What do you think about having a World Club Competition...?

World club championship still on the cards
James Mortimer - (8/01/2012)
The elusive dream of a club championship could still occur if Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty gets his way in the coming years.

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The reverie of seeing the Investec Super Rugby champions take on the Heineken Cup champions has always been a mouth-watering proposition for fans of the game, and the thought of teams like the Crusaders taking on Heineken Cup holders Leinster or French giants Toulouse would be fascinating.

McCafferty runs an organisation where the game is in excellent condition, with the Premiership recently reporting attendances are up seven percent since the World Cup, while Harlequins and Saracens recently broke the world record attendance for a club game – selling over 82,000 tickets.

He believed that eventually his Premiership could lead the way to a club challenge that would be a natural evolution in the game – with the concept embraced and successful in other codes.

"The national championship is something to treasure and Europe is very successful," he said.

"Ideally we would like to bolt on top of that an international club event, something that answers the question 'who is top dog?”

"Is it the Crusaders? Is it the Bulls? Is it Toulouse, Leinster or Saracens?

"That would be such a compelling event that sooner or later it will have to happen because people would love to see it. Club rugby at its best now is every bit as entertaining and enthralling, if not more so, than international rugby.

"Season structure is the biggest issue. We have had plenty of indications from our partners and from a TV point of view it would work.

"It won't happen before 2015, before the World Cup. There is a possibility it might happen after 2015. It is a matter of the stars coming into alignment to make something possible."

The Premiership and Rugby Football Union started their respective lives in the professional era on less than ideal terms, as players were not contracted centrally, and essentially a ‘club versus country’ battle ensued before Rob Andrew pioneered the landmark deal to compensate clubs and ensure player release.

The English ‘business model’ is one of the leading examples of evolution in the professional era and McCafferty said it could be adopted around the world.

"As I understand it, within the next five years all the Australian Super 15 teams will have private investment. New Zealand are looking at private investment because everyone understands their model is just not sustainable," McCafferty said.

"The RFU turn over 135 million pounds a year and invest only 10 percent of that into Premiership Rugby. In Australia and New Zealand, 40-50 percent of their revenues go into supporting the professional game.

"The consequence of that is you have less money to invest in the community game. The RFU have got the best of both worlds."

"You have to accept that for English rugby to be successful the clubs and country have to work hand in glove. When somebody pulls that hand out of the glove and smacks you, it doesn't work.”

"That is not the way we can work effectively together. But as long as everyone accepts that - and it is a two-way street, we have to help produce a successful England team - then English rugby will thrive.

"We have a contract that works. The agreement has been a big success. The issue now is to translate that into sustained England success.

I have no doubt that this will happen at some stage. Given that the NH and SH seasons do not run concurrently the biggest issue will be finding a date in the calender that is fair to both teams.

Simply. We don't need more games.

Don't care. In fact, I'm against it given we already have too many games.

Not interested in it.

It'll only be for the money, will mean very little and would be yet another game for a French, Irish side or English side.

There is already to many games. This chap just wants to make more money.

"Ideally we would like to bolt on top of that an international club event, something that answers the question 'who is top dog?”

"Is it the Crusaders? Is it the Bulls? Is it Toulouse, Leinster or Saracens?

Does anyone notice one team sticking out like a sore thumb here?

It would be fascinating to watch. But there would have to be a restructuring of the season.

What would it achieve ? that a mixture of nationalities chucked together in a rich club is better than another cosmopolitan club

Surely a club championsip is a misnomer as most of those teams listed are not clubs.

Recwatcher wrote:Surely a club championsip is a misnomer as most of those teams listed are not clubs.

It's just handier to say than a club/province/region/franchise championship I suppose.

Anyway in France and England all the the best players gravitate from smaller clubs towards the 12/14 top flight clubs; just like all the best players in Ireland are selected from their clubs by the 4 provinces. So there's no real difference in terms of the potential quality of the squads. If you look at the best club teams over the years like Wasps, Leicester and Toulouse, They're at the same level as the best Provincial teams there's been ie Munster/Leinster. The worst top flight pro club teams are probably similarly poor to the worst regions/provinces too.

I can't believe people wouldn't be interested in seeing this! If it could be sorted out in the schedule, perhaps replacing the heineken cup for one of the middle seasons between world cups for example it would be an awesome tournament to behold. The top teams not just in europe but in the world playing for title of the worlds best team!!

I think a European league is far more likely. With maybe a one off NH Champions v SH Champions match.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think a European league is far more likely. With maybe a one off NH Champions v SH Champions match.

That was my initial reaction too.
However in a perfect world (in my eyes), we'd scarp the Heinaken Cup and add the 12 Rabo direct teams to the 12 clubs from the English league and have a mamouth, 42 game league each season. With the bottom placed English club being relegated like it is now.

The northern hemisphere season is 42 weeks long with 10 weeks off, so provided you over lap internationals with the club games it would work.

Each Union would be responsible for seeing the tv rights to it's clubs home games, so if wales want s4c then fine, if England want sky then fine too. I really think that would kick on British rugby and the money generated would be immense.

It would leave the French out in limbo a bit, but they are more concerned with their top 14 anyway.

I understand what you are saying feckless but (some artificial) teams owned by central unions have changed the way rugby is now perceived and I simply dont like it.

In the short term, in a perfect world, in my eyes the English clubs will scrap the LV Cup with welsh regions and have a home & away knockout cup with the French clubs instead. A big sponsor and tv rights would generate enough revenue to replace the generally poorly attended LV games.

It might become a better focus for teams rather than the HC/Amblin with the 26 English/french clubs + 4 top English Div 2 teams and 2 top French Pro D2 teams to make the 32 clubs required for a knockout competition.

That would be a far more interesting competition. International leagues with few away fans and half empty stadia have no fascination whereas knockout competitions create more excitement.

Too much rugby as it is. Less internationals would get my vote.

A world Club competition would be a massive exercise,covering both full seasons of both hemispheres,especially presuming it would have to include Japan and Argentina and the Pacific islanders or dont their clubs count?

Japan!
I wonder who will be the first of the current Welsh players to ply their trade over there?

I'm sure this will start with a NH vs SH play off over the next few years. As has been touted many times.

It is just up to Mr Murdock really. He broadcasts and funds most of the worlds top rugby competitions.

It works well in rugby league. It also happens in soccer.

Before getting to the challenges this would create, I think this is a very good idea (we have discussed this before, right?). For the following reasons:
Another high profile match will help raise the profile of Rugby globally, brings/creates more fans
This would bring in big tv money which we need to help grow Rugby

The challenges are significant:
Aligning the schedules of the clubs being the most obvious
Deciding which club matches have to be eliminated to enable this is also a must

But, in general, I think this will happen simply because it is an obvious thing to do. Hopefully the challenges are dealt with intelligently (another challenge in itself?).

I think this idea is just pointless. I would definitely be against this.

So the big corporate guys in Europe and SH was to merge everything together, so what they can charge us more to get in? I could foresee international price tickets for this sh*t.

On top of this they'll probably create a form of bourgeoisie top table that will exclude most of the teams of Europe. Great idea for Leicester, Toulouse and Lenister but for teams such as Worcester, Ulster and Bordeaux I can only presume we'll be left to scrap for the pieces in some second division. On top of this teams like Connaught and Leeds will probably, in the words of Leon Trotsky, be put in the dust bin of history.

Then another aspect is the amount of dead rubber matches this league will create. Especially if they were to use the suggested formats above of massive leagues. And another flaw is the exclusion of Japan, North America, Argentina and the PIs?

I'm totally against this. I for one enjoy club rugby, probably more than internationals. I think we should all have our own leagues and then come together for European rugby. It adds an extra level.

Money makes the world go round - and that's the only thing on Premiership Chief Exec's mind.


Who is top dog?

"Is it the Crusaders? Is it the Bulls? Is it Toulouse, Leinster or Saracens?"

Well maybe it's Crusaders, Bulls, Toulouse, Leinster or Munster? Maybe it's Crusaders, Bulls, Toulouse, Leinster or Scarlets?

So where's the catch? Where's the money? The money is in creating a club competition that would always include a modicum of English club involvement. The guaranteed involvement would be the only reason Mark McCafferty salivates. If the premiership Chief Exec was central to setting up a kind of mini World club event, he'd definitely pin onto it more than 'one game proves the best in the world.' He's really trying to talk down the HC and talk up a World club league of sorts.

Secondly, I'm always suspicious of people who try to take attention away from the International game:

"That would be such a compelling event that sooner or later it will have to happen because people would love to see it. Club rugby at its best now is every bit as entertaining and enthralling, if not more so, than international rugby."

Club rugby may be every bit as entertaining and enthralling as International - I personally don't think so. I has it's moments, some beautiful moments to be sure, but it has it's drudgery too. On certain weeks there is not a game that stands out on any level that is as involving as International. PLUS: - the more you try to put the focus on Club over country, the more it becomes acceptable that professional players make their career choices based on club. New Zealand loses its international focus, Ireland loses it's international focus, etc, etc - and France and England benefit in the lack of restricting 'pay caps' ina professional club world, the density of population and the wages they can then offer. That's McCafferty's dream - he's just stroking SH egos for the moment to create it.

I think you are taking this way too far, mate. The discussion is about one match. Nothing more.

The reason why I don't think an Uber League is inevitable, or even probable or possible, is the power of the clubs and national unions which would furiously oppose it. Let alone fans like us. Its just a match, but a chance to bring focus and attention to Rugby. And, of course, money.

doctor_grey wrote:I think you are taking this way too far, mate. The discussion is about one match. Nothing more.

The reason why I don't think an Uber League is inevitable, or even probable or possible, is the power of the clubs and national unions which would furiously oppose it. Let alone fans like us. Its just a match, but a chance to bring focus and attention to Rugby. And, of course, money.

McCafferty isn't talking about a one in every five year chance that one of HIS clubs could be involved in a one off game. I don't think he cares less about that yearly game if an English side isn't competing in it. He's talking it up now in order to concentrate minds on what he really wants - and really needs - a mini world club event... and a dilution of the idea that International rugby is the premier rugby identity. He talks about private investment like it's a god coming to save the game. Private investment is shieks and Russian oil men taking over supremecy from the Unions. Get that and he's got a lifeline for his English club game. Money follows population density and world wide TV rights.

I hear you. And you may be right about what McCafferty is not saying. But a mini world club competition is nigh on impossible. The costs in travel alone, all over the world, would be too great. Let alone the strain on players. If richer sports don't do it, then for poor little Rugby it would be impossible. I don' think that concept has an ice cube's chance in hell.

Besides, the clubs in England and France, and virtually all National Unions would oppose it, despite the presumed infusion of cash it would bring.

Just another money making idea. The powers at be are in danger of going too far and losing the support and interest of the average fan.

I can see how someone would want this in order to settle an argument but apart from that what's the point?

Do we need more rugby? No.
Do the players need more rugby? Definitely not.
Do we have a great club competition already that brings in money? Yes
Will picking a time, location and even season for this cause huge problems logistically? Yes.
Do most rugby fans give a toss about whether their team is better than one they barely know about on the other side of the planet? Not really. This is from talking to fans from both hemispheres. Maybe men who have retired like my Dad and do nothing but watch rugby know every club side on earth but most people have vague enough notions about clubs in their own hemisphere.

The world record for a club match by the way was set by Munster v Leinster in Croke Park at 84,000 in 2009.

Intotouch wrote:
The world record for a club match by the way was set by Munster v Leinster in Croke Park at 84,000 in 2009.

I think the English record is specifically for an ordinary seasonal game...not playoffs? Could be wrong though - I have been before!!

This isn't about more rugby but different, possibly better rugby.

If this is ever going to happen the whole Northern Hemisphere set up needs to be re-structured.

I would start by doing away with the Heineken cup all together and merging the Pro12 and Aviva Prem into a 3 tiered British league system that allows teams to be promoted/relegated. This would create far more competitive leagues and be hugely beneficial to all involved.

The Top 14 is already a very strong league but could possibly join to make a european league in the long run.

Heineken cup would no longer be needed and free up time for a much more exciting "Club world cup".

CurlyOsp wrote:This isn't about more rugby but different, possibly better rugby.

If this is ever going to happen the whole Northern Hemisphere set up needs to be re-structured.

I would start by doing away with the Heineken cup all together and merging the Pro12 and Aviva Prem into a 3 tiered British league system that allows teams to be promoted/relegated. This would create far more competitive leagues and be hugely beneficial to all involved.

The Top 14 is already a very strong league but could possibly join to make a european league in the long run.

Heineken cup would no longer be needed and free up time for a much more exciting "Club world cup".

Case Proven. McCafferty's silent thoughts finally published.

Why don't the English and French simply apply to join our already existing 'European' Pro12 League? We'd accept 3 sides from each league based on a 10 year record in their respective leagues. When you do the sums, get back to us, we'll be delighted to think about it

oh you're Welsh??? Worse still!!!

AlynDavies wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think a European league is far more likely. With maybe a one off NH Champions v SH Champions match.

That was my initial reaction too.
However in a perfect world (in my eyes), we'd scarp the Heinaken Cup and add the 12 Rabo direct teams to the 12 clubs from the English league and have a mamouth, 42 game league each season. With the bottom placed English club being relegated like it is now.

The northern hemisphere season is 42 weeks long with 10 weeks off, so provided you over lap internationals with the club games it would work.

Each Union would be responsible for seeing the tv rights to it's clubs home games, so if wales want s4c then fine, if England want sky then fine too. I really think that would kick on British rugby and the money generated would be immense.

It would leave the French out in limbo a bit, but they are more concerned with their top 14 anyway.

You're kidding yourself. This would not kick on British rugby - it would disimprove Welsh and Scottish rugby as they couldn't afford to have the squads to last a 42 game league season, as well as most of the English ones. Also, why just British teams - what about Irish and Italian ones?

Just saying, teams like Sarries, Northampton and Leicester would benifit a lot more from playing Munster, Leinster and the Ospreys than the likes of Newcastle, Worcester etc.

At the same time, the teams lower in the Aviva Prem could benefit from playing in a league that they have a good chance of winning.

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

League 1: Munster, Leinster, Saracens, Saints, Leicester, Harlequins, Ospreys, London Irish.

League 2: Ulster, Blues, Scarlets, Exeter, Worcester, Bath, Gloucester, Wasps, Sale.

League 3: Glasgow, NG Dragons, Aironi, Newcastle, Connacht, Edinburgh, Treviso, Worcester.

Or possibly 2, 10 team leagues with 4 teams relegated.

Pot Hale wrote:You're kidding yourself. This would not kick on British rugby - it would disimprove Welsh and Scottish rugby as they couldn't afford to have the squads to last a 42 game league season, as well as most of the English ones. Also, why just British teams - what about Irish and Italian ones?

I'm not sure about Scotland but the Welsh regions have massive squads of over 40+ players, plus 2 feeder semi pro Welsh clubs, we'd be fine on that account. I think it would be fantastic because Welsh fans would travel in their droves to the Midlands and London to see the English teams and I'm sure the English would like coming here. Scotland, Ireland and Italy is a long way to go, but the midlands and London is only a couple of hours away.

AlynDavies wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:You're kidding yourself. This would not kick on British rugby - it would disimprove Welsh and Scottish rugby as they couldn't afford to have the squads to last a 42 game league season, as well as most of the English ones. Also, why just British teams - what about Irish and Italian ones?

I'm not sure about Scotland but the Welsh regions have massive squads of over 40+ players, plus 2 feeder semi pro Welsh clubs, we'd be fine on that account. I think it would be fantastic because Welsh fans would travel in their droves to the Midlands and London to see the English teams and I'm sure the English would like coming here. Scotland, Ireland and Italy is a long way to go, but the midlands and London is only a couple of hours away.

Only problem in that scenario is the often stated lack of enthusiasm of regional fans to even go to games around the corner from where they live. No, I'm not trying to be smart. That's often quoted as the greatest obstacle for Welsh regional rugby to overcome - bad attendances at home games.

30 or less of the welsh regions squads are seasoned pros, the rest are youngsters. Compared to the English teams we have very little depth.

AlynDavies wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:You're kidding yourself. This would not kick on British rugby - it would disimprove Welsh and Scottish rugby as they couldn't afford to have the squads to last a 42 game league season, as well as most of the English ones. Also, why just British teams - what about Irish and Italian ones?

I'm not sure about Scotland but the Welsh regions have massive squads of over 40+ players, plus 2 feeder semi pro Welsh clubs, we'd be fine on that account. I think it would be fantastic because Welsh fans would travel in their droves to the Midlands and London to see the English teams and I'm sure the English would like coming here. Scotland, Ireland and Italy is a long way to go, but the midlands and London is only a couple of hours away.

So what you're really advocating is what lies buried second-layer skin deep in every Welsh rugby supporter - an Anglo-Welsh league - why didn't you just say so?

SecretFly wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:You're kidding yourself. This would not kick on British rugby - it would disimprove Welsh and Scottish rugby as they couldn't afford to have the squads to last a 42 game league season, as well as most of the English ones. Also, why just British teams - what about Irish and Italian ones?

I'm not sure about Scotland but the Welsh regions have massive squads of over 40+ players, plus 2 feeder semi pro Welsh clubs, we'd be fine on that account. I think it would be fantastic because Welsh fans would travel in their droves to the Midlands and London to see the English teams and I'm sure the English would like coming here. Scotland, Ireland and Italy is a long way to go, but the midlands and London is only a couple of hours away.

Only problem in that scenario is the often stated lack of enthusiasm of regional fans to even go to games around the corner from where they live. No, I'm not trying to be smart. That's often quoted as the greatest obstacle for Welsh regional rugby to overcome - bad attendances at home games.

True - but don't underestimate the endless fascination and attraction to the Anglo maternal teat from across the Severn Bridge.....

A World Club competition is a terrible idea.

McCafferty and Premier Rugby have shown that have no interest in or loyalty to the International game. Any way he can erode the status of Test rugby makes it easier for him to sell his product, and that would undoubtedly increase his TV revenues at the expense of national Unions.

He already has been sowing seeds of playing AP games outside of England, irrespective of fans wishes. The impossibility for any significant number of fans being able to afford the huge travel costs would seriously damage gate receipts and destroy the traditional bonhomie shared by fans home AND away. Add to that the necessity to synchronise NH and SH seasons and all the associated negative implications for fans and it is obvious this idea is solely about lining Mr McCafferty's pocket.

Surely all real rugby fans who actually go to games would be vehemently opposed to this?

Pot Hale wrote:
True - but don't underestimate the endless fascination and attraction to the Anglo maternal teat from across the Severn Bridge.....

Oh I know it, Pot. I know that attraction and I know when the Celtic league was first created, many Welsh fans felt it was the completely wrong way to go...that they should have attached themselves to an English/Welsh league. I know too that I think that might be the real issue for many when they say thay can't motivate themselves to becoming fully involved in the 'regions' idea. I think they feel the old English v Welsh fire would have burned stronger as a league.

Maybe they're right. And if it happened that the Welsh went back into the arms of a British League, I suppose the Irish would cobble together a league with Italy and Scotland. I'm sure a ten side league could be meshed together with an extra Scottish and Italian side. We'd get by.

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
True - but don't underestimate the endless fascination and attraction to the Anglo maternal teat from across the Severn Bridge.....

Oh I know it, Pot. I know that attraction and I know when the Celtic league was first created, many Welsh fans felt it was the completely wrong way to go...that they should have attached themselves to an English/Welsh league. I know too that I think that might be the real issue for many when they say thay can't motivate themselves to becoming fully involved in the 'regions' idea. I think they feel the old English v Welsh fire would have burned stronger as a league.

Maybe they're right. And if it happened that the Welsh went back into the arms of a British League, I suppose the Irish would cobble together a league with Italy and Scotland. I'm sure a ten side league could be meshed together with an extra Scottish and Italian side. We'd get by.

"Get by"? I doubt it. That would be the time to start making eyes at South African teams to come hither, and a hitch of the skirt to flash the money garter. South African rugby doesn't have to be committed to solely playing in Super Rugby comp. It has the resources and depth to field more teams than that. Connacht SA or Leinster North SA, or maybe Roma SA....

42 game season !!! - someones having a laff

It wouldn't happen - the French will never give up their league . I honestly think they would withdraw from International rugby rather than give that up. It is sacred.

The Saints chairman was on the box this weekend and poured cold water on the whole idea of a World Club tournament. Clearly he was not in the least bit interested.

Pot Hale wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
True - but don't underestimate the endless fascination and attraction to the Anglo maternal teat from across the Severn Bridge.....

Oh I know it, Pot. I know that attraction and I know when the Celtic league was first created, many Welsh fans felt it was the completely wrong way to go...that they should have attached themselves to an English/Welsh league. I know too that I think that might be the real issue for many when they say thay can't motivate themselves to becoming fully involved in the 'regions' idea. I think they feel the old English v Welsh fire would have burned stronger as a league.

Maybe they're right. And if it happened that the Welsh went back into the arms of a British League, I suppose the Irish would cobble together a league with Italy and Scotland. I'm sure a ten side league could be meshed together with an extra Scottish and Italian side. We'd get by.

"Get by"? I doubt it. That would be the time to start making eyes at South African teams to come hither, and a hitch of the skirt to flash the money garter. South African rugby doesn't have to be committed to solely playing in Super Rugby comp. It has the resources and depth to field more teams than that. Connacht SA or Leinster North SA, or maybe Roma SA....

"Get by" - Yep, I said it and we'd do it. Irish rugby is a resouceful old fox. As every English person that seems to crop up here tells us, we're much more interested in Heineken and International. So as long as we have a competition that prepares us for those, and we can put our best players in cotton wool during it!!!!!, then we'll be fine.

On the SA issue. I've heard it rumbled. Talk about a trip to Ireland and Scotland being tough on the Welsh???? Wow - now there's a few seasonally tough trips for the Irish, Scots, Italians and South Africans!

I know, you did say they could have a few teams based in Italy or Ireland or Scotland.... hmmm, it'd be a technical nightmare with different Unions or Private operations being involved in one country. Plus, if a SA Irish squad could play in Ireland, based in Ireland, or Italy or Scotland, then why settle for SA? Let's have a NZ Irish side, or an Australian Irish side. No. Even stetch that idea. Why don't we apply to the Super 15 to have a Sydney Leinster side compete? Or a Wellington Munster? - The mind boggles at the possibilities.

Seems I might have misread this article - for one I'd like to see the HC winners play the S15 winners. But I'd like to see a one off game. Given that the leagues are run at different times of the calender year one team will have an advantage regardless of when it is played so its going to be viewed as a novelty game rather than anything else (I would still like to see it though)
I have no interest in an extended world club competition - as well as being almost impossible to organise it would be expensive to run and I'm not sure it would really benefit anyone.

A bit off topic but they should have had Anglo-Welsh league as soon as rugby went professional. No doubt the blazers up top put there egos first. I'd much rather be watching Neath v Leicester than Ospreys.

Pot Hale wrote:So what you're really advocating is what lies buried second-layer skin deep in every Welsh rugby supporter - an Anglo-Welsh league - why didn't you just say so?

Yes that's pretty much it, the Welsh enjoy playing the English the most, why do you think Wales and England tried for years to get a Anglo Welsh league set up?
At the start of professionalism there was a Anglo Welsh league set up, with mid week games for second teams, those games generated huge crowds in Wales.

Even prior to Scotlands teams joining the Welsh league, the WRU and the RFU was negotiating for a mixed league though some problems couldnt be over come, firstly the WRU wanted their games on terrestrial tv, England wanted the money from Sky, and neither side were prepared to back down on the amout of teams each nations would contribute, in the end the RFU give the WRU a final option of acepting a maximum of 5 clubs, 2 to go into the Premiership and 3 into the championship, the WRU declined, and negotiations ceased. The WRU the started talking to the Irish to create a celtic league, but the English were first choice.

Even as recently as 2009 the Welsh have been looking to leave the Rabo Direct and join the English. everything was organised between the WRU and the Premier rugby, but the RFU blocked the league at the last hurdle.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2009/01/25/talks-on-anglo-welsh-league-91466-22771549/

The Welsh were even expelled from the Celtic league in 2005 because they thought they could do better in creating a replacement to the Powergen Cup with the English.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/4105658.stm

Please do it so we can leave this joke of a competition.

The RFU turn over 135 million pounds a year and invest only 10 percent of that into Premiership Rugby. In Australia and New Zealand, 40-50 percent of their revenues go into supporting the professional game.

Im surprised no-one has picked up on this....thats a staggering difference...depending on how much the Aussies and Kiwis turn over of course.

What are the RFU doing with all that money....

The Aussie and NZ teams (who don't really make any money) are owned by the union so obviously they will have to invest more into the pro game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im surprised no-one has picked up on this....thats a staggering difference...depending on how much the Aussies and Kiwis turn over of course.

What are the RFU doing with all that money....

Grass roots clubs require funding as well, most of the RFU money goes to supporting the grass roots game, there are 2.5 million registered players in England remember!

CurlyOsp wrote:I would start by doing away with the Heineken cup all together and merging the Pro12 and Aviva Prem into a 3 tiered British league system

Um, excuse me?

CurlyOsp wrote: that allows teams to be promoted/relegated. This would create far more competitive leagues and be hugely beneficial to all involved.

The Top 14 is already a very strong league but could possibly join to make a european league in the long run.

Heineken cup would no longer be needed and free up time for a much more exciting "Club world cup".

I don't understand this. The Heineken Cup has been the most successful European competition on every level- in terms of quality of rugby, often surpassing the Six Nations, attendances, money making- you wouldn't want to touch it. It's the crown jewels of European Rugby.