Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:19 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:Rory, DOD, Chunky, get back to the rugby please, I'm going to be removing the last few verbals.

What on earth did I say that was verbally abusive to anyone?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:29 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:Rory, DOD, Chunky, get back to the rugby please, I'm going to be removing the last few verbals.

What on earth did I say that was verbally abusive to anyone?

Just sent you a PM about it Rory.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Feb 2012, 4:30 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:Rory, DOD, Chunky, get back to the rugby please, I'm going to be removing the last few verbals.

What on earth did I say that was verbally abusive to anyone?

Just sent you a PM about it Rory.

Thank you.

by doctor_grey Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:42 pm

Well, I finally saw a replay. A mate emailed me the video. I can see how this could be interpreted differently. Close call either way.

Watching in normal speed, I don't see anything wrong with the tackle. And I watched a few times. Its only in slow motion where I can see grounds for discussion. But I think a lot of plays look worse in slo mo.

I think its a close run thing. But we have to remember this is Rugby, not the ballet. So for me, I would not have penalised Ferris.

This was not close to the Bradley Davies tackle which seemed to me could have been red.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:45 pm

Told you!

by SecretFly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 12:07 am

JD2???

Hey! We Irish still have copyright of the old capital Initials name tags!!! You can take the win but leave the threespot names to us! The bloomin cheek.

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 12:25 am

Secret,

I think that copyright only applied to the ones with an O in the middle, no?

by SecretFly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 12:32 am

No MrsP, I insisted we make it include any treble notch name tag. To cover for the likelihood of nicknames... as in Jerry Dee Animal Flannery or JDA for short. Wink

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:12 am

MrsP,
You have made your point, as I think you knew you would. If you had not been so persistent, I would not trolled around looking for the replay (instead of seeing patients). But, alas, you win. A close call, though. I have to admit, my evil twin wanted to disagree since it would have been more fun.

The biggest shame, of course, is that it decided the match. It is always bad when a match is decided on a controversal call. Especially one like that.

But, look at the bright side: You still have the match against England to raise your spirits......

by eirebilly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:52 am

Fair play to you doctor, good honest response clap

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:10 am

Sorry Grey,

I couldn't resist.

I knew you were too intelligent a man to be fooled.

Seriously though, I have no trouble accepting why Barnes gave a yellow card and Ireland didn't play well enough to win. I just wanted folk to take a proper look at that tackle and decide if it was foul play.

Next we have to travel to Paris. Shocked

Beautiful city but not the happiest of hunting grounds for us. And, I think someone said that the delightful Mr Pearson has the whistle for that match.

Do you think an opthalmologist would help or is the problem "higher up" than that?

by Rava Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:19 am

No Mrs P with Pearson I think only a neurosurgeon would do. Very Happy

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:27 am

I watched the BBC guff last night and Jiffy was his usual ranting self on this issue. What he seems to fail to understand is that the IRB instructions are clear and do differentiate, the problem ( in this case) was a referee arguably making a mistake. Certainly in the case of the Davies one he got terrible advice from the touch judge, at least that made almost no difference to the game and will still be cited.
At least Gatland has come across a bit more sane over the issue this time around.

by eirebilly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:46 am

Massive credit to Gatland i feel but what else could he say... I mean he could'nt defend Davies.

Mr Pearson will hopefully not want to make up for his mistake by reffing France off the park now.... I cant believe i just wrote that Wink

by geoff998rugby Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:58 am

No danger of that - Pearson is a notorious homer

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:03 am

Seabiscuit,

I'm not sure you can really say that the result would not have been different if davies had been dismissed.

Not griping, Wales out played us but I don't think we could be sure of the scoreline if Davies had stayed off.

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:07 am

I thought it was an offence, technically, given that he definitely lifted IE's leg so that he was head downwards, and that looked like what he meant to do. Whether that should be an offence is another matter, and if it was an offence, it was right at the bottom end of the scale. Whereas Bradley's was near the top, unfortuantely. I'm glad Ryan wasn't seriously hurt, which he could have been.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:13 am

MrsP wrote:Seabiscuit,

I'm not sure you can really say that the result would not have been different if davies had been dismissed.

Not griping, Wales out played us but I don't think we could be sure of the scoreline if Davies had stayed off.

He was only back on for like 2 minutes? Did he have a material impact in that time? Possibly .... but what i mean to say is that in the context of the whole game the difference between a red and a yellow there didnt have the same impact as it would have if Warburton had been yellowed instead of redded.

Ireland failed to take advantage pf the opportunities they had to win that game.

by dummy_half Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:16 am

BlueNote wrote:I thought it was an offence, technically, given that he definitely lifted IE's leg so that he was head downwards, and that looked like what he meant to do. Whether that should be an offence is another matter, and if it was an offence, it was right at the bottom end of the scale. Whereas Bradley's was near the top, unfortuantely. I'm glad Ryan wasn't seriously hurt, which he could have been.

Clearly sums up my interpretation of the two tackles.

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:18 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:He was only back on for like 2 minutes? Did he have a material impact in that time? Possibly ....

He was back on for the final 5 so it could well have made a difference. It's irrelevent though, Wales took their chances and we didn't. On balance they were the better side and the stats show that. No complaints, you make your own luck and these things even themselves out.

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:22 am

It is a shame that Wales have won controversially in the last two 6N encounters between the two sides.

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:26 am

BlueNote wrote:It is a shame that Wales have won controversially in the last two 6N encounters between the two sides.

I don't think this victory was controversial. Over 80 min Wales were clearly better, unlike last season. The two descisions on the tackles were controversial but not the result.

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:47 am

MrsP wrote:Seriously though, I have no trouble accepting why Barnes gave a yellow card and Ireland didn't play well enough to win. I just wanted folk to take a proper look at that tackle and decide if it was foul play..............
.........Do you think an opthalmologist would help or is the problem "higher up" than that?

At the Davies tip tackle, Barnes told the Assistant Referee he did not see the play. It was off the ball. So the recommendation for the yellow came from the assistant referee. I forget who that was, but an Assistant Referee at this level is also a referee and should be able to differentiate the yellow and red. Frankly, I think off the ball is worse than with the ball.

Pearson's not the worst of the lot, so its not so bad. To be technicaly accurate from an anatomical perspective, Pearson's problem is not "higher up" as the eyes are straight in front of the optic nodes of the brain. In fact, the cerebral cortex, which processes a lot of the neural input, is actually even with to slightly below the eyes and optic nerves. Consequently, he needs help "lower down". But if I write that, someone will think I am weird.

by Rava Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:52 am

doctor_grey wrote:
MrsP wrote:Seriously though, I have no trouble accepting why Barnes gave a yellow card and Ireland didn't play well enough to win. I just wanted folk to take a proper look at that tackle and decide if it was foul play..............
.........Do you think an opthalmologist would help or is the problem "higher up" than that?
At the Davies tip tackle, Barnes told the Assistant Referee he did not see the play. It was off the ball. So the recommendation for the yellow came from the assistant referee. I forget who that was, but an Assistant Referee at this level is also a referee and should be able to differentiate the yellow and red. Frankly, I think off the ball is worse than with the ball.

Pearson's not the worst of the lot, so its not so bad. To be technicaly accurate from an anatomical perspective, Pearson's problem is not "higher up" as the eyes are straight in front of the optic nodes of the brain. In fact, the cerebral cortex, which processes a lot of the neural input, is actually even with to slightly below the eyes and optic nerves. Consequently, he needs help "lower down". But if I write that, someone will think I am weird.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:56 am

SecretFly wrote:JD2???

Hey! We Irish still have copyright of the old capital Initials name tags!!! You can take the win but leave the threespot names to us! The bloomin cheek.

Actually I think you'll find that DOC POC and ROG are in breach of copyright. JPR got there first I'm afraid...

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:18 am

"Over 80 min Wales were clearly better, unlike last season."

I would agree with that, although there wasn't much in it this time. I felt Ireland missed BOD more than Wales missed their injured players.

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:21 am

Equally you could say that it's sad that after dominating various phases of the game, Wales needed a poor and controversial refereeing decision to win.

Surely if they were "clearly better" they would have managed to put the game beyond doubt and not needed a poor last minute controversial refereeing decision to bail them out?

Just another perspective.

by Standulstermen Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:22 am

He isn't called blind dave for nothing

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:31 am

miteyironpaw wrote:Equally you could say that it's sad that after dominating various phases of the game, Wales needed a poor and controversial refereeing decision to win.

Surely if they were "clearly better" they would have managed to put the game beyond doubt and not needed a poor last minute controversial refereeing decision to bail them out?

Just another perspective.

If someone saw the statistics of the Scotland-England match without knowing the score, I believe one would think Scotland would have won pretty big. Which shows stats are only one facet of the story. England won, clearly, bit not well. But all that matters is the final score on the day. Wales had the better run of play across the entire match, but not by a huge margin. And it was still a close run thing at the end. I don't think either side "deserved" the win. And its a shame it was a controversial decision which led to the final score.

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:35 am

Grey,

I was talking about "higher up" functionally, not anatomically!

It has become an alarming trend on this thread to question me knowledge of anatomy. I know my "Pre-clinical" studies were a while ago, but I haven't forgotten all of it!

Very Happy

by ME-109 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:37 am

Pearson will get demoted due to this....but unfortunately not before next Saturday....

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:48 am

Just read on the BBC that Davies AND FERRIS have been cited! If that's for the incident we're discussing, that is farcical.

Why do English fans desparate to diss the Welsh at all costs give themselves heroic forum names?? Small-mindedness isn't heroic.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:50 am

BlueNote wrote:Just read on the BBC that Davies AND FERRIS have been cited! If that's for the incident we're discussing, that is farcical.

Why do English fans desparate to diss the Welsh at all costs give themselves heroic forum names?? Small-mindedness isn't heroic.

Because its one person with multiple accounts trolling

Surprised Ferris has been cited, I expect he'll escape a ban.

by doctor_grey Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:54 am

MrsP wrote:Grey,

I was talking about "higher up" functionally, not anatomically!

It has become an alarming trend on this thread to question me knowledge of anatomy.

And, obviously, tip tackles........

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:54 am

Presumably they have both been cited because they were both issued the same punishment under the same law in the same game.

Presumably the citing will then be able to further punish Davies with a hefty ban and officially admit that Ferris was harshly treated by the officials at the time.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:55 am

BlueNote wrote:Just read on the BBC that Davies AND FERRIS have been cited! If that's for the incident we're discussing, that is farcical.

Why do English fans desparate to diss the Welsh at all costs give themselves heroic forum names?? Small-mindedness isn't heroic.

Silly question, but are yellow cards automatically cited? I seem to remember something like that.

by english warrior Tue 07 Feb 2012, 10:59 am

'Why do English fans desparate to diss the Welsh at all costs give themselves heroic forum names?? Small-mindedness isn't heroic.[/quote]

'Because its one person with multiple accounts trolling'

Multiple accounts? Heroic forum names ? I think someone is spending too much time and thought on these posts and needs to get a little perspective and life if they feel that any of this is 'Important' because its merely a laugh and a discussion and if anyone else takes it too deeply, then they need to get out more. As for 'dissing the Welsh' Well, just put yourself in our shoes. Fair enough. thumbsup

I thank you. Hug

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:00 am

I thought it was only reds? But maybe its any card for foul play?

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:23 am

I am not too surprised really.

I will however be very upset if they impose any sort of a ban.

Even the most anti Irish on here have at worst said it was a penalty or a harsh yellow.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:27 am

Got to agree that any sort of ban would be a bit farcical but then Delon Armitage was cited and banned for what looked to be a pretty routine high tackle which was clumsy and clearly not malicious (not worth a yellow let alone a red). The RWC saw some very tough rulings but thankfully common sense has largely returned to the citing panels since then.

by tecphobe Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:38 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16926670 Ferris cited as well as bradley davies

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:10 pm

We said the same about Warburton during the world cup and after a lot of soul searching and law gazing we came to the conclusion that he should have been banned. Ferris well be banned but only for three Weeks

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:17 pm

There is no comparison between Warburtons tackle and Ferris. Warburtons was a tip tackle to the letter of the law, Ferris is a tip tackle only to those with an overactive imagination and a squeamish stomach.

It was a perfectly executed, safe, hard tackle that you teach school boys to do so that they don't hurt themselves or their opponents. It wasn't reckless or dangerous.

I'm afraid a lot of people neither understand the game, the mechanics of tackling or the IRB ruling.

by munkian Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:20 pm

There was a much worse spear tackle on a Dragon's player vs Perp several weeks ago - the Perp player only got a yellow but was cited and then only got a 3 week ban. There was intent there and he got the same as Sam.

There is still no consistency Rolling Eyes

By the way even if Davies only gets around 3 weeks I dont think Gatland should select him for any remaining games - he has to learn to control himself, even if the oposition smash into rucks with impunity

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:21 pm

When in doubt suggest people are less intelligent than you, good one. According to the letter of the law it was an illegal tackle. I guess some people just don't understand how laws work.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:21 pm

When in doubt suggest people are less intelligent than you, good one. According to the letter of the law it was an illegal tackle. I guess some people just don't understand how laws work.

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:23 pm

mckay1402 wrote: According to the letter of the law it was an illegal tackle.

No it wasn't.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:24 pm

Yes it was

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:25 pm

When I played rugby at school, that sort of tackle Ferris did would be considered a brilliant tackle. It still would be considered a brilliant tackle, I see that sort of hit all the time when I watch my mates play. Nobody would argue that. If some twerpy IRB poster boy came up and said otherwise "according to the law", I think he would be told where to go, and rightly so.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 1:25 pm

Furthermore I'd like to point out that whenever Wales are on the receiving end of a poor decision you lot can't wait to have a pop about us blaming the ref. So stop blaming the ref and accept that you lost to a better team

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