Lions XV

First topic message reminder :

Starting XV only. If the 1st test was tomorrow, and all are fit and well:

1. G Jenkins
2. M Rees
3. D Cole
4. R Gray
5. P O'Connell
6. S Ferris
7. S Warburton
8. S O'Brien

9. M Phillips
10. J Sexton
11. T Bowe
12. J Roberts
13. B O'Driscoll
14. G North
15. L Halfpenny

geoff998rugby wrote:Reality is a Lions team now would be 7 to 9 Welshmen, 5 or 6 Irishmen and a token Scotsman and/or Englishman. That is where we are.

Pretty insulting to be fair. Pretty much the entire Scotland Pack could compete for any position in the Lions.

I would also say we could offer a scrum half and perhaps a winger or 2.

1. Healy
2. Ford/Best
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip/Faletau (Heaslip outplayed Faletau last game IMO)

9. Care
10. Sexton/Priestland
11. Visser
12. Roberts
13. O'Driscoll (if fit)
14. North
15. Kearney

I'm ignoring who's played international this season, just going with who I think are best. I know Care hasn't been playing for England but I think he's the best scrum half in Britain and Ireland.

Sean I am actually ok with that team with a caveat Visser and Care have a lot to do/prove yet - not a million miles from my own thinking.

Not sure about O'Driscoll. His pace is gone but he still has the knack to be in the right place at the right time to score and the vision to put others into space. Plus his leadership. Maybe if he was surrounded by all the pace and power the Lions will have at their disposal, that's all he'd need.

So far I don't see Faletau getting the 8 shirt.

Honestly I think Care is the best scrum half there is. The only reason he's not starting for England is because of the drink driving incident. I feel he'd be the best option for a high tempo game which we should play against the Aussies. Mile Philips is only really picked for his size which isnt necessary against Australia. I also think his service is too slow

With Visser I'm not sure. If he translates his club form to test form he should be nailed on. There's too many great options so I picked Visser to up the Scottish representation.

sean.c wrote:. I know Care hasn't been playing for England but I think he's the best scrum half in Britain and Ireland.

Danny Care?

What do you think he adds to the Lions team that say Murray or Phillips don't?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Not sure about O'Driscoll. His pace is gone but he still has the knack to be in the right place at the right time to score and the vision to put others into space. Plus his leadership. Maybe if he was surrounded by all the pace and power the Lions will have at their disposal, that's all he'd need.

I think BOD might start at 12. I hope he starts there for Ireland too when he comes back.

geoff998rugby wrote:bsando Vissser was given the run around by Trimble a few weeks back - until he plays International rugby he cannot be considered.

Visser did the same to Bowe last season. Stood him up then went round him.

Until he's scoring international tries we won't know.

Would rather have a more dynamic second row over POC. Great player against slower NH teams, maybe not so great against the dynamic fast moving SH teams.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

sean.c wrote:. I know Care hasn't been playing for England but I think he's the best scrum half in Britain and Ireland.

Danny Care?

What do you think he adds to the Lions team that say Murray or Phillips don't?

I think he's got a quicker service than either. Philips is incredibly overrated IMO but is still one of the best options. I would have Murray over Philips as he's got a faster service, but can at times revert to the Tomas O'Leary style of play circa 2009

On that I agree (not saying Care is the best by any means) but his service is considerably quicker than either Philllips or Murray.

sean.c wrote:

I think he's got a quicker service than either. Philips is incredibly overrated IMO but is still one of the best options. I would have Murray over Philips as he's got a faster service, but can at times revert to the Tomas O'Leary style of play circa 2009

Wow. I agree with the exact opposite of everything you said.

So Phillips is one of the worst options? Agreed

I think the Irish second row was very effective against the Aussie's in the RWC. More effective than Welsh duo. The whole Irish pack was brilliant that day actually. O'Connell's been on top form since his long injury layoff last year. Plus he's an inspirational leader and the best there is in the lineout. Himself and Gray would be a great partnership. That said they're not the only two options. Lawes, AWJ, Charteris etc. are really good too.

The Lions will have so many quality options all over the field. Wales are the form team. But there's no shortage of quality individuals in England, Scotland and Ireland. In fact all three teams have beaten Australia in recent years. It'll be a very strong squad. I reckon the backline will be dominated by Welsh players. But in the pack there's a big pool of top class players to choose from, with lots of contenders from all four nations.

It'll be a serious pack no matter who's picked. If the management can get the best out of them we'll win this series.

The half backs are difficult to pick at the moment. Sexton and Priestland have shown flashes of real brilliance but also flashes of poor kicking under pressure. I'd go with Phillips at the moment at 9. he is a big game player. But I agree his size won't be needed so much against the Aussie's and there are players with quicker service.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think the Irish second row was very effective against the Aussie's in the RWC. More effective than Welsh duo.

Alun-Wyn Jones didn't play against Australia. He's integral to Wales' set piece and grunt IMO.

1. G Jenkins
2. R Ford
3. A Jones
4. R Gray
5. Hamilton
6 D Lydiate
7. Rennie
8. Faletau
9. Dickson
10. Priestland
11. Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Halfpenny.

If Ireland had of played and played as well as they did a week ago they would definitely have four or five players included.

Feckless Rogue wrote: I'd go with Phillips at the moment at 9. he is a big game player. But I agree his size won't be needed so much against the Aussie's and there are players with quicker service.

I don't get this logic.

You wouldn't pick a smaller prop than Adam Jones because the Aussie scrum is tradiitionally not their strong point? You pick the best man for the job with the best all round game.

I agree Phillips is the best option at the moment. I think he was one of the Lions best players in 2009. But I'd be open to the idea of a player with quicker service playing at 9, even if he's a bit less physical.

I agree, don't really rate Phillips, never have. He never really fitted the profile of a Scrum half for me.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The half backs are difficult to pick at the moment. Sexton and Priestland have shown flashes of real brilliance but also flashes of poor kicking under pressure. I'd go with Phillips at the moment at 9. he is a big game player. But I agree his size won't be needed so much against the Aussie's and there are players with quicker service.

That was part of my original point I am still waitign for a 9 and a 10 to get ahead of the pack in terms of selection. Both positions are very open.

How can Philiips pass be anything other than slow he takes more steps than Boss when passing to the right - it really doesn't look good.

If you have any confusion with some of the selection I will gladly discuss it with you.
1.Cian Healy
2.Rory Best
3.Mike Ross
4.Stephen Ferris
5.Paul O'Connell
6.Sean o'Brien
7.Warburton
8.Jamie Heaslip ( Faletau is a wannabe player)
9.Connor Murray or Mike Phillips depends on the matches before the tests.
10. Jonathan Sexton (anyone who says Rhys Priestland should start shouldn't be allowed to watch another match)
11.George North
12.Jamie Roberts
13.Bod
14.Tommy Bowe
15.Rob Kearney

I think you should explain your obvious pro-Wales bias here...

V good, Ian

Mods, pls can we merge this nonsense OP with the other Lions thread?

What no Scots???

Scotland came within 15 points of beating someone on the weekend and you haven't included at least 6 of them ....disgraceful.

They were closer the week before. Disallowed try...! Should've won it

maestegmafia wrote:They were closer the week before. Disallowed try...! Should've won it

maes, we had one of those this weekend too! They're all the rage, don't you know!! Bit like English charge downs

1. G.Jenkins (Healy is a good player but Jenkins is the best prop on the planet)
2. R.Best
3. A.Jones
4. R.Gray
5. P.O'Connell
6. S.O'Brien
7. S.Warburton
8. T.Faletau
9. M.Phillips
10. R.Priestland
11. G.North
12. J.Roberts
13. O'Driscoll
14. Halfpenny
15. Kearney

16. Healy
17. M.Rees
18. L.Charteris
19. S.Ferris/D.Lydiate
20. C.Murray
21. J.Sexton
22. J.Davies/M.Tuilagi

1. Jenkins
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Ferris
6. O'Brien
7. Warburton/ Rennie/ Barclay/ Robshaw
8. Denton/ Heaslip/ Faletau
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. Ashton/ Visser/ Cuthbert
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Kearney/ Halfpenny/ Hogg

As much as anyone can say now two scots are nailed on - Ford and Gray. Some of the scots back row are likely to play but so many good players in the home nations with so little between them

A couple might come of age laidlaw and Hogg - and Visser we will have seen playing internationals by then.

Why is there all this love for Ross Ford?

Can someone explain to me what it is that he does, that other hookers on these shores don't do?

Thanks.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why is there all this love for Ross Ford?

Can someone explain to me what it is that he does, that other hookers on these shores don't do?

Thanks.

Chunky, I'll help you with that one. He does pretty much the same as Rees, Best and Hartley. In the past, his throwing in was poor, but that hasn't been the case for a couple of years now. His scrummaging is pretty strong. He's v dynamic in the loose, one of Scotland's main carrier, and his tackle stats are excellent too. Now he's added leadership (with Scotland's captaincy) to that too. Pretty much everything that you would want in a hooker

It's also helped that Rees hasn't been playing for Wales, and that Hartley isn't playing particularly well at the moment. Meanwhile Ford is in the form of his life and has just become Scotland captain.

This thread was initially about form selections, and on that basis the selection at hooker must be between Ford and Best.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: his tackle stats are excellent too. :

4 tackles v England
9 v Wales

As a comparison, Ken Owens has made the same amount (13) in the 6Nations so far. And he's only played what 50 mins?

Ford is a decent player but he's not in the same league as the other 3. In my opinion.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: his tackle stats are excellent too. :

4 tackles v England
9 v Wales

As a comparison, Ken Owens has made the same amount (13) in the 6Nations so far. And he's only played what 50 mins?

Ford is a decent player but he's not in the same league as the other 3. In my opinion.

Chunky, i suspected that would be the case! Only 4 tackles vs England, but that's cos we had he ball most of the time, and I don't want him tackling his own side Oh, and he's not a B&I Lion for nothing

How many hookers will the Lions take on tour? If it’s 3 then Best, Ford and Rees are top of the list. I don’t rate Hartley, I think he can buckle under pressure.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: Only 4 tackles vs England, but that's cos we had he ball most of the time, and I don't want him tackling his own side Oh, and he's not a B&I Lion for nothing

Jacobsen managed 6 mate. He's hardly the most mobile Scottish forward.

I personally think Ford is a good thrower, pretty good scrummager but doen't do enough around the pitch.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: Only 4 tackles vs England, but that's cos we had he ball most of the time, and I don't want him tackling his own side Oh, and he's not a B&I Lion for nothing

Jacobsen managed 6 mate. He's hardly the most mobile Scottish forward.

I personally think Ford is a good thrower, pretty good scrummager but doen't do enough around the pitch.

Wales game: Bennett 0 carries for 0m, Owens 5 carries for 4m, Ford 13 carries for 20m
England game: Hartley 1 carry for 4 m, Ford 11 carries for 12m

As just pointed out by ASBO, if you only look at one stat then you'll be misled (in fact far better just to watch the game without stats in my view).

Teams use players for different things, as we all learnt the hard way on that other thread re: Falatau and Denton, when the stat monkeys got their knickers in a twist.

Ford is used by Scotland and by Edinburgh mainly as a ball carrier. Yes, he tackles, but his role is to compete for the ball on the floor (effectively acting as an auxillary scavenger) and to carry when Scotland have possession.

I personally think he's a pretty rounded player and could fit a number of systems, but it's his ball carrying and throwing that has come on leaps and bounds this season. I used to think he wasn't as influential around the park as he should be given his pace and size, but this season I think he's the top ball carrying hooker in the Rabo12.

On form, he must be in the top three.

Yeah sorry I meant in defence and around the frinegs. Ross is a good carrier and he does alot going forward but seems to go missing in defence.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah sorry I meant in defence and around the frinegs. Ross is a good carrier and he does alot going forward but seems to go missing in defence.

Furry muff, Chunky, we'll have to agree to differ

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: Only 4 tackles vs England, but that's cos we had he ball most of the time, and I don't want him tackling his own side Oh, and he's not a B&I Lion for nothing

Jacobsen managed 6 mate. He's hardly the most mobile Scottish forward.

I personally think Ford is a good thrower, pretty good scrummager but doen't do enough around the pitch.

Have you actually watched any games? He is like another back rower round the pitch - the best part of his game - he tidies up a lot of rubbish ball as well.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah sorry I meant in defence and around the frinegs. Ross is a good carrier and he does alot going forward but seems to go missing in defence.

Furry muff, Chunky, we'll have to agree to differ

I guess the selection will prove one of us right / wrong.

There's 4 big names mentioned in the hooker department. One will miss out if all are fit.

Is Flannery scheduled to come back to fitness?

TJ wrote:

Have you actually watched any games? .

No. I just comment on rugby forums. I actually don't have a televison.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah sorry I meant in defence and around the frinegs. Ross is a good carrier and he does alot going forward but seems to go missing in defence.

Furry muff, Chunky, we'll have to agree to differ

I guess the selection will prove one of us right / wrong.

There's 4 big names mentioned in the hooker department. One will miss out if all are fit.

Is Flannery scheduled to come back to fitness?

Not sure tbh, altho he may be getting a bit long in the tooth by then anyway? Ford, Best and Rees to tour for me

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No. I just comment on rugby forums. I actually don't have a televison.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No. I just comment on rugby forums. I actually don't have a televison.

Yeah that's pretty obvious considering some of the comments you are making about one of Scotland's best players. He is a fantastic carrier, makes his takcles when they are needed, solid in the scrum, accurate in the line out, quick in the loose and a menace at the breakdown.

Not really sure what more you want from a hooker. Do you want him to take the kicks at goal too?

Best and Ford at the moment are clear Lions starters due to the fact Rees has been out of international rugby for a wee while. Confused as to why he is getting so many mentions.

Ford is a brilliant player. Simple as that.

Flannery was once the best hooker of the home nations. By far the best lineout thrower and an animal in the loose. But that was years ago now. He's been riddled with injuries for a long time and is quite old. I think he's finished at test level to be honest. Best was awesome in the RWC. One of our best players against Australia. And has been awesome for Ulster since then. He is a very good scrummaging hooker. His work rate in the ruck and in defence is better than the other contenders. It's just his lineout throwing can unravel under pressure. But I think all the potential hookers have difficulties in that regard.