EPS & Saxons

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Senior EPS Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Rob Webber (London Wasps)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

BACKS (14)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Saxons Squad:

FORWARDS (18)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Chris Brooker (Harlequins)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Matt Garvey (London Irish)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Luke Narraway (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Andrew Saull (Saracens)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

BACKS (14)
Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Delon Armitage (London Irish)
Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Karl Dickson (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Ryan Lamb (Northampton Saints)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Leicester Tigers)
Micky Young (Leicester Tigers)

flankertye wrote:Oh is this the first saxons squad Henry Thomas has made?
Very talented young player. Give him a few seasons, hope Sale get their act together and I expect big things from him

Im pretty sure he was in the Churchill squad.

Very much a player whos making his way through the system looking at his record. I fully expect that like PDJ he'll be given a shot at the senior side pretty soon and acquit himself well....then get ignored.

"Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers) and Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby) will join the squad from the Saxons as temporary replacements for Courtney Lawes (knee), Toby Flood (knee), Louis Deacon (hamstring) and Manusamoa Tuilagi (hamstring)."

So put Parling and Attwood in the second row and the job is a good 'un.

I don't rate Botha at all, Palmer looked pretty average at the RWC and with Lawes and Deacon both injured it was between Garvey, Attwood, Parling and Robson for me.

I notice more than a hint of Sarries bias in the squad selection... where's Beshocked when you need him?

What are the Saxons fixtures..who are they playing?

Maybe the idea of Mears being in is that the young pretenders (Grey etc) get full games for the saxons rather than bench time for the full squad as Hartley will most likely start every game...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:A captain doesn't exactly leap out at me from that bunch.

Hartley
Wood
Robshaw
Croft
Cole
Flood
or if you asked him, Danny Cipriani

I'm not convinced, or you are having a larf. A mixture of poor temperaments and inexperience there. And Flood? Captain? Really?

Garunteed starter and most experienced player in the squad in terms of caps, by a long way in likely starting sides.. Fits the profile of a Lancaster man perfectly in terms of his age and professionalism. If youre rejecting the others on grounds of their discipline or experince he'd be the obvious choice.

But no Im not seriously saying he'd make a great capatin, just saying those are the options that stand out.
BTW is Croft inexperienced or of poor temperament?

Still its much better than the situation MJ was dumped with where the only relaistic contender was flipping Borthwick.

His form dipped to the extent that JW suddenly started looking like a good option briefly there for a while again. Flood strikes me as the kind of guy whose head goes down when things are off. I think it would be too much pressure for him frankly, experience or not. I can't imagine him under the posts giving the front five a dousing. I worry that it might take a few seasons for this side to learn how to close out the tight ones.

bluestonevedder wrote:That's nice to hear from a Welshmanwoman rugbydreamer. I know a lot of you were hoping he'd choose Wales, but it's good to know people haven't turned on him purely because of his choice. Bravo.

Corrected that for you

And seriously, we're all so proud of Ben at the Scarlets, he's developed and improved so much with us. Would have been nice if he'd picked Wales but can't fault him for opting for his home country. He's a Scarlet through and through and we'll support him regardless of where he's from. He will also become, I believe, the first ever Scarlet to play for England. You don't know how lucky you are!

Hello Sam. Still as many Tigers as Sarries. As already said I wouldn't have picked Botha. The 5 other Sarries have very good cases though.

It's nice to see a large proportion of the EPS picked from the top 4.

As mentioned on another thread, about as good as we could have hoped given max number of changes etc.
Botha was already in the EPS, so I guess him being dropped was not on of the most necessary changes.
A couple of things concern me though (thinking slightly long term):
- No out and out 7.
- Only 1 recognised 8.
- 4 "utility" back row picks.
- Only 1 true 13 (unless you count Farell), and he's injured.
- Only 1 true FH (unless you count Farell) available. What if Charlie's injured, do we expect Farell to step in at 10 on his debut??

rugbydreamer wrote:Corrected that for you

Oops! I'm sorry!

Bathmad does Flood not count as a true FH!

I thought Dowson has played a fair bit at no 8.

Agree about not having an out and out 7 or 13 though. Also too many 6.5s as you say.

Personally would have had Trinder instead of JTH.

People should realise Lancaster could only make 10 changes from the world cup squad (30), + 2 players to make 32. While 3 other changes could be made due to the retirements of Thompson, Moody and Wilkinson.

I would guess this is the reasons for Mears and Wilson's inclusion. Gray and Doran-Jones being the on-form players.

Deacon is also included but is injured so Attwood and Parling can be called up.

beshocked wrote:Bathmad does Flood not count as a true FH!
I thought Dowson has played a fair bit at no 8.

Agree about not having an out and out 7 or 13 though. Also too many 6.5s as you say.

Personally would have had Trinder instead of JTH.

Hence "available"! By his own admission, Dowson says his best position is 6, but he has been excellent when asked to play 8. Either way, hope he gets some game time as idea is to see what these guys can do, not pick 15 and stick with them exclusively.

bluestonevedder wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Corrected that for you

Oops! I'm sorry!

ha! no worries mate, everyone seems to always make the assumption on here that a poster is a bloke, so I've gotten used to it!

Im pretty sure he was in the Churchill squad.

Very much a player whos making his way through the system looking at his record. I fully expect that like PDJ he'll be given a shot at the senior side pretty soon and acquit himself well....then get ignored. [/quote]


Hahaha, Very true. Until Vickery returns to rugby and steals his place!

Oh right Bathmad fair enough.

I think the biggest problem will be the pack which could struggle. The likes of Mears,Marler and Webber hardly give confidence.

But on the flip side there is a serious amount of pace throughout the team, including in the forwards, so if we play the right game plan, we could cause teams serious problems!

Hmmm a bit disappointed would make the following changes;

Nick Wood for Marler - you can't play International rugby if you can't scrumage..

PDJ for Wilson ( never rated him)..

Gray and Paice replace Webber ( can't throw) and Mears ( too old and scrum is always weaker when he plays) Hooker is a seriously weak area in this squad as Hartley has never convinced me...

Attwood and Parling replace Deacon ( too old and injured) Botha ( old and average).

Wallace for Dowson.. a good player but at 30 too old for his first cap plus England need an proper 7 in the squad.. I would have picked Wallace.

Freddy Burns for C Hodgson .... He has had enough chances and never been ood enough.. lets see what freedy can do..

Jonathan Joseph for JTH... a quality player should be in the England team for the next 10 years.. the potential to be our BOD..

Pbuk agree with most of that but:

Glad the overhyped Wallace hasn't been picked in either squad too. Needs to do more before being considered.

Can't understand the clamour for Attwood personally. Would have definitely preferred Garvey.

Agree with the rest though.

bathmad wrote:But on the flip side there is a serious amount of pace throughout the team, including in the forwards, so if we play the right game plan, we could cause teams serious problems!

Only if the issues England have had at the breakdown over the last few years can be reversed. Otherwise you'll have guys getting isolated (very quickly) and turning over a lot of ball. During the world cup I seriously wondered whether our guys had seen a ruck before.

I was as excited ahead of today's EPS announcement as I've ever been, but I must admit to being slightly underwhelmed - not disappointed though!

Firstly, I'm very happy with the backs. I genuinely feel that is the best set we have at the moment. But it is the forwards that leaves me slightly unsure. Firstly, it may be my cherry one eye, but the fact Nick Wood has been passed over is laughable. There is no doubt Marler is a hot prospect, but he simply isn't an international standard scrummager yet. He needs to have far more Saxons time before making the move up. Woody on the other hand is by far the best scrummaging loosehead England have. Doubts about his loose play are ill-founded as firstly this season he's been here there and everywhere, but in previous seasons it's been largely down to how Glaws have asked him to play - I would ask people not judge him on the Wuss performance alone as Glaws ballsed up their strategy and not Woody, that was the only game he hasn't gone forward all season.

Secondly, we all know England have been lacking a decent 7 for some time. We have a number of very promising hybrids, but we really need to bring a 7 along and Saull had to be in that squad.

It is only 2 gripes, but a solid scrum and an effective backrow are rather important. As I said, not disappointed, just underwhelmed! I may have woken up on the wrong side of the bed today...

beshocked wrote:Pbuk agree with most of that but:

Glad the overhyped Wallace hasn't been picked in either squad too. Needs to do more before being considered.

Can't understand the clamour for Attwood personally. Would have definitely preferred Garvey.

Agree with the rest though.

With regards Wallace maybe you are right but I just want to see one proper 7 in the squad instead of 5 players (clark, Dowson, Croft, Robshaw, Wood) whose best position is blindside flanker ...

miteyironpaw wrote:Only if the issues England have had at the breakdown over the last few years can be reversed. Otherwise you'll have guys getting isolated (very quickly) and turning over a lot of ball. During the world cup I seriously wondered whether our guys had seen a ruck before.

Honestly don't think that will be much of an issue now. The chosen backrow is extremely mobile and tenacious in their rucking. Besides, I think Lancaster and Rowntree will be able to hammer that into the players also. England's glaring lack of rucking-know-how was truly exposed at the WC, and I'm sure it will be one of the first areas to improve.

His form dipped to the extent that JW suddenly started looking like a good option briefly there for a while again.

He performed averagely in one 6N game against Ireland with a pack that was being decimated and a friendly against Wales where his backline made several hideous mistakes (including Tindall and Cueto caught crossing, twice and Banahan unable finish the simplist of chances off). Not my choice as a captain but a good leader on the pitch.

Deacon ( too old and injured)

30 is past it for a lock forward now? Fairly sure most of the best locks in world rugby are in their late 20s and early 30s.

Freddy Burns for C Hodgson .... He has had enough chances and never been ood enough.. lets see what freedy can do..

Because in a midfield with less than 50 caps between them what you really need is a rookie fly half. Hey why not partner Burns and Farrell, combined age of 40 and 0 caps. That's a fair way to see if they have the ability to step up.

Hongkong, you keep your 'cherry one eye' zipped up fella. This is a family place!

HongKongCherry wrote:Firstly, it may be my cherry one eye, but the fact Nick Wood has been passed over is laughable. There is no doubt Marler is a hot prospect, but he simply isn't an international standard scrummager yet. He needs to have far more Saxons time before making the move up. Woody on the other hand is by far the best scrummaging loosehead England have. Doubts about his loose play are ill-founded as firstly this season he's been here there and everywhere, but in previous seasons it's been largely down to how Glaws have asked him to play - I would ask people not judge him on the Wuss performance alone as Glaws ballsed up their strategy and not Woody, that was the only game he hasn't gone forward all season

I don't think your being biased here, from what I've seen the best 2 english loose-heads this season have been Wood and Mullen. I can see why Corbisiero was retained (he's proved he can proform at international level) but what if he gets injured in the run up to the Scotland game and Marler starts? Euan Murray will obliterate him.

I think I will cry if Botha and not Parling starts against Scotland.

I agree to being a little underwhelmed by some of the forward selections.

Carpe Diem wrote:Hongkong, you keep your 'cherry one eye' zipped up fella. This is a family place!

On the plus side, it does mean I am no longer talking out of something slightly further south!

I wouldn't worry too much about not having an out and out 7 lads. The only recognised scavenging 7 that starts in a six nations team is probably Warburton. When you play the southern hemisphere sides then you might need one.

pbuk0 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Pbuk agree with most of that but:

Glad the overhyped Wallace hasn't been picked in either squad too. Needs to do more before being considered.

Can't understand the clamour for Attwood personally. Would have definitely preferred Garvey.

Agree with the rest though.

With regards Wallace maybe you are right but I just want to see one proper 7 in the squad instead of 5 players (clark, Dowson, Croft, Robshaw, Wood) whose best position is blindside flanker ...

True. Clark is definitely an outside bet. If a proper 7 was to be picked it would have to be Saull but he is only starting to build up some good form now.


Gowales Warburton is an excellent 7 though. The Welsh backrow of Lydiate,Warburton and Faletau has good balance.

What about Barclay?

gowales wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about not having an out and out 7 lads. The only recognised scavenging 7 that starts in a six nations team is probably Warburton. When you play the southern hemisphere sides then you might need one.

Are you trying to say that England will beat Wales despite Warburton knicking all their bread!

The pessimism of my 1/8 welsh brethren is suprising considering the mid WC euphoria.

There is a lot to worry about with this squad, its really hard to know which way it will go.

What about Barclay?

Barclay isn't really a scavenger, hes definetley a 7 but hes more a linking man and grafter. A bit like Moody used to be and now Wood.


Are you trying to say that England will beat Wales despite Warburton knicking all their bread!

France and South Africa still manage to regularly beat us without a scavenger! I think the need for one is overhyped. Although i do like having Warburton in our side because he is an excellent player and fits into the game plan. I don't think England have such a player... yet.

I would say its mostly good though Peter....with maybe 5 bad or questionable selections. ....

gowales wrote:France and South Africa still manage to regularly beat us without a scavenger!

Brussow is one of the best scavengers there is! And Dusaitoir is more typically a 7 wearing 6, than a true 6. He's brilliant over the ball too!

beshocked wrote:Clark is definitely an outside bet. If a proper 7 was to be picked it would have to be Saull but he is only starting to build up some good form now.

I'm wondering if his pick is anything to do with Lancaster policy of versatile players on the bench with Clark covering second row and blindside (and 7 & 8 at a push). Only thing I can think of as he's not even first choice at Saints when fit although he did keep Dowson on the bench for a few games at the start of the season. Don't get me wrong he seems a good player, strong in the tackle, good hands for a forward and generally a traditional blindside but I'm surprised by the call up and would have preferred Saull in there as the best out and out 7 available to England and so some variety if a game warranted it. As others have stated there are a lot players in that squad whose first choice position is 6. I always thought Clark would make the full England team one day but it's a few years sooner that even as a Saints fan I expected.

Versatility could also be one of the reasons he rates Dowson so much as he can play all 3 back row rolls to decent standard (he's started in all 3 positions in top HC games).

bluestonevedder wrote:

gowales wrote:France and South Africa still manage to regularly beat us without a scavenger!

Brussow is one of the best scavengers there is! And Dusaitoir is more typically a 7 wearing 6, than a true 6. He's brilliant over the ball too!

We still lose to them when they've played Smith and Burger thought haven't we?

Dusautoir is a 6.5 but again France still beat us when they have a backrow of say Bonnair Harinordoquy and Picamoles.
And remember England beat us in the last 6 nations when they had 2 blindsides playing.

gowales wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about not having an out and out 7 lads. The only recognised scavenging 7 that starts in a six nations team is probably Warburton. When you play the southern hemisphere sides then you might need one.

Ahem - what are Barclay and Rennie if not recognised scavenging 7s?? One of them will certainly start.

Personally I see no issue with using Wood at 7, he's pretty handy on the floor competing for ball, I don't see it as a weak link. Had Saull been setting the world on fire this season he'd be in the squad, but despite a couple of decent performances lately, he hasn't been consistent enough this season to merit a spot. Similarly Wallace at Quins. Too soon for international rugby.

The big issue for me is loosehead. Marler's scrummaging isn't good enough yet for an international prop. I like his approach to the game and his abilities in the loose, and he's not far off, but Mullan for me should be in the EPS.

Murray wouldn't boss Mullan, but I'd back him to give Marler nightmares, especially with Big Jim Hamilton shoving behind him.

gowales wrote:What about Barclay?

Barclay isn't really a scavenger, hes definetley a 7 but hes more a linking man and grafter. A bit like Moody used to be and now Wood.

He is a scavenger - no question.

But we've got Gethin Jenkins who is an awesome scavanger (and centre, flyhalf and sometimes a decent prop).

Good to see that Morgan will (more than likely) be winning caps without being based in England - hopefully he'll do well (ish - but def not against Wales) and won't need to move from the Scarlets to further his international career.

gowales wrote:And remember England beat us in the last 6 nations when they had 2 blindsides playing.

As an Saints fan I still maintain that Wood's best position is 7. He may not be a traditional opneside but he seems to play his best rugby there (and Mallinder seems to agree as well).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

gowales wrote:What about Barclay?

Barclay isn't really a scavenger, hes definetley a 7 but hes more a linking man and grafter. A bit like Moody used to be and now Wood.

He is a scavenger - no question.

If you say so I haven't seen him steal much ball in the past. I will look out for it in the future.

B91212 wrote:

gowales wrote:And remember England beat us in the last 6 nations when they had 2 blindsides playing.

As an Saints fan I still maintain that Wood's best position is 7. He may not be a traditional opneside but he seems to play his best rugby there (and Mallinder seems to agree as well).

I think Wood's best position is 7 as well. There will be nothing wrong with a backrow of 6 Robshaw 7 Wood and 8 Morgan.

I agree, Woods is best at 7. He makes a real pest of himself at the breakdown, and wins a lot of ball.

Harinordoquy is a 7 as well when he plays in the backrow. He's so good because he's a 7/8 hybrid, but wins so much ball at the breakdown.

gowales wrote:

I think Wood's best position is 7 as well. There will be nothing wrong with a backrow of 6 Robshaw 7 Wood and 8 Morgan.

100% agree. I hope that is the starting backrow. Croft as an impact sub could really hurt tired teams.

Hello Sam. Still as many Tigers as Sarries. As already said I wouldn't have picked Botha. The 5 other Sarries have very good cases though

Hmm I can't see that Stettle, Stevens or Farrell would be starting but they are good enough squad players for the national team. Given Flood's injury Hodgson was a certainty and Barritt's form made him a certainty as well. Botha is a pretty dodgey pick in my opinion, he's not really in form and looked pretty lost during the pre-RWC friendlies. Alex Goode called up as cover for injuries is a pretty strange one, out of form and not really an option for the 10 shirt.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Hello Sam. Still as many Tigers as Sarries. As already said I wouldn't have picked Botha. The 5 other Sarries have very good cases though

Hmm I can't see that Stettle, Stevens or Farrell would be starting but they are good enough squad players for the national team. Given Flood's injury Hodgson was a certainty and Barritt's form made him a certainty as well. Botha is a pretty dodgey pick in my opinion, he's not really in form and looked pretty lost during the pre-RWC friendlies. Alex Goode called up as cover for injuries is a pretty strange one, out of form and not really an option for the 10 shirt.

Strettle could start on the left wing. Straight shoot out between him and Sharples. Been in good form recently.

Farrell could start but probably won't and probably shouldn't.

Alex Goode isn't out of form anymore in my opinion. Like Saull he is starting to rediscover some of his old spark.

bluestonevedder wrote:

gowales wrote:

I think Wood's best position is 7 as well. There will be nothing wrong with a backrow of 6 Robshaw 7 Wood and 8 Morgan.

100% agree. I hope that is the starting backrow. Croft as an impact sub could really hurt tired teams.

I still think I want Croft at 6 and Robshaw on the bench but I wouldn't be upset if your backrow starts against Scotland. Teams wouldn't want the ball to go into touch too often if the team contained Palmer, Parling (please please not Botha), Wood & Croft.

My thoughts are that Strettle will in fact start on the left wing (with Ashton on the right so Andy Farrell gets the chance to see it in action before next season!) and Sharples on the bench as back 3 cover.

B91212 wrote:I still think I want Croft at 6 and Robshaw on the bench but I wouldn't be upset if your backrow starts against Scotland. Teams wouldn't want the ball to go into touch too often if the team contained Palmer, Parling (please please not Botha), Wood & Croft.

I don't really think Croft and Wood can operate on both flanks, because they are too similar in stature. I think if you start Robshaw and 6 and just let him play his normal game (tackling anything that moves, carrying, hitting rucks, clearing rucks, etc), that would allow Wood to play the 7 role, following the ball and scavenging. If Croft were to start alongside Wood, Wood would be forced to carry out more of the 6 duties, because Croft's natural game isn't orientated towards to tighter work.

bluestonevedder wrote:I don't really think Croft and Wood can operate on both flanks, because they are too similar in stature. I think if you start Robshaw and 6 and just let him play his normal game (tackling anything that moves, carrying, hitting rucks, clearing rucks, etc), that would allow Wood to play the 7 role, following the ball and scavenging. If Croft were to start alongside Wood, Wood would be forced to carry out more of the 6 duties, because Croft's natural game isn't orientated towards to tighter work.

A fair argument although Salvi still seems to get through plenty of Scavenging for the Tigers but I do understand what your getting at. I'm 99% convinced that Robshaw will make the step up to international rugby but just can't seem to be totally sure for some reason. I really hope he does, he was immense against Saints last Friday and would be a serious asset to the England team if he does.

Salvi's a good point. I hope Robshaw makes the transition too, because I think he could be a phenomenal player. His work-rate is second to none, and that's exactly the sort of player England were missing during the WC.

HERSH wrote:Maybe Botha was a typo, what it should say is Borthwick.

HERSH

Will you shut up about BORTHWICK? He is not in the squad and nor should he be.