vitali vs haye afterall???

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i've read that haye might be facing vitali first afterall, with wlad still not recovered from his stomach injury

http://www.sportinglife.com/boxing/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=boxing/11/03/21/manual_210627.html&BID=543

i think most people would see this as a much tougher fight than it would be with wlad- and would be an embarressment to haye after saying how he's going to knock both brothers and unify the belts if he was to lose the first fight. with it been written into the new contract that haye could fight either brother, i wonder if this is a trick played by the k bros to embrass haye after all whats gone on between them- after all wlad himself admitted that vitali is much stronger.

I'm sure Vitali has a good chin, but generally he has taken on less impressive opponents than his brothers. He's defeated 3 world champs since first winning the title. I wouldn't particularly bank on Haye to stop him, but a stronger puncher may be able to do it. Haye could slow him up or effect him with his power.

Vitali looked a bit wobbily in the Lennox Lewis fight, a stoppage was on the cards in the next few rounds anyway. But, actually cutting could be the greater disadvantage and who knows in later rounds that may come into play.

Heavyweights can often compete at 40, but there is almost always a decline. Shannon Briggs was a fringe contender in the 1990s, he shouldn't have been in the ring (ranked outside top 25). Arreola was alright, but Sosnowski, Johnson and Gomez are not major victories. If one had the choice I reckon Vitali would be the pick to face in the ring.

wow_junky wrote:Of course he will pose a challenge, he has speed and angles, something Vitali hasn't seen for a while, but if a slugging Lewis couldn't put Vitali down I just can't see how Haye will - especially when you consider that Haye only created ONE opportunity to hurt Valuev properly in their fight and couldn't capitalise

Well, Haye broke his hand in the 2nd round. Valuev also has a medical condition i believe which has resulted in him having an abnormally large and thich skull. Not being able to put Valuev away with a broken right hand doesn't, IMO, mean that Haye can't put Vitali away.

I too, do not buy into this idea that Vitali is somehow 'unkockoutable'. If he gets hit hard enough often enough then he will go, just like any man

The 'unkockoutable' comment wasn't really aimed at you btw wow, I understand your point about Vitali's chin standing up against Lewis.

Gentleman,

Stranger things have happened, I just am of the opinion that Haye won't be good enough to create the chances to KO Vitali.

One thing that often gets overlooked is Vitali's counter punching ability as well, he is pretty effective at it (he looks like PBF compared to Ruiz, Harrison and Valuev anyway) - I think there is an equal chance of Haye being caught lunging in as there is with Haye landing a decent punch

wow_junky wrote:Gentleman,

Stranger things have happened, I just am of the opinion that Haye won't be good enough to create the chances to KO Vitali.

One thing that often gets overlooked is Vitali's counter punching ability as well, he is pretty effective at it (he looks like PBF compared to Ruiz, Harrison and Valuev anyway) - I think there is an equal chance of Haye being caught lunging in as there is with Haye landing a decent punch

Absolutely agree about Vitali being a class apart from what Haye has faced so far in his career. However, I think Haye is a different animal to what Vitali has faced in recent years, this coupled with his ageing, and I am of the opinion Haye will not have as much trouble landing as he would on Wlad. For this reason I see Vitali as the more winnable fight for Haye.

Although, I find it very difficult to pick a winner out of either of these match-ups...

as far as punching power goes lewis over haye every time without fail.

The one thing that either Klitschko hasn't faced in the past few years is someone with speed AND power. Eddie Chambers is quick but ultimately ineffective due to his lack of power. Arreola and Peter are thunderous punchers but are as slow as a bulldozer.

Arreola, Peter and Briggs defended with their faces and basically gave up. Solis had a knee problem going into the fight and his fascination with pies made sure he was in no fit state to fight Vitali. He gave him a few minor problems early on. Danny Williams offered his chin at every given opportunity and was out of his depth.

Rahman and Briggs were way past their best and Ibragimov only wanted to hold and was overawed.

The only fighter who I think has been a half decent opponent in recent times was Chagaev and he had only fought once in 18 months and was clearly not at his best.

How will the K Bros deal with a quick fighter with a hard punch? I'm not saying Haye is the be all and end all because he's not and could easily be out of his depth. However, I do admire the way he WANTS to fight the best to prove himself and sod the mandatories.

I think he has his tactics to beat both brothers. Will it work? Maybe.

I see Wlad being a KO or be KO'd fight for Haye. Vitali will be more of a chessmatch

My biggest woory about Haye is he uses the same approach he did against Valuev. The hit and run tactics I don't see working against either brother think they would just manage to nick more rounds than Haye. I don't think Haye fighting either brother will be a good fight bit of a chess match but hold out more hope for the Wlad fight being the better of the 2 due to his glass chin.

prettyboy1304 wrote:My biggest woory about Haye is he uses the same approach he did against Valuev. The hit and run tactics I don't see working against either brother think they would just manage to nick more rounds than Haye. I don't think Haye fighting either brother will be a good fight bit of a chess match but hold out more hope for the Wlad fight being the better of the 2 due to his glass chin.

In fairness though, pretty boy, we shouldn't forget that Haye was forced in to changing his tactics and fight plan early on against Valuev because he broke his hand in the opening stages, which is why he had to fight a little more defensively. I think Haye is smart enough to realise that fighting in bursts as he did against Valuev won't be anywhere near as effective against the Klitschkos, but even against the Russian giant Haye demonstrated that 'in and out' speed which will give both Wladimir and Vitali nightmares.

88Chris05 wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:My biggest woory about Haye is he uses the same approach he did against Valuev. The hit and run tactics I don't see working against either brother think they would just manage to nick more rounds than Haye. I don't think Haye fighting either brother will be a good fight bit of a chess match but hold out more hope for the Wlad fight being the better of the 2 due to his glass chin.

In fairness though, pretty boy, we shouldn't forget that Haye was forced in to changing his tactics and fight plan early on against Valuev because he broke his hand in the opening stages, which is why he had to fight a little more defensively. I think Haye is smart enough to realise that fighting in bursts as he did against Valuev won't be anywhere near as effective against the Klitschkos, but even against the Russian giant Haye demonstrated that 'in and out' speed which will give both Wladimir and Vitali nightmares.

No m8 totally agree with that but do think that both K's are much smarter and more technically gifted fighters than Valuev who I never rated. Think especially Vit would work a way out to deal with that kind of tactic whereas Valuev just couldn't deal with it. I feel that Haye needs to fight a high tempo and really work the body of either K we don't know how good they are in the later rounds when their in a tight fight or maybe even behind on the cards. Think under those cicumstances Wlad could become a bit errattic and go headhunting and Haye could take him out with his speed, movement and punching power

wow_junky wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

wow_junky wrote:Yeah, Haye setting a high tempo against Vitali is a great idea, especially as Haye has very dodgy stamina and Vitali is quite capable of throwing 1000 punches in a fight!

I can't see how Haye is going to outbox Vitali, he barely outboxed Valuev who has no skills, no speed, no power - albeit he has 3 inches in height over Vitali but that doesn't make up for the fact he is worse in every single area.

When was the last time Vitali threw a thousand punches in a fight?

He threw 80 a round against Arreola over 10 rounds, and 800 against a Briggs over 12 rounds. Not quite 1000, but not far off. Put it this way - he's far more proven to be an active 12 round fighter than Haye is.

Its very easy throwing 1000 punches against a stationary target. But when that target is mobile and punching back, it makes you think before opening up. He wont be throwing 80/round when caught often.

Haye may be a loudmouth, and someone who irritates some people but he is a smart fighter and I have no doubt that him and Adam Booth will have worked out the correct strategy to beat Wlad and Vit. Whether David can implement it is a different matter.

Also, Vit may be able to throw 800 punches a fight, but against Haye so many more punches will miss and be avoided and hitting air will sap his strength and stamina more than constantly hitting the walking punchbags of Briggs et al. Maybe this will have an effect on him, maybe it won't.

JDizzle wrote:Haye may be a loudmouth, and someone who irritates some people but he is a smart fighter and I have no doubt that him and Adam Booth will have worked out the correct strategy to beat Wlad and Vit. Whether David can implement it is a different matter.

Also, Vit may be able to throw 800 punches a fight, but against Haye so many more punches will miss and be avoided and hitting air will sap his strength and stamina more than constantly hitting the walking punchbags of Briggs et al. Maybe this will have an effect on him, maybe it won't.

I largely agree. But the K Bros will also devise a plan to fight a speedy fighter such as Haye.

azania wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Haye may be a loudmouth, and someone who irritates some people but he is a smart fighter and I have no doubt that him and Adam Booth will have worked out the correct strategy to beat Wlad and Vit. Whether David can implement it is a different matter.

Also, Vit may be able to throw 800 punches a fight, but against Haye so many more punches will miss and be avoided and hitting air will sap his strength and stamina more than constantly hitting the walking punchbags of Briggs et al. Maybe this will have an effect on him, maybe it won't.

I largely agree. But the K Bros will also devise a plan to fight a speedy fighter such as Haye.

Will they though? I would argue that the Klits are a lot more predictable in what their style will be than Haye is. I think Wlad will go with his strategy of cautious defence, and trying to jab his opponent into submission. The onus is on Haye to try and figure out this style and negate it. I honestly think the outsome of Haye/Wlad relies on Haye. Wlad will box his normal game, and the question is whether Haye can pick this apart. Whether he has the ability to or not, is a different matter which I do not want to call!

JDizzle wrote:

azania wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Haye may be a loudmouth, and someone who irritates some people but he is a smart fighter and I have no doubt that him and Adam Booth will have worked out the correct strategy to beat Wlad and Vit. Whether David can implement it is a different matter.

Also, Vit may be able to throw 800 punches a fight, but against Haye so many more punches will miss and be avoided and hitting air will sap his strength and stamina more than constantly hitting the walking punchbags of Briggs et al. Maybe this will have an effect on him, maybe it won't.

I largely agree. But the K Bros will also devise a plan to fight a speedy fighter such as Haye.

Will they though? I would argue that the Klits are a lot more predictable in what their style will be than Haye is. I think Wlad will go with his strategy of cautious defence, and trying to jab his opponent into submission. The onus is on Haye to try and figure out this style and negate it. I honestly think the outsome of Haye/Wlad relies on Haye. Wlad will box his normal game, and the question is whether Haye can pick this apart. Whether he has the ability to or not, is a different matter which I do not want to call!

They'd be stupid not to. They are highly intelligent people and know thatHaye comes with a totally different skill set that they have been used to. They would train to accommodate that. Add in the Manny Stewaard factor and you have a winning formula. They'd get light heavies and fast heavies to mimic haye's speed and devise a plan to compensate for it whilst drawing on their skills to devise a plan to beat haye.

azania wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

azania wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Haye may be a loudmouth, and someone who irritates some people but he is a smart fighter and I have no doubt that him and Adam Booth will have worked out the correct strategy to beat Wlad and Vit. Whether David can implement it is a different matter.

Also, Vit may be able to throw 800 punches a fight, but against Haye so many more punches will miss and be avoided and hitting air will sap his strength and stamina more than constantly hitting the walking punchbags of Briggs et al. Maybe this will have an effect on him, maybe it won't.

I largely agree. But the K Bros will also devise a plan to fight a speedy fighter such as Haye.

Will they though? I would argue that the Klits are a lot more predictable in what their style will be than Haye is. I think Wlad will go with his strategy of cautious defence, and trying to jab his opponent into submission. The onus is on Haye to try and figure out this style and negate it. I honestly think the outsome of Haye/Wlad relies on Haye. Wlad will box his normal game, and the question is whether Haye can pick this apart. Whether he has the ability to or not, is a different matter which I do not want to call!

They'd be stupid not to. They are highly intelligent people and know thatHaye comes with a totally different skill set that they have been used to. They would train to accommodate that. Add in the Manny Stewaard factor and you have a winning formula. They'd get light heavies and fast heavies to mimic haye's speed and devise a plan to compensate for it whilst drawing on their skills to devise a plan to beat haye.

Wlad is not going to suddenly change from his game plan that has got him to this position. He is going to be cautious and try to keep Haye and range with the jab and not give him any angles to throw punches from. Obviously he will spar with people with speed on, but I don't think there are many people out there who can imitate Haye's style, speed, and power. He may make a few minor changes, but the basis of his strategy will be the same as ever. I feel that Wlad's style is easier to be replicated in the gym with sparirng partners, and this will help Haye more. It will be completely different getting in the ring with Wlad than with any sparring partner, but Haye's advantage is that he knows what Wlad's game plan will be and he can try to counter it. Also, there is very little that Wlad can change to counter Haye. They way to beat him is keep him at range with the jab and not let him get his power shots off which is Wlad's basic plan anyway.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

prettyboy1304 wrote:My biggest woory about Haye is he uses the same approach he did against Valuev. The hit and run tactics I don't see working against either brother think they would just manage to nick more rounds than Haye. I don't think Haye fighting either brother will be a good fight bit of a chess match but hold out more hope for the Wlad fight being the better of the 2 due to his glass chin.

In fairness though, pretty boy, we shouldn't forget that Haye was forced in to changing his tactics and fight plan early on against Valuev because he broke his hand in the opening stages, which is why he had to fight a little more defensively. I think Haye is smart enough to realise that fighting in bursts as he did against Valuev won't be anywhere near as effective against the Klitschkos, but even against the Russian giant Haye demonstrated that 'in and out' speed which will give both Wladimir and Vitali nightmares.

No m8 totally agree with that but do think that both K's are much smarter and more technically gifted fighters than Valuev who I never rated. Think especially Vit would work a way out to deal with that kind of tactic whereas Valuev just couldn't deal with it. I feel that Haye needs to fight a high tempo and really work the body of either K we don't know how good they are in the later rounds when their in a tight fight or maybe even behind on the cards. Think under those cicumstances Wlad could become a bit errattic and go headhunting and Haye could take him out with his speed, movement and punching power

i don't think anything would change wlads tactics of using the jab to set the straight whilst keeping the oppenent at bay and walking them down.

Wlad won't change anything for this fight in terms of tactics, because what he does works.

It is up to haye to forece the fight and unsettle him, taking him out of his comfort zone.

Haye needs to employ lateral movement, short bursts of punches and a well concentrated body attack to draw Klistchko out of his defesnive shell and make him tire as the fight goes on.

samevans1 wrote:Wlad won't change anything for this fight in terms of tactics, because what he does works.

It is up to haye to forece the fight and unsettle him, taking him out of his comfort zone.

Haye needs to employ lateral movement, short bursts of punches and a well concentrated body attack to draw Klistchko out of his defesnive shell and make him tire as the fight goes on.

And whilst doing that against Wlad, Haye tires himself leaving him open for more jabs and the strsight right to KO him.

Well, he has to change something. Wlad will do what he always does. It will be down to Haye to force the pace of the fight and to make Wlad fight at an intensity or speed he is uncomfortable with.

samevans1 wrote:Well, he has to change something. Wlad will do what he always does. It will be down to Haye to force the pace of the fight and to make Wlad fight at an intensity or speed he is uncomfortable with.

Yep, and when Haye does that his stamina issues will rear its head again. Haye needs to KO Wlad inside 4 rounds to win otherwise he loses by KO later.

azania wrote:

samevans1 wrote:Well, he has to change something. Wlad will do what he always does. It will be down to Haye to force the pace of the fight and to make Wlad fight at an intensity or speed he is uncomfortable with.

Yep, and when Haye does that his stamina issues will rear its head again. Haye needs to KO Wlad inside 4 rounds to win otherwise he loses by KO later.

Think you're being a bit harsh on Haye and very generous to Wlad. Haye is a good athlete and I don't see this being a high tempo scrap. Bit of a chess match I see it the other way I think Wlad may tire and get frustrated from chasing Haye about and start headhunting and give Haye the oppurtunity to KO him late in the fight.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

azania wrote:

samevans1 wrote:Well, he has to change something. Wlad will do what he always does. It will be down to Haye to force the pace of the fight and to make Wlad fight at an intensity or speed he is uncomfortable with.

Yep, and when Haye does that his stamina issues will rear its head again. Haye needs to KO Wlad inside 4 rounds to win otherwise he loses by KO later.

Think you're being a bit harsh on Haye and very generous to Wlad. Haye is a good athlete and I don't see this being a high tempo scrap. Bit of a chess match I see it the other way I think Wlad may tire and get frustrated from chasing Haye about and start headhunting and give Haye the oppurtunity to KO him late in the fight.

I haven't seen Haye fight at a high tempo. He does have stamina issues, moreso than Wlad imo. Wlad is a good boxer with a winning formula for him. Haye has to use more energy staying on the outside and darting inside to score combos. By doing that he will tire faster than Wlad who will stay on the outside shooting out jabs all night long. His speed and jab is under-estimated imo.

Vit is a different proposotion and haye has a better chance against him that with Wlad.

I'd agree that its near on impossible to judge Vits stamina because very rarely is he in the ring with someone whn dictates the pace

Haye has matured now. Feel it is unfair not to give him the benefit of the doubt. He seems much more effective at keeping to a fight plan in the past few years than he was when he was younger.

samevans1 wrote:Haye has matured now. Feel it is unfair not to give him the benefit of the doubt. He seems much more effective at keeping to a fight plan in the past few years than he was when he was younger.

Its not a question of being fair or unfair. Haye has matured as a fighter. But so has Wlad. Vit is over matured hence imo he would be an easier and more winnable fight for Haye. Wlad's all round boxing skills are just too good for Haye. Adding the huge weight disparity Haye will face and Wlad's ramrod jab.

Plus Wlad has a fitter girlfriend.

Can see your point about Vitali being easier to be fair. Just think that Wlad hasn't had a hard fight in years. If Haye can force the fight and unsettle him early, he might well get some joy.

I dont think Haye is appraoching this from the perspective of trying to win on points - which is a tall order against either brother.

The fact he has been so adamant on it being Wlad and has gone to great lengths to distance himself from Vitali suggest he sees Wlad as the much more winnable fight.

Wlad may be the technically better boxer now but hes by far the more vunerable. And I think this is what Haye is pinning his hopes on. Wlad has a better jab than Vitali now but is far less agressive and I think this suits Haye. Hes happy for Wlad to box behind his jab cautiously rather than be faced with the prospect of Vitali just walking him down and being able to take his punches.

The pace of the fight will be slower with Wlad allowing Haye to look for openings and ease himself into the fight. I think he prefers this rather than having Vitali constantly pressuring him.

Wlad is harder to hit than Vitali but the difference is it could potentially only take one time for it to count against Wlad whereas he could hit Vitali all night and still potentially lose by KO or points.

manos de piedra wrote:Wlad may be the technically better boxer now but hes by far the more vunerable. And I think this is what Haye is pinning his hopes on. Wlad has a better jab than Vitali now but is far less agressive and I think this suits Haye. Hes happy for Wlad to box behind his jab cautiously rather than be faced with the prospect of Vitali just walking him down and being able to take his punches.

That sums it up for me, he's unlikely to decision either and Wlad is far more likely to get knocked out than Vitali, he may be quite slow now but would imagine he would be more than willing to simply walk Haye down and ground him down with constant pressure.

samevans1 wrote:Can see your point about Vitali being easier to be fair. Just think that Wlad hasn't had a hard fight in years. If Haye can force the fight and unsettle him early, he might well get some joy.

Haye's only hope is a KO. I just cant see it happening.

You hit someone enough you will stop them.....Look at Buster and Iron Mike...Everybody can be taken out with enough pressure.

Think Vlad is a disgrace really unless it's mind games....I mean the mount of unjust stick Haye has got over the last year or so for ducking etc....

Vitali for me is the harder option as he can take a shot....he will also force Haye to work more and come out of his comfort zone...Why I see Haye in the middle rounds or Vitali by late stoppage..

Saw how Vlad crumbled against Sanders...Haye is too quick not to land so for me he wins.....

Shows you that brothers owning belts at the same weight is bad for Boxing.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You hit someone enough you will stop them.....Look at Buster and Iron Mike...Everybody can be taken out with enough pressure.

Think Vlad is a disgrace really unless it's mind games....I mean the mount of unjust stick Haye has got over the last year or so for ducking etc....

Vitali for me is the harder option as he can take a shot....he will also force Haye to work more and come out of his comfort zone...Why I see Haye in the middle rounds or Vitali by late stoppage..

Saw how Vlad crumbled against Sanders...Haye is too quick not to land so for me he wins.....

Shows you that brothers owning belts at the same weight is bad for Boxing.

Vitali is too slow and ready made for Haye imo. As for the mind games, tough ti tty. Its all part and parcel of boxing.

Haye thinks Wlad is fit (ahem) http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12183_6845116,00.html