Scotland put two fingers up at the IRB and Shingler trains with them despite him not being allowed to play for Scotland...!!!

First topic message reminder :

A SRU spokesman has confirmed that Shingler has been participating in training.

"We have made no secret of the fact that Steven Shingler is part of our Six Nations squad and continues to be so," a SRU spokesman told the Scotsman. "The IRB ruled he cannot play or tour for Scotland and we have appealed that decision but what we have done is invite him to our training camp and he has taken up that offer.

"Steven Shingler has been in St Andrews to meet the Scotland squad. As he played on Sunday afternoon he follows the protocol of all players who were in match action which meant he did not train."

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/158141.html

maestegmafia wrote:Will be interesting round the Shingler house over sunday lunch after his big brother is capped by Wales in the coming weeks.

Is it the big brother who only qualifies for Wales through residency?

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Will be interesting round the Shingler house over sunday lunch after his big brother is capped by Wales in the coming weeks.

Is it the big brother who only qualifies for Wales through residency?

That and his parents.

Anyway they wont be at dinner together, theyll be training with their teams....

Yes - one with Wales one with London Irish

I though they had a Scottish parent and an English parent? Out of the two brothers, the Scottish one was born in Wales and the Welsh one was born in England.

ha, yeah that's about it Hammer. Aaron has lived in Wales for years and years though.

HammerofThunor wrote:I though they had a Scottish parent and an English parent? Out of the two brothers, the Scottish one was born in Wales and the Welsh one was born in England.

That is correct - so Aaron qualifies for Wales in the same way as Tuilagi, Hape and Flutey qualify for England.
Would be interesting to see if some of the more hysterical Welsh posters have any historic comments on these 3 gentlemen!

I think he may have lived in Wales a lot longer then those 3 have lived in England, Malky.

Was there any reason really to bring that up?

If Steve was born there I'm guessing Aaron can't have been much older than 2 when he moved.

Actually Flutey might have an English grandparant (he's not sure). Also he played for the Maoris against the Lions don't you know (no he didn't)

Dreamer, probably more than them put together

rugbydreamer wrote:I think he may have lived in Wales a lot longer then those 3 have lived in England, Malky.

Was there any reason really to bring that up?

Just being a wee bit mischevious

ha, thought as much malky!

I just saw that and thought argh no! I've had a guts full of this Shingler situation already, without that all starting up again

HammerofThunor wrote:I though they had a Scottish parent and an English parent? Out of the two brothers, the Scottish one was born in Wales and the Welsh one was born in England.

Cant your parents be residency qualified though? Ie if they lived in Wales long enough do they get considered Welsh for qualification of their children?


It would be so much easier if you lot just accpeted this was Briatin and did away with these "quaint" regional sides.

IanBru wrote:
Secondly, not to get bogged down into a mire of poopie, I presume that Shingler always knew he was Scottish, and didn't just 'discover' it. I don't suppose his mother just mentioned her ancestry out of the blue!

Apparently when Shingler woke up every morning he would get out of the right side of bed. One morning (a few weeks ago), he woke up and exited his bed on the left side. It was at this very moment that Steve looked in the mirror and said to himself; "I want to play for Scotland. I have found my scottishness."

Unfortunately there are factors that put Steve's 'lifelong ambition' in a shadow of doubt. Factors such as being made aware (as made clear by the IRB and passed on to the WRU) that playing for Wales U20(the designated international 2nd team) against the France U20 team would tie him to Wales. Steve is very highly thought of Wales, hence him being asked to model the Wales U20 jersey (the jersey would not fit Morgan).

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Cant your parents be residency qualified though? Ie if they lived in Wales long enough do they get considered Welsh for qualification of their children?

No. You could in theory have a parent and two grand parents who all represented a country without being eligible for it yourself. The rules say your parents have to be born in a country.

"Shingler played in the 2011 Wales V France U20 game, knowing he'd be tied to Wales if he played, he knew this but declined to sign some kind of document which confirms he understand he can only play for Wales from this point onwards. that is why the argument has happened because Shingler thinks by not signing the document he didn't really tie himself to Wales, despite being told he would be if he played. "

strange scenario isnt it- why make someone sign something if it makes no difference if you sign it or not!

The IRB would already have checked all documentation when they reached their initial decision.
They will not change their mind on this issue.

why make someone sign a document if its just the irb law?

he obviously has a case, and that is due to the obviously flawed IRBs legal admin

You can refuse to take the breathalyser but they will still do you.

What if the WRU told him not signing it would mean he would still be unattached though?

Cymroglan wrote:You can refuse to take the breathalyser but they will still do you.

your not using a good example.

a better example which might make you understand my point would be.

if someone hasnt been read there rights when arrested, they can get away with murder!

They would not have lied to him they had no reason to lie to him when he was telling the world how Welsh he was.

look all i know is that- in my line of work if a sub contractor doesnt sign that they have been health and safety trained- they havent been health and safety trained and the problem is with me, if they have signed it the problem is with them wether they have been trained or not.

now i understand its the other way around logic- however- you dont make people sign stuff if you dont make it a requiremnet that you have to sign when briefed of a certain legal position

Cymroglan wrote:They would not have lied to him they had no reason to lie to him when he was telling the world how Welsh he was.

Haven't we gotten past this already

the only way to look at this clearly is from the legal side of things- dont let emotions get involved

It's you that suggested that the WRU lied to him.

mystiroakey wrote:the only way to look at this clearly is from the legal side of things- dont let emotions get involved

And no doubt the IRB would have done that.

the problem is that he was allowed to play without signing the document, he shouldnt have been allowed to play, the IRB like FIFA are a world and law to themselves, howwever the case could theoritically be taken to an international/independant court with independant judges

irb could proove that signing a document is immaterial and players shouldnt be allowed to use ignorance as an excuse.

scotland and shingler could try and proove that the IRB/wales havent done enough to inform the concerned about his position, and the only proof that they have ,would be a signed document, which should have been implemented as it obvioulsy is supposed to be implemented.

He was told if he played in the match that he would be tied to Wales even by refusing to sign all that means is that he was aware that by playing he would be tied.
All he needed to do was not play in that match and he would be a free agent.

i totally understand your point- however i see the other side as well- I am no scotland or wales fan- i am not involved, i just find it interesting and i feel as though scotland should appeal, because i think they have a case

i also think its very easy to have a pop at a 20 year old forgetting about what it was like when your 20, people make mistakes, if he cant play for scotland he wont play anywhere- it seems a massive shame if thats the case.

Ah Strokey, you're back from exile on the tiddlywinks/golf board? . Thank you for your intervention tho. I have it on v good authority that the Scots have lodged a vigorous defence of their position with the relevant IRB committee

thats good , i hope he gets to play for scotland- however not before saturday

No chance, he might pass the ball rather than hoof it down field, so wouldn't fit in with our Poopie gameplan

mystiroakey wrote:i also think its very easy to have a pop at a 20 year old forgetting about what it was like when your 20, people make mistakes, if he cant play for scotland he wont play anywhere- it seems a massive shame if thats the case.

WRU have not said he wont be selected for Wales if he proves he is good enough in the future
WRU are just saying he is not eligible to play for Scotland as he is already tied to Wales.

i suppose he could allways win the case with scotland's help, then refuse to play for them and try and get in the england side;)

Fair shout, would stop the need for overseas recruitment at IC for England!

In order to play for Scotland he now has to sign an IRB declaration which includes a confirmation that he has not played for another national team or the nominated second team of another nation (or words to that effect). But he has.......so he can't!

Like Cymro said, the ruling was clear and all he needed to do was not play that game. Why are you hoping he plays for Scotland? Is there any particular reason?

Seagultaf wrote:In order to play for Scotland he now has to sign an IRB declaration which includes a confirmation that he has not played for another national team or the nominated second team of another nation (or words to that effect). But he has.......so he can't!

so how did he play for wales?

he and scotland have a case and even if they dont they still have a chance at rewritting the rules- if it goes to appeal- which it will , it could be judged on its own merits.

the loop hole scotland/shingler are trying to exploit is the problem with the declartions in the first place- therefore what shingler has to sign to play for scotland is a moot point, if he wins he can play for scotland, if he doesnt he cant

Morgannwg wrote:Like Cymro said, the ruling was clear and all he needed to do was not play that game. Why are you hoping he plays for Scotland? Is there any particular reason?

my point has no bearing on nationality at all, it boils down to the fact that he is a good player that wants to play for scotland and i feel if he doesnt he has snubbed wales to the point that he wouldnt get in that team anyway, or even if he did it could affect the morale of the team.

I will be 100% honest i wouldnt be so pragmatic if it was an english under 20 player who went for another team. I would in all probalilty be biased

His desire to play for Scotland is at least questionable. He certainly hasn't done himself any favours with our selectors, it would be at least a year or two before he gets a look in with Wales, he isn't completely out of the picture.

mystiroakey wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:In order to play for Scotland he now has to sign an IRB declaration which includes a confirmation that he has not played for another national team or the nominated second team of another nation (or words to that effect). But he has.......so he can't!

so how did he play for wales?

he and scotland have a case and even if they dont they still have a chance at rewritting the rules- if it goes to appeal- which it will , it could be judged on its own merits.

the loop hole scotland/shingler are trying to exploit is the problem with the declartions in the first place- therefore what shingler has to sign to play for scotland is a moot point, if he wins he can play for scotland, if he doesnt he cant

Yeah but scotland had till last friday to launch that appeal, as of thursday they hadnt. Since then there has been no news on the appeal and Shingler isnt in the squad for Saturday. I think its case closed unless a scottish fan can update us and confirm that the appeal went in on friday?

Posted again

its a tough one to work out why he played for wales then a couple of years later wants to play for scotland, the lad is a very good player, so i honestly believe he feels more scotish than welsh,Maybe its a simple case of him playing for wales at under 20 level because he was born there and picked and didnt think much else about it. i may be completely wrong- but he could have felt exactly the same as michael owen who played schoolboy welsh football or ryan giggs who played english schoolboy football. If he feels as though scotland is the country that will give him the best chance of getting in the team(mercenary style), then i dont think he will feature in the welsh side ever because he hasnt got the correct mentality

TycroesOsprey wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:In order to play for Scotland he now has to sign an IRB declaration which includes a confirmation that he has not played for another national team or the nominated second team of another nation (or words to that effect). But he has.......so he can't!

so how did he play for wales?

he and scotland have a case and even if they dont they still have a chance at rewritting the rules- if it goes to appeal- which it will , it could be judged on its own merits.

the loop hole scotland/shingler are trying to exploit is the problem with the declartions in the first place- therefore what shingler has to sign to play for scotland is a moot point, if he wins he can play for scotland, if he doesnt he cant

Yeah but scotland had till last friday to launch that appeal, as of thursday they hadnt. Since then there has been no news on the appeal and Shingler isnt in the squad for Saturday. I think its case closed unless a scottish fan can update us and confirm that the appeal went in on friday?

I understand that the appeal has been submitted to the relevant committee, Tycroes

Cymroglan wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2092340/Chris-Foy-Steven-Shingler-digs-IRB-deny-him.html

The above confirms this

not looking good for shingler. He really shoudnt have listened to Derwen Jones.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the Daily Mail - they don't normally let fact get in the way of an article

The IRB review of the case won't happen until later this year so i cant see him being any importance to Scotland.

The kid should just knuckle down and try and impress himself on Wales who are looking for a creative midfield player in an ideal world.

He could be the man. But lets see him get some decent games under his belt and press for caps.

He should also look to move back to one of the Welsh regions to do so. I am sure he is of less interest to London Irish now that he is unable to pose as an English Qualified player either.

I see we haven't really moved on since the other thread. How about we just flip a coin to see what team he plays for. Heads Scotland win, tales Wales lose.