The Official 2013 Wales v England bickering thread.

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

2013 bickering thread

OK, every year we see threads that actually contain really good rugby discussion derailed by the ongoing Wales vs England bickering and WUMMING! I will name no names. I guess we have all been guilty.

Since most of the general bickering comes from the respective fans of Wales and England ; I thought I would create a thread for it in an effort to keep decent rugby discussion relatively WUM free in other threads.

Let it commence

[bluestonevedder]

Can't agree with you more mystiroakey and morgannwg

Really annoys me, all this petulant cynicism.

I get annoyed by all this temporary Jingoism, ah well, all over soon

It's only temporary if you believe it to be. But, if you prefer to idly squabble over whose country's better or more oppressed because of x political movement and the repression of y, that's fine. Just carry on, I don't mind and I'm sure everyone else that's embracing the sports doesn't really care either!

[mystiroakey]

What are you two on about jeas! its history lads.. you might as well blame a couple of villages thousands of years ago for fighting amongst each other

The concept of a United Kingdom has been dead from birth. It always was smeared with blood due to the subject nations being forced at gunpoint to declare themselves unified with England, that is if they were allowed the privilege of declaring anything at all. Would you be able to live with that if you were from Wales, Scotland or NI?

same in the rest of the world mate.. stop the victim mentality..boundaries have been put up everywhere

[Knowsit17]

What are you two on about jeas! its history lads.. you might as well blame a couple of villages thousands of years ago for fighting amongst each other

The concept of a United Kingdom has been dead from birth. It always was smeared with blood due to the subject nations being forced at gunpoint to declare themselves unified with England, that is if they were allowed the privilege of declaring anything at all. Would you be able to live with that if you were from Wales, Scotland or NI?

same in the rest of the world mate.. stop the victim mentality..boundaries have been put up everywhere

Same as much of the rest of the world has earned freedom through the moral right of not having to suffer the indignity of subjection to another country just because they were invaded years ago. As an Englishman I wouldn't expect you to be familiar with that indignity

[mystiroakey]

knowsit it doesnt affect you mate. dont think it does. we are all the same these days.

saying to me "as an englishman i wouldnt..." tells me your brain is a wash with immaterial xenaphobic bs, yet nothing material

[munkian]

So why bother with the six Nations if we are all the same ?

If all the teams who have an emnity towards England rolled over Pax Romana style it would be a very dull afair and the banter would be rubbish

[mystiroakey]

we invented these sports pal. We should keep the historic sporting teams!

By your rationale why have club teams?

why compete regionaly?

[Comfort]

I love the team GB stuff at the olympics

And the Lions

The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem.

Well, as far as i know.

[mystiroakey]

"The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem"

its not the english anthem- its the british anthem....

We sing the british anthem and as an englishman I feel like we need our own when we compete individually. So you have got that confused.

However i dont care who sings it or who doesnt.

[gowales]

I love the team GB stuff at the olympics

And the Lions

The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem.

Well, as far as i know.

I don't think those Welsh footballers sing the Welsh anthem so...

[munkian]

we invented these sports pal. We should keep the historic sporting teams!

By your rationale why have club teams?

why compete regionaly?

Um, thats not my 'rationale' at all. And you examples didn't make any sense.

You said

'knowsit it doesnt affect you mate. dont think it does. we are all the same these days.'

Hense my response - 'If we are all the same...'


It wasn't the British Olympics anyway, it was the London Olympics.

[mystiroakey]

yeah and i am a londoner so

[munkian]

It shows

[mystiroakey]

Why thank you. I will take it as a complement

[Morgannwg]

I love the team GB stuff at the olympics

And the Lions

The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem.

Well, as far as i know.

But they were playing for GB, they were wearing the kit and as far as we know it is the British anthem. Therefore, they should have sung. Their reaction to the announcement that they'd be playing for GB (as opposed to Wales) at the olympics was embarrassing enough.

[munkian]

Hang on, Surrey isn't London you wanna be, I was raised in Clapham

[mystiroakey]

i was raised in wimbledon(also lived in london most of my life- including clapham) and i now live in kent- my office is in surrey- so

I am still a londoner- silly billy

[munkian]

I love the team GB stuff at the olympics

And the Lions

The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem.

Well, as far as i know.

But they were playing for GB, they were wearing the kit and as far as we know it is the British anthem. Therefore, they should have sung. Their reaction to the announcement that they'd be playing for GB (as opposed to Wales) at the olympics was embarrassing enough.

Nobody HAS to sing. How many of the Welsh rugby team stay stony silent during Land of my Fathers ? Anyway, the Welsh scored the goals - isn't that more important

[mystiroakey]

muniken surely we only brought the welsh in so they might score a penalty

[munkian]

Its Munkian

And yes, we are united in failiure


Jebus Zombie Christ is it not rugby season yet ?

[Morgannwg]

Nobody HAS to sing. How many of the Welsh rugby team stay stony silent during Land of my Fathers ? Anyway, the Welsh scored the goals - isn't that more important

Only Gavin Henson ever did. The rest sing it rather passionately. True they carried team GB , just why didn't they take the bloody penalties!

[munkian]

That's not true at all, plenty of the most dedicated Welsh players in the current squad don't sing. It doesn't make them less dedicated or passionate about the game ahead.

I'm pretty sure Warburton doesn't sing and was asked about it in an interview once or twice.

[mystiroakey]

bellamy did well- so did ramsey- anyway football overall was lameo in the end! we actually played some ok stuff though- I was pleased. As a massive england football fan i would love it if we had you welshies all the time. I honestly think we would win something together. I know you lot would hate that- but from my selfish want to win pov - I want you there

[Knowsit17]

knowsit it doesnt affect you mate. dont think it does. we are all the same these days.

saying to me "as an englishman i wouldnt..." tells me your brain is a wash with immaterial xenaphobic bs, yet nothing material

This is a banter thread and I say if we all wum together we can make this the best bickering thread we've had yet, even if it is a Hersh product. Where's your sporting sense mystir

It also allows the opportunity to touch on a controversial topic. As xenophobic/nationalist as I may be (and for the sake of argument I'm not interested in social divorce between the British nations, only in each having independent status instead of this UK carp) you can bet I'm not so much as the English troops who shed our blood to tell us that their monarch was now our monarch

[Knowsit17]

"The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem"

its not the english anthem- its the british anthem....

We sing the british anthem and as an englishman I feel like we need our own when we compete individually. So you have got that confused.

However i dont care who sings it or who doesnt.

Here's where I have to disagree again. How can it be the British anthem if only one out of four British member nations consider it as such? You'll find there's not much different between trying to tell me and others that GSTQ is our anthem whether we like it or not and the imperial campaigns of centuries back to conquer and subject other people.

I will personally never associate myself with GSTQ, one reason being that it's a dirge, possibly the least appealing anthem I've ever heard. Another being that I will under no circumstances give in to swearing allegiance to the queen or any monarch for that matter.

Sorry but if we do live in a democracy then it's my right to deny subjection to a person with a so-called god-given right to call themselves our ruler. In a world where to join the military you must still swear allegiance to an elitist cow rather than the shores you wish to defend and pay a portion of your tax so that her family can afford a holiday to the Caribbean, the lies of imperialism being slain long ago by democracy in western society stand exposed for all to see.

[mystiroakey]

"
Here's where I have to disagree again. How can it be the British
anthem if only one out of four British member nations consider it as
such? You'll find there's not much different between trying to tell me
and others that GSTQ is our anthem whether we like it or not and the
imperial campaigns of centuries back to conquer and subject other
people.

I will personally never associate myself with GSTQ, one
reason being that it's a dirge, possibly the least appealing anthem I've
ever heard. Another being that I will under no circumstances give in to
swearing allegiance to the queen or any monarch for that matter."

your xenophbia crys out here- its not our anthem either- do you not get that- i dont relate to it either. It isnt my or your choice- sadly!

stop trying to make out we(english) are different from the rest of the UK, your just showing of your xenaphobia

[mystiroakey]

realities

1. we all have the same opportunities.
2. we are in a union.
3. the welsh want to stay in the union.
3. we do things better together.
4. i didnt hurt or r*** your population.
5. none of my english neighbours did either.
6. Most of us english cant relate to that anthem either! I am no roalylist and i am not religious- I cant think of a more pointless anthem!

the rest is history- and it needs to stay there- concentrate on the day- If you wanna become the welsh alex salmond- fair play- As much as i hate salmond at least he has done something about his ideas!

[Knowsit17]

What part of that last comment was xenophobic? I only pointed out clear flaws on an island which claims to be democratic when in reality it still falls well short of that particular accolade.

How anyone tolerates the monarchy, let alone plays right along with it like the masses that enter hysteria for such elitist events as the royal wedding and the diamond jubilee is something that always shocks me.

I never suggested that all English people are elitists or that they're all obsessed with upholding the old order.

In the interest of ending this line of discussion I'll say fair play for not being a monarchist and apologies if you did genuinely take any of my comments as offence. I've got no problem with the English, in fact some of the finest and most admirable people I know are English.

My take on GSTQ still stands, I can ramble to no end about it such is the extent I dislike it.

[majesticimperialman]

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN should not even be a National Anthem at all for any country. In my opinion.

The National Anthem shoulod be about the (COUNTRY) That it is being sung about. It should not be about 1 PERSON, or the saving of 1 person.

There fore GSTQ should be scrapped as a National Anthem.

[Knowsit17]

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN should not even be a National Anthem at all for any country. In my opinion.

The National Anthem shoulod be about the (COUNTRY) That it is being sung about. It should not be about 1 PERSON, or the saving of 1 person.

There fore GSTQ should be scrapped as a National Anthem.

In a word, agreed.

[mystiroakey]

Ok I vote for jerusleum as the english national anthem.

But what should we have for the GB and NI anthem.

[Knowsit17]

Has to be Why Can't We Be Friends by War.

Or alternately We Are Family by Sister Sledge.

[Guest]

I remember when God Save the Queen was played in cinemas every night after the last film - up to the mid-1960s. I lived in both Cardiff and London during that period.

People were expected to stand still for the anthem, and many did. But quite a few tried to get out before the anthem started properly. It made no difference whether you were in Cardiff or London!

[mowgli]

God save the Queen isn't about '1 person' it's about the institution of the monarchy without which we would be a 2 bit Republic and even more of an international laughing stock than we are. What people forget is what the Queen does for the UK and what she represents to millions of people in the Commonwealth.

God bless her...meanwhile the rest of the family should get a flaming job and the D of E should write a book about sledging.

[Knowsit17]

I'm sorry, I always took-

God save our gracious Queen
Long live our noble Queen
God save the Queen
Send her victorious
Happy and glorious
Long to reign over us
God save the Queen

as prioritising one person over everybody else. What on earth was I thinking

[majesticimperialman]

What people forget is what the Queen does for the UK and what she represents to millions of people in the Commonwealth.

What does she do actualy?

We ALL work for( HER MAJESTYS GOVERMENT.) Yet Her majesty as nothing to do with the running of parliment. No, she leaves that to who ever party is in charge at the time.

Does she have a say in what that party does that is in goverment? NO.

Does she stick up for people of her own age, so that they get a better deal, a better standard of living? NO.

So i ask you again. WHAT DOES SHE (THE QUEEN DO) when it comes to the running, governing of the united kingdom?

[mowgli]

She makes the tea

[ScarletSpiderman]

Can't agree with you more mystiroakey and morgannwg

Really annoys me, all this petulant cynicism.

How is it cynical to honestly day that you don't class yourself as British?

[ScarletSpiderman]

realities

1. we all have the same opportunities.
2. we are in a union.
3. the welsh want to stay in the union.
3. we do things better together.
4. i didnt hurt or r*** your population.
5. none of my english neighbours did either.
6. Most of us english cant relate to that anthem either! I am no roalylist and i am not religious- I cant think of a more pointless anthem!

the rest is history- and it needs to stay there- concentrate on the day- If you wanna become the welsh alex salmond- fair play- As much as i hate salmond at least he has done something about his ideas!

To be fair Wales have been moving away from being part of the 'union' for some time now, and as the last vote for more law making power shown those who back the gradual shift to independance seem to be more willing to turn out and vote. So it would be a save bet to say that sometime in the next 25-50 years Wales will be an independant nation.

Also ain't Alex Salmond just the Scottish Ghandi?

[mystiroakey]

Unless Wales gain an edge like Scotland it would be pointless to come out of the union. I don't want to get into Scotland's edge because it isn't even enough(north sea oil). But it is something that could at least give them a starting point.. if this union breaks up we will all be worse of. And although England can survive Wales would be in either dire straights ij regards to currency or still be controlled by the bank of England and use sterling..

Stay in the union but make yourself heard is my advice.. we are much stronger together. We are only moving towards a single Europe anyway so it's kinda pointless to split ourselves up..

[ScarletSpiderman]

Unless Wales gain an edge like Scotland it would be pointless to come out of the union. I don't want to get into Scotland's edge because it isn't even enough(north sea oil). But it is something that could at least give them a starting point.. if this union breaks up we will all be worse of. And although England can survive Wales would be in either dire straights ij regards to currency or still be controlled by the bank of England and use sterling..

Stay in the union but make yourself heard is my advice.. we are much stronger together. We are only moving towards a single Europe anyway so it's kinda pointless to split ourselves up..

The thing is if Scotland go alone, do England have enough of an edge to keep hold of Wales and NI? At the moment the energy capital of the UK is in West Wales, which includes one of the only ports that runs all year around (not closing for Xmas). We also have enough water to look after ourselves (well at the moment that ain's an issue for anyone), and don't need to flood places to make resevoirs. We also have enough places to bury our waste, where as English councils apparently do not and, Liverpool i believe, have had to pay to dump their rubbish in Wales. There is the Royal Mint so that would need to be moved, and imagine the pain the rump that would be. I think there are more little things than one big thing. Bujt little htings add up.


Anyhow I have a feeling that even if/when the countries go it alone, there will be favourable deals amongst them compared to deals with other nations.

[Jimpy]

"The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem"

its not the english anthem- its the british anthem....

We sing the british anthem and as an englishman I feel like we need our own when we compete individually. So you have got that confused.

However i dont care who sings it or who doesnt.

Here's where I have to disagree again. How can it be the British anthem if only one out of four British member nations consider it as such? You'll find there's not much different between trying to tell me and others that GSTQ is our anthem whether we like it or not and the imperial campaigns of centuries back to conquer and subject other people.

I will personally never associate myself with GSTQ, one reason being that it's a dirge, possibly the least appealing anthem I've ever heard. Another being that I will under no circumstances give in to swearing allegiance to the queen or any monarch for that matter.

Sorry but if we do live in a democracy then it's my right to deny subjection to a person with a so-called god-given right to call themselves our ruler. In a world where to join the military you must still swear allegiance to an elitist cow rather than the shores you wish to defend and pay a portion of your tax so that her family can afford a holiday to the Caribbean, the lies of imperialism being slain long ago by democracy in western society stand exposed for all to see.

I can't decide if you're mildly xenophobic, or just badly informed - however, your comment (highlighted) is plain wrong.

The Queen does not rule or subjegate citizens of Britain. She reigns - there's a difference. Monarchs havn't 'ruled' since the signing of the Magna Carta, they have however 'reigned' which means they work in concert with elected government to run the country.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Jimpy - do you know what xenophobic means?

[Jimpy]

I just looked it up in the dictionary, it says 'Welsh' next to it.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I just looked it up in the dictionary, it says 'Welsh' next to it.

How long before you change your user name again?

[Comfort]

"The only thing i didnt like, was when people started having a go at the welsh players for not singing GSTQ in the football, sorry, but thats the english anthem, theres no such thing as a British anthem"

its not the english anthem- its the british anthem....

We sing the british anthem and as an englishman I feel like we need our own when we compete individually. So you have got that confused.

However i dont care who sings it or who doesnt.

I have never been raised with GSTQ as my national anthem. In fact, I'd of caught a slap from any of my family if I'd suggest it was or ever has been.

I have one national anthem as far as im concerned. Probably the same for the heavy majority in Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

I'll never recognise GSTQ as my national anthem, or sing it, just as theres no reason for an englishman to sing flower of scotland? Or a scottish guy to sing Irelands call?

Thats the point, if any, i was making i guess.

[anotherworldofpain]

I consider myself English since I live in London for a few years now and is good thing to try to fit in where you live. And I sometimes sing Flower of Scotland, just because I like the tune. Especially on the ending Coda of "to think again" where we get the key change for just half a bar. Very beautiful song I think! But the words are very provocative is my mind.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

No worse than the verse of 'God Save the Queen' that mentions the Scots...

[anotherworldofpain]

Oh! Really? I need to do some research about this. Sorry for my naive!

[gregortree]

AWOP
As an ex Londoner and currently still a stranger in Gloucestershier after 25 years, I am glad you are integrating so well in London. I hope you be wearing the English Rose at Twickenham then this autumn ?
Also maybe you could start an England / Scotland bickering thread. Plenty of bickering material in the respective anthems' lyrics.
[PS: the Scotland tune is a right slow old dirge. So is GSTQ. Much jollier / rousing pipe tunes to choose from and the Scots get FOS ? shame for them really]

[Luckless Pedestrian]

'Flower of Scotland', 'God Save the Queen' and 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau' are all in waltz time. So I say we turn them into a waltz medley and sing them all together while holding hands and swaying from side to side.

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