EPS & Saxons

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Senior EPS Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Rob Webber (London Wasps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

BACKS (14)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Saxons Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Chris Brooker (Harlequins)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Matt Garvey (London Irish)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Luke Narraway (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Andrew Saull (Saracens)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Delon Armitage (London Irish)
Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Karl Dickson (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Ryan Lamb (Northampton Saints)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Leicester Tigers)
Micky Young (Leicester Tigers)

gowales wrote:Ben Morgan was one of the standout players for the Scarlets today, you guys reckon he'll start?

There was one moment (towards the end of the game) when he got forced backwards towards the Scarlets line and Saints turned him over and nearly scored. Poor body angle.

Other than that he looks pretty impressive. I'd maybe have him on the bench for the opener rather than as a starter for England.

I'd start Dowson at 8 for the Scotland match (with Morgan on the bench if Wood is injured), which I think will be breakdown oriented and being the first match with many new caps we'll need an extra bit of leadership for. I'd then start Morgan for the Italy match, which I think will be more carry oriented and some of the many other new caps would have bedded a little in for, plus we should have some returning first choice players for.

I think if Morgan starts the Italy match, Pariesse will eat Morgan for lunch.

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Morgan has been very good for the Scarlets all season and fully understand why we wanted him but some on here were (WUMs maybe) quite negative about him as he was playing in sub-standard league etc etc.

I'm not sure if that is referencing my comments, but I haven't said anything about a sub-standard league or been negative about aspects of Morgan's play. What I've said is that Morgan has looked good so far, but questioned how high we can rate him without having (oddly) seen him face the best backrow players the PRO12 has to offer. In his couple of years playing for Scarlets he surprisingly still hasn't played against the international players Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Faletau or Lydiate, as well as a few other top names.

doctor_grey wrote:I think if Morgan starts the Italy match, Pariesse will eat Morgan for lunch.

No.8s don't really get into much of a head to head though, it's more of the cumulative backrow battle at the breakdown & tackle area, and 8s off the base being tackled by the SH and flankers.

Besides, as much improved as Italy are, if he can't cope with that game, would he really do much better against the all round strerner test of Scotland?

Also, part of what I said was not to give him a cold start in either. Bring the lad off the bench to give him a taste before starting him.

stlowe wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Morgan has been very good for the Scarlets all season and fully understand why we wanted him but some on here were (WUMs maybe) quite negative about him as he was playing in sub-standard league etc etc.

I'm not sure if that is referencing my comments, but I haven't said anything about a sub-standard league or been negative about aspects of Morgan's play. What I've said is that Morgan has looked good so far, but questioned how high we can rate him without having (oddly) seen him face the best backrow players the PRO12 has to offer. In his couple of years playing for Scarlets he surprisingly still hasn't played against the international players Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Faletau or Lydiate, as well as a few other top names.

stlowe,

Not your comments at all mate as never mind people stating facts when they are right (unlike some on here) but others have had digs at the standard of the league etc saying its hard to judge him

He seemd to fair very well today against his comtempories now and personally think he will be in match day squad but not start, after all he's the only out and out 8 in the EPS isn't he?

Yes, I thought he did well today, particularly in the first half.

Like you say, he's the only real 8 in the squad, and given how the coaches have have namechecked him I'd be surprised if he wasn't in the match day squad.

My inclination would be to bring him on from the bench, I think new, young players in key positions like 8, halfbacks and props are best introduced as subs rather than starts, particularly if that match isn't at home.

niwatts wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think if Morgan starts the Italy match, Pariesse will eat Morgan for lunch.

No.8s don't really get into much of a head to head though, it's more of the cumulative backrow battle at the breakdown & tackle area, and 8s off the base being tackled by the SH and flankers.

Besides, as much improved as Italy are, if he can't cope with that game, would he really do much better against the all round strerner test of Scotland?

Also, part of what I said was not to give him a cold start in either. Bring the lad off the bench to give him a taste before starting him.

OK, mate. Sorry if I misunderstood. Bringing Morgan off the bench I can agree with and would be the best way to blood him without risking too much. Pariesse is one the the best 8s in the world and knows how to exploit a weak link. I think if Pariesse thought he could gain any advantage by playing towards a young but inexperienced opponent, he would. Thats what I meant. But let's hope things go well and Morgan turns out to be the goods.

doctor_grey wrote:Pariesse is one the the best 8s in the world and knows how to exploit a weak link. I think if Pariesse thought he could gain any advantage by playing towards a young but inexperienced opponent, he would. Thats what I meant.

I could definitely see that, but then the likes of Heaslip, Ferris, Dusautoir, Harinordoquy, Warburton, Lydiate & the Killer Bs probably wouldn't make it any easier.

No they wouldn't. The Six Nations is a trial by fire. Thats why I would want him coming off the bench. If he holds his own, then let's feed him to the wolves.

doctor_grey wrote:I think if Morgan starts the Italy match, Pariesse will eat Morgan for lunch.

The Scarlets pack pretty much had Dowson for lunch yesterday would you start him against Parisse. Who else are you gonna play? Robshaw(6/7), Dowson (6/7/8) To me playing someone out of position will most likely see them being 'eaten for lunch' by Parisse

Can't say, mate. I didn't see the Scarlets-Saints match, so can't comment on Dowson's performance. But he is a tough cookie. If he had a poor match, the good news is he usually doesn't have two in a row. He usually shows up big against the better back rows. That's why he was picked to be in the EPS.

Neither Dowson nor Clark looked great in the first half yesterday, but Morgan looked pretty decent for the full 80, even being on the losing side.

I watched the Scarlets Northampton game and Morgan was the most impressive out of the three. (Morgan/Dowson/Clark) He was solid and consistent with a high work-rate and an appetite to carry and tackle.

Clark has a high defensive work-rate, however in the match he was a little inconsistent and showed a lack of discipline at times. Dowson didn't have a bad game at all. He just didn't have a great one, and wasn't involved as much as he would have liked.

Do we have enough grunt and power in the engine room...?

Geordie - No, we dont. And worse than that - we dont have the lumping front row to make up for any deficiency in the 2nd row or elsewhere.

i.e. We could afford to have Mears hooking if Sherridan was starting ect.
We need a lump in the 2nd row to accomadate a more mobile front row - someone to 'Shaw' up the pack.
I presume thats why Attwood and Botha are both in the EPS - I just hope that they do a good enough job.

propdavid_london wrote: someone to 'Shaw' up the pack.

I see what you did there. Good job.

Yeah i agree...i fear that we have moved away from our traditional strengths in the attempt to please people with an athletic game.....

Who cares about making people happy...keep our traditional bludgeoning forwards...then spin it wide for potentially excellent backs...

I would love to see an Englad pack strangle the life out of all others.
But sadly I dont think its a choice. We just dont have those monster forwards anymore so our tactics have to adapt to a more mobile/athletic style of player.

Watching Saracens on Sunday 2 players England should steer well clear of are Stevens and Hodgson.

I thought both were very poor

The question is though PDL....why dont we have them...?

The rules have changed in such a way that behemoths in the set piece can no longer guarantee you a result. You need an agile and mobile who can attend every breakdown or you get cut to shreds. Frankly it's too easy for the attacking team to retain possession now, so an Eddie Jones style of patient multi-phase advance is almost unstoppable and requires a lightning fast athletic back row who are always present for the 5% opportunity when a turn over can be effected without offering up a penalty. (i.e. you can get the ball before the ref gets to the ruck and penalises you).

By the way, anyone else notice how brilliant Borthwick was in the lineout this weekend? England are missing a trick there.

miteyironpaw wrote:The rules have changed in such a way that behemoths in the set piece can no longer guarantee you a result. You need an agile and mobile who can attend every breakdown or you get cut to shreds. Frankly it's too easy for the attacking team to retain possession now, so an Eddie Jones style of patient multi-phase advance is almost unstoppable and requires a lightning fast athletic back row who are always present for the 5% opportunity when a turn over can be effected without offering up a penalty. (i.e. you can get the ball before the ref gets to the ruck and penalises you).

By the way, anyone else notice how brilliant Borthwick was in the lineout this weekend? England are missing a trick there.

What because of his lightening quick agile play around the park?
Or are you suggesting we pick him and keep kicking for territory and hope to pinch the odd line out then rumble the ball over with a slow heavy pack?
Its a bit pointless haveing a lineout leader till England get a hooker who can throw accuratly anyway.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Its a bit pointless haveing a lineout leader till England get a hooker who can throw accuratly anyway.

Hartley's throwing is actually pretty good, especially in an England shirt. It's around the park he's a bit useless as of late, and he's a penalty machine at times.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:The rules have changed in such a way that behemoths in the set piece can no longer guarantee you a result. You need an agile and mobile who can attend every breakdown or you get cut to shreds. Frankly it's too easy for the attacking team to retain possession now, so an Eddie Jones style of patient multi-phase advance is almost unstoppable and requires a lightning fast athletic back row who are always present for the 5% opportunity when a turn over can be effected without offering up a penalty. (i.e. you can get the ball before the ref gets to the ruck and penalises you).

By the way, anyone else notice how brilliant Borthwick was in the lineout this weekend? England are missing a trick there.

What because of his lightening quick agile play around the park?
Or are you suggesting we pick him and keep kicking for territory and hope to pinch the odd line out then rumble the ball over with a slow heavy pack?
Its a bit pointless haveing a lineout leader till England get a hooker who can throw accuratly anyway.

There are options aside from the line out drive. Getting good ball from the back is a key launching point for a back line. England were massively let down in the WC by lack of a lineout both in attack and defense.

miteyironpaw wrote:By the way, anyone else notice how brilliant Borthwick was in the lineout this weekend? England are missing a trick there.

The Saracens lineout was not in form yesterday, it was giving them some pretty ugly ball.

stlowe not sure what game you watched. Saracens didn't lose many lineouts.

It was the quality of the ball beshocked, it was pretty messy on a number of occasions, failing to provide the platform they were after and a couple of times leading to them losing possession immediately after, one of which was a penalty when Spencer got scragged trying to clean things up.

The Saracens lineout is usually more polished than that.

Saracens didn't lose many lineouts

I think he meant that they won it but the ball they won wasn't the best. There's younger lineout technicians who are offering more round the park than Borthwick at the moment.

England are in need of an enforcer not another lineout specialist.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
England are in need of an enforcer not another lineout specialist.

Thank god someone else said it. The very reason Garvey should be in the squad, he's the closest thing we have available at the moment.

I agree with a lot of earlier postings. Depending on whether Wood is fit, my team would be:

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole (though he needs to play better than he did against Ulster)
Palmer
Atwood
Robshaw/Croft (if Wood = injured)
Wood (c.)/Robshaw (c.) (if Wood = injured)
Dowson

Youngs
Hodgson
Strettle
Barritt
Trinder
Ashton
Foden

Bench- Marler
Mears
Parling
Morgan
Dickson
Farrell
Sharples

You need players on the bench who play in a different style to those on the pitch so they can change the game- Marler will be far more useful against a tired pack in the scrum and could be devastating in the loose against tired players. Mears can play fast and loose. Parling can add some grunt. Morgan is more of an explosive player than Dowson and needs "blooding". Farrell can play 10, 12 and 13 to a good level and in different ways than the players starting there, Sharples covers 11, 14 and 15 and is a different player to any of the starters. There is no point in subbing like for like (unless there is an injury) and IMO it is more often at international level that a style of play is not working against an opposite number than that the player is actually poor

bluestonevedder wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
England are in need of an enforcer not another lineout specialist.

Thank god someone else said it. The very reason Garvey should be in the squad, he's the closest thing we have available at the moment.

Agreed, he already looks better than Attwood at the moment. Played very well on the w/end I thought.

Oh, and I would have Croft on the bench if Wood is NOT injured, and might even consider starting Morgan in that case. The back row has a lot of possibilities, but I firmly believe that if possible Robshaw, Wood and Morgan should make up 3/4 spots (inc bench). Whether want the flank cover of Croft, the 8 cover of Dowson, to blood Morgan or stick with experience or to give Clark a go as a true openside will depend a lot on Scotland's backrow and what combination of the above best work in training which only the coaching staff will know. A back-row is all about combining and balance

stlowe wrote:It was the quality of the ball beshocked, it was pretty messy on a number of occasions, failing to provide the platform they were after and a couple of times leading to them losing possession immediately after, one of which was a penalty when Spencer got scragged trying to clean things up.

The Saracens lineout is usually more polished than that.

True. You and Sam are correct. Wasn't as clean as usual.

My back row accepting injuries at present would be: 6. Croft 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan (the only out and out 8 in the EPS, and someone Rowntree almost announced would be starting the other day.

As an aside what about a back row of 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Banahan?!

Chjw131 wrote:

As an aside what about a back row of 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Banahan?!

I think an internationally-accepted attribute of an 8 is that they should be able to charge through a 5'7, 75kg winger for the score, from 2 meters out without being taken to ground. Especially when one is an entire foot taller and 40kg heavier.

Chjw131 wrote:

As an aside what about a back row of 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw

BUT, I do like the idea of those two starting on the flanks together...a lot of power, strength and speed.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

As an aside what about a back row of 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Banahan?!

I think an internationally-accepted attribute of an 8 is that they should be able to charge through a 5'7, 75kg winger for the score, from 2 meters out without being taken to ground. Especially when one is an entire foot taller and 40kg heavier.

Indeed, well said! But perhaps if he is tutored at 8 and realises he has legs and knees that can be used to drive on in the tackle....

haha, it's always a possibility!

I'd have Haskell in the EPS, but I think Wood is a better option overall. He'd be yet another utility back-row too!

Definitely Wood over Haskell at the moment, since Haskell's shot himself in the foot by moving to Japan and Highlanders next season! Wood's the closest thing to a 7 in the EPS, and should start there when fit, alongside Robshaw at 6.

Definitely Wood over Haskell at the moment, since Haskell's shot himself in the foot by moving to Japan and Highlanders next season!

Highlanders over the summer. He should be back in England and playing for Wasps before the AIs. Don't think he'll be ready for the AIs but the 2013 6N he could be in for. If Japan and New Zealand improve him as a player then why not go and play there, careers are short and why not take the money and travel a little while if given the chance.

bluestonevedder wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
England are in need of an enforcer not another lineout specialist.

Thank god someone else said it. The very reason Garvey should be in the squad, he's the closest thing we have available at the moment.

What would you give for one of these lads in their prime eh?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/picturegalleries/9015241/Englands-top-10-enforcers-in-pictures.html

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Highlanders over the summer. He should be back in England and playing for Wasps before the AIs. Don't think he'll be ready for the AIs but the 2013 6N he could be in for. If Japan and New Zealand improve him as a player then why not go and play there, careers are short and why not take the money and travel a little while if given the chance.

Absolutely, I agree with that, which is also part of the reason I feel the RFU's law on overseas players is a tad harsh-but also completely see the positives of enforcing it too. Just thought Haskell's decision was abrupt almost, especially off the back of a fantastic 6N and good personal work cup (in terms of performance, not off-field antics). It will be great to have him back in the Aviva.

Cumbrian wrote:

What would you give for one of these lads in their prime eh?

So much.

Thank god someone else said it. The very reason Garvey should be in the squad, he's the closest thing we have available at the moment.

There's Deacon who is an old school grafter and Lawes who is an athletic smasher but as you say Garvey is the best mix of the two at the moment. Not convinced he is international quality but I'd like to see him get a go to show what he can do. Attwood is another option and is playing well at Bath.

None of them would make the list Cumbrian showed, Deacon being the closest but having the advantage of having trained with two of them.

bluestonevedder wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Highlanders over the summer. He should be back in England and playing for Wasps before the AIs. Don't think he'll be ready for the AIs but the 2013 6N he could be in for. If Japan and New Zealand improve him as a player then why not go and play there, careers are short and why not take the money and travel a little while if given the chance.

Absolutely, I agree with that, which is also part of the reason I feel the RFU's law on overseas players is a tad harsh-but also completely see the positives of enforcing it too. Just thought Haskell's decision was abrupt almost, especially off the back of a fantastic 6N and good personal work cup (in terms of performance, not off-field antics). It will be great to have him back in the Aviva.

The "rule" was simply a reminder that if they were based abroad it would be hard to pick them as England have training camps and rest days outside the IRB window.
Its not stupid to expect your squad to make themsleves available. Is Haskell such a loss to England right now? No, its him whos really suffering. He did want to get back to teh Aviva but his wage demands werent going to be met at that short notice. I do fear he suffers from haing sold his soul to an agent too much, which is a shame because in some ways he strikes as a pretty dedicated guy if a bit dim.

Donut Cirpiani was quoted recently reminding everyone he did get release calls written into his contract which means that Lancaster would have no problems getting him up here for the entiure 6 nations. For some reason he didnt take up that option.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Thank god someone else said it. The very reason Garvey should be in the squad, he's the closest thing we have available at the moment.

There's Deacon who is an old school grafter and Lawes who is an athletic smasher but as you say Garvey is the best mix of the two at the moment. Not convinced he is international quality but I'd like to see him get a go to show what he can do. Attwood is another option and is playing well at Bath.

None of them would make the list Cumbrian showed, Deacon being the closest but having the advantage of having trained with two of them.

Isn't Deacon possibly out for the season Sam? I read somewhere that he has a really bad hamstring tear.

Yeah, it's serious. Cockerill seems unsure and hasn't given any time frame but has said it could be the end of his season. Doubt he'll make the 6N I was just discussing locks in general as I also included Lawes who is also injured.

Real shame for Deacon though as was playing really well in that understated way of his for Tigers.

Fair enough. Although I've never been his greatest fan, I agree with you to be honest, we could really do with his bulk and nous at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question is though PDL....why dont we have them...?

It just seems to be the way it is going at the moment. There seems to be a move in English rugby towards the lighter/ more athletic forwards and larger more bludgeon-ly backs! You can see it in the likes of Matt Mullan, Courtney Lawes, Tom Croft, Tom Guest.

They are great around the pitch, but I do sometimes do get tired of seeing English forwards like these crashing on defences and rucks like waves on stone

P.s. One name I'd like to mischievously throw in is Joe Launchbury. I wonder if he hadn't been injured when he was, how many people would want him included. He was playing VERY well if I recall correctly.