Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 10:57 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:I think it's disappointing that with a contact sport such a rugby, simply lifting a player whilst following through with a powerful, strong hit is deemed as dangerous play. There was no malice in Ferris' hit from what I can see. He didn't drive him into the ground, and personally I don't think it was exposing the player to any more danger than a game of rugby does anyway. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but that's the way I feel. People can quote all the laws they like, but there are always grey areas. In real-time play, I don't think the tackle looks any more than a great hit.

Its not though. Lifting them and causing them to be tipped is. Its quite possible to lift someone and minimise the risk of them being tipped.

Why? Because statiscs have shown it to be a high cause of injuries.
Lifting tackles can be done safely, players just have to show some degree of consideration in when they do them or risk sanction. That they kept ignoring that ruling is why the sanctiosn were increased.

This particular incident is a different case, you may well argue that it shouldnt have been punished under the laws. But thats differnet to argueing as to what the laws are, and to what they should be which is another debate again.

It's not what PSW?? Might help to elaborate. I understand that it's a high cause of injuries. I understand a player can be lifted and players should minimise the risk of injury by safely returning the lifted player to the ground safely, with their head and shoulders out of the way. Ferris in my eyes, lifted the player, maybe to slightly above 90, but returned him to the ground without driving him. Davis on the other hand, was the epitome of a dangerous tip tackle, with malice and ill-consideration.

The "its not" was aimed at your assetrion that driving through and lifting a player is banned. It isnt. Its perfectly legal when done safely and appropriatley.

I agree that in this case Ferris was unfortunate to have been adjudged to have caused the player to have been tipped, and as someone else pointed out this may ghave nbeen a bit of a case of the ref wanting to even things out and having in the back of his mind certain other incidents and the natuire of the internet.

I'm certain that a number of Welsh fans would be full of bile and hatred had he not carded Ferris.

by bluestonevedder Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:01 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

The "its not" was aimed at your assetrion that driving through and lifting a player is banned. It isnt. Its perfectly legal when done safely and appropriatley.

I agree that in this case Ferris was unfortunate to have been adjudged to have caused the player to have been tipped, and as someone else pointed out this may ghave nbeen a bit of a case of the ref wanting to even things out and having in the back of his mind certain other incidents and the natuire of the internet.

I'm certain that a number of Welsh fans would be full of bile and hatred had he not carded Ferris.

Ah I see, sorry I didn't know what you were referring to. As i've said though, in my eyes I feel that Ferris did complete the tackle safely.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:03 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials.

Any tackle of what nature? When the tackled player leaves the ground? If that is the case there'd be 20 yellow cards a game.

Nonsence. It wasn't a penalty, not even close.

by Guest Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:04 am

IMO it was a penalty but it was never a yellow.

by HammerofThunor Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:06 am

To be honest it's either nothing or a yellow. If it's considered dangerous then for that type of dangerous tackle it should be at least a yellow.

I can understand the yellow though as its only via the replays that I think there's nothing in it.

by GunsGerms Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:10 am

TJ wrote:Ok - Just watched it again on Iplayer. Its not as bad as some but its a penalty I am sure

Still pic here - looks very damming - but not the whole story

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6828882833/

The welsh guy was practically horizontal when he lands. Cant understand how this was a pen. I'd understand if he was dumped vertically etc. Strange decision for me.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:10 am

That is exactly my feeling on the issue Thunor.

I just think it was worth trying to clarify it with the replays.

I completly understand why Barnes thought it was a yellow just don't see why is should be a penalty when you look properely at it.

I said earlier that I suspected folks were saying it was a pen because it wasn't bad enough for a yellow rather than saying which law was broken.

by TJ1 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:13 am

IRB laws state

Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst
that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come
into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Quite clear I would say

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:14 am

TJ wrote:IRB laws stte

Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst
that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come
into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Youre missing the 2009 directive regarding cards, which has been quoted above

by clivemcl Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:17 am

I've said it before and I'll repeat it. You cannot justify the penalty based on how he landed (if he did land on his head). The question has to be on how the tackle was made. Players can twist their own bodies or get off-balanced adding to how they land. Stop pouinting to how he landed as justification for the penalty, talk about how the tackle was made.

If we were to get so intense about people landing dangerously they would outlaw catching the ball in the air because there has been countless horribly nasty collisions and falls.

The fact that he landed on his head/neck does not mean Ferris made an illegal tackle.

So lets look at the actual tackle and the law.

Law 10.4(j) : Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

Player not lifted, NO PENALTY.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:19 am

So Chunky,

"It was dangerous. Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials. It's been clampned down, and several players have been cited this season for identical tackles. The fact Ferris chose not to heed these as a warning is his fault."

These "identical tackles" from "several players"?

Who, where and when?

by dummy_half Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:23 am

While it was no way near to Bradley Davies's dump of Ryan (how the assitsant advised yellow rather than red for that is beyond me), I think with the current interpretation on tackling and lifting players, there was no way that Barnes was not awarding a penalty - Ferris started low and deliberately took Evans's leg up and round well beyond the level of the tackled player's hips, so he was always likely to be executing a 'tip' tackle where the tackled player landed on his upper body. Wan't a malicious tackle and Ferris didn't drop Evans, so I can understand not giving the red card, but again to the letter of the Laws and their current interpretation, the yellow was reasonable.

Now, the question of whether the Laws are correct and being interpretted reasonably is a slightly different question, and I think some of us who have played the game in the past think that the reffing of this type of tackle is becoming rather officious. Yes, we all want rid of genuinely dangerous spear tackles, but we shouldn't be neutering the collision contest in the process.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:26 am

MrsP wrote:So Chunky,

"It was dangerous. Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials. It's been clampned down, and several players have been cited this season for identical tackles. The fact Ferris chose not to heed these as a warning is his fault."

These "identical tackles" from "several players"?

Who, where and when?

http://www.rugby365.com/news/2825264.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/15246670

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/sport-front-page/2011/12/30/matthew-rees-in-dock-over-tip-tackle-on-ryan-jones-115875-23667416/

by Mickado Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:33 am

Here's the 2 tackles again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUm9Whlaydc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

by Mickado Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:39 am

Having just watched them both.

1) Ryan was counter rucking
2) Davies should have been sent off, both Pearson and Barnes bottled it
3) Ferris tackle wasn’t a penalty, it’s exactly the same type of tackle you put in against a defending pillar to take them off their feet at a ruck.

by miteyironpaw Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:47 am

Spot on Mickado, anyone trying to argue anything else has an agenda. As a neutral it's very clear.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:48 am

Well thankfully Wayne Barnes is the qualified referee and not 606v2.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:50 am

So,

Those were all instances where the tackler lifted one of the tackled player's leg?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:50 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:Well thankfully Wayne Barnes is the qualified referee and not 606v2.

by Mickado Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:52 am

Barnes asks Pearson what happened, Pearson says he’s not sure because play had moved away (fair enough) but he did see Davies lift Ryan above horizontal and drop him.

Now we have a good few referees on these boards, so maybe they can confirm, but if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:52 am

MrsP wrote:So,

Those were all instances where the tackler lifted one of the tackled player's leg?

^ What does this mean?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:55 am

Mickado wrote:Barnes asks Pearson what happened, Pearson says he’s not sure because play had moved away (fair enough) but he did see Davies lift Ryan above horizontal and drop him.

Now we have a good few referees on these boards, so maybe they can confirm, but if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

Well why did Pearson recomend a yellow?
Because he didnt see it properly and wasnt sure. Unlike Rolland who was right on the spot focussed onthe Warburton incident.

Unfortunate for Ireland, but he will get cited. This is what people want form the on report system, he might not have gotten carded at all in the game. Not sure Id be happy with that. From the replays I cant see how it wasnt a straight red.

by Mickado Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:58 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Mickado wrote:Barnes asks Pearson what happened, Pearson says he’s not sure because play had moved away (fair enough) but he did see Davies lift Ryan above horizontal and drop him.

Now we have a good few referees on these boards, so maybe they can confirm, but if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

Well why did Pearson recomend a yellow?
Because he didnt see it properly and wasnt sure. Unlike Rolland who was right on the spot focussed onthe Warburton incident.

Unfortunate for Ireland, but he will get cited. This is what people want form the on report system, he might not have gotten carded at all in the game. Not sure Id be happy with that. From the replays I cant see how it wasnt a straight red.

He saw enough to know (and tell Barnes) that Davies lifted Ryan past horizontal and dropped him.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 11:59 am

Davies has already been cited. Blame Dave Pearson. He's the douche that got it all wrong.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:01 pm

Mickado wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Mickado wrote:Barnes asks Pearson what happened, Pearson says he’s not sure because play had moved away (fair enough) but he did see Davies lift Ryan above horizontal and drop him.

Now we have a good few referees on these boards, so maybe they can confirm, but if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

Well why did Pearson recomend a yellow?
Because he didnt see it properly and wasnt sure. Unlike Rolland who was right on the spot focussed onthe Warburton incident.

Unfortunate for Ireland, but he will get cited. This is what people want form the on report system, he might not have gotten carded at all in the game. Not sure Id be happy with that. From the replays I cant see how it wasnt a straight red.

He saw enough to know (and tell Barnes) that Davies lifted Ryan past horizontal and dropped him.

True in which case we should critisize him for being a poopoo and recomending yellow. But then instead we see refs being critisized for being too quick with the cards....
Its certainly wrong to hold BArnes responsible ( other than for looking the worng way I guess) for the incorrect call. He has to trust his interntaional referee collegaue to know the rules and inform him of what he saw and the card it merits.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:02 pm

if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

Because he didn't see it? Barnes saw nothing and was only aware of an incident when POC pointed towards Person who was flagging. Pearson saw it and so was asked what should be given, Pearson is very much a yellow card and b0ll0cking sort of ref I can't remember him reaching for a red card. Hence I wasn't suprised he said yellow rather than red.

1) Ryan was counter rucking

After the ball was gone and Jones was starting to stand up? I think he was carrying on the niggle that DOC had started before he left the pitch. Unfortunatly for him Davies had, had his fill of the silly stuff and then took matters into his own hands (wrongly obviously).

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:07 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
MrsP wrote:So,

Those were all instances where the tackler lifted one of the tackled player's leg?
^ What does this mean?

It means, are these incidents EXACTLY like the Ferris tackle?

ie. the player is not lifted, just one of his legs?

You did say there were several indentical incidents which resulted in citings.

by TJ1 Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:10 pm

Mickado wrote:Having just watched them both.

1) Ryan was counter rucking
2) Davies should have been sent off, both Pearson and Barnes bottled it
3) Ferris tackle wasn’t a penalty, it’s exactly the same type of tackle you put in against a defending pillar to take them off their feet at a ruck.

Did you see the picture I posted? Did you read the rules I posted?

Its clearly in breach of the rules - no agenda from me - I am a scots fan.

You may argue the rules are wrong but its clearly a dangerous tackle according to the rules.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:11 pm

MrsP wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
MrsP wrote:So,

Those were all instances where the tackler lifted one of the tackled player's leg?
^ What does this mean?

It means, are these incidents EXACTLY like the Ferris tackle?

ie. the player is not lifted, just one of his legs?

You did say there were several indentical incidents which resulted in citings.

I think the Estebanez citing in the world cup was a lift on one leg, cant find a video though and I may be wrong.
The Ferris one did cause both legs to come off the ground. Still think its borderline mind.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:14 pm

MrsP wrote:

It means, are these incidents EXACTLY like the Ferris tackle?

ie. the player is not lifted, just one of his legs?

You did say there were several indentical incidents which resulted in citings.

You seem to have not read my post properly.

I said there have been several citings for tip tackles. Which is a fact.

I said Ferris should have been aware of the IRB cracking down on them. He stupidly wasn't. Just like Bradley Davies.

2 stupid tackles. 2 silly players.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:19 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
roddersm wrote:There is no rule which says lifting is an offence!

Dangerous Lifting is an offence! Was it dangerous? No.

The player came down horizontally onto his elbow. That is not dangerous and it is not an offence under any IRB law.

It was dangerous. Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials. It's been clampned down, and several players have been cited this season for identical tackles. The fact Ferris chose not to heed these as a warning is his fault.

I think I read it just fine.

You said several players have been cited this season for indentical tackles.

Which bit am I not reading correctly?

by Standulstermen Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:20 pm

I don't think you are going to see eye to eye on this regardless.

I do think barnes has to receive criticism. Pearson describes what happened then Wayne barnes knows the rules and the sanction without needing a recommendation.

We all know Pearson is clueless and I do sincerely hope that he is taken off the elite ref panel as this incident and his complete failure to officiate during the last big game he had warrant it. I think fans of all sides and players too need to see that there is some accountability for refs aswell

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:21 pm

Are you seriously comparing Ferris' tackle to what Davies did?

by nathan Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:23 pm

Mickado wrote:Having just watched them both.

1) Ryan was counter rucking
2) Davies should have been sent off, both Pearson and Barnes bottled it
3) Ferris tackle wasn’t a penalty, it’s exactly the same type of tackle you put in against a defending pillar to take them off their feet at a ruck.

I'm not sure how Barnes bottled it, he didn't even see the it happen and asked Pearson....

by Rava Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:23 pm

I can understand there are two arguments over this issue. Obviously from an Irish perspective we will favour our own. I still think it wasn't a penalty but then I'm Irish.

What I can't stand is armchair supporters calling Ferris stupid. This has happened here and on other threads. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest there was any intent to "lift" Evans. The guy made a genuine effort to tackle low to stop the player. His (not inconsiderable) momentum coupled with Evans turning his body caused the incident. I instruct in Manual Handling. I certainly wouldn't advocate any lifting from Ferris's starting position.

by gowales Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:25 pm

Rava wrote:I can understand there are two arguments over this issue. Obviously from an Irish perspective we will favour our own. I still think it wasn't a penalty but then I'm Irish.

What I can't stand is armchair supporters calling Ferris stupid. This has happened here and on other threads. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest there was any intent to "lift" Evans. The guy made a genuine effort to tackle low to stop the player. His (not inconsiderable) momentum coupled with Evans turning his body caused the incident. I instruct in Manual Handling. I certainly wouldn't advocate any lifting from Ferris's starting position.

We could say the same thing about Warburton's tackle

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:25 pm

MrsP wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
roddersm wrote:There is no rule which says lifting is an offence!

Dangerous Lifting is an offence! Was it dangerous? No.

The player came down horizontally onto his elbow. That is not dangerous and it is not an offence under any IRB law.

It was dangerous. Any tackle of that nature is deemed dangerous by the IRB and the officials. It's been clampned down, and several players have been cited this season for identical tackles. The fact Ferris chose not to heed these as a warning is his fault.

I think I read it just fine.

You said several players have been cited this season for indentical tackles.

Which bit am I not reading correctly?

Have you seen the tackle Justin Tipuric was cited and banned for?

If those are the laws, those are the laws. I don't ncesarily agree with them but the player was lifted dangerously. That isn't allowed!

Nowhere in the laws does it state how many feet the tacklee has to have off the ground for it to be deemed "dangerous".

by RubyGuby Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:28 pm

In New Zealand unless a player has 3 feet off the ground at the same time, anything goes Run

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:29 pm

After the ball was gone and Jones was starting to stand up?

I take that bit back, ball was still in so is fine.

What I can't stand is armchair supporters calling Ferris stupid. This has happened here and on other threads. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest there was any intent to "lift" Evans.

His arm lifting up his leg? I'm sure there was no intention to dump him and that the momentum of the tackle got away from him but if you lift a leg(s) then you become responsible for whatever happens afterwards.

by Mickado Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:30 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
if a TJ gives a ref a description like “lifted him, took him beyond horizontal and dropped him” then why would Barnes ask Pearson for a recommendation? That’s pretty clear cut.

Because he didn't see it? Barnes saw nothing and was only aware of an incident when POC pointed towards Person who was flagging. Pearson saw it and so was asked what should be given, Pearson is very much a yellow card and b0ll0cking sort of ref I can't remember him reaching for a red card. Hence I wasn't suprised he said yellow rather than red.

1) Ryan was counter rucking

After the ball was gone and Jones was starting to stand up? I think he was carrying on the niggle that DOC had started before he left the pitch. Unfortunatly for him Davies had, had his fill of the silly stuff and then took matters into his own hands (wrongly obviously).

The ball had most certainly not gone and Jones was most certainly not standing up.

by gowales Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:30 pm

RubyGuby wrote:In New Zealand unless a player has 3 feet off the ground at the same time, anything goes

Yea this aint tiddlywinks you know warning

(Umaga)

by HammerofThunor Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:31 pm

How was it dangerous? He didn't land on his neck or upper body. the laws aren't against someone's legs going over the horizontal. It just means that if they do then the tackler has complete responsibility for ensuring the player hits the ground safely. Which he did......IMO

by formerly known as Sam Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:39 pm

The ball had most certainly not gone and Jones was most certainly not standing up.

See amendment above your post.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:40 pm

Can't remember the Tipuric tackle.

What happened?

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:46 pm

MrsP wrote:Can't remember the Tipuric tackle.

What happened?

Not alot. Less than the Ferris one.

Point is - Ferris should have known not to lift a player. As the IRB have cracked down on it. He was silly. Penalty = correct desision.

by MrsP Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:48 pm

So....evidence?

And Ferris did not lift the player, he lifted on of the player's legs.

Has anyone a proper description or link to the Tipuric tackle?

by thomh Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:50 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
thomh wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:It was definitely a penalty............. the intent was to tip backwards and drive down, its clear as day. If Ian Evans wasn't about 10ft tall with about 6ft legs !! he would have been on his back.

Yellow card unfortunately yes!!............ its all about intent

No it isn't nor can it be. It's impossible to judge someone's intent, and basing punishment on intent doesn't allow for certain things such as recklessness. Someone may not intent to illegally tackle someone, but if they are being careless they still warrant punishment. Conversely, what if someone did intend to do an illegal tackle but was so incompetent that they didn't managed it?

I agree that there are angles where this tackle looks very bad, and it probably did warrant a penalty. I just don't think you can develop a rule that is based on intent.

Which is why the rule isnt their to punish intent. Its their to ensure that all tacklers use technique that minimises the chances of it happening.
The intent of the IRB weas to see this, like charging, driven out of the game altogether.

Whether he intended to tip the player or not isnt the question, the question is did he? If so card and possible citing. That is the law, and its their to respond to specific injury statistics...just like charging at rucks.

I agree. I was responding to a poster who had said that it was all about intent, which I don't think is feasible.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:51 pm

MrsP wrote:So....evidence?

And Ferris did not lift the player, he lifted on of the player's legs.

Has anyone a proper description or link to the Tipuric tackle?

Both his feet came off the ground, i assume you are aware that the legs are part of the player...so how is that not lifting the player?

by HammerofThunor Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:52 pm

The IRB are cracking down on dropping players on their head, not lifting players. If you tip someone and drop them so they land on their head/neck you get a red. It's not against the laws to lift someone. It's not against the laws to tip their legs above their waist.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 06 Feb 2012, 12:56 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The IRB are cracking down on dropping players on their head, not lifting players. If you tip someone and drop them so they land on their head/neck you get a red. It's not against the laws to lift someone. It's not against the laws to tip their legs above their waist.

But he did tip someone. And that someone did land upper body first!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUm9Whlaydc#t=3m08s

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