Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 09 Feb 2012, 1:50 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:The Irish official is quoting them - he would not be so stupid as to lie, as to do so would make him look foolish, when the report became public.

How do you know that Kearney deliberately misrepresented the hearing, something you have said repeatedly, when you haven't read the report ?

You can't have it both ways.

So, we'll leave it there, and find out in the report whether the citing panel have [needlessly] undermined a referee and basically said Wayne Barnes handed Wales a win.

by Rava Thu 09 Feb 2012, 1:52 pm

[quote="Chunky Norwich"]

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by Rory_Gallagher Thu 09 Feb 2012, 1:53 pm

So all that whining and bitching was potentially for nothing?

laughing

by Standulstermen Thu 09 Feb 2012, 1:55 pm

Guys I seriously think you need to leave it. I have the guy on ignore so I don't know the crux of it but rava you should do that rather than rising to his bait.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 09 Feb 2012, 1:57 pm

Well I personally find it pretty hilarious!

by Chunky Norwich Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

It's really not bait. The fact you think it is underlines the defensive attitude of some.

by miteyironpaw Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I haven't seen the reports either but the Ireland manager Mick Kearney (who accompannied Ferris to the disciplinary meeting) said "the disciplinary panel itself felt that the decision to award a penalty was incorrect" now either he's telling the truth or he's lying there's no grey area and he isn't implying anything.

I would say it's most likely he's telling the truth as he would be caught in a lie very easily here.

Exactly. Do you think the disciplinary committee (even if they did say that) would want that info aired in public?

Kearney has cocked up big style. He's let his sour grapes overcome his proffessionality.

Proffessionality ? Whistle

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:04 pm

Can we go back to talking about tossing salad now?

by Glas a du Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:43 pm

Behave will you! The tomatoes are blushing. tomato

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:50 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Can we go back to talking about tossing salad now?

With you on that, PSW! Dressed or undressed? Whistle

by Glas a du Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:54 pm

Stick of celery with cheesy dip?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 09 Feb 2012, 2:57 pm

Its surely better than focussing on an Irishmans tackle, although I suppose we can excuse MrsP for that one.

by Glas a du Thu 09 Feb 2012, 3:03 pm

Yes she has a soft spot for the man in question. It's a brave woman who wants to 'mother' S. Ferris!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 09 Feb 2012, 3:12 pm

Ive heard he can be a bit rough and gets the odd leg over, but nothing illegal.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 09 Feb 2012, 3:16 pm

Official Press Release from the 6Nations:

DISCIPLINARY UPDATE - STEPHEN FERRIS DECISION
9 February 2012, 2:01 pm
By Hashim Piperdy
At a disciplinary hearing in London today, the citing made against Stephen Ferris was considered but not upheld.
The independent Six Nations Disciplinary Committee, chaired by Antony Davies (England) together with Douglas Hunter (Scotland) and John Doubleday (England) met to consider a citing complaint under Law 10.4(j) by Achille Reali (Italy) the independent Citing Commissioner appointed for the RBS 6 Nations match between Ireland and Wales in Dublin at the weekend.

The Committee, after careful analysis of the video evidence and consideration of the player’s and his representative’s explanation of the tackle, did not uphold the citing.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 09 Feb 2012, 3:19 pm

No info in that about whether they said it should have been a penalty. I look forward to the transcript.

by Glas a du Thu 09 Feb 2012, 3:20 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ive heard he can be a bit rough and gets the odd leg over, but nothing illegal.

It's a pity this isn't soccer or we could be talking about "coming in two footed from behind" Rolling Eyes

by Cymroglan Thu 09 Feb 2012, 5:48 pm

The independent Six Nations Disciplinary Committee would not have discussed if it should have been a penalty or not that is not their job.

The panel are there to decided if further punishment beyond what was dished out by the ref is warranted.
In this case they decided that the refs decision was sufficient punishment.
If you expect that the report will say that the ref got it wrong in awarding a penalty then I'm afraid you will be disappointed but on the other hand what was said privately and probably in confidence is another matter..

by HammerofThunor Thu 09 Feb 2012, 6:42 pm

That's not necessarily true. First they have to decide if an offence was committed. Then they decide the punishment and whether previous sanctions were sufficient. If they ruled that it did count as a 'tip-tackle' or whatever the official term is then what was wrong with the tackle? They won't have said 'a penalty shouldn't have been given' but if they say it wasn't a tip tackle then a penalty shouldn't be given. It means the same thing.

by Adam D Fri 10 Feb 2012, 1:30 pm

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

Will edit into OP

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 1:41 pm

So Keatley / Kearney whatever his name is = Liar?

Or is this nothing to do with the citing panel?

by **rodders** Fri 10 Feb 2012, 1:48 pm

Chunky read the report mate. It says that they can see why the ref awarded the penalty in real time but after analysis it was concluded that it was a legitimate tackle.

That does not contradict Kearney.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 10 Feb 2012, 1:49 pm

The internet will make further comment then.

It appears what they are saying is what many of us said all along, its not entirely clear whether it should have been a no call or a yellow card.
They seem pretty keen to avoid critisizing the ref

by dummy_half Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:00 pm

The second paragraph of the IRB statement is interestingly phrased - seems to suggest that it was very much a borderline case as to whether or not it was a dangerous tackle to the Law. Interesting that it states explicitly that they endorse Barnes's decision to give the penalty, but then concludes (implicitly) that it actually was a legal tackle (hence no further sanction).

If I were a referee, I would take this (again, implicitly) as guidance that when in doubt on a marginal call like this , to err on the side of penalising, and then let the disciplinary panel sort things out after the fact.

by Mickado Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:02 pm

If they decided that it was a tip tackle he would have been given a ban. So by virtue of the fact that he wasn’t banned then we can infer that it shouldn’t have been a penalty.

by **rodders** Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

The IRB will always back the ref Peter.

"On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris"

That is extremely clear cut. There was no offence committed it just could of appeared that way on first viewing.

by geoff998rugby Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:09 pm

Excactly they are saying the ref got it wrong but they only came to that conclusion are repeated viewing of the video. They understand perfectly why a penalty was given, given that the referee did not have the benefit of repeated slow motions. As such no criticism of the referee should be implied

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:09 pm

Adam D wrote:
The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

Will edit into OP

I emailed the 6N press office yesterday asking for clarification on the Ferris citing outcome:

...
There have been a number of questions sent in by some of our readers
asking for clarification of the Stephen Ferris citing hearing. Did the
disciplinary committee decide that the on-field yellow card was sufficient
punishment, or did they find that the tackle was legitimate?

Also, are there going to be more detailed reports on the Ferris and Davies
hearings at a later date?
...

Now where did I put that "patting myself on the back" emoticon. Result Very Happy

(well, in my mind anyway Wink

)

by MrsP Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:09 pm

Exactly what some of us have been saying since Sunday.

Competely understand why Barnes said yellow but actually, when you get a chance to watch it in slomo, legal tackle.

As the Irish team manager said.

Fo you think all the .... Whistle

...posters who said "penalty all day long", "definate yellow", " I hope he gets the same ban as Davies" will all come and accept they were wrong?

by brennomac Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

So the IRB circles the wagons and defends the indefensible - surprise, surprise

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

Mickado wrote:If they decided that it was a tip tackle he would have been given a ban. So by virtue of the fact that he wasn’t banned then we can infer that it shouldn’t have been a penalty.

How, in gods name do you work that one out?

The penalty was for a dangerous tackle. Which it was. Clearly.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:11 pm

MrsP wrote:

Fo you think all the .... ...posters who said "penalty all day long", "definate yellow", " I hope he gets the same ban as Davies" will all come and accept they were wrong?

For the record, I have not read one comment that said that on this message board.

Sensationalists claptrap from you yet again.

by eirebilly Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:13 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Mickado wrote:If they decided that it was a tip tackle he would have been given a ban. So by virtue of the fact that he wasn’t banned then we can infer that it shouldn’t have been a penalty.

How, in gods name do you work that one out?

The penalty was for a dangerous tackle. Which it was. Clearly.

Hee hee, not giving up Chunky, are you. You scoundrel boxing

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:13 pm

Cassartelli or whatever has said that Davies deserves no ban but Ferris does, so you might just have selective reading.

by dummy_half Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:14 pm

Rodders
Except the release also includes the (contradictory) statement:
"the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty."

So I'd dispute your comment that it is 'extremely clear cut'. Two sentences in the same paragraph, on of which explicitly states that the decision to award a penalty was correct, and one which implies that there was no offence. Must have been written by a lawyer (or more likely, a team of lawyers...) Erm

by Mickado Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Mickado wrote:If they decided that it was a tip tackle he would have been given a ban. So by virtue of the fact that he wasn’t banned then we can infer that it shouldn’t have been a penalty.

How, in gods name do you work that one out?

The penalty was for a dangerous tackle. Which it was. Clearly.

But a dangerous tackle would carry a ban. So it was determined that the tackle wasn't dangerous. If the tackle isn't dangerous then why was a penalty given?

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:15 pm

Chunky why are you so whiny about this anyway? Why do you care so much, and are getting yourself all worked up over it? All the crap you said yesterday is proved wrong, and infact you said when you have the proof that you are an "honest man" (HA) and you will admit to being wrong and take it all back. Yet you still persist to moan and bitch.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:15 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Cassartelli or whatever has said that Davies deserves no ban but Ferris does, so you might just have selective reading.

Missed that post and not heard of that poster. It's quite clearly a wind up or that poster doesn't watch much rugby.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:17 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
MrsP wrote:

Fo you think all the .... ...posters who said "penalty all day long", "definate yellow", " I hope he gets the same ban as Davies" will all come and accept they were wrong?

For the record, I have not read one comment that said that on this message board.

Sensationalists claptrap from you yet again.

From https://www.606v2.com/t23448p50-two-players-cited-after-weekend#935475

mckay1402 wrote:I've just watched it back again and in my mind there is no doubt that Ferris lifted the leg above his own head and tried to drive evans to the ground. I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

There were a lot of people who got VERY ~~one-eyed~~ parochial in their views earlier in the week.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:17 pm

And you do? So far any opinion on rugby I have heard from you is total nonsense. Yesterday you said some hilarious thing about Heaslip, and I literally just laughed and let it go, because I'm sure you raised more than a few eyebrows with your analysis.

by MrsP Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:22 pm

Thank you Kiwi!

I do think Chunky is trying for the World Record in the,

"How many times can I be wrong in less than a week" category.

I think he'll manage it you know!

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:22 pm

[quote="Rory_Gallagher"]Chunky why are you so whiny about this anyway? Why do you care so much, and are getting yourself all worked up over it? [quote]

Because the likes of the Irish Team manager are determined to try and bring the game into disrepute by regurgitating what is at the moment hearsay - all to make a point that he thinks Ireland were cheate dout of a result.

All the crap you said yesterday is proved wrong, and infact you said when you have the proof that you are an "honest man" (HA) and you will admit to being wrong and take it all back. Yet you still persist to moan and bitch.

The transcript isn't out yet brains.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:23 pm

I don't know if he is genuinely THAT stupid though or he is just a very good WUM. If he is, props to him because he is doing a good job. If not, well I would just pretend you are a WUM anyways because that is pretty embarrassing Laugh

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:24 pm

Fair play that post from mckay1402 is nosnense.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:25 pm

Thing is, I gave an opinion on Heaslip, and I was called a troll, a wind up merchant and god knwos what else.

All for having an opinion.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:25 pm

[quote="Chunky Norwich"][quote="Rory_Gallagher"]Chunky why are you so whiny about this anyway? Why do you care so much, and are getting yourself all worked up over it?

Because the likes of the Irish Team manager are determined to try and bring the game into disrepute by regurgitating what is at the moment hearsay - all to make a point that he thinks Ireland were cheate dout of a result.

All the crap you said yesterday is proved wrong, and infact you said when you have the proof that you are an "honest man" (HA) and you will admit to being wrong and take it all back. Yet you still persist to moan and bitch.

The transcript isn't out yet brains.

So unless you get the complete transcript, even though all the proof is there anyways, you still think you aren't wrong?

And here you were gurning about personal abuse on the other thread, so don't give it if you can't take it.

Laugh

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:26 pm

Mickado wrote:

But a dangerous tackle would carry a ban. So it was determined that the tackle wasn't dangerous. If the tackle isn't dangerous then why was a penalty given?

Sorry, but this is total nonsense.

In the laws, a tackle can be demed worthy of a penalty by being dangerous. Read the laws.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:27 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

So unless you get the complete transcript, even though all the proof is there anyways, you still think you aren't wrong?
:

Tell me, very simply, so even I can understand it, what I am wrong about.

Thanks

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:27 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Thing is, I gave an opinion on Heaslip, and I was called a troll, a wind up merchant and god knwos what else.

All for having an opinion.

But we both know that isn't all you did. Everytime a player is mentioned (strangely it is usually an irish one) you will come in with snide comments that don't even hold up. You do it all the time, and you did it with Tuilagi too. If your opinions are useless, keep them to yourself because if I started saying North was a crap player, nobody would take me seriously and I would quite clearly be wrong.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 10 Feb 2012, 2:27 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:Fair play that post from mckay1402 is nosnense.

In fairness to the man he backed off it later on.

We pretty much had a day on here where the Welsh lined up on one side, the Irish on the other, and everyone let fly. Some normally pretty sensible posters lost their heads completely. Sigh.

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