Scotland put two fingers up at the IRB and Shingler trains with them despite him not being allowed to play for Scotland...!!!

by maestegmafia Fri 27 Jan 2012, 5:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

A SRU spokesman has confirmed that Shingler has been participating in training.

"We have made no secret of the fact that Steven Shingler is part of our Six Nations squad and continues to be so," a SRU spokesman told the Scotsman. "The IRB ruled he cannot play or tour for Scotland and we have appealed that decision but what we have done is invite him to our training camp and he has taken up that offer.

"Steven Shingler has been in St Andrews to meet the Scotland squad. As he played on Sunday afternoon he follows the protocol of all players who were in match action which meant he did not train."

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/158141.html

by RubyGuby Mon 30 Jan 2012, 12:58 pm

I think you're all looking in the wrong direction here - Surely we have to blame the mother thumbsup

by HERSH Mon 30 Jan 2012, 12:59 pm

Never played in the English Prem only the Welsh, and NL1/Championship.

I have done a little bit of coaching in the Jeff for a couple of teams and I'm pretty sure there is always lawyers and club officials in the background to guide the younger players on important decisions that they make, does seem strange that a Professional Union wouldn't have made these players aware of the importance of playing for Wales under 20's with regards to full international honours.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:05 pm

HERSH wrote: I'm pretty sure there is always lawyers and club officials in the background to guide the younger players on important decisions that they make, does seem strange that a Professional Union wouldn't have made these players aware of the importance of playing for Wales under 20's with regards to full international honours.

Doesnt mean he got good advice though does it, anymore than whoever told the WRU they just had to inform the players then everything would be fine and dandy.

by Morgannwg Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:05 pm

Well that's how your club businesses operate. The Regions and WRU are different. This is slightly amusing HERSH, you would have a go at the WRU for eating a bagel for breakfast wouldn't you? The IRB laws are crystal clear for anyone who:

a. Has a pair of eyes.
b. Can read.

by HERSH Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:15 pm

It is also clear to anyone that isn't just here to satisfy there xenophobic views that this isn't as clear cut as it seems.

"The Regions and WRU are different."

What, unprofessional?

by miteyironpaw Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:18 pm

http://www.rugbydump.com/2008/07/602/nz-maori-snatch-pacific-nations-cup-from-australia-a

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16783174.stm

I don't see how one is allowed and Shingler isn't. It seems that England will actually play Scotland with these two apparently identical situations will have two different outcomes.

by maestegmafia Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:22 pm

NZ Maori is not the ABs A Side it is an invitational team. Ricky Flutey has also played for them.

by HERSH Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:23 pm

So there is a case for the SRU lawyers to get there teeth into. Yahoo

by miteyironpaw Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:26 pm

maestegmafia wrote:NZ Maori is not the ABs A Side it is an invitational team. Ricky Flutey has also played for them.

And the same should apply for Flutey. If there was no Junior AB side that year and the Maori instead played in the same competitions usually played for by the Junior ABs, then I see it as a rose by any other name. Or should that be a silver fern by another name. It's flouting common sense. And it's an insult to the intelligence of fans and aspiring young English lads alike.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:29 pm

Morgannwg wrote:I think it was all BS maes, like his online postings.

HERSH, did you neglect the rest of what I said then orrr..... ?

I am amazed how people, i:e; yourself and the scottish can claim how Shingles feels more Scottish than Welsh in the space of...a week! . Personally, I think it was more of a case of not being selected for Wales so take whatever else you can get. That's the sour grapes there. All the WRU has done is comply with the rules set out by rugbys governing body. Slag them off and have a pop as much as you desire but you can't beat facts and that is where you are getting shown up.

Morgan, that's a daft comment - the lad believed (whether true or not) that he was keeping his senior options open at the time of the JWC last summer - he was clearly considering which way to jump back then

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:31 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:

Our players have to work their way into the team, this isn't Scotland where amateurs like Dan Parks can just walk into the team.

Yet Henson can walk strait back into the squad after what 3 games for the same team in 2 years, and shingler is not considered even being hyped as one of the next golden generation?

I think Henson is a bit/a lot better than Parks... Why would Shingler be hyped up in that manner, he has not done anything of note to deserve the hype where as Gavin Henson did when he was Steve's age. I don't agree with the Henson inclusion btw, but you should note that this is just the training squad that is to be slimmed down.

Hmm, he must have done something of note to convince the WRU to put him in their shirt advert alongside some of the greatest 10s to grace the Welsh stand-off jersey?

by Irish Londoner Mon 30 Jan 2012, 1:43 pm

Just a thought - if only a few sides actually run an "A" team anymore, from what's posted above it seems only to be Ireland, England and Scotland, the SH sides only seem to have one on an "ad-hoc" basis and Wales and France don't either, would it be more sensible to do away with "A" teams and have the qualification as U-20 or first team ?
For tours and things like the Churchill Cup (or whatever replaces it) then have the U-20 side plus a certain percentage of overage players, who presumably would be already qualified.
Regarding the actual idea of Shingler going up to St. Andrews to meet the team, if as expected the IRB rule in favour of Wales, what a rotten thing to do to the bloke, like the bit at the end of Bullseye when Jim Bowen used to say "and lets see what you could have won...."

by TrailApe Mon 30 Jan 2012, 2:49 pm

Well it wouldn't be sensible to "do away with" A teams - some Unions see them as very important, but I agree that the qualification rule should be the same across the board. Either ALL u20's (not just those who don't have an A-side) or ignore anything unless it's the senior side you are turning out for.

Personally I think u20's is a bit early, especially when you consider that the age spread within an u20's side could include kids a lot younger than 20.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 30 Jan 2012, 2:51 pm

Right which is why the IRB made a clear ruling thats sides could be nominated as an A team on a year by year basis, but this needs to be done properly at the time and communicated.
Games played between two official A sides count as an A game. Its hardly controversial is it?

by RubyGuby Mon 30 Jan 2012, 2:55 pm

So ask yourselves this one : How old were you when you decided what country you wanted to play for?? I think people are complicating something that's pretty simple and pretty obvious - Any confusion directly correlates to "maybe if I opt for that country then I've got a better chance of getting a cap" - Simples, leave the lawyers out of it. thumbsup

by HERSH Mon 30 Jan 2012, 2:56 pm

At least the ladies have quietened down. Very Happy

by Irish Londoner Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:03 pm

IMHO once you turn out for country at any level above schools you should be committed to that nation, if Shingler had won a full cap for Wales instead of a U-20 one I'd greatly doubt if he would be feeling very Scottish at present.
Admittedly the rules need revision/clarification but I wonder where all these young people who don't know what nationality they are come from, they all seem to be sportspeople of some kind though - I've not heard of any young people confused about whether they should join the Sinn Fein, the SNP or Plaid Cymru (apologies for the spelling if it's wrong) as they are nort sure if they are Irish, Welsh or Scottish nationalists.
This all sounds a bit like the young lady who got herself 15 minutes of fame last week by sending a rejection letter to Oxford (elitist, public school dominated, out of touch, etc.) after she realised she wasn't going to get in, I noted that she hadn't done the same the previous year when turned down by Cambridge as presumably she would have been quite happy to go there if only she's got in.
P.S. Love the TT divsional flash. guinness

no brown dog icon :-(

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:03 pm

RubyGuby wrote:So ask yourselves this one : How old were you when you decided what country you wanted to play for?? I think people are complicating something that's pretty simple and pretty obvious - Any confusion directly correlates to "maybe if I opt for that country then I've got a better chance of getting a cap" - Simples, leave the lawyers out of it.

Ruby, that might be fairly easy in your case or indeed my own, but with Shingler's background, it is perfectly feasible that he was undecided at the time of last year's JWC and wished to leave his options open?

by Morgannwg Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:07 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Morgan, that's a daft comment - the lad believed (whether true or not) that he was keeping his senior options open at the time of the JWC last summer - he was clearly considering which way to jump back then

He had never said he was keeping his options open at any point. It suddenly emerged that he had said that only when this eligibility row was brought to the surface. That's strange. Do not see why the truth is daft, As.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hmm, he must have done something of note to convince the WRU to put him in their shirt advert alongside some of the greatest 10s to grace the Welsh stand-off jersey?

Oh dear come on, they were promoting jerseys and Shingler was probably the only lad who would do it free of charge. This hardly gives your point credibility if any at all.

by maestegmafia Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:08 pm

RubyGuby wrote:So ask yourselves this one : How old were you when you decided what country you wanted to play for?? I think people are complicating something that's pretty simple and pretty obvious - Any confusion directly correlates to "maybe if I opt for that country then I've got a better chance of getting a cap" - Simples, leave the lawyers out of it.

If Shingler had of had aspirations of preferencing Scotland over Wales at U20's level he could have played for Scotland at U20s in stead of Wales. He would have known full well that Wales had several inside centers around his age he would compete with, most from his former club, some he played alongside, as well as flyhalves and fullbacks.

On recent performances though i could see Shingler making a very good Welsh inside center. I think he has been badly advised if he thinks his Welsh chances are over. Far from it.

by TrailApe Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:09 pm

Games played between two official A sides count as an A game. Its hardly controversial is it?.

Well it is if you are Welsh and play the French one week and the English the week after - one binds you to the WRU and one doesn't. And if you are focussed on the upcoming games, wondering about that girl you can see out the window or looking forward to your tea (or just a bit plain dozey - like me) and didn't listen to that bloke that turned up at the end of a tactics sesh and burbled on about a load of twaddle, you might not be fully aware of the consequences.

but this needs to be done properly at the time and communicated

100% totally agree.

Hopefully the one thing that will come out of this mess is a rule that will stop all of these shennagins and also satisfy international employment law.

by HERSH Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:11 pm

Shinglers Law.

by RubyGuby Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:15 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:So ask yourselves this one : How old were you when you decided what country you wanted to play for?? I think people are complicating something that's pretty simple and pretty obvious - Any confusion directly correlates to "maybe if I opt for that country then I've got a better chance of getting a cap" - Simples, leave the lawyers out of it.
Ruby, that might be fairly easy in your case or indeed my own, but with Shingler's background, it is perfectly feasible that he was undecided at the time of last year's JWC and wished to leave his options open?

by TrailApe Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:23 pm

no brown dog icon :-(.

As much as I loved that label, since they shut down the brewery and moved production across the Tyne to Gateshead ( Erm

) and then shut that brewery down, I don't thing the Dog label is relevant to Newcastle any longer.

I'm not sure but I think they lost the European "Protected designation of origin" status, so anybody in Newcastle can now brew a brown ale and call it Newcastle Brown Ale, although there will always be only one broon dog.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:25 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Morgan, that's a daft comment - the lad believed (whether true or not) that he was keeping his senior options open at the time of the JWC last summer - he was clearly considering which way to jump back then

He had never said he was keeping his options open at any point. It suddenly emerged that he had said that only when this eligibility row was brought to the surface. That's strange. Do not see why the truth is daft, As.

Yes, he has - he stated to the SRU that he refused to sign what he believed was some sort of commitment document at last year's JWC for that very reason

Morgannwg wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hmm, he must have done something of note to convince the WRU to put him in their shirt advert alongside some of the greatest 10s to grace the Welsh stand-off jersey?

Oh dear come on, they were promoting jerseys and Shingler was probably the only lad who would do it free of charge. This hardly gives your point credibility if any at all.

Look, somebody in the WRU thought he showed enough promise to be worthy of being considered for that role

by TrailApe Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:45 pm

Shinglers Law..

Class! Very Happy

by Irish Londoner Mon 30 Jan 2012, 3:55 pm

Shinglers List drumroll

by IanBru Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:13 pm

For those suggesting that this is case is open and shut, it's worth looking at the guidance notes to the IRB's Regulation 8:

6. How do I know which team is a Union’s next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team?
There should be no uncertainty over which team constitutes a Union’s next fifteen-a-side senior National Representative Team since, as from January 1 2000, Unions are required to notify the IRB of the name of its nominated next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team. The team nominated remains the Union’s next fifteen-a-side senior National Representative Team for a period of 4 years. The identity of a Union’s next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team can be verified with the Union concerned and/or the IRB.

Further, it is the duty of the union to explain the status of their respective teams, and which matches will commit them players to a union, as stated in in Schedule 1 (Explanatory Note):

Players should be made aware by Unions of what constitutes that Union's Senior National Representative Team, its next Senior National Representative Team, its Senior Touring Squad and its next Senior Touring Squad and the Matches that will result in a player being committed to that Unions

A number of things may have happened:
Shingler may have asked the WRU whether the France U20 team was the 'next senior team' and-
(a) been told that they were - in which case, I presume that the IRB's ruling stands;
(b) been told that they weren't - in which case the WRU have misled Shingler and are liable for a breach of Regulation 8; or
(c) been told that they were, but that by refusing to sign the form, he wasn't committing himself to Wales - in which case, the WRU are also liable.

We simply do not know at the moment which of these possibilities took place.

It is worth pointing out, in defence of Shingler, the WRU, the SRU, and 'the lawyers', that there is no list on the IRB website that designates which are the respective nations' 'next senior teams'. It simply states that the IRB and the union concerned can verify the status of their team at the relevant time. It is also worth noting that France already have an 'A' side, and have had one for the last few years. It just so happens that France's U20 side are designated as their 'next senior team'. Again, there is no way to find this out, except by calling up the FFR or the IRB.

Bearing in mind that France have an 'A' side, were the WRU or Shingler supposed to call up the IRB for clarification? Further, is Shingler committed to Wales if he has been misled (either intentionally or unintentionally) about whether the game against France U20 would bind him? (Note: I'm not accusing the WRU of actually misleading him, but pointing out that this is an eventuality for which the IRB do not provide an outcome)

The 'form' that must be completed is NOT a statement by the player that he is committing himself to a particular Union. It is simply a statement by the player and the union that the player is eligible to play in the upcoming match. The union is under a duty to 'certify to the IRB that each Player selected to represent the senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of the Union or its National Representative Sevens Team during the past year has completed, in full, the declaration form and that each Player was eligible to represent the Union in accordance with the provisions of Regulation 8.'

I'd argue that the real fault with regulation 8 is that it assigns a duty on the union to ascertain the designation of relevant teams before a match, but doesn't provide an easily-accessible list of which team is the 'next senior team'. If Shingler's apparent uncertainty is the result of an inability by the WRU to get a clear answer from the IRB over this issue, then the WRU shouldn't be sanctioned, and Shingler shouldn't be committed to Wales. To do so would be highly unfair on both.

The inconsistent existence of U20 and 'A' teams may be annoying, but it is inevitable. We can't force all countries to have 'A' teams, particularly when they don't all compete in competitions. At the same time, we shouldn't (in my opinion) tie players to a particular nation by playing an U20 match, particularly when not all U20 matches have this effect.

Note: Regulation 8, along with its explanatory notes and the famous 'eligibility form', can be downloaded from the IRB website here:
http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328%5fpdf.pdf

by Morgannwg Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:14 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Yes, he has - he stated to the SRU that he refused to sign what he believed was some sort of commitment document at last year's JWC for that very reason

Look, somebody in the WRU thought he showed enough promise to be worthy of being considered for that role

Of course that is what happened. But since when do they need to sign documentation? The rules were clear, they were stated at the time. This dispute is the fault of Shingler, SRU and the Agent. As I said earlier you need to let go because you're looking really desperate.

You look, it was a guy trying on an U20's jersey... And it offers your comments no credibility.

by IanBru Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:19 pm

Morgannwg wrote:But since when do they need to sign documentation? The rules were clear, they were stated at the time. This dispute is the fault of Shingler, SRU and the Agent.

Morgannwg, all I can do is quote from the guidance notes to Regulation 8:

On 1 December each year, each Union must certify to the IRB that each Player selected to represent the senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team of the Union or its National Representative Sevens Team during the past year has completed, in full, the declaration form and that each Player was eligible to represent the Union in accordance with the provisions of Regulation 8

by Morgannwg Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:20 pm

Thanks Ian.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:43 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Yes, he has - he stated to the SRU that he refused to sign what he believed was some sort of commitment document at last year's JWC for that very reason

Look, somebody in the WRU thought he showed enough promise to be worthy of being considered for that role

Of course that is what happened. But since when do they need to sign documentation? The rules were clear, they were stated at the time. This dispute is the fault of Shingler, SRU and the Agent. As I said earlier you need to let go because you're looking really desperate.

You look, it was a guy trying on an U20's jersey... And it offers your comments no credibility.

by TycroesOsprey Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:46 pm

No news on the SRU having lodged an appeal. They had till last friday have they actually done it?

by Morgannwg Mon 30 Jan 2012, 4:52 pm

Is that it As? Come on, fourth choice fly-half a the Scarlets, 2nd choice at London Irish and Scotland are bending over backwards to try and capture him?

by IanBru Mon 30 Jan 2012, 5:11 pm

Morgannwg, he'd be fifth choice fly-half for Scotland!

I think it's been said repeatedly that he'd play at inside centre.

by **George Carlin** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:32 am

AlynDavies wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I never heard why but how come Loxton and Jarvis were freed to represent Ireland?

Because they werent told officially that playing for Wales U20 against France U20 in 2010, that they would become inelgibile for another country. The WRU only told Toby Faletau this as they didnt know about Loxtons or Jarvis duel eligibility.

So from 2010 the WRU tells anyone before a France U20 game they will be declaring for Wales only when they play against France U20's.

Shingler played in the 2011 Wales V France U20 game, knowing he'd be tied to Wales if he played, he knew this but declined to sign some kind of document which confirms he understand he can only play for Wales from this point onwards. that is why the argument has happened because Shingler thinks by not signing the document he didn't really tie himself to Wales, despite being told he would be if he played.

That is weird. Why try and make him sign something if there's no need for him to do so?

A lawyer's 'belt and braces' approach, surely. However, that does seem to suggest that nobody is really sure of the effect of the regulation, hence the reason for the appeal which I hope will provide a detailed analysis of the rule and stop everyone here getting so livid.

We need to re-direct our vitriol back where it belongs: Inverdale's condescension, Healey's scarves, Sky's cycloptic coverage, the issue of why Andrew Cotter sounds like someone has tied his scarf too tight to his larynx, why Brian Moore is a misunderstood genius.

by gowales Tue 31 Jan 2012, 7:45 am

Maybe the WRU led him to be believe that if he signed it he wouldn't be tied to Wales. The WRU could get in to some trouble if that is the case.

by maestegmafia Tue 31 Jan 2012, 8:41 am

George Carlin wrote:
That is weird. Why try and make him sign something if there's no need for him to do so?

Why would he play for all the Welsh age group levels if he had ambitions of being a Scot...?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 31 Jan 2012, 8:50 am

maes, how can you seriously ask that question? The lad qualifies for 3 countries, what on earth was to stop him playing for the nearest and most obvious one until he'd made his mind up? Numerous players have done similar things - Martin Johnson being the most obvious one, but also other like Tom Palmer in the England set-up, both Evans' brothers in the Scotland one, and I'm sure you can find an example with Wales?

by Irish Londoner Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:06 am

What part of playing for Wales at every level including that just below full international doesn't tie you to Wales regardless of whether you've signed a letter of commitment? You've benefitted from their coaching, their investment, their time and effort, you've appeared in advertisments wearing the shirt, you've taken their money and expenses, and as far as we know has never made any effort to contact the SRU to try for selection to the Scottish side until they come to you just after you've not made the Welsh squad and suddenly you "find" your Scottishness.
The only thing I would say is that when he wouldn't sign they should have thrown him out of the team there and then.
I don't blame the WRFU and fans for being a bit upset by all this.
Also regarding the canard that he might not have been paying attention when the WRFU went through the nationality and commitment stuff - he's a professional athlete if he can't devote five minutes to listening to something that important because he's "looking out the window a passing girl" then his problem.
Nothing personal against the lad but it's an awful inditement of how casually some people in rugby see the privelidge of playing for your national side as something that can be traded for professional short term gain.
On the thread regarding England getting in various motivational speakers to talk to the players about being an international, someone said that the only motivation you should need is putting on the white shirt and representing your country - do you think Shingler is going to belt out Flower of Scotland with any sort of feeling or belief ?

P.S. Brian Moore is not a misunderstood genius, he's just a genius Very Happy

by RubyGuby Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:22 am

Good post Londoner - Nice to see there's still some common sense out there - Brian Moore just says it as it is and I like that - In my profession if you are really confused about whether you are welsh, scottish or whatever then you are usually consigned to the psychosis queue!

thumbsup

by TrailApe Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:31 am

A little poem to the genius.

It's called "Brian Moore - a modern prop forward in the game of Rugby Union Football" and can be orated to the rythm of 'Here We go'

Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Moore
Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Mooooooore
Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Moore
BRIAN MOORE BRIAN MOORE!

I thank you.............

My next work is to be entitled "Was George North Responsible for the unusual solar activity that created the recent display of the Aurora Borealis over Duridge Bay in Northumberland" - not ready yet though.

by RubyGuby Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:36 am

I want to see what tune you use for the George North one thumbsup

by IanBru Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:40 am

OK, I'm going to say this one more time:

The form that Shingler didn't sign is NOT a declaration of allegiance, nor a committal to a particular union. The form is a declaration by player and union stating that the player is eligible to play for a particular union.

- If Shingler was told by the WRU that the form would commit him to Wales, and that by refusing to sign he was avoiding this, then the WRU have misled Shingler.
- If the WRU have fielded Shingler, but are unable to produce a copy of the declaration (with supporting documentation) at the IRB's request, then the WRU are guilty of a breach of Regulation 8.

The form can be found on page 18 of this document:
http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328%5fpdf.pdf

by IanBru Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:42 am

Irish Londoner wrote:and as far as we know

Can this phrase be dropped into every statement of meaningless conjecture we make about Shingler? It would certainly raise the level of debate!

Secondly, not to get bogged down into a mire of poopie, I presume that Shingler always knew he was Scottish, and didn't just 'discover' it. I don't suppose his mother just mentioned her ancestry out of the blue!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:43 am

TrailApe wrote:A little poem to the genius.

It's called "Brian Moore - a modern prop forward in the game of Rugby Union Football" and can be orated to the rythm of 'Here We go'

Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Moore
Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Mooooooore
Brian Moore, Brian Moore, Brian Moore
BRIAN MOORE BRIAN MOORE!

I thank you.............

My next work is to be entitled "Was George North Responsible for the unusual solar activity that created the recent display of the Aurora Borealis over Duridge Bay in Northumberland" - not ready yet though.

Trail

- I can barely contain myself!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 31 Jan 2012, 9:43 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:maes, how can you seriously ask that question? The lad qualifies for 3 countries, what on earth was to stop him playing for the nearest and most obvious one until he'd made his mind up? Numerous players have done similar things - Martin Johnson being the most obvious one, but also other like Tom Palmer in the England set-up, both Evans' brothers in the Scotland one, and I'm sure you can find an example with Wales?

England and Scotlands coaches?

by maestegmafia Tue 31 Jan 2012, 10:28 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:maes, how can you seriously ask that question? The lad qualifies for 3 countries, what on earth was to stop him playing for the nearest and most obvious one until he'd made his mind up? Numerous players have done similar things - Martin Johnson being the most obvious one, but also other like Tom Palmer in the England set-up, both Evans' brothers in the Scotland one, and I'm sure you can find an example with Wales?

Asking that question is no big deal at all...

I know plenty of kids who are brought up by Welsh parents living in England and Ireland who played Welsh Junior level rugby. They weren't looking at their prospective options for an international career, they were trying to get caps for their country.

Will be interesting round the Shingler house over sunday lunch after his big brother is capped by Wales in the coming weeks.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 31 Jan 2012, 10:32 am

maestegmafia wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:maes, how can you seriously ask that question? The lad qualifies for 3 countries, what on earth was to stop him playing for the nearest and most obvious one until he'd made his mind up? Numerous players have done similar things - Martin Johnson being the most obvious one, but also other like Tom Palmer in the England set-up, both Evans' brothers in the Scotland one, and I'm sure you can find an example with Wales?

Asking that question is no big deal at all...

I know plenty of kids who are brought up by Welsh parents living in England and Ireland who played Welsh Junior level rugby. They weren't looking at their prospective options for an international career, they were trying to get caps for their country.

Will be interesting round the Shingler house over sunday lunch after his big brother is capped by Wales in the coming weeks.

More interesting than normal? English-born father, Scots-born mother, two lads raised in Wales?

by **George Carlin** Tue 31 Jan 2012, 10:39 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:maes, how can you seriously ask that question? The lad qualifies for 3 countries, what on earth was to stop him playing for the nearest and most obvious one until he'd made his mind up? Numerous players have done similar things - Martin Johnson being the most obvious one, but also other like Tom Palmer in the England set-up, both Evans' brothers in the Scotland one, and I'm sure you can find an example with Wales?

Asking that question is no big deal at all...

I know plenty of kids who are brought up by Welsh parents living in England and Ireland who played Welsh Junior level rugby. They weren't looking at their prospective options for an international career, they were trying to get caps for their country.

Will be interesting round the Shingler house over sunday lunch after his big brother is capped by Wales in the coming weeks.

More interesting than normal? English-born father, Scots-born mother, two lads raised in Wales?

I foresee a new film adaptation of this story: "Shingler's List". drumroll

by Sponsored content