De Grand Finale match - begorrah! England v Ireland 17 March - Hic!

First topic message reminder :

The stage is set for a humdinger of a match next week today with the final match of the Championship hosting a revitalised England fresh from victory in France against their bogey team, Ireland.



Despite a recent run of victories - home and away - against England, Ireland never seem to have a problem in getting up for this match. The fact that it's in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day will give it that little extra edge.

Lancaster and his troops will want to sign off their first season in charge with a flourish. Kidney's Ireland, having been unlucky in the Welsh match, and kicking themselves after their draw in Paris, will want to put another good score and victory on the board.



Ireland will be without O'Connell again who did a lot of the pre-match talking in the build-up to last year's victory for the men in green. England seem full of confidence and it looks like Lancaster has found the right mix and belief that's going to make this grand finale a belter.

Are English fans feeling confident? Irish ones a bit more doubtful of continuing their English streak?


England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Rob Webber, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

Ireland: 15 R Kearney (Leinster), 14 T Bowe (Ospreys), 13 K Earls (Munster), 12 G D'Arcy (Leinster), 11 A Trimble (Ulster), 10 J Sexton (Leinster), 9 E Reddan (Leinster); 1 C Healy (Leinster), 2 R Best (Ulster, capt), 3 M Ross (Leinster), 4 D O'Callaghan (Munster), 5 D Ryan (Munster), 6 S Ferris (Ulster), 7 S O'Brien (Leinster), 8 J Heaslip (Leinster)
Replacements: 16 S Cronin (Leinster), 17 T Court (Ulster), 18 M McCarthy (Connacht), 19 P O'Mahony (Munster), 20 T O'Leary (Munster), 21 R O'Gara (Munster), 22 F McFadden (Leinster)


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Feckless Rogue wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:its not even shown in pubs, its not played in way more than half the schools, some people dont even know what the game is!!

That's equally true all over Ireland. For all the talk of the growth in rugby in Ireland, it grew from a tiny base and is still a minority sport, just like in England. 90% of my friends don't watch it. It's all soccer in my town. And it's all Gaelic football in the rural area's around the town.

England has more people, more clubs, more players, so by the logic of my (admittedly limited) mind, England should be able to produce more elite players to fill more elite teams. Having 12 teams to Ireland's 4 should not mean their talent is spread to thin, because going by weight of numbers and the law of averages, they should be able to fill 12 teams with playing panels of comparable talent to Ireland's 4.

That does all sound rather logical. I do wonder sometimes if there's some law of proportionality at work (and I'm not a prof of maths so don't ask me) that's linked to the national test team requirements. SA, Aus and NZ support 5 Super teams of varying quality. Whilst I know that SA are pushing for the Southern Kings, you get the sense that 5 is about the max that will work to accommodate the numbers to feed into the test squad, surrounded by a larger number of good professionals. It doesn't matter how players England have, they still only have one test team, and that's what drives requirements, numbers of elites, etc.

bluesman I'm from Drogheda in the northeast. My dad's from Clare though, so I know Ennis and Kilrush. Ennis is alright. Don't really like Limerick. Galway is my favourite place in Ireland. How did a Welsh person end up in Kilrush of all places?

Pot Hale, it does seem that 4/5 is a good number of elite teams to have. But even when New Zealand had 4 and Ireland had 4, the players New Zealand produced were generally far better. So the rugby culture of a nation is more important than numbers.

But here's an example from hurling in Ireland. Kilkenny are just the best at hurling. Nothing to do with population. Everything to with love for the sport, and one brilliant generation passing their skills and knowlege to the next. It's in their blood. They play from the time they can walk. And they're bleedin brilliant at it.

Dublin were absolutely not even on the hurling radar not long ago. But they did have population + money. So they put massive funding into the game in a drive to revive Dublin hurling and make them a force. They're not Champions yet or anything. But they have succeeded in manufacturing a new competitive hurling power out of nothing. So numbers + cash can be made to count in a relatively short space of time if they're used right. And England have more numbers and cash than the rest. The culture to match New Zealand can't be invented over night or bought for any price, but will have to be built and fostered over a longer time frame.

I know London was initially raised purely for a population size comparison, but I do think it's quite interesting comparing London based rugby to that in the rest of England.

I believe something like 25-30% of London's population is meant to be immigrant. There's supposedly 400,000 odd French people here for instance, apparently making it the 5th biggest French city.

I'm not sure what the SANZAR population of London is, but in my experience they play a significant (nonproportional) part in the local club scene. I've been in teams where up to a third were from the SH.

I'd imagine that is quite different to clubs outside London's catchment area?



I'd be interested to see a regional breakdown of English school rugby. Outside of independent schools (7%) my guess is that it would be concentrated in the West Country and East Midlands?

Feckless
Work mate, took me around a bit, hit moneypoint, the power station up there for a few months, beautifull part of the world, a bit rough at times but just my cup of tea. Actually played for Kilrush RFC for a while, got bored of the fighting though.

I LOVE limebrick, love Thomond on a friday and sat night, great night out, had nothing but a warm welcome from most. I would say all but I had a few run ins with local 'mafia' as they liked to call themselves, silly thing, ended up at a house party after a Scarlets game, one guy heard me speak and must have assumed I was a scarlet, kicked right off, after his ego and face were bruised slightly he went to get the family, that was a hairy night in the limebrick burbs!

Galway I love too, there is literally nothing like that lovely sea breeze blowing in on a beautifully moist friday night under the floods and watching the brand of rugby Connacht and all visiting teams try to play!

The only thing I dislike about Galway is all the yanks, it's like thats the only part of Ireland outside of Dublin they see!

I went to private school in the West Country, plenty of State schools play rugby there

Feckless Rogue wrote:bluesman I'm from Drogheda in the northeast. My dad's from Clare though, so I know Ennis and Kilrush. Ennis is alright. Don't really like Limerick. Galway is my favourite place in Ireland. How did a Welsh person end up in Kilrush of all places?

Your dad must a be superb human being then

Gibson wrote:A resurgent New England will thrash Ireland. Ireland have not met a decent side yet - including the overrated and lucky Welsh. France to end that luck with 6 changes to their XV. Its what they do best. Thrive on adversity and beat all the odds. Check the RWC.

This gig aint over yet folks.

Mary and Joseph you worry me at times Gibbo

thebluesmancometh wrote:Think your out there Fly, London is such a cosmopolitan city I'd imagine a large chunk of that population are non nationals of some sort. Then of the rest a lot will live in inner city suburbs where football dominates over anything else, not to mention all the London Football clubs. Then of those left over quite a lot are young proffesionals from all over the UK, not a lot of those would be rugby fans.

Spending a bit of time around London Welsh recently and the area of Richmond it's quite clear rugby isn't a big priority in London.

You know what point they are trying to make.

oddly enough richmond and the many of the other half posh west london suburbs would be the parts of london where there are more rugby fans/players.

If we go into south,north and east london it is very much non exisitant. I went to private school(yes you wouldnt know it lol- yep waste of money) however even I didnt even play rugby at school!

There are a few other private/grammer/catholic schools in my area that have produced top players- whitgift cipriani, john fisher- sacky, but again the surrey part of london would possibly be the largest area that plays rugby- however even then it could seem non existant.

I do alot of work in the schools all over london and people may be surprised when i tell you that in many of them white kids are the minority- its quite normal to see year pictures with one or two white kids only.. These schools push on football and in many cases spend alot of money on astro pitches which even in some cases never get used due to the population being full of kids with asian extraction- where in all fiarness they should be speding on cricket.

haha the english have turned Gibbo Billy

MI5 must have got to him in the Dam after a few afternoon pints on Sunday.

Its a scary thought dave but i have never seen Gibbo want Ireland to lose

Gibbo is hedging his bets billy, its typical Irish ploy to combat the fear of failure and pressure to succeed... thats why I've be tipping England.. it's win win then ..... you should try it mate.....

.... here's another classic one.......

To be honest I don't care who wins, as long as our lads give a good account of themselves...... .....

Sure its all a bit of auld craic anyway ...... :

Myster

That was the point I was trying to make, late at night and way too tired!

Just a small point, If England lose to Ireland then they will have a 100% away and home record!

When was the last time the tourny saw that?

Just hope Ireland get equal treatment from the ref and the quality of refereeing improves. Ireland have conceded the most penalties in the comp and it is killing us.

A good account in my book is a win.

A win and a good win is doable and it's what I want. I usually hate St. Patrick's Plastic Irish Day... I'm hopng the team change my mind this year.

They are growing in malevolence again. Not so much thinking of tactics (that have been confusing them for a few seasons now) and more on intent.

England too strong in defence. Ireland too weak in midfield

Pretty even elsewhere

England by 10.

I don't see even. I see Ireland being a better side. Proving it will be the hard bit of course.

But I do see them proving England aren't too strong in defence. Whether proving that point turns out to be enough or not will be down to what England do in attack.

eirebilly wrote:

Gibson wrote:A resurgent New England will thrash Ireland. Ireland have not met a decent side yet - including the overrated and lucky Welsh. France to end that luck with 6 changes to their XV. Its what they do best. Thrive on adversity and beat all the odds. Check the RWC.

This gig aint over yet folks.

Mary and Joseph you worry me at times Gibbo

haha I usually love Gibbo's dead-of-night posts but this one has actually got me worried....... Ireland by 124-0 I reckon

leinsterbaby wrote:Just hope Ireland get equal treatment from the ref and the quality of refereeing improves. Ireland have conceded the most penalties in the comp and it is killing us.

I really hope so. Your typical cheating is what usually beats us. Now the refs are playing fair we might have a chance

More seriously, our decipline seems to have been slipping again. Not as bad as previous but it could go that way. We do seem to be abit better at responding to the refs and not giving away too many penalties for the same thing.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0313/1224313204106.html

saturday's team courtesy of thornley.

pretty poor article i must say. wales are 4-0 and have moved forward without doubt. They beat us again minus 5/6 front line players in our own back yard and beat a resurgent young english team in their back yard under serious pressure. we have been good in patches but saturday is a season definer. If we get beaten we will finish with a 2-1-2 record. progress hm not for me gents.

france have been poor and look largely disjointed but st andre has had them for 4 games. we have had kidney for 3+ years and have had more than a few games where we have looked disjointed

i'll go with Ireland by 7.

Ireland seem to always start aggressively then fade before lifting in the final quarter. England start slowly pick up in the middle and then fade.

I can't see us scoring enough in the middle to beat Ireland especially if they get an early score, we've yet to concede early to any team in this comp and I think we're too young a team to come back from that if Ireland do.

What a poor article, the argument for the BP system is so one eyed it's crazy!!

The finale is not just your teams last game, it is the game of most importance to the tournies result, therefore if Wales win it will have been the grande finale, if Wales lose it will probably still have been the grande finale, if Wales lose by a cricket score then the England Ireland game stands a chance at something!

If Wales win it's game over, tourny won, telly goes off and dancing in the streets start!

I think bonus points would make it more interesting.

How many 6 nations games have you watched that have petered out after a decent first half. losing team has nothing to play for attacking team has nothing to play for.

If there were bonus points i have no doubt wales would have nabbed one v italy if they really could have been bothered.

I disagree dave, I think Italys gameplan was to come and spoil, imagine if they were rewarded with the odd BP for spoiling, why would you want to encourage that?

Also if a team after round 4 has a 3/4 point advantage, whats to stop them going into the last game negative in an attempt to secure the tourny by only needing the one point.

I disagree that at this level you need motivation to keep performing, if you don't have it in you to compete with your all for the full 80 despite the score you shouldn't be playing international rugby!

Ok, bit of a 3-way WUM there.

Id love to see us win and give me my now yearly birthday present. Dont be silly. Once the game kicks off Im in like Flynn and will, as always, shout like an eejit for my Country. I just think we are getting far too smug in our mediocrity and could well be caught out badly on Sat.

The fact is, had we not completely thrown it away v Wales and France, WE could be going for the SLAM now. This side lacks a clear-cut gameplan and the belief to close a game out against the big boys. England, I feel, will run the legs off us and expose it. 4 games in a row will either make or break us. England always get us up for it, no matter what. So it will be close. I hope.

Never thought Id say this, but I want ROG to start at 10 and Sexton at 12 in this one. We look far more potent with the 2 of them on the field. Use Mcfadden early in the 2nd half. He is gagging for it and we will need his dynamism early. Not in the last 10 mins.

Bench Heaslip, lose Darcy from the 22(wont happen) and keep POM at 7. Really impressed with him. Not a 7 yet, but far better than SOB there. He was Wally-like last Sat. Loves to get down and durty. So bench Heaslip and put SOB at 8. Do all that Deccie and we have a team to really go at England from the start.

Ferris must be the best backrower in the NH and well up with any in the SH. Just consistently amazing. As was Besty in the Captains role. Healy is growing into a beast in the scrum and a great ball-carrier in the loose. Needs a smack for giving away too many pens though. This should be DOC's last stand. Like Darcy, he's past it.

Happy that Munster have produced POM and Ryan. Quality players, who proved themselves with consumate ease at international level. No time for provincial bias, I want them to become regulars and escalate the evolution of the 22. We are getting younger by the week. Thats all I wanted from this gig. That and a great 80 min performance. No negativity when ahead - as in the Wales and France games. Go for it Deccie.

Believe.

P.S.
I still contend that a more liberated France will halt Wales and that Italy will beat Scotland in Rome.

thrown it away v Wales and France!

WOW thats harsh, it could be argued that both teams put you under too much pressure to cope, and certainly in Wales case thats part of their gameplan, especially late on.

Nah we just played rubbish - no game plan.

thebluesmancometh wrote:What a poor article, the argument for the BP system is so one eyed it's crazy!!

The finale is not just your teams last game, it is the game of most importance to the tournies result, therefore if Wales win it will have been the grande finale, if Wales lose it will probably still have been the grande finale, if Wales lose by a cricket score then the England Ireland game stands a chance at something!

If Wales win it's game over, tourny won, telly goes off and dancing in the streets start!

You won't watch in on the final game? Just to even gloat at two chancer sides fighting for some crusts dropped off the Welsh banquet table?

Oh bluesman...I think you'll keep a little eye in there to see how the enemy to your right do against the enemy to your left.

But yes, of course the main battle happens in Wales. The neutrals around the world will be glued to that one and rightly so.

thebluesmancometh wrote:thrown it away v Wales and France!

WOW thats harsh, it could be argued that both teams put you under too much pressure to cope, and certainly in Wales case thats part of their gameplan, especially late on.

Nah Blue, we blew it against ye lot on the day. Loss of cool and initiative in the last 10 mins, albeit against a better side - in all fairness. V France, we got it wrong when 11 points up. Should have gone for a DG and/or pen to finish em off. We had a few clear chances to do it. Dems de margins at this level and Kidney should know that by now.

I am really still quite upset that Kidney said that this Ireland side were still in a learning process in regards to closing out games in the prematch interview. How much more time to they need Deccie?

Ah come on now billy sure the boys were missing paulie and brian ..... we're developing a squad and the lads are still learning .....

I'm distraught to have to think this with my brain and feel it in my hear but Ireland are going to beat us on Saturday lads.

There's just no way that we can beat them. They will do a 6N 2011 on us and once again leave us with a bad taste in the mouth in the last game of the tournament.

Being St Patrick's Day will only add to their always rabid motivation to beat us come what may.

POC will probably be dredged up from his hospital bed to address the irish in the shed.

O'Brien of course has accelerated his rehab to be back in time.

Him and Ferris will do their usual choke tackle routine and somone other than POC will shout "its a maul, its a maul, its a maul!" rather than "its an illegal neck/head high tackle!"

ROG will come on to close it all down at the end. Kicking relentlessly for the corners, peppering us remorsely with gary owens and then if needed firing over droppies.

Our young lads have shown a lot of heart so far and have done well. I only hope that we can avoid a thrashing and keep putting pride in the jumper.

Good luck England you will need it!

roddersm wrote:Ah come on now billy sure the boys were missing paulie and brian ..... we're developing a squad and the lads are still learning .....

He is Irelands national coach, has been in the job a few years now and he still says that Ireland are still learning how to close a match out. Sorry but i thought that comment was feican stoopid.

Rant over

In essence, Thornley really is a total gobshoite. Full of his own BS and afraid to upset Deccie. He's getting worse. 6-N BP's. WHAT!?

Triangulation wrote:I'm distraught to have to think this with my brain and feel it in my head but Ireland are going to beat us on Saturday lads.

Good luck England you will need it!

How successful have you been so far, Tri?
Four 'not a hope in hell' games on and your positive approach of using negative vibes has been almost perfect tactics. Three wins, one loss. Good going so far. I salute you.

SecretFly wrote:

Triangulation wrote:I'm distraught to have to think this with my brain and feel it in my head but Ireland are going to beat us on Saturday lads.

Good luck England you will need it!

How successful have you been so far, Tri?
Four 'not a hope in hell' games on and your positive approach of using negative vibes has been almost perfect tactics. Three wins, one loss. Good going so far. I salute you.

We're on a journey. It's a learning process. We're only at the start.

Tri, England v Ireland wouldn't be the same without you sir ... .........

Don't you be playing the old underdog card now though, we all know Ireland are up against it here .....

eirebilly wrote:I am really still quite upset that Kidney said that this Ireland side were still in a learning process in regards to closing out games in the prematch interview. How much more time to they need Deccie?

so what happened in paris then?

After seeing the team part of me wants England to win now so they sack Kidney POM out and SOB in? He shown he deserves a chance to play he did better than SOB has done in the previous games

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am really still quite upset that Kidney said that this Ireland side were still in a learning process in regards to closing out games in the prematch interview. How much more time to they need Deccie?

so what happened in paris then?

I think the point might be that billy acknowledges the truth of Kidney's comments but he doesn't think a few years into his reign that he should be still having to say it?

Has the team been announced?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am really still quite upset that Kidney said that this Ireland side were still in a learning process in regards to closing out games in the prematch interview. How much more time to they need Deccie?

so what happened in paris then?

I think the point might be that billy acknowledges the truth of Kidney's comments but he doesn't think a few years into his reign that he should be still having to say it?

I was about to say the same thing until i saw your post Fly

Sin, comments like that hardly instill confidence now do they?

yes gerry announced it in his colulmn in the times today rodders

one change sob to replace pom. darcy keeps his place.

Wow one change eh?! Kidneys becoming a bit of a maverick these days!

Sack Kidney after the 6-N? Yeah roysh. Nothing will stop him seeing out his present contract till 2013. Then, we will see if the IRFU have de balls to get someone of the right calibre in, to take this squad forward.

If they really want to take this team up to where it belongs, they should be putting feelers out and start instigating it - now. Not in 2013. It is how all top,well-run businesses - operate. I also believe we need change at IRFU Board level to really get the job done. They have not really given Kidney all the support he needed. Its a shambles.

dublin_dave wrote:yes gerry announced it in his colulmn in the times today rodders

one change sob to replace pom. darcy keeps his place.

No, Gerry is going to be wrong. My ears are twitching...

No,the team has been announced.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0313/1224313236291.html

Deccie, predictable?

Why does POM have to make way?

Surely Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 was the way to go? Hard on Heaslip but i think that POM would be a better optinon at 7 and SOB is the better option at 8...

eirebilly wrote:

Why does POM have to make way?

Surely Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 was the way to go? Hard on Heaslip but i think that POM would be a better optinon at 7 and SOB is the better option at 8...

+1
A Munster and Leinster fan completely in tune. What next?

Glad to see SOB back but I agree theres a strong argument to retain POM in place of heaslip.

What the flip is up with Heaslip anyways? Bar a spell around March, April last season when he was on fire, he's been out of sorts for a long time.

Have injuries taken their toll? Is he another Leamy? Is he carrying an injury?