EPS & Saxons

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Senior EPS Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Rob Webber (London Wasps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

BACKS (14)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Saxons Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Chris Brooker (Harlequins)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Matt Garvey (London Irish)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Luke Narraway (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Andrew Saull (Saracens)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Delon Armitage (London Irish)
Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Karl Dickson (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Ryan Lamb (Northampton Saints)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Leicester Tigers)
Micky Young (Leicester Tigers)

Does nobody remember when we were flying high on the brink of grandslam glory last year? Who was at the helm?

Strettle could start on the left wing. Straight shoot out between him and Sharples. Been in good form recently.

To be honest neither have impressed me a great deal this season, I'd have their club mates Short and JSD over the pair of them. Not seen a Sarries game since the game vs Quins (I think, may be mistaken, was that before or after the Ospreys double header?) but Goode has only looked solid I've not seen any of that counter attacking magic that undid Tigers and Gloucester in the AP play offs last year. If England were taking a punt on a 10/15 Rob Miller of Sale has really caught the eye.

You mention Saull's return to form and that has been timely. Glad to see he's in the Saxons. I'm a little disappointed Kvesic isn't though was hoping to see Kvesic and Gibson plus A N Other for the Saxons.

I really hope he does, he was immense against Saints last Friday

In a game where the Quins pack was given a royal kicking and the ref refused to speak to him because of his whining? Out muscled and shown to be poor when talking to the ref. Wouldn't say that was 'immense' personally. Now if you rewind a couple of weeks then Robshaw has been played very well indeed.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Re : Botha

Didnt Lancaster speak out against selecting players who qualified on short term residency and who would borderline on reaching the next world cup?
So he selects a guy who will be nealry 34 by the time of the 2015 cup and whos residency period only qualified last season.

I suspect Botha has remained because Lancaster ran out of changes he was able to make within the EPS agreement.

Botha moved here in 2004, so he would have qualified through residency almost 5 years ago.

Robshaw does seem to rub the refs up the wrong way, which is worrying since he's being touted as future captain. What does he do exactly??

Agree with you Sam regarding Kvesic, was hoping to see him in the Saxons at least. Also his team mate Jake Abbott looks pretty handy...

Couple of thoughts.

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

2. Dowson. Long been a fan of his but thought his ship had sailed. Could he be in as a potential captain, bringing in a wise old head (even if not an international one) and loads of experience captaining Lancaster's Saxons side?

Armchairexpert wrote:

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

Exactly what I've thought all along. Rowntree could work wonders with him I think

formerly known as Sam wrote:In a game where the Quins pack was given a royal kicking and the ref refused to speak to him because of his whining? Out muscled and shown to be poor when talking to the ref. Wouldn't say that was 'immense' personally. Now if you rewind a couple of weeks then Robshaw has been played very well indeed.

I thought he did extremely well playing wise and was the only Harlequin forward who didn't disappear on the night. Plus he never stops and always seems to work himself into the ground just about every time I see him play. I do wish he had more pace though, perhaps he should have joined Mike Brown in seeing Margo Wells for some sprint training. Agree on the captain front, I've seen him rub the ref up the wrong way on more than one occasion and reminds me of Borthwick with England in that regard.

I agree about Kvesic. Looks a great prospect at 7 or 8 and deserves recognition based on the times I've seen him this season.

I suspect Botha has remained because Lancaster ran out of changes he was able to make within the EPS agreement.

He wasn't part of the EPS though. He was named in the 40 man World Cup preliminary squad and then dropped before the main event. I presume his call up is due more to Farrell Senior being a coach and there being injuries to the preferred grunt machines Lawes and Deacon.

Robshaw does seem to rub the refs up the wrong way, which is worrying since he's being touted as future captain. What does he do exactly??

Talk too much. I've seen it a number of times, including live at Welford Rd. He just walks towards the ref complaining and after a while refs get annoyed and just send him away. He'd be better to ask for a chat and then moan rather than just whinging in the refs ear until the ref has enough.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Strettle could start on the left wing. Straight shoot out between him and Sharples. Been in good form recently.

To be honest neither have impressed me a great deal this season, I'd have their club mates Short and JSD over the pair of them. Not seen a Sarries game since the game vs Quins (I think, may be mistaken, was that before or after the Ospreys double header?) but Goode has only looked solid I've not seen any of that counter attacking magic that undid Tigers and Gloucester in the AP play offs last year. If England were taking a punt on a 10/15 Rob Miller of Sale has really caught the eye.

You mention Saull's return to form and that has been timely. Glad to see he's in the Saxons. I'm a little disappointed Kvesic isn't though was hoping to see Kvesic and Gibson plus A N Other for the Saxons.

I really hope he does, he was immense against Saints last Friday

In a game where the Quins pack was given a royal kicking and the ref refused to speak to him because of his whining? Out muscled and shown to be poor when talking to the ref. Wouldn't say that was 'immense' personally. Now if you rewind a couple of weeks then Robshaw has been played very well indeed.

Sam you said that you saw Quins vs Sarries. Were you not impressed by Strettle in the 1st 40 before he went off injured? He made two excellent breaks, scored an interception try and put some big tackles including smashing Nick Evans almost right at the beginning of the match. He looked really sharp and on that performance I think that's why he picked Strettle.

I think Short's form has dipped a bit this season actually. Game vs Quins was after the two games vs the O's.

I have seen a bit of the old Alex Goode recently. Some good counterattacking against Bath as example.

I think Robshaw and the Quins backrow have come off 2nd best both against Saracens and Saints. I think Robshaw worked hard in both games but ultimately was shut out in both for long enough for Saints and Sarries to hit Quins hard on the scoreboard. When Quins had the upper hand in both games at the breakdown they simply did not capitalise on it.

bluestonevedder wrote:

B91212 wrote:I still think I want Croft at 6 and Robshaw on the bench but I wouldn't be upset if your backrow starts against Scotland. Teams wouldn't want the ball to go into touch too often if the team contained Palmer, Parling (please please not Botha), Wood & Croft.

I don't really think Croft and Wood can operate on both flanks, because they are too similar in stature. I think if you start Robshaw and 6 and just let him play his normal game (tackling anything that moves, carrying, hitting rucks, clearing rucks, etc), that would allow Wood to play the 7 role, following the ball and scavenging. If Croft were to start alongside Wood, Wood would be forced to carry out more of the 6 duties, because Croft's natural game isn't orientated towards to tighter work.

Agree Robshaw and Wood will compliment each other well. In the Saints v Quins game they both had brilliant matches doing two very different roles.

A lot of people plumping for a starting backrow of Robshaw, Wood & Morgan.

From the EPS Lancaster has chosen I'd rather see Dowson at 8 against Scotland (I think we'll need his superior breakdown ability and his leadership for an inexperienced squad's critical first game of the tournament), with Morgan given a shot against Italy (yes, I know that will be against Parisse, but I think the game as a whole will suit him better).

I've said this a number of times before, but as good as Morgan has looked at times, it's largely been against the lesser opposition the PRO12 has to offer (he's still never faced Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Faletau or Lydiate).

The Scarlets v Saints game this weekend with 4 of the England backrow options in the mix will have very tasty undertones.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

Exactly what I've thought all along. Rowntree could work wonders with him I think

Is there anything to stop Rowentree wandering down to Quins training sessions and sorting him out anyway?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

Exactly what I've thought all along. Rowntree could work wonders with him I think

Is there anything to stop Rowentree wandering down to Quins training sessions and sorting him out anyway?

Plus what if Corbisiero gets injured in the build up to the Scotland game then Rowntree won't have had anytime to work his magic anyway and Murray will probably take him to the cleaners. Poor selection for me, personally think he is behind both Mullen and Wood at the moment due to his set piece work.

The team should be - Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Botha, Palmer, Wood or Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Youngs, Farrell, Sharples, Barritt, Trinder (Don't understand his exculsion) Ashton and Foden
Otherwise the future looks bright...Or just another England mess...

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

Exactly what I've thought all along. Rowntree could work wonders with him I think

Is there anything to stop Rowentree wandering down to Quins training sessions and sorting him out anyway?

I suspect there probably is. Seeing as you can't coach scrummaging to an individual on his own he would need to start coaching the whole Quins pack or front row at least. That I think wouldn't go down well on principle with the other Premiership clubs. It's one thing to have a word with a player along with his coach and tell him what he needs to work on, quite another to roll your sleeves up and start really coaching at the clubs.

B91212 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:

1. Marler, is he not there simply because Rowntree is crying out to get hold of him and improve his scrummaging?

Exactly what I've thought all along. Rowntree could work wonders with him I think

Is there anything to stop Rowentree wandering down to Quins training sessions and sorting him out anyway?

Plus what if Corbisiero gets injured in the build up to the Scotland game then Rowntree won't have had anytime to work his magic anyway and Murray will probably take him to the cleaners. Poor selection for me, personally think he is behind both Mullen and Wood at the moment due to his set piece work.

That is a reasonable point and hopefully they won't use Stevens at loose again, but if there is injury they can always call on the Saxons squad. Look I'm not sure why Marler is there, just throwing out a possibility

If there's an injury to Corbs, they can call up Mullan from the Saxons, who will have been training alongside the full EPS, so it won't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not sure I buy that Marler can't scrummage. The performance of Quins' scrum this season has tended to turn very much on who is at tighthead, and whether we have our one big enforcer lock (Kohn) on the pitch.

Marler isn't a scrummaging weapon, but he rarely gets pinged (for one thing, he always binds ridiculously long, almost on the shorts). He does go in higher than he should though, and if Rowntree can fix his initial body position we may see him in a different light. As a 19 year old, he and Aston Croall took Julian White to pieces in the A league final, so the potential is there.

Poorfour wrote:If there's an injury to Corbs, they can call up Mullan from the Saxons, who will have been training alongside the full EPS, so it won't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not sure I buy that Marler can't scrummage. The performance of Quins' scrum this season has tended to turn very much on who is at tighthead, and whether we have our one big enforcer lock (Kohn) on the pitch.

Marler isn't a scrummaging weapon, but he rarely gets pinged (for one thing, he always binds ridiculously long, almost on the shorts). He does go in higher than he should though, and if Rowntree can fix his initial body position we may see him in a different light. As a 19 year old, he and Aston Croall took Julian White to pieces in the A league final, so the potential is there.

Agree with that. Against Saracens there was one scrum where we got penalised and Stuart Barnes instantly started talking about Marler's weakness is the scrum. Dean Ryan then showed an angle from above, from which it was clear that it was Johnston who'd been forced inwards at 90 degrees and destabilised the other two. The same was happening against Exeter, but the moment Johnston came on the whole scrum was transformed. Marler wont destroy anyone at international level, but he's more solid in the scrum than people give him credit for. Next to Hartley and Cole he'd be fine, I think.

I like the look of the EPS, but not sure about Botha being in the team, was expecting to see Robson given a chance. I like that Dowson at last as been called in, what with Morgan and Dowson fighting it out for no 8 spot.

Would like a back row of Wood, Robshaw, either Morgan or Dowson in the 8 spot.

Will it be 10 Charlie Hodson, 12 Brad Barrit, 13 Owen Farrel? or will Farrel be on the bench for cover of 10.12,13.

Finally people talking sense about Marler. And yes Barnes made me laugh with his comments (totally wrong).

I imagine if there is an injury to Corbs PDJ will come straight in to the team unless Marler has an outstanding training session.

With you on that, yappy.

Do I remember right that Corbs can play both sides? If so, I could imagine a squad where Marler is on the bench with a view to bringing him on as the scrum tires to wreak havoc in the loose (I sometimes want Quins to use him that way).

I wouldn't risk it against Scotland or Wales - but against Ireland he'd be propping against Mike Ross, who was Quins' TH until just before Joe came out of the academy. Rossy's a decent scrummager (for which John Kingston and co never seem to get the credit they deserve), but I'd imagine that Joe knows how to handle him better than any other international TH.

majesticimperialman wrote:
Would like a back row of Wood, Robshaw, either Morgan or Dowson in the 8 spot.

Will it be 10 Charlie Hodson, 12 Brad Barrit, 13 Owen Farrel? or will Farrel be on the bench for cover of 10.12,13.

I like that, and it will almost certainly be Morgan. Lancaster and Rowntree have said more than they needed to about how highly they rate him, and Dowson hasn't played 8 as his main position for quite a while now. Dowson would be a good bench option though, as he can cover all three positions.

On the midfield you've mentioned - realistically whoever starts the game against Scotland, if Tuilagi doesn't make it, will probably make way for him the moment he is fit. Given that they're starting from scratch here, it would make sense to structure a back line that he'll be able to slot into easily rather than reworking it all after one game when he comes back. Lancaster has already expressed his preference for a second 5/8 type at 12 and a strike runner at 13. That would suggest to me that if Farrell starts it will be at 12. Barritt could easily fill the strong carrying role at 13 though, I guess.

yappysnap and poorfour - Presumably you mean Stevens or Wilson? Doran-Jones isn't actually in the squad. I was thinking the same about having Marler on the bench. At international level there are far fewer scrums anyway, so it's not likely to win or lose you the game as much as at club level.

Agree with all of that. He could be a really affective impact sub as you say and with Cole propping up the scrums from his side can get himself in to the thick of the action in the loose.

I think Ross has come on a bit since Quins but Ire still have probably the weakest scrum in the tournament.

yappysnap wrote:Agree with all of that. He could be a really affective impact sub as you say and with Cole propping up the scrums from his side can get himself in to the thick of the action in the loose.

I think Ross has come on a bit since Quins but Ire still have probably the weakest scrum in the tournament.

I vaguely remember not thinking much of Mike Ross' scrummaging at all when he was with us, so I was amazed at how well he's done with Leinster and Ireland. Whether that's down to my memory or the Quins scrum coaching I'm not sure, but I've been going for four years and can't remember us having a noticeably strong scrum at any point of that. Andress seems to be doing better in that area since he left us for Exeter as well.

thomh wrote:yappysnap and poorfour - Presumably you mean Stevens or Wilson? Doran-Jones isn't actually in the squad. I was thinking the same about having Marler on the bench. At international level there are far fewer scrums anyway, so it's not likely to win or lose you the game as much as at club level.

Nope, I meant PDJ. If an EPS player is injured, the management can call someone from the Saxons up to the full squad. MJ did it several times - he stocked the Saxons with players who were direct replacements for squad members, so they could leapfrog into starting roles if need be.

Yea that is a good point, I can't ever remember our scrum being a force in the premiership. I think part of that would be the game plan and an apparent lack of emphasis on it, instead opting for all the loose play and lineot work.

yappysnap wrote:Yea that is a good point, I can't ever remember our scrum being a force in the premiership. I think part of that would be the game plan and an apparent lack of emphasis on it, instead opting for all the loose play and lineot work.

Quins haven't been a team noted for their scrum since the days of Woody and the Funbus. But I remember that in their last season together the combination of Ceri Jones, Mike Ross and Gary Botha / Tani Fuga quietly compiled some of the best scrum stats in the league. They rarely shoved anyone off the park, but did a very good job of getting their own ball and not giving away penalties. Which at international level is really all you need to do. Which in turn suggests that Marler as an international scrummager may not be as big a risk as it might seem.

My sides (Players in brackets are the players I'd have if they weren't injured)

1. Corbs
2. Hartley (c)
3. Cole
4. Attwood (Lawes)
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Wood
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Hodgson (Flood)
11. Sharples
12. Farrell
13. Trinder (Tuilagi)
14. Ashton
15. Foden


Saxons

1. Wood
2. Paice
3. Thomas
4. Garvey
5. Robson
6. Johnson
7. Gibson
8. Waldrom
9. Dickson
10. Burns
11. Monye
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. May
15. Abendonon

Poorfour wrote:

thomh wrote:yappysnap and poorfour - Presumably you mean Stevens or Wilson? Doran-Jones isn't actually in the squad. I was thinking the same about having Marler on the bench. At international level there are far fewer scrums anyway, so it's not likely to win or lose you the game as much as at club level.

Nope, I meant PDJ. If an EPS player is injured, the management can call someone from the Saxons up to the full squad. MJ did it several times - he stocked the Saxons with players who were direct replacements for squad members, so they could leapfrog into starting roles if need be.

I can't remember anyone ever coming in from the saxons during a tournament and making it into the starting team. Do you have any examples of that? Tom Wood came in for an injury this time last year, but that was a pre-existing injury, and it was just one of their ways around the EPS agreement to only add him to the squad when the training camp started. I remember there had been speculation for weeks over which two of Wood/Dowson/Robshaw would be called into the squad for the injuries to Croft and Moody.

In any case, is PDJ really enough of a loosehead for him to overtake Stevens and Wilson mid-tournament?

Sorry if such a breakdown has been done before, but a quick scan of the posts doesn't appear to give a full break down by club:

Club EPS (Saxons) Total
Saints 8 (2) 10
Tigers 6 (5) 11
Sarries 6 (2) 8
Quins 4 (5) 9
Bath 2 (3) 5
Wasps 2 (3) 5
Irish 1 (5) 6
Glous 1 (5) 6
Chiefs 0 (1) 1
Worcs 0 (1) 1
Newcastle 0 (0) 0

Stade 1 (0) 1
Scarlets 1 (0) 1

Could someone remind me of the concurrency of Full and Saxons match fixtures (I couldn't find them on the RFU site)?

Few more Saracens in the squad as expected.

Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Turner-Hall, Sharples, Flood, Youngs, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Palmer, Deacon, Cole, Hartley, Stevens.
Brown, Farrell, Barritt, Corbieseiro, Mears, Croft, Lawes.

Morgannwg wrote:Few more Saracens in the squad as expected.

Foden, Ashton, Tuilagi, Turner-Hall, Sharples, Flood, Youngs, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Palmer, Deacon, Cole, Hartley, Stevens.
Brown, Farrell, Barritt, Corbieseiro, Mears, Croft, Lawes.

Thanks for that Morgan (if that post was directed at me),

But what I was trying to ask was how many Saxons games will be played on the same weekends as 6Ns ones.

Sorry if I mis-read your post.

Portnoy wrote:
But what I was trying to ask was how many Saxons games will be played on the same weekends as 6Ns ones.

There will only be two Saxons games. The first against the Wolfhounds will be on 28th Jan, the weekend before the 6N when the LV is on. The second still isn't confirmed yet, but will be against Italy A sometime in Feb.

Last year the Saxons games were the weekend before and then the first weekend of the 6N, both of which were LV weekends.

Just found the second Saxons game will be against Scotland A this year, 3rd Feb, the eve of the senior game.

niwatts

Do you know where that Scotland A game is?

In Galashiels

Well you are never going to agree with all selections, but basically these are two decent squads. My complaints would be:

- JTH: Has shown enough stand out form to get into the squad for me, and highly unlikely to start given Farrell and Barritt are both solid ICs. Twelvetrees should have been there instead, and could have covered FH.
- Clark: Lancaster obviously rates him from the past. A solid start to the season, without really standing out, he's definitely improving but I'm not sur he's there yet, and being injured for the last few months should have ruled him out.
- Botha: possibly a result of having a limited number of changes?
Simpson: In horrible form.
Webber: Throwing very badly at present.

I think the side against Scotland will be:

Foden, Ashton, Farrell, Barritt, Strettle, Hodgson, Youngs, Corbisero, Hartley, Cole, Botha, Palmer, Croft, Wood/Robshaw, Morgan

Some issues include Corbs being in poor form and the lack of a carrier in the second row. In the centres Farrell at 12 leaves us lacking pace at 13 and Barritt at 12 leaves us lacking a play-maker at 12 (and a slight lack of pace at 13). Trinder could come in, with Farrell dropping to the bench but I don't believe any Saxon will start ahead of an EPS player, at least early in the tournament.

Farrell has to be in the matchday squad if Flood is injured. to cover FH. I don't understand Goode being promoted over 36 from the Saxons, as Goode hasn't played 10 in more than a year and never really convinced when he did play there. We certainly don't need cover at FB so what is he doing there?

As for the Saxons: Players like Kvesic should be left at age-group level, but where is Wallace, or even Abbott? Interesting to see Lamb in the picture, and what a collection of backs: Burns, Twelvetrees, Trinder, JJ, May.

All in all not bad. If Lancaster really did run out of EPS changes in the locks and so does starting Parling and Attwood in the second row then not bad becomes pretty good.

I don't think there is a problem at 7. There are several exicting young 7s coming through who either are or could/should be in the Saxons. For the senior side Croft is a nailed on starter. If we had another 7 that would mean neither Wood nor Robshaw starting, and that seems strange given they are both perfectly good 7's and bring obvious leadership skills.

Croft should only be a nailed on starter if they can build a balanced back row that includes him. He's an outrageously talented player, but he doesn't play a conventional role, so the other two in the back row need to be able to cope with that and make sure the basics are done.

I'd be more comfortable with a Croft/Robshaw pairing than Croft/Wood on that basis. Robshaw's workrate would allow Croft more scope to play his own game.

Poorfour...i actually think the back row is one of the biggest dilemas in the whole team...

I do agree that Croft & Wood just doesnt seem right as a flank partnership...

I personally would prefer to see Wood & Robshaw on the flanks...to give us more bite and workrate...but its all just personal preferance...

DaveM wrote:Farrell has to be in the matchday squad if Flood is injured. to cover FH. I don't understand Goode being promoted over 36 from the Saxons, as Goode hasn't played 10 in more than a year and never really convinced when he did play there. We certainly don't need cover at FB so what is he doing there?

Sorry has he been called up as injury cover? I thought he was in the Saxons squad?
Id agree with your comments if he has been

He has been called up as injury cover.

I think Croft, Robshaw and Morgan is a balanced backrow, but I disagree that Wood and Croft can't play together. Wood gets himself involved in a lot of rucks.

Question for England fans: a number of you have listed starting XVs or XXIIs that include a player from the Saxons covering an EPS player that is injured, with the covering player ahead of some other player already in the EPS - is that likely to happen, can it in fact happen? An example would be Trinder covering for Tuilagi, coming into the EPS and starting ahead of Barritt or Farrell at 13, or similarly Attwood covering for Deacon, coming in and starting ahead of Botha, for example? Just curious

DaveM wrote:He has been called up as injury cover.

I think Croft, Robshaw and Morgan is a balanced backrow, but I disagree that Wood and Croft can't play together. Wood gets himself involved in a lot of rucks.

I would have Wood in there because he is excellent at ruck time...

The problem is that neither he nor Croft are particularly big ball carriers (Croft can do it out wide but we need hard yard makers)....and in Palmer and probably Botha...we still dont have that...which would leave potentially Morgan as the only guy really capable of getting his head down and making yards....unless Hartley ups his game. Thats a lot of work...so i dont think it is a balance.

At least Robshaw would provide another ball carrier...allowing Wood to concentrate on winning the ball....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Poorfour...i actually think the back row is one of the biggest dilemas in the whole team...

I do agree that Croft & Wood just doesnt seem right as a flank partnership...

I personally would prefer to see Wood & Robshaw on the flanks...to give us more bite and workrate...but its all just personal preferance...

I agree. But, who plays 8 then? I would prefer Dowson for now because he adds a lot of grit, toughness and work rate. Leads by example. He wouldn't really be in the mix for 2015, but that is a long way off and the squad needs leadership now.

I think Short's form has dipped a bit this season actually. Game vs Quins was after the two games vs the O's

I'm not sure whether that's because he's coming in and out of the side more though. He's not getting the same run of games as he got last year.

Sam you said that you saw Quins vs Sarries. Were you not impressed by Strettle in the 1st 40 before he went off injured? He made two excellent breaks, scored an interception try and put some big tackles including smashing Nick Evans almost right at the beginning of the match. He looked really sharp and on that performance I think that's why he picked Strettle.

Strettle has always read the game well and he doesn't lack acceleration or top end pace (he's actually a good kick chase option from the kick off) but he does seem to drift in and out of games. When he gets the ball you never know whether a 40m break or an amble in contact is coming. He's been around the squad for a while without breaking into the setup so it will be interesting if he gets a go and puts down a marker. Think he might take advantage of a bit of Sarries favouritism and start ahead of Sharples but he'll need to perform straight from the word go.

DaveM wrote:He has been called up as injury cover.

I think Croft, Robshaw and Morgan is a balanced backrow, but I disagree that Wood and Croft can't play together. Wood gets himself involved in a lot of rucks.

For Tuilagi? Or Flood?

It wont make a great dela ofdiffrence really, both of those are expected to be fit fairly soon possibly even for the Scotland game. I think Lancaster still has a love affair with Goode following last winter, he was really pushing for him to make the world cup squad. Its probably only Brown making himself a must pick that stopped Goode form being in the senior EPS regardless of his form this year. Lancaster also seems to have a massive thing for anyone who isnt a proper fly half for the bench, which is perhaps why Billy got left out as he proved he can actually play well there

Peter seabiscuit wheeler

Yes Lancaster must have a love affair with Goode because he picked him in the EPS....err...wait..a minute... he's in the Saxons. He is one of the top full backs in England. He is there on merit. Lancaster was pushing him for the world cup squad because he has been consistently one of the best FBs in the AP.


Sigh one recent good performance at FH against a woeful Wasps side at home means Twelvetrees is now seen as the next big thing at FH? There is no doubt he is a good player but he needs more big match practice. Plus he needs to prove he has the bottle.

I think outplaying the 1st choice England fly half in an AP final counts a little bit more! We'll see if Billy has the true bottle against Ulster. Certainly didn't when missing a certain penalty in front of the posts!

Sam funny isn't it how the worm turns. After so long of Leicester bias and my accusations of it, you now see the England management as biased towards Saracens. More Saints players though, as many Tigers as Sarries and still a Leicester man in the management.

I think the England management is well balanced. Good representations from the top 4 and coaches picked on merit. Btw I am not anti Rowntree. He is the only England coach not humiliated in the world cup.

Fair assessment of Strettle but I think we'll have more of an idea of every player in the England squad after the next 2 HC rounds. Strettle has been in better form than Sharples though. Would you disagree?

Sharples did score a nice try against Worcester at the weekend. Showed good technique to finish. Didn't see the whole game but Sharples has been a good deal quieter that usual. With the Gloucester team misfiring I'm not sure whether it's a lack of chances or him being off form.

Sam funny isn't it how the worm turns. After so long of Leicester bias and my accusations of it, you now see the England management as biased towards Saracens

I'm joking with you, well perhaps not on the Botha selection, consider it revenge for the claims of Tigers bias previously levelled at the Tigers when Johnno et al were in charge.

Sigh one recent good performance at FH against a woeful Wasps side at home means Twelvetrees is now seen as the next big thing at FH?

I'd hope not. He's a very talented centre who could become an international star but he is only a good 10 that has several flaws and is unlikely to ever be an international standard 10. He could cover the position in an emergency though.

Sam we'll have more of an idea of everyone's form closer to the time.

I wouldn't have picked Botha either but even he has a chance to show why he deserved to be picked. I have said many times my preferrable choice is Garvey.

Well that's fair. It's only fair if I dish out accusations/insults I get it back in return when the worm turns.

We'll see how Billy does vs Ulster. As Leicester are an English side and Billy is English I wish you and him the best of luck.