Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

This practise that referees have of diving into the pocket at every possible opportunity is actually getting beyond a joke,roll on the day-sooner the better- when the referee can instead of issuing a yellow card like in this instance with Ferris,just award the penalty and put it on report for the citing commissioner to determine if any further punishment is warranted.
Luckily for those watching the game,in the stadium or around the world the yellow card didnt determine the outcome of the game,but that is more through good luck than good management....

1. Wales were good value for the win. They went from their own 22 to ours with 14 men without too much effort. They looked like scoring again.

2. Nothing wrong with Ferris' tackle. Barnes lost the plot. Have seen them given before but more often than not it's play on.

3. Warburtons red though harsh was a much worse tackle.

4. Didn't see Ryan incident

It was frightening just how easily Wales got to Irelands 22 leinster.

Everytime Priestland got the ball i was panicking. ROG is fine to bring on to close a game out but he was beaten a few times by Priestland in the build up.

I dont think that Barnes lost the plot, i honestly feel that he thought that it was dangerous at the time. No yellow but can easily be seen as a penalty.

martyr_94 wrote:
He tipped his leg over the horizontal line, meaning he was tipping him onto his neck. Regardless of whether his leg was on the floor, the man is almost 7ft for god sake he's bound to have one leg on the floor.

Landing on your neck can not be the criteria for dangerous tackling because landing on the neck is possible in any type of tackle if the conditions are right for goodness sake. If I run full pelt at someone and there shoulder takes me at the legs my momentum will see my upper body (ie neck) hit the ground before the rest. If landing on the neck was deemed to be foul play then the ref wouldnt allow anyone to catch the ball in the air because they have a huge risk of serious injury from collisions and landing on your upper body.

The criteria has to be
-if the player was lifted (no longer touching the ground)
-if the player was taken over horizontal
-if the player was not controlled back to the ground safely.


NO DANGER. NO PENALTY.

thomh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:It was definitely a penalty............. the intent was to tip backwards and drive down, its clear as day. If Ian Evans wasn't about 10ft tall with about 6ft legs !! he would have been on his back.

Yellow card unfortunately yes!!............ its all about intent

No it isn't nor can it be. It's impossible to judge someone's intent, and basing punishment on intent doesn't allow for certain things such as recklessness. Someone may not intent to illegally tackle someone, but if they are being careless they still warrant punishment. Conversely, what if someone did intend to do an illegal tackle but was so incompetent that they didn't managed it?

I agree that there are angles where this tackle looks very bad, and it probably did warrant a penalty. I just don't think you can develop a rule that is based on intent.

Which is why the rule isnt their to punish intent. Its their to ensure that all tacklers use technique that minimises the chances of it happening.
The intent of the IRB weas to see this, like charging, driven out of the game altogether.

Whether he intended to tip the player or not isnt the question, the question is did he? If so card and possible citing. That is the law, and its their to respond to specific injury statistics...just like charging at rucks.

Penalty offence but not yellow card.It is irrelevant if it was a yellow or not.

beshocked wrote:Penalty offence but not yellow card.It is irrelevant if it was a yellow or not.

I sort of agree, I don't think it was a penatly or a yellow card. But Wales were making ground on us far too easily so. There was going to be a penatly or a drop goal eventually.

Well done Wales, the best team won on the day.

beshocked wrote:Penalty offence but not yellow card.It is irrelevant if it was a yellow or not.

How can a legitimate tackle be a penalty?

At the end of day, we all know what happened, should Bradley Davies had a red card ? In my opinion Yes. Was Ferris's tackle worthy of a penalty ? In my opinion again Yes. Were Wales the better side on the day ? Again Yes. So in conclusion, the Irish posters on here calling for foul play should remember that their side are no angels and have made a reputation of "bending the rules" so to speak. There were cheap shots comming from all angles, and when Bradley Davies quite rightly get's his citing and legnthy ban justice will be served, as for the final score, leys just say the best team on the day won. Becuase in times to come when we look back all it will say is Wales 23 Ireland 21.

roddersm wrote:

beshocked wrote:Penalty offence but not yellow card.It is irrelevant if it was a yellow or not.

How can a legitimate tackle be a penalty?

It wasn't deemed a legitimate tackle. That's the whole point! The man's leg was lifted up. Penalty but no yellow.Maybe it was harsh but Barnes was well within his rights to do so.

Ireland should have put the game to bed when they made it 21-15. Sexton should have nailed the conversion to make Ireland more than 1 score ahead.

Anyway I thought Ireland and Wales played their part in a cracking test match with plenty of twists and turns. Well done Ireland and Wales.

eirebilly wrote:It was frightening just how easily Wales got to Irelands 22 leinster.

That was the big problem. ROG's restart was far too long. We naively thought we could contain Wales in their own half and close out the game.

We needed to be bolder as we were winning short restarts all day. Once Wales got into our half we were in serious trouble so the penalty was neither here nor there because the winning score it was always coming you felt.

That and Bowes fumble into touch, which gave Wales the lineout for Davies try, were the two turning points that cost us the game in my opinion.

The other big mistake was the penalty Sexton tried to kick from within our own half. Poor call. We were so seldom in Wales half that we needed to use the few opportunties we had to put them under pressure better.

If I were welsh I would feel somewhat vindicated by the way things were dealt with. I defended Rolland in the RWC but Pearson there, knowing the context as well, sees a worse incident and recommends yellow. The inconsistency is wild and couplethat with pearson s dubious reffing of ulster v Clermont then if he isn't dropped from he elite ref panel there is something wrong.

On ferris, I don't think it was a penalty as he didn't lift him. I'm not objective in this though and looking at it again it was silly of ferris to even give barnes the chance to make that call.

Outcome of the game was fair and if anything flattered Ireland.

Standulstermen wrote:Outcome of the game was fair and if anything flattered Ireland.

Agree on that but don't agree that it was a penalty. If thats a penalty then we should just stop playing the game.

It was textbook head on tackle. The player wasn't lifted, driven downwards or dropped and the players upper body didn't hit the ground first. It wasn't dangerous and there is no rule that says the players feet can't come of the ground.

The booing that followed was a disgrace though.

Nothing wrong with Ferris' tackle. Barnes lost the plot. Have seen them given before but more often than not it's play on.

Bit harsh on Barnes, he didn't see the Davies tackle (which was worthy of a red) and was only told it was a tip tackle that should be punished with a penalty and a yellow card by Pearson the assistant. Fair enough Barnes follows the recommendations from the person who saw it. Ferris lifts the leg and brings the hips above the shoulder, it's in no way dangerous but Barnes has in his mind that he's given a yellow to one team for a tip and there's another one right there so he tries to be consistent.

We know it's not consistent as we get to see the replays but Barnes doesn't he only has what his assistant has told him from the first incident and what he's seen from the second. Really I think what we have to ask is why did Ferris try something that stupid that late in the game? There was no need for it 2 mins on the clock and Wales have a 10 who is too injured to kick properly. Going to be easy to target the drop kickers, just watch for Halfpenny or Hook stepping into first receiver.

eirebilly wrote:It was frightening just how easily Wales got to Irelands 22 leinster.

Everytime Priestland got the ball i was panicking. ROG is fine to bring on to close a game out but he was beaten a few times by Priestland in the build up.

I dont think that Barnes lost the plot, i honestly feel that he thought that it was dangerous at the time. No yellow but can easily be seen as a penalty.

We certainly did give up that territory fairly easily. That shouldn't happen. Wasn't that impressed with our defense or attack. In in attack it really is time we used two layers of runners. Sexton should mix things up a bit more too. We are too flat and lateral. Thought we could have tried a blitz defense on the welsh too.

Priestland is a great player. Plus George North really is a beast of a guy. Incredibly big. Those guys look like certain lions.

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Outcome of the game was fair and if anything flattered Ireland.

Agree on that but don't agree that it was a penalty. If thats a penalty then we should just stop playing the game.

It was textbook head on tackle. The player wasn't lifted, driven downwards or dropped and the players upper body didn't hit the ground first. It wasn't dangerous and there is no rule that says the players feet can't come of the ground.

The booing that followed was a disgrace though.

Errrrmmm - yo might be a tad embarrassed when you see it again

He was lifted, his leg went above his hips. his hips above his head and he was dropped his upper body hitting the floor first- it does not have to be driven into the ground to be a penalty.

As an England fan who loathes anything to do with Welsh Rugby, all i can say is that i felt Ferris's tackle was fair, and should not have been given a yellow, let alone a Red.

The man that he tackled, had one leg on or near the ground at all times during Said tackle, and for me it was another example of over zealous officiation.

Yep, I'm with you EW, it surely was not a tip tackle. One leg was on the ground. There was no lifting. Just a crazy decision by Barnes.

english warrior wrote: As an England fan who loathes anything to do with Welsh Rugby, all i can say is that i felt Ferris's tackle was fair, and should not have been given a yellow, let alone a Red.

The man that he tackled, had one leg on or near the ground at all times during Said tackle, and for me it was another example of over zealous officiation.

You with loathe us even more after Feb 25th.

Complain about the laws then not the reffing. Buy the laws it was a penalty

Of course Ferris' tackle was a penalty. What he did was against the laws. Check them out.

Yellow was harsh though. Not sure if that's an IRB Directive again though.

TJ wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Outcome of the game was fair and if anything flattered Ireland.

Agree on that but don't agree that it was a penalty. If thats a penalty then we should just stop playing the game.

It was textbook head on tackle. The player wasn't lifted, driven downwards or dropped and the players upper body didn't hit the ground first. It wasn't dangerous and there is no rule that says the players feet can't come of the ground.

The booing that followed was a disgrace though.

Errrrmmm - yo might be a tad embarrassed when you see it again

He was lifted, his leg went above his hips. his hips above his head and he was dropped his upper body hitting the floor first- it does not have to be driven into the ground to be a penalty.

I'll have to watch it again. My recollection was that his leg/hip hit the ground first and he came down side ways. Ferris did not drive him or drop him. If it happened as you say its a penalty but that is not how I remember it.

Consider this:

Team A takes the ball into contact and sets up a ruck, Team A has a defender standing over the ball and Team B flanker goes through the gate to clear out the defender. He can’t push him straight back so he grabs him by one leg and levers him away from the pillar position by twisting his body. It’s a move you see a few times every game, it’s no different to Ferris’s tackle I reckon.

But as I said earlier, I don’t think it made much difference, something had to give, Wales just strolled up the pitch with the ball, if ever there was a time to abandon the drift defence I’d say 1 point up with 2 mins on the clock was it.

roddersm wrote:

I'll have to watch it again. My recollection was that his leg/hip hit the ground first and he came down side ways. Ferris did not drive him or drop him. If it happened as you say its a penalty but that is not how I remember it.

He doesn't have to eb dropped or drived for it to be apenalty / yellow card!!!!! Check out the 3rd section:

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/news/newsid=2059102.html

He was lifted and his shoulder was at best horizontal with his lower body. = Dangerous.

The difficulty that refs have these days is that things happen so quickly they can look like one thing but the replay shows another thing. Bradley Davies should have been a red but whether or not Ferris should have been sent off or not is irrelevent as I believe Wales would have won anyway.

The try came with 14 men and even without Davies we were breaking your defence.

The fact that Davies and Ferris' tackles were met with the same on-field punishment is ludicrous. Davies was instant red, Ferris' wasn't worthy of the yellow in my opinion.

bluestonevedder wrote:The fact that Davies and Ferris' tackles were met with the same on-field punishment is ludicrous. Davies was instant red, Ferris' wasn't worthy of the yellow in my opinion.

Yes perhaps. But that's what you get when Dave Pearson is invovled in rugby union.

I think the most telling question is: would you want to be a ref?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Plus George North really is a beast of a guy. Incredibly big. Those guys look like certain lions..

It's his body positions going into contact and his footwork that impress me. The Irish defenders just couldn't seem to get into contact on there terms and so were being knocked back or barged past, Bowe couldn't seem to get near North in defence. On that form North is a certainty for the Lions.

It’s a move you see a few times every game, it’s no different to Ferris’s tackle I reckon.

All depends on the anlge and height of the leg lift.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
He doesn't have to eb dropped or drived for it to be apenalty / yellow card!!!!! Check out the 3rd section:

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/news/newsid=2059102.html

He was lifted and his shoulder was at best horizontal with his lower body. = Dangerous.

I know the rules chunky I just don't believe that Ferris tackle meets any of the above criteria. It was a text book head on tackle that you teach kids at school. It was perfectly safe and legitimate.

In fact I think I'll cancel any thoughts of a comeback because if thats an offence then I won't be on the pitch very much.

I thought the penalty decision was harsh on Ireland - To add more irony to proceedings Bradley Davies probably won the game for Wales as I don't believe Ferris would have atempted such a tackle if Bradley hadn't performed his act of violence on Ryan - It was a revengeful and primal reaction from Ferris who knew he was in trouble immediately - Still harsh for me though but the best team on the day would not have won then.

I think the vast majority of irish posters accept that the Ferris incident was not why we lost the game. Wales were better and deserved to win.

Most of us can see why Barnes thought it was a tip tackle.

Some of us are just trying to figure out if the tackle was actually even illegal from a "cold light of day" kind of perspective.

No griping. No whinging. Just asking why it was a penalty.

The player was not lifted (just his leg) and most folk accept it was not dangerous so why was it a penalty?

That is the question here.

MrsP wrote:

The player was not lifted

Yes. He was.

That therefore answers your other questions.

leinsterbaby wrote:1. Wales were good value for the win. They went from their own 22 to ours with 14 men without too much effort. They looked like scoring again.
2. Nothing wrong with Ferris' tackle. Barnes lost the plot. Have seen them given before but more often than not it's play on.

Agree with this. I think Evans body position going into contact was the reason for the ungainly nature of Ferris's hit but as 1F was horizontal himself when he made the tackle it seems crazy that it was considered a penalty. In every other spear tackle I have seen the tackler has been standing when the impact occurred. In this one Evans fights to stay on his feet and 1F fights to put him to ground. Something we call a tackle, although ungainly. Desperate decision in my view. Hope it's ok that I added a couple of snaps of the incident:

http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/watermarked-b/Library/SF811/592303.jpg

http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/watermarked-b/Library/SF810/592196.jpg

Chunky Norwich wrote:

MrsP wrote:

The player was not lifted

Yes. He was.

That therefore answers your other questions.

Only if the definition of lifting is extended actions where one of the player's feet stay on the ground.

roddersm wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
He doesn't have to eb dropped or drived for it to be apenalty / yellow card!!!!! Check out the 3rd section:

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/news/newsid=2059102.html

He was lifted and his shoulder was at best horizontal with his lower body. = Dangerous.

I know the rules chunky I just don't believe that Ferris tackle meets any of the above criteria. It was a text book head on tackle that you teach kids at school. It was perfectly safe and legitimate.

In fact I think I'll cancel any thoughts of a comeback because if thats an offence then I won't be on the pitch very much.

Rodders .. I suggest you read the notes in the Brits citeing regarding the legitimacy of using these coached techniques

http://www.ercrugby.com/images/content/ERC_Decision_Hearing_Schalk_Brits_Saracens.pdf


Whne it comes down to it ists the outcome thats being punished by the card, not the intent. The citeing panel then looks at the intent to decide if it the action occured because of intent or merely recklesness.
But any action that leads to a plyer being tipped dangerously is reckless, and warrants a card under the current laws. It no longer even requires for the head or neck to be the point of contact with the ground.

Why? Because statisticaly its one of the most likely causes of severe injury in rugby, and it is possible to tackle people without doing it. The IRB banned toip tackles, they kept happening, so they increased the sanction. If coaches keep coaching dangerous techniques ( or rather as this suggests dont coach their approriate use) blame them not the refs. The referees are their to enforce the laws, not decide how the game is played.

The only argument would be did he tip him enough to warrant a yellow?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

MrsP wrote:

The player was not lifted

Yes. He was.

That therefore answers your other questions.

Lifting a player is not a penalty offence. Look at the photos, if thats a penalty we may as well play tag rugby for the rest of the competition.

I can just see the faces of weight lifters everywhere if you were to suggest that it was just as good if they lifted one end of the bar!

Ok - Just watched it again on Iplayer. Its not as bad as some but its a penalty I am sure

Still pic here - looks very damming - but not the whole story

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6828882833/

I think it's disappointing that with a contact sport such a rugby, simply lifting a player whilst following through with a powerful, strong hit is deemed as dangerous play. There was no malice in Ferris' hit from what I can see. He didn't drive him into the ground, and personally I don't think it was exposing the player to any more danger than a game of rugby does anyway. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but that's the way I feel. People can quote all the laws they like, but there are always grey areas. In real-time play, I don't think the tackle looks any more than a great hit.

roddersm wrote:]

Lifting a player is not a penalty offence. Look at the photos, if thats a penalty we may as well play tag rugby for the rest of the competition.

100% agree.

It'll be interesting to see if he's cited/banned. Davies should get at least 12 weeks starting. If Ferris gets no ban that it'll have been deemed a dangerous tackle at worst (I don't think it was even that). If he gets a few weeks then it suggests the citing panel see it as a tip tackle.

Why the feck would he be cited? It shouldn't even have been a penalty!

Lifting a player is not a penalty offence. Look at the photos, if thats a penalty we may as well play tag rugby for the rest of the competition..

The photos show Ferris lifting the players leg above his hips and hence forcing his body weight to come down on his upper body. As it happens there is no drive or drop and so the player has returned to ground safely and it is likely to be a 50/50 call. A leg is lifted to an illegal height by a player but the tackle itself is not really endangering the player being tackled. Technically a penalty and a yellow are warranted but with a bit of common sense it could be let go.

I still think Barnes had it in the back of his mind that he'd given a penalty and a yellow for a tip tackle he'd not seen (hence not knowing the severity of it) and here was a tip tackle (admittedly a low end of the scale one) so he felt he had to be consistent.

bluestonevedder wrote:I think it's disappointing that with a contact sport such a rugby, simply lifting a player whilst following through with a powerful, strong hit is deemed as dangerous play. There was no malice in Ferris' hit from what I can see. He didn't drive him into the ground, and personally I don't think it was exposing the player to any more danger than a game of rugby does anyway. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but that's the way I feel. People can quote all the laws they like, but there are always grey areas. In real-time play, I don't think the tackle looks any more than a great hit.

Its not though. Lifting them and causing them to be tipped is. Its quite possible to lift someone and minimise the risk of them being tipped.

Why? Because statiscs have shown it to be a high cause of injuries.
Lifting tackles can be done safely, players just have to show some degree of consideration in when they do them or risk sanction. That they kept ignoring that ruling is why the sanctiosn were increased.

This particular incident is a different case, you may well argue that it shouldnt have been punished under the laws. But thats differnet to argueing as to what the laws are, and to what they should be which is another debate again.

TJ wrote:Ok - Just watched it again on Iplayer. Its not as bad as some but its a penalty I am sure

Still pic here - looks very damming - but not the whole story

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6828882833/

That is a penalty aaaall day long.

There is no rule which says lifting is an offence!

Dangerous Lifting is an offence! Was it dangerous? No.

The player came down horizontally onto his elbow. That is not dangerous and it is not an offence under any IRB law.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I think it's disappointing that with a contact sport such a rugby, simply lifting a player whilst following through with a powerful, strong hit is deemed as dangerous play. There was no malice in Ferris' hit from what I can see. He didn't drive him into the ground, and personally I don't think it was exposing the player to any more danger than a game of rugby does anyway. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but that's the way I feel. People can quote all the laws they like, but there are always grey areas. In real-time play, I don't think the tackle looks any more than a great hit.

Its not though. Lifting them and causing them to be tipped is. Its quite possible to lift someone and minimise the risk of them being tipped.

Why? Because statiscs have shown it to be a high cause of injuries.
Lifting tackles can be done safely, players just have to show some degree of consideration in when they do them or risk sanction. That they kept ignoring that ruling is why the sanctiosn were increased.

This particular incident is a different case, you may well argue that it shouldnt have been punished under the laws. But thats differnet to argueing as to what the laws are, and to what they should be which is another debate again.

It's not what PSW?? Might help to elaborate. I understand that it's a high cause of injuries. I understand a player can be lifted and players should minimise the risk of injury by safely returning the lifted player to the ground safely, with their head and shoulders out of the way. Ferris in my eyes, lifted the player, maybe to slightly above 90, but returned him to the ground without driving him. Davis on the other hand, was the epitome of a dangerous tip tackle, with malice and ill-consideration.

roddersm wrote:There is no rule which says lifting is an offence!

Dangerous Lifting is an offence! Was it dangerous? No.

The player came down horizontally onto his elbow. That is not dangerous and it is not an offence under any IRB law.

It was dangerous. Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials. It's been clampned down, and several players have been cited this season for identical tackles. The fact Ferris chose not to heed these as a warning is his fault.

Who are these "several players" Chunky?

I would be very interested in hearing about them and seeing their "identical tackles".