Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

And you would be rightly according to the law sent off and banned

Nobody is blaming the ref you moron.

mckay1402 wrote:And you would be rightly according to the law sent off and banned

And you would be told where to go, like I said. The referees don't complain about the tackle either so I doubt that highly. Just because some annoying "play-it-by-the-book" know it all comes down and gives his opinion, that doesn't make it a right. The people playing are happy enough with the tackle, and think it is a great tackle. So how can someone outside the game say it wasn't a good tackle? Have you actually played rugby yourself?

Ignore - double post.

There is disagreement on whether that constituted what is intended to be an illegal tip tackle or not.

We will find out of Barnes was correct or not when the citeing comission reports.

mckay1402 wrote:Furthermore I'd like to point out that whenever Wales are on the receiving end of a poor decision you lot can't wait to have a pop about us blaming the ref. So stop blaming the ref and accept that you lost to a better team

I know there are over 300 post on this but if you care to read back I cannot recall where any Irish poster didn't think Wales were the better team.

Whether Ferris is punished or not doesn't really change my opinion. The law needs changing if that is considered a bad tackle. Clearly written by a bunch of fairies if that is the case.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Whether Ferris is punished or not doesn't really change my opinion. The law needs changing if that is considered a bad tackle. Clearly written by a bunch of fairies if that is the case.

Well the IRB HQ is in Ireland - maybe they can replace your powder-puff centres ?

mckay1402 wrote:Furthermore I'd like to point out that whenever Wales are on the receiving end of a poor decision you lot can't wait to have a pop about us blaming the ref. So stop blaming the ref and accept that you lost to a better team

I've accepted that we lost to a better team in about 50 posts already. That is irrelevent Ferris tackle was not illegal. It wasn't a tip tackle, the referee has interperated it wrong and it is a bad descision. Every angle you view it, freeze frame or tilt your head and no matter how many times you read the IRB directive, it was a legitimate tackle.

munkian wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Whether Ferris is punished or not doesn't really change my opinion. The law needs changing if that is considered a bad tackle. Clearly written by a bunch of fairies if that is the case.

Well the IRB HQ is in Ireland - maybe they can replace your powder-puff centres ?

No wonder our centres can't tackle - they are being told off every time they do!

If by 'told off' you mean 'run over' then I concurr

Can't argue with that unfortunately.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Can't argue with that unfortunately.

Great game though. But its done, we can both go back to wanting to beat the French and the English

It won't be done when we witness the same thing against Malzieu, Picamoles and Rougerie! They will be no less devastating than your big runners, and will have an absolute field day. It is going to be a depressing 6 nations for the irish I feel

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It won't be done when we witness the same thing against Malzieu, Picamoles and Rougerie! They will be no less devastating than your big runners, and will have an absolute field day. It is going to be a depressing 6 nations for the irish I feel

Ah now, sometimes good to hit rock bottom - might mean a shakeup in coaching staff and blooding new players. Unless you are a Kidneyite. More devisive in Ireland than bloody religion !

Rory get a grip of yerself lad! BELIEVE!

Hey, BELIEVE in captial letters was our thing first !

roddersm wrote:

Him? At 13? No way! Have you lost the run of yourself Rodders? I'd still pick Earls.

Fly,

That is Earls

Firstly I would like to say that I'm not a moron, I have played rugby and only retired this season.

Secondly you say that as long as everyone on the pitch is happy then the laws should be disregarded? That seems like a good argument.

Thirdly all this moaning about how the ref didn't send off Davies but had the temerity to apply the law to one of your players is a little tedious. We didn't like it in the world cup but it doesn't change the fact that it was the correct decision.

I do have some sympathy with the case because it was borderline but it was given so get over it.

mckay1402 wrote:Secondly you say that as long as everyone on the pitch is happy then the laws should be disregarded? That seems like a good argument.

Who said that? The IRB laws are clear but the referee didn't follow them.

Davies was a straight red and Ferris was a legitimate tackle. Theres nothing borderline about it.

The fact that Ferris is an ulsterman and an Irish player has nothing to do with it, if it was Dylan Hartley or Jamie Cudmore I'd be saying the same thing. If the referees are going to start penalising legitimate tackles then the game has no future.

Hopefully the citing commision will see sense.

Yes I hope they do see sense and ban him. I just watched it back again and the more I see it the more ridiculous these posts seem. It wasn't a legitimate tackle in rugby union. He lifted his leg and attempted to drive him into the ground. According to the IRB laws that is illegal.

mckay1402 wrote:Yes I hope they do see sense and ban him. I just watched it back again and the more I see it the more ridiculous these posts seem. It wasn't a legitimate tackle in rugby union. He lifted his leg and attempted to drive him into the ground. According to the IRB laws that is illegal.

No it isn't.

Perhaps you'd like to post the law that you think it is in violation of?

BlueNote wrote:It is a shame that Wales have won controversially in the last two 6N encounters between the two sides.

I really get annoyed by people still bringing up what happened 12 months ago. I'll say it before, I'll undoubtedly say it again that if we take the points off from that try and the three that Ireland had for one of your kicks scored after a blatant BOD knock on, Wales still would have won. So it isn't controversial really.

As for Saturday, well again it isn't that controversial because Wales were the better side and did deserve the win.

Driving a player backwards and sideways whilst lifting one leg is not illegal, not under the new laws and not under the old. If it was there would be 30 yellow cards a game.

It wasn't marginal and it wasn't borderline. It was a legitimate tackle.

Anyway, all this bickering is missing the point that Scotland have slipped out of the top ten in favour of Samoa.

Meaning the top 10 are dominated by the Southern Hemisphere. With the top 5 only interrupted by France.

By this view, the 6N, it's moral victories and controversies are becoming a global irrelevance, or side show at best.

It can't have been legitimate as the ref sent him off. the ref is law

mckay1402 wrote:It can't have been legitimate as the ref sent him off. the ref is law

Yes, because the ref never makes mistakes

You are on a roll my friend. Keep it up.

The IRB create the laws, the ref is there to enforce them not invent them.

If the referee can't distinguish between a legitimate tackle and dangerous play, on a matter so clear cut, then he shouldn't be in the job. The IRB have clarified the rules to make it easier and he still can't get it right.

Anyway we'll agree to disagree.

Well according to all three of the pundits after the game it was an illegal tackle according to the laws but the laws need more clarity. It obviously isn't clear cut or he wouldn't have been cited. Had he not been cited then your argument might hold some weight but as he has then the citing commisioner must feel that broke a law.

I didn't say refs never make mistakes. They are the law and their word is final. He gave a penalty and yellow card and as we welsh fans have been told on so many occasions suck it up and get over it.

roddersm wrote:Driving a player backwards and sideways whilst lifting one leg is not illegal, not under the new laws and not under the old. If it was there would be 30 yellow cards a game.

It wasn't marginal and it wasn't borderline. It was a legitimate tackle.

100% agree.

mckay1402 wrote:Well according to all three of the pundits after the game it was an illegal tackle according to the laws but the laws need more clarity.

Let's remember that the pundits on show during the RWC thought that Warburton was harshly treated too. Pundits =Welsh= Not qualified referees or representatives of the IRB.

mckay1402 wrote:Yes I hope they do see sense and ban him. I just watched it back again and the more I see it the more ridiculous these posts seem. It wasn't a legitimate tackle in rugby union. He lifted his leg and attempted to drive him into the ground. According to the IRB laws that is illegal.

Which law prevents this exactly? If you're going to keep playing this "letter of the law" thing, then you should at least know the laws.

miteyironpaw wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:Well according to all three of the pundits after the game it was an illegal tackle according to the laws but the laws need more clarity.

Let's remember that the pundits on show during the RWC thought that Warburton was harshly treated too. Pundits =Welsh= Not qualified referees or representatives of the IRB.

I have no idea where =Welsh= came from. I swear that said "=" when I posted it.

Southampton Osprey wrote:Bradley Davies reacted to a blatant blind-side shoulder charge by Donnacha Ryan to Adam Jones...Bakkies Botha got banned for a similar offence that put Adam Jones out of the game for 6 months. Fair enough, Bradley got carded for it, but something should be done about Ryan's offence too. Also, did anyone else think that Conor Murray's knees in the back of Jon Davies was a tad cynical? Not really much of an attempt to get the ball, was it? A yellow card for both sides was about right...and we won! Woo-hoo!

Wales could also complain about the blatant knock on in the 6th minute from Tommy Bowe with 2 Wales players unmarked outside him. If Tommy hadnt knocked the ball out of the air the chances are Wales would of scored.

Both teams could point to things to be honest but the referee had a good game and wasnt knit picking he let the teams play rugby, which Wales did better than Ireland on the day.

The ref thought it was illegal the citing officer and his assistants agreed with him. I presume they know the laws.

Do I want Ferris banned ? No I don't for the simple reason I want Ireland to have the strongest team available against France.

Do I want Davies banned? Yes for at least the duration of the 6N

(j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Anyone care to point out which part of Evans' head/upper body come into contact with the ground?

LINK

Cymroglan wrote:The ref thought it was illegal the citing officer and his assistants agreed with him. I presume they know the laws.

Do I want Ferris banned ? No I don't for the simple reason I want Ireland to have the strongest team available against France.

Do I want Davies banned? Yes for at least the duration of the 6N

Wrong, I was lucky enough to be stuck in Llantwit major for 8 hours yesterday with nothing but my lap top and the Wales V Ireland game, so I watched it 4 times.

The referee said to the lineman "I saw nothing", and asked him what happened and then asked him for a recommendation.

The Irish player cheap shotted Adam Jones, and Bradley sorted him out. To me what goes around comes around I have no sympathy for the Irish player, but a 2 week ban to Bradley seems fair.

What should of happened is the Irish player had a yellow, and Bradley red, but Ireland got no yellow, (again after Bowe knocked on in the 6th minute, so they escaped a second one really too) and Wales got a yellow instead of red, so it evens out.

HammerofThunor wrote:(j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Anyone care to point out which part of Evans' head/upper body come into contact with the ground?

LINK

Are his arms not part of his upper body ? Fortunately for him he was able to get his arm down first.
Let's not forget that he is 6ft 8 and to get a leg above his head takes some lifting.

What about this one then. Stephen Jones yellow carded for a tip tackle on Tommy Bowe. Personally, I think that both this and the Ferris one shouldn't be penalties. Well, should in the current laws, but I feel these are too strict. With the Stephen Jones tackle, which he got a yellow card for, the speed of Bowe meant that his momentum carried him over. I don't think Stephen Jones had any intention, and I don't feel he could have done much differently apart from either letting him run through without trying to tackle him or just lying on the floor and hoping Bowe trips over him. Seriously, the game is getting too soft. I know that Jiffy gets on most non-welsh fans' nerves, and some welshies too, but I agree with him that these sort of tackles are ok. It's miles different than a proper spear tackle. If a player drives a player head first into the mud then fine, Red and ban. But delicately placing a 100 kilo man back on the ground, making sure his shoelaces are nicely tied and his pillow is plumped is just not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUmQ_7AF4Fw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


We'll have to go to touch rugby soon because players will be too scared to tackle. Actually, we'll then probably have yellow cards for players 'touching' too hard.

There was lots missed by Barnes, but it made for a more fluent game. What about Kearny jumping early and taking out priestland? What about Phillips being taken out n the air?

The problem is that Rolland set the bench mark.

I can see mrsp's point.

AlynDavies wrote:The Irish player cheap shotted Adam Jones, and Bradley sorted him out. To me what goes around comes around I have no sympathy for the Irish player, but a 2 week ban to Bradley seems fair.

What should of happened is the Irish player had a yellow, and Bradley red, but Ireland got no yellow, (again after Bowe knocked on in the 6th minute, so they escaped a second one really too) and Wales got a yellow instead of red, so it evens out.

Bradley ought to get longer than 2 weeks. I don't mind players retaliating per se, but I wish he had gone for the classic punch instead of what he did. I am pretty sure he didn't set out to break Ryan's neck as I have been seeing said though. Bad brain fart on his part and he will rightly serve a lengthy ban. A punch would also have been a little more subtle than openly dumping someone.

slartibartfast wrote:There was lots missed by Barnes, but it made for a more fluent game. What about Kearny jumping early and taking out priestland? What about Phillips being taken out n the air?

The problem is that Rolland set the bench mark.

Theres a world of difference between the warburton tackle and that one. And a ref can only call what he saw, or is convinced that he saw.
Obviously Pearson screwed up massively in reccomending yellow for the Davies one. But Barnes didnt see that at all. The Ferris one, its really not a clear cut case at all. The suspicion is that he felt inclined to reach for the card as hed already penalised a welsh player for the same offence.
Throughout the game yes any ref misses or wrongly interprets a number of events. But its quite obvious the Ferris tackle is not an easy one to adjudge ( unlike Warburton WC and Davies) as after umpteen pages of arguing noone has made a clear cut case either way. Its certainly one that didnt have the feel of a penalty offence. Its nothing to do with Rolland having set a benchmark with warburton, that rule has been around for 3 years now and was reitterated twice before Rolland made that call, as well as used on a number of occasions.
Whereever the line is set in the rulings there will always be grey areas, and there will always be slight under or over calls. But in this case we can say it was borderline, so noone can be overly upset that the ref jumped one way and made a decision. Well what I mean is noone should be, reading half teh tripe posted here its pretty clear they can be.
If the IRB are satisfied that that is the type of tackle that they are trying to eradicate then he will receive a ban. Or they may simply uphold that yellow was correct, or dismiss it altogether saying that was wrong.
Personally I believe the yellow will be upheld as correct with no further punishment required. Barnes did his job and had the guts to enforce the rules. The easiest option for a ref is always to not see it ( something hes made two massive screw ups in this and the previous fixture by doing). That he missed or didnt make calls in other cases shouldnt mean he cant make this one.

Griff wrote:What about this one then. Stephen Jones yellow carded for a tip tackle on Tommy Bowe. Personally, I think that both this and the Ferris one shouldn't be penalties. Well, should in the current laws, but I feel these are too strict. With the Stephen Jones tackle, which he got a yellow card for, the speed of Bowe meant that his momentum carried him over. I don't think Stephen Jones had any intention, and I don't feel he could have done much differently apart from either letting him run through without trying to tackle him or just lying on the floor and hoping Bowe trips over him. Seriously, the game is getting too soft. I know that Jiffy gets on most non-welsh fans' nerves, and some welshies too, but I agree with him that these sort of tackles are ok. It's miles different than a proper spear tackle. If a player drives a player head first into the mud then fine, Red and ban. But delicately placing a 100 kilo man back on the ground, making sure his shoelaces are nicely tied and his pillow is plumped is just not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUmQ_7AF4Fw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


We'll have to go to touch rugby soon because players will be too scared to tackle. Actually, we'll then probably have yellow cards for players 'touching' too hard.

Stephen Jones wasnt cited over that, they felt he had no case to answer.
It was a bad call by the ref, not a problem with the laws.

As for the touch rugby comment, they keep saying that in soccer yet players still get crippled by bad tackles every year.

Get over it Ireland lost because they got dominated,
Dominated by a bunch of Welsh teenagers with a hand full of caps between them.

Is it really that difficult for people to understand that you can discuss one particular tackle without implying that this was why Ireland lost?

What on earth knock-ons by Tommy Bowe or Mike Phillips or even Ryan charging into a ruck have to do with whether the tackle Ferris made was legal is well beyond me.

This isn't about why Ireland lost, it's just trying to figure out what people think about a particular tackle.



Is that very hard to comprehend?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:There was lots missed by Barnes, but it made for a more fluent game. What about Kearny jumping early and taking out priestland? What about Phillips being taken out n the air?

The problem is that Rolland set the bench mark.

Theres a world of difference between the warburton tackle and that one. And a ref can only call what he saw, or is convinced that he saw.
Obviously Pearson screwed up massively in reccomending yellow for the Davies one. But Barnes didnt see that at all. The Ferris one, its really not a clear cut case at all. The suspicion is that he felt inclined to reach for the card as hed already penalised a welsh player for the same offence.
Throughout the game yes any ref misses or wrongly interprets a number of events. But its quite obvious the Ferris tackle is not an easy one to adjudge ( unlike Warburton WC and Davies) as after umpteen pages of arguing noone has made a clear cut case either way. Its certainly one that didnt have the feel of a penalty offence. Its nothing to do with Rolland having set a benchmark with warburton, that rule has been around for 3 years now and was reitterated twice before Rolland made that call, as well as used on a number of occasions.
Whereever the line is set in the rulings there will always be grey areas, and there will always be slight under or over calls. But in this case we can say it was borderline, so noone can be overly upset that the ref jumped one way and made a decision. Well what I mean is noone should be, reading half teh tripe posted here its pretty clear they can be.
If the IRB are satisfied that that is the type of tackle that they are trying to eradicate then he will receive a ban. Or they may simply uphold that yellow was correct, or dismiss it altogether saying that was wrong.
Personally I believe the yellow will be upheld as correct with no further punishment required. Barnes did his job and had the guts to enforce the rules. The easiest option for a ref is always to not see it ( something hes made two massive screw ups in this and the previous fixture by doing). That he missed or didnt make calls in other cases shouldnt mean he cant make this one.

I didn't say it was the same tackle as warbs. I'm saying that it set the benchmark ie. what was nothingnow becomes a penalty, what was a penalty now becomes yellow.

This has become is a mess like the scrum.

I'll be honest Mrs P, the only thing that's hard for me to comprehend is how this discussion is still ongoing, because the whole discussion is just going round in circles.

It's also a little disappointing that this keeps popping up at the top of the board, when the match discussion (a great match) has dropped off (I think). I am aware of the irony of me posting saying about this thread appearing up the top and my post helping to bump it again

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Griff wrote:What about this one then. Stephen Jones yellow carded for a tip tackle on Tommy Bowe. Personally, I think that both this and the Ferris one shouldn't be penalties. Well, should in the current laws, but I feel these are too strict. With the Stephen Jones tackle, which he got a yellow card for, the speed of Bowe meant that his momentum carried him over. I don't think Stephen Jones had any intention, and I don't feel he could have done much differently apart from either letting him run through without trying to tackle him or just lying on the floor and hoping Bowe trips over him. Seriously, the game is getting too soft. I know that Jiffy gets on most non-welsh fans' nerves, and some welshies too, but I agree with him that these sort of tackles are ok. It's miles different than a proper spear tackle. If a player drives a player head first into the mud then fine, Red and ban. But delicately placing a 100 kilo man back on the ground, making sure his shoelaces are nicely tied and his pillow is plumped is just not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUmQ_7AF4Fw&feature=youtube_gdata_player


We'll have to go to touch rugby soon because players will be too scared to tackle. Actually, we'll then probably have yellow cards for players 'touching' too hard.

Stephen Jones wasnt cited over that, they felt he had no case to answer.
It was a bad call by the ref, not a problem with the laws.

As for the touch rugby comment, they keep saying that in soccer yet players still get crippled by bad tackles every year.

Ok, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the touch rugby comment. However, I do think the laws need to be looked at. Picking up, tipping and driving is blatant and obvious. IMO you can't do it by accident. Tipping someone can be done by accident and I think some leniency needs to be observed in the laws (e.g. The stephen jones and ferris tackles).

The big problem as I see it is that players will start to use this as a way of gaining advantage. You'll see players going into tackles and tipping themselves so that they land on their head/neck so that they can get a penalty and perhaps a 1 man advantage. Don't say that it won't happen; we're already seeing an increase in players diving, back chatting the ref, telling the ref he should be issuing cards, etc. How long til they 'spring' their legs in a tackle so that they're vertical and appear to have been tipped?!