Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:58 pm

My independent view is not even a penalty. I don't believe that Evans doesn't either have his other leg or his hand/arm in contact with the ground at all times.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:02 pm

Yes thank you.

I am aware of the fact that legs are attached to players but players feet come off the ground in all sorts of tackles and if you are using that as your definition of a dangerous tackle no match would get past 10 mins before all 30 players were in the bin.

Evans Left foot stays on the ground until just before his arm hits the ground.

He is knocked off his left foot by the taclke, it is not lifted by Ferris.

Evans' hips are never lifted higher than they are when he is standing.

If any player is tackled full pelt he may well be lifted from his feet. Are they all dangerous tackles?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:05 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:My independent view is not even a penalty. I don't believe that Evans doesn't either have his other leg or his hand/arm in contact with the ground at all times.

You need to look at 3.13 then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUm9Whlaydc

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:08 pm

MrsP wrote:Yes thank you.

I am aware of the fact that legs are attached to players but players feet come off the ground in all sorts of tackles and if you are using that as your definition of a dangerous tackle no match would get past 10 mins before all 30 players were in the bin.

Evans Left foot stays on the ground until just before his arm hits the ground.

He is knocked off his left foot by the taclke, it is not lifted by Ferris.

Evans' hips are never lifted higher than they are when he is standing.

If any player is tackled full pelt he may well be lifted from his feet. Are they all dangerous tackles?

+1, but I don't think you'll convince the unconvinceable

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:11 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
MrsP wrote:Yes thank you.

I am aware of the fact that legs are attached to players but players feet come off the ground in all sorts of tackles and if you are using that as your definition of a dangerous tackle no match would get past 10 mins before all 30 players were in the bin.

Evans Left foot stays on the ground until just before his arm hits the ground.

He is knocked off his left foot by the taclke, it is not lifted by Ferris.

Evans' hips are never lifted higher than they are when he is standing.

If any player is tackled full pelt he may well be lifted from his feet. Are they all dangerous tackles?
+1, but I don't think you'll convince the unconvinceable

Ive already said im not convinced it was a penalty offence, what im saying is that to claim the player wasnt lifted simply because only one leg was grabbed is a bit odd.

Does anyone remeber the Estebanez citing form the France Tonga game? Im sure it wasnt that dissimilar to this, although the key point may be that in this case the player infact kept contact with the ground as he was tipped.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:42 pm

"...although the key point may be that in this case the player infact kept contact with the ground as he was tipped."

The key point indeed.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:45 pm

Ian Evans was totally off the ground at one point.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:46 pm

MrsP, I'm not an expert, but surely the 'kept contact with the ground' and 'hips never above hip height' points must be key?

by geoff998rugby Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:46 pm

It was but only for a fraction as Mrs P said:

"Evans Left foot stays on the ground until just before his arm hits the ground."

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2012, 1:52 pm

'hips never above hip height' points must be key?.

I thought the key to determining whether a tip/dump tackle was ligitimate or not was dependent on whether the players hips are raised above his shoulders? This is considered dangerous because in doing this the top half of the player hits the ground first increasing the chance of injury. If you lift so that the hips and shoulders are parrallel or the hips are below the shoulders the player will land on their lower or flat of their back which is considered safe.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:02 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:'hips never above hip height'

If my hips ever get above my hips can someone please call a physicist?

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

Sam,

I think you are right but my contention is that Ferris did not lift Evans so he was past horizontal. he lifted one of the guys legs and the lad tipped over.

That just doesn't seem to constitute a tip tackle, let alone a dangerous tackle.

There seems to be a lot of,

He lifting one of his legs therefore it's the same as lifting the player.

The lads other leg eventually left the floor in the tackle therefore he lifted the player.
Evans tipped up therefore it must be a tip tackle.

I just do not think you can shove all those bits together and declare this a tip tackle.

If you do I suspect you will be declaring about 60% of the tackles made during any game as illegal.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:04 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:'hips never above hip height'

If my hips ever get above my hips can someone please call a physicist?

Just jump Seabiscuit.

Seeemples.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:07 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:'hips never above hip height'

If my hips ever get above my hips can someone please call a physicist?

I thought you were a contortionist, PSW?!

by Hound_of_Harrow Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

Once a referee sees a player's leg(s) in the air and an opponent causing it, said opponent is giving the ref every oportunity of interpreting what is happening as dangerous play.

It was not malicious, but it was naive and careless by Ferris.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:16 pm

As I said Hound, I think most of us understand how and why Barnes gave a yellow.

I am just struggling to see a law broken on the replays so I don't understand the claim for "just a penalty".

by **rodders** Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:16 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:It was not malicious, but it was naive and careless by Ferris.

I've seen more dangerous tackles in beach tag tournaments.

The world has gone mad. Maybe we should ban lineout lifting and have uncontested scrums too.

I can't believe anyone who has ever actually played rugby thinks that is a penalty.

You can't go half effort into a tackle, if the resulting momentum takes the player off the deck then that is not dangerous and not a penalty. He wasn't high, he wasn't driven, he didn't come down on his upper body or neck, he wasn't dropped, he wasn't injured. It's total nonsence.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:19 pm

MrsP wrote:

I am just struggling to see a law broken on the replays .

After 6 pages of video replays, still images and having the laws printed in black and white, you still can't see any laws that were broken?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:21 pm

roddersm wrote:
I've seen more dangerous tackles in beach tag tournaments.

The world has gone mad. Maybe we should ban lineout lifting and have uncontested scrums too.

I can't believe anyone who has ever actually played rugby thinks that is a penalty.

You can't go half effort into a tackle, if the resulting momentum takes the player off the deck then that is not dangerous and not a penalty. He wasn't high, he wasn't driven, he didn't come down on his upper body or neck, he wasn't dropped, he wasn't injured. It's total nonsence.

This sort of opinion is exacty the same sort of opinion that Ospreys fans had when Tipuric was cited. And Scarlets fans had when Matthew Rees got cited.

That Ferris hadn't learned from incidents like these only exacerbates his carlessness.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:29 pm

Still waiting for the evidence on those,

"...several players have been cited this season for identical tackles"

But I somehow doubt it will be forthcoming.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:32 pm

MrsP wrote:Still waiting for the evidence on those,

"...several players have been cited this season for identical tackles"

But I somehow doubt it will be forthcoming.

You've already said you didn't see the Tipuric one.

I can't magic it into your mind.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:36 pm

Link?

Proper description? Infact any description?

Independant view?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:36 pm

Chunky you can be a cheeky git at times, why not just talk to people with some respect eh?

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:38 pm

Just watched the game.

Never a yellow, and for me not a penalty either.

Poor decision by Barnes.

That said, I thought Wales were the better side and deserved the win.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:39 pm

It was very similar to Ferris'. Hardly got off the ground. Horizontal. Not really speared into the ground at all. But it was cited and he was banned.

And Ferris didn't learn. And Wales won as a result.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:40 pm

Chunky, Is Ferris meant to have seen the video of the incidents to which you refer?

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:43 pm

And did he only lift one of the player's legs?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:44 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, Is Ferris meant to have seen the video of the incidents to which you refer?

Are you saying he was unaware that the IRB were clamping down on tip tackles?

That's the point here.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:45 pm

MrsP wrote:And did he only lift one of the player's legs?

Can't remember. Which is just as well as it's irrelevant.

Why are you focusing on this?

by mckay1402 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:45 pm

I must say I think it was harsh to give a yellow but I can see why he did. At first watch back I thought it was a regular tackle but the replay does show that Ferris tipped the player. The fact that he only had hold of one leg is immaterial.

On a seperate note I think the number 9 should be sited for going in on JD2 with the knees when he scored his second try. He knew he wasn't going to get the ball so the only intent can have been to injure. I hate to see those challenges when a player is scoring. it's one thing if you have a legitimate chance of dislodging but he didn't.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:47 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, Is Ferris meant to have seen the video of the incidents to which you refer?

Are you saying he was unaware that the IRB were clamping down on tip tackles?

That's the point here.

Is it? I'm sure he was very aware, and as Hound noted just a moment ago, Ferris was naive - but I don't believe you get a penalty against you or a YC for naivety - will check the IRB site for you tho

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:49 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I must say I think it was harsh to give a yellow but I can see why he did. At first watch back I thought it was a regular tackle but the replay does show that Ferris tipped the player. The fact that he only had hold of one leg is immaterial.

On a seperate note I think the number 9 should be sited for going in on JD2 with the knees when he scored his second try. He knew he wasn't going to get the ball so the only intent can have been to injure. I hate to see those challenges when a player is scoring. it's one thing if you have a legitimate chance of dislodging but he didn't.

Good post. I've yet to see the knees incident again.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:50 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, Is Ferris meant to have seen the video of the incidents to which you refer?

Are you saying he was unaware that the IRB were clamping down on tip tackles?

That's the point here.
Is it? I'm sure he was very aware, and as Hound noted just a moment ago, Ferris was naive - but I don't believe you get a penalty against you or a YC for naivety - will check the IRB site for you tho

Your post is rather crass. And smacks of sour grapes.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:50 pm

Undoubtedly there will be a,

Peter Stringer to be cited!

article any minute now!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Chunky, Is Ferris meant to have seen the video of the incidents to which you refer?

Are you saying he was unaware that the IRB were clamping down on tip tackles?

That's the point here.
Is it? I'm sure he was very aware, and as Hound noted just a moment ago, Ferris was naive - but I don't believe you get a penalty against you or a YC for naivety - will check the IRB site for you tho

Your post is rather crass. And smacks of sour grapes.

How so, I'm neutral in Wales vs Ireland?

by eirebilly Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:53 pm

MrsP wrote:Undoubtedly there will be a,

Peter Stringer to be cited!

article any minute now!

by mckay1402 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:53 pm

Peter Stringer wasn't playing. I believe it was Conor Murray or something. It was a poor challenge and I'm not saying that because I'm Welsh. I have always hated those challenges.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:56 pm

I know who was playing mckay.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 2:58 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:How so, I'm neutral in Wales vs Ireland?

Don't seem so neutral to me.

Your post was rather churlish and sidestepepd the point.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:05 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:How so, I'm neutral in Wales vs Ireland?

Don't seem so neutral to me.

Your post was rather churlish and sidestepepd the point.

Hmm, I believe that you made a point about the IRB clamping down, and I responded:

I'm sure he was very aware

Admittedly the rest of my post was distinctly tongue-in-cheek.

Sorry for not seeming neutral enough for me - if I agreed with you, would that make me more acceptably neutral?

by miteyironpaw Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:14 pm

mckay1402 wrote:Peter Stringer wasn't playing. I believe it was Conor Murray or something. It was a poor challenge and I'm not saying that because I'm Welsh. I have always hated those challenges.

You've always hated it when Welshmen are legitimately tackled?

Personally I hate it when tacklers are penalised for "dangerous play", that isn't dangerous, especially when they're yellow carded and the penalty changes the result of the game.

Not saying Wales weren't the better team. But then often times the better team doesn't win.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:32 pm

Rory, DOD, Chunky, get back to the rugby please, I'm going to be removing the last few verbals.

by Rava Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:34 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
All I've done is debate rugby today. If that makes me an idiot in your book, I don't want to read it.

Cheers.

Didn't see any real debate from you. You made your point, as did others, but chose to repeat it every second or third post. You must be in politics Whistle

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:49 pm

Folks, this debate has devolved into several people repeating the same points over and over based on their interpretation of the replays from Sunday, with some other people getting frustrated as a result and throwing out insults.

I'm going to unlock it again in case anyone has anything new to add, but the yes it was/no it wasn't is getting tiresome.

by ME-109 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:54 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Folks, this debate has devolved into several people repeating the same points over and over based on their interpretation of the replays from Sunday, with some other people getting frustrated as a result and throwing out insults.

I'm going to unlock it again in case anyone has anything new to add, but the yes it was/no it wasn't is getting tiresome.

oh no its not

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 06 Feb 2012, 3:56 pm

DOD wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
Folks, this debate has devolved into several people repeating the same points over and over based on their interpretation of the replays from Sunday, with some other people getting frustrated as a result and throwing out insults.

I'm going to unlock it again in case anyone has anything new to add, but the yes it was/no it wasn't is getting tiresome.

oh no its not

by miteyironpaw Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:01 pm

It's kind of sad that what was one of the best 6N games in the history of the 6N has been marred by this controversy. Or perhaps not, perhaps all classics need controversy, maybe it's part of their greatness.

For me, this one was right up with the Bledisloe cup snatched by NZ at the last minute with a try to big Jonah. Some absolutely classic rugby from both sides, tremendous atmosphere, end to end excitement and , well, frankly, Rugby Was the Winner of The Day.

I think both sets of fans should set aside the controversy, be immensely proud of their team's contribution to the wider sport, reflect that on that form both sides are contenders for the title, and that at the end of the day, it was an awful inconsistent decision that handed Wales a win, that they probably deserved anyway on merit; breathing life into the old saying that Wales Can Beat Anyone on Their Day. Maybe this was it. I certainly hope so. Because on form of the weekend, it will need to severely not be Wales' day for them not to beat England. And we wouldn't want that, now would we?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:05 pm

To be fair its less so than last years fixture, i havent seen Irish fans directly blaming their loss on the two cards. They seem much more intent on tearing their own team apart with Kidney, the back row, the centers and Sexpest coming in for a savaging.
Despite everything a fully functioning Ireland would have won this game.

Its very different to Warburtongate where Wales played out of their skins and still lost, in that case the fans look beyond the team to oustide factors for what to blame.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:07 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Its very different to Warburtongate where Wales played out of their skins and still lost, in that case the fans look beyond the team to oustide factors for what to blame.

What all of them?

I think not.

by mckay1402 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:09 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:
mckay1402 wrote:Peter Stringer wasn't playing. I believe it was Conor Murray or something. It was a poor challenge and I'm not saying that because I'm Welsh. I have always hated those challenges.

You've always hated it when Welshmen are legitimately tackled?

Personally I hate it when tacklers are penalised for "dangerous play", that isn't dangerous, especially when they're yellow carded and the penalty changes the result of the game.

Not saying Wales weren't the better team. But then often times the better team doesn't win.

I wasn't talking about a legitimate tackle. I was talking about when JD2 scored his second try and conor murray slid in on him with his knees. illegal, dangerous and unnessecary.

If you're going to respond to something i've written at least make sure you know what it's referring to

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