mental block that prevents us closing out sides on the bog occassion

123456789 wrote:How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.

Also the arrogance that has suddenly appeared in the Welsh fans is remarkable, you got to the semi-final of the world cup in which you won four and lost three. You narrowly beat a six nations counterpart but you also narrowly loss to another (in a very brave and inspiring performance); this happens year in year out in the six nations, to take such a condescending view of the Scottish team is disrespectful. the Welsh haven't beaten a tri-nations team in a very long time, Scotland have beaten two. To say that suddenly you're the best side of Europe is extreme to say the least. World cups aren't always a good example of a team's level England got to the final in 2007. So to take the view that Wales are now loads better than their Celtic counterparts is both arrogant and foolish and I wouldn't be surprised if you lost to both of them.

1. Shingler stated only in November that he wanted to play for Wales and has appeared in TV adverts as the next welsh fly half so his stated ambition has always been to play fgor Wales.

2. Since Scotland have failed to beat wales on 9 out of the last ten encounters, yep we are much better than them!

Personally Im with those posters who dont really care for Shingler playing for Wales after this but I expect the IRB to uphold their own ruling on this and Shingler will not be playing for Scotland. Good for London Irish but a shame for a talented player who has made himself look like a bit of a brat.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:How do all of you know that it hasn't always been his ambition to play for Scotland, maybe that was something in their house that he sided with his Mum or something along those lines. He diplomatically said it was his ambition to play International rugby[b] in an interview again leaving his options open.


Because he has gone on record several times stating that he wants to play for Wales and we presumed he was telling the truth.
What he told his mum is neither here or there.

That's no different to Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler's passionate declarations for all things Leicester and England, until we actually found out he supported Wales

He doesn't support wales, its ridiculous schadenfreude on his part. He is about as Welsh as Ben Morgan.

Or, as it turns out, Steven Shingler