Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

MrsP wrote:I have said many times that I can understand why Barnes thought it was a tip tackle. He only got to see it once in real time and had to make a call.

I can live with that.

The problem I have is with those who had the chance to watch it many times in slow motion from several angles and still insisted it was a dangerous tip tackle.

Even when you explain why it could not have been, talk them through it frame by frame, post the definition from the IRB they still insist it was a tip tackle and call you names for suggesting otherwise.

Some even going so far as to suggest that Ferris deserved the same ban as Davies.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Numpties, MrsP, don't waste your time

I'm sure the irb will have to come out and refute that statement from mick kearney. Otherwise they are basically saying barnes was wrong. If Kearney has misinterpreted what was said and gone public there may be a rebuke coming his way.

I have feeling the Irish management will cling to this to try and take pressure off kidney and co when in fact we were soundly beaten, at home, again.

Cymro,

This is what I was talking about!

.MrsP wrote:
For those of you who insist this was a tip/dangerous tackle.

From the Skysports web site.


"Following analysis of the video evidence and consideration of the explanation for the tackle, the three-man independent Six Nations disciplinary committee chose not to uphold the citing.

Ferris was given a yellow card for by referee Wayne Barnes for the tackle but will face no further action and will be available for Ireland's clash with France on Saturday.

Ferris reacted to the decision on Twitter by saying: "Thank goodness that is all over. Happy man."

Grievance

But Ireland's sense of grievance over the manner of their defeat will only have intensified, after manager Michael Kearney revealed the hearing felt Ferris' tackle did not justify the penalty that Leigh Halfpenny landed to win the game.

"We are delighted that Stephen has been totally exonerated of ANY wrongdoing by the disciplinary panel and that he is now available for selection against France," Kearney said.

"While we understand and fully support the stance to stamp out dangerous tackles in the game to make it safe at all levels, the disciplinary panel itself felt the decision to award the penalty was incorrect and we also felt that it was a fair and legitimate tackle by Stephen.




Questions?

by Taffineastbourne Today at 8:49 pm


Ifs and buts and maybes.If Murray had been penalised/carded?? for dropping the knees on JD2 who knows????
We suck it up and march on.

Oh dear goodness Ireland becoming the new England?!!

Blaming the ref and crying off when they get beat.

View, this is a nonsense free zone - I'm afraid you'll have to leave

If only it was simple

view,

Where did the Irish blame the ref for the defeat?

It is the Sky Journo who inserts the word GRIEVANCE.

The team manager merely expresses his delight that Ferris has been exonerated and that they can focus on the next match.

Nonsense free zone? looking back over 90% of these jumped up ill informed comments from the Irish i would say the nonsense is flowing like the champagne on Prince Harry evening out.

Im trying to get my head round this. Does ferris being cleared mean the panel didn't think the tackle was a tip tackle in which case they didn't think it was a penalty, or that it was a Penalty but not bad enough to warrant a ban? Either way I'm just happy he's able to play Saturday.

The Irish team manager has reported that they said it wasn't even a penalty.

If that's the case then that " jumped up ill informed comments" comments looks a little... I'll informed

Maybe he was being ironic...

Sorry Maddog,

You seem to have spelt that wrongly there!

It's spelt mo..... no i!

Jeez, this is still going on?

Well, I'm not Irish, so I guess that means I can say" You wuz robbed!"

OK, I said it, but only for fun. Watch the taclke over and over, and each time I come down on the side saying it was a close call, but didn't think it a penalty. Ferris got off, whiich is appropriate for someone who didn't commit a foul.

But I have a little sympathy for the referee too. Things happen so quickly in can be hard to register everything correctly.

Grey, I think that's most sensible people's opinion on it. Not a penalty but close and easy to see why it was given in real time from one particular angle.

Maddog wrote:Im trying to get my head round this. Does ferris being cleared mean the panel didn't think the tackle was a tip tackle in which case they didn't think it was a penalty, or that it was a Penalty but not bad enough to warrant a ban? Either way I'm just happy he's able to play Saturday.

Id assumed they were happy that the on field punishment was enough, but it appears to be another like the Stephen Jones case. The Irish released a statement sayiong they had declared it an incorrect call ( and theres some lurid headllines in the Irish press today). They normally publish detailed findings from the hearings, so when they go up we can find out the exact truth of the matter.
But right now it does seem to be a case of excusable mistake by the ref, possibly not helped by him having to card someone in earlier in the game for an offence he didnt see at all.

Seriously if this fixture next year has the Chuckle Brothers officiating on it I wouldnt blame the teams for refussing to take the field.

Absolutely!

This isn't about the result of the game at all.

The Irish team, the Irish team manager and the vast majority or Irish fans accept that Wales were better on the day and deserved to win no matter about the officals.

We can accept that Barnes made a reasonable call based on what he saw and penalised what he thought had happened. Completely understandable again.

We all just wanted to have that tackle looked at properly in the cold light of day.

It was disturbing quite how many folks seemed to want to have that tackle declared a foul and I do wonder how much was because of the "we had a guy sent off and then there was Warbs in the RWC and we want you to suffer too" train of thought.

Or is "thought" an inappropriate word here?

If only the referee had had the option available to him to put this "on report". sometime summary justice is a bit too hasty.

Its done and dusted now. The powers that be have decided that it was a legal tackle. Happy for Ferris that he has been cleared.

Its time to focus on the ames that will happen in a couple of days

MrsP wrote:Sorry Maddog,

You seem to have spelt that wrongly there!

It's spelt mo..... no i!

A little gem lost amongst all the BS

Ah Billy, if only it was that simple

There are Welsh fans who won't be happy their team only won because of a mistake by the ref.

aucklandlaurie wrote: If only the referee had had the option available to him to put this "on report". sometime summary justice is a bit too hasty.

Then Davies wouldnt have been carded at all.

Its not like this was so far from a penalty it was ridiculous, there were certainly worse cases of bad calls over the weekend. Barnes had a good view, he believed strongly he saw a yellow card offence..and from some angles it does look very much like one. Theres no garauntee he wouldnt have gone straight to his pocket anyway, I thought the on report system was for incidents they didnt see?

Personally I just wanted to know that ferris is still infallible........

HammerofThunor wrote:Grey, I think that's most sensible people's opinion on it. Not a penalty but close and easy to see why it was given in real time from one particular angle.

Yeah I wouldn't say it was close to being a penalty. It was a legitimate tackle and Barnes got it wrong but thats easy to say looking at the replays, in real time it's different and 'understandable' to a point. It was still a poor call and extremely frustrating given the significance to the result and disruption it has caused in terms of the preperation for France.

Ireland weren't robbed, we were unlucky and you make your own luck. We ended up in the wrong area of the field at the wrong time and therefore we were always under serious risk of conceding. Wales were the better side on the day.

What I can't understand is how anyone who watched the replay could conclude that it was anything other than a legitimate tackle.

Davies could most certainly still been carded.

But in dealing with the ferris incident it could have been put on report,and the panel lookde at it later in the coll light of day and all the available footage and made an accurate decision. Why not get a bit of accuracy in these decisions and take a bit of heat off the referees at the same time?the "on report" system doesnt have to be for incidents that the referee didnt see, partly obscured,or another angle can sometimes tell another story.

Auklnad, At the time Barnes considered it a clear act of foul play. If he had been doing his job he wouldve carded it, or at least awarded the penalty then asked for the severity to be reviewed. In this case it was as likely to have made the reffing mistakes have even more effect on Ireland.


He comepletly missed the Davies incident , and the touch judge wasnt confident he had seen it properly. Thats the kind of incident that goes on report. Refs should not be reproting incidents they had a clear view of.


The on report system simply encourages refs to cop out an not make calls on the field of play. Whats the point in having them there at all? What does the on reprot system do that the citing system cant, other than placate the crowd who are baying for blood at the time by making it clear the ref feels there may be something to deal with but is chicken to do it.

This is a really bad example to start extolling the virtues of rugby league.

PeterSBW ........ How could he have had a clear view of something that wasnt there to be seen?

The act happened, he was looking right at it. The players legs were tipped right up into the air, he beleived ( wrongly, and only by a fraction of a second) that this occured before the players body had hit the ground.
From were he was standing it would have looked for all the world like a tip tackle. If refs arent allowed to punish things they believe they have seen clearly at the time on the field then why bother?
Mistakes will be made, but then things wont always get reported that should be. Things that should and could have been punished on teh field will instead be reproted, these could have been picked up by the citing proccess anyway. I really dont se that creating a new problem to fix and old one acheives much other than giving the off field officials even more to trawl through.

Certainly if it is going to be used it should be used sparingly, and again ..its not designed for acts that the ref beleives he saw clearly as was the case with the the ferris tackle. Its designed for acts like the Davies one where the ref didnt get a view.

Would Rolland have had the guts to correctly red card Warburton under that system even though it happened right infront of him? Quite possibly not. He couldve hidden behind the review system.

Refs shouldnt be afraid to make calls on incidents they have a seen. Even on review the Ferris one is borederline and fits into a grey area, its not like it was a hgorrible miss call.

roddersm wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Grey, I think that's most sensible people's opinion on it. Not a penalty but close and easy to see why it was given in real time from one particular angle.

Yeah I wouldn't say it was close to being a penalty. It was a legitimate tackle and Barnes got it wrong but thats easy to say looking at the replays, in real time it's different and 'understandable' to a point. It was still a poor call and extremely frustrating given the significance to the result and disruption it has caused in terms of the preperation for France.

Ireland weren't robbed, we were unlucky and you make your own luck. We ended up in the wrong area of the field at the wrong time and therefore we were always under serious risk of conceding. Wales were the better side on the day.

What I can't understand is how anyone who watched the replay could conclude that it was anything other than a legitimate tackle.

Agree with all the above. It's pretty clear a large proportion of people have no clue what a tip/spear tackle is.

aucklandlaurie wrote: PeterSBW ........ How could he have had a clear view of something that wasnt there to be seen?

Laurie, in real time, from camera angles close to Barnes' position the tackle looked iffy. Other angles are a lot more favourable to Ferris.

AAAAAAAAARGH , seriously lads snd ladettes, this has now been done to death, Bradley Davies got his ban, Ferris was not upheld, so the fact that he was yellowed and he gave a penalty that lost the game was deemed sufficient, so lets move on to this weekends games and put all this behind us. It is not as if the worst side won on the day anyway

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Refs shouldnt be afraid to make calls on incidents they have a seen. Even on review the Ferris one is borederline and fits into a grey area, its not like it was a hgorrible miss call.

I, and I think most Irish fans, would agree with this.

Rava wrote:Ah Billy, if only it was that simple

There are Welsh fans who won't be happy their team only won because of a mistake by the ref.

In fairness Rava, its only a few fans of Wales or opposing sides being like this. The majority have been pretty decent.

As for Wales only winning by a mistake from the ref....... Well you understand that i am not touching that

Rava wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Refs shouldnt be afraid to make calls on incidents they have a seen. Even on review the Ferris one is borederline and fits into a grey area, its not like it was a hgorrible miss call.

I, and I think most Irish fans, would agree with this.

I think we all must agree with that. If a referee becomes afraid to make a call, that is significantly worse than being inconsistant. Our sport has become so fast, and there is so much more under the microscope, as it were, that I believe being a referee in today's game is extremely difficult. Nigh on impossible to get everything right.

Completely agree Grey.

We must not have refs afraid to make the call as they see the incident. In a way the the two yellow cards were the worst of both worlds.

In the first one both Pearson and to a much much less extent Barnes chicken out of making the correct call. Even though Barnes didn't see the incident you have got to wonder why there wasn't a pause at the discrepancy between the text book red card offence description and the recommended yellow.

Reading some refs views on the matter and some of them feel Barnes should have queried the colour of the recommended card.

In the second one Barnes was brave and called what he saw. We can ask for no more.

I hope the report from the disciplinary panel, if their findings are as reported by the Irish Team Manager, give their full backing to the call Barnes made as being appropriate on what he saw.

I hope they have Pearson under a hot lamp explaining exactly what on earth he thought he was doing!

Seabiscuit,

What makes you think that Pearson didn't have a good view of the Davies assault? I don't hear him say anything to indicate that.

I thought he said he only saw it from the corner of his eye or something along those lines?

I may be wrong

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MrsP wrote:Sorry Maddog,

You seem to have spelt that wrongly there!

It's spelt mo..... no i!

A little gem lost amongst all the BS

Awh shucks Asbo.

Not too often I have been called "a little gem" on here!

MrsP wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MrsP wrote:Sorry Maddog,

You seem to have spelt that wrongly there!

It's spelt mo..... no i!

A little gem lost amongst all the BS

Awh shucks Asbo.

Not too often I have been called "a little gem" on here!

Its a type of lettuce.....

How to burst a girl's bubble eh?

Well Asbo if you will stick that thing places...

She told me it wasn't her bubble?

baint my thumb neither!

Gentlemen!!!

A bit of decorum if you please!!!!

First one to mention salad cream gets cited

Apalling sour grapes from the Irish management. They should be fined for bringing the game into disrepute - basically implying it wasn't a penalty after Ferris was let off. Deliberate misrepresentation to imply that Ireland were cheated out of the game.

Poor, poor form. Something you'd normaly associate with Soccer.

A sad day for rugby.

Now if only we really could cite folks on here!

oh please...a sad day for rugby.
especially as 'the disciplinary panel itself felt the decision to award the penalty was incorrect'.

A sad day for rugby is when a player upends another in such a way to risk long term injury, as Davies did on Saturday, not an official talking out of turn.

Get a sense of perspective.

MrsP wrote:We must not have refs afraid to make the call as they see the incident. In a way the the two yellow cards were the worst of both worlds.

In the first one both Pearson and to a much much less extent Barnes chicken out of making the correct call. Even though Barnes didn't see the incident you have got to wonder why there wasn't a pause at the discrepancy between the text book red card offence description and the recommended yellow.

Reading some refs views on the matter and some of them feel Barnes should have queried the colour of the recommended card.

In the second one Barnes was brave and called what he saw. We can ask for no more.

I hope the report from the disciplinary panel, if their findings are as reported by the Irish Team Manager, give their full backing to the call Barnes made as being appropriate on what he saw.

I hope they have Pearson under a hot lamp explaining exactly what on earth he thought he was doing!

Seabiscuit,

What makes you think that Pearson didn't have a good view of the Davies assault? I don't hear him say anything to indicate that.

Pearson was right in front of the incident if you go and watch the replays you can see his flag shoot up when Davies picks Ryan up but Id query Pearsons competancy personally or his decision making. Maybe Im just bitter but during the Clermont Ulster game Pearson ignored a blatant block by Hines on Henry for the Clermont now he ignores the clearest red card we have seen involving a tip tackle