De Grand Finale match - begorrah! England v Ireland 17 March - Hic!

First topic message reminder :

The stage is set for a humdinger of a match next week today with the final match of the Championship hosting a revitalised England fresh from victory in France against their bogey team, Ireland.



Despite a recent run of victories - home and away - against England, Ireland never seem to have a problem in getting up for this match. The fact that it's in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day will give it that little extra edge.

Lancaster and his troops will want to sign off their first season in charge with a flourish. Kidney's Ireland, having been unlucky in the Welsh match, and kicking themselves after their draw in Paris, will want to put another good score and victory on the board.



Ireland will be without O'Connell again who did a lot of the pre-match talking in the build-up to last year's victory for the men in green. England seem full of confidence and it looks like Lancaster has found the right mix and belief that's going to make this grand finale a belter.

Are English fans feeling confident? Irish ones a bit more doubtful of continuing their English streak?


England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Rob Webber, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

Ireland: 15 R Kearney (Leinster), 14 T Bowe (Ospreys), 13 K Earls (Munster), 12 G D'Arcy (Leinster), 11 A Trimble (Ulster), 10 J Sexton (Leinster), 9 E Reddan (Leinster); 1 C Healy (Leinster), 2 R Best (Ulster, capt), 3 M Ross (Leinster), 4 D O'Callaghan (Munster), 5 D Ryan (Munster), 6 S Ferris (Ulster), 7 S O'Brien (Leinster), 8 J Heaslip (Leinster)
Replacements: 16 S Cronin (Leinster), 17 T Court (Ulster), 18 M McCarthy (Connacht), 19 P O'Mahony (Munster), 20 T O'Leary (Munster), 21 R O'Gara (Munster), 22 F McFadden (Leinster)


[strike]

Heaslip is a laid back dude. He's also realized he's undroppable. Not a good combination. He needs to be dropped. Told to train with the Wolfhounds. Told to come back when he wants to be the best 8 in Europe again.

not sure rodders. defensively he is still a good player but his attacking game has all but disappeared. he gets knocked back and sideways in the tackle on a regular basis. has he lost some bulk and power, not sure really.

by god we need darcy to roll back the years on Saturday. If Barrit and Tuilagi are running off a strong English platform they will make major headway. earls has been very good in defence last few games, we need another similar peformance

Gibson wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Why does POM have to make way?

Surely Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 was the way to go? Hard on Heaslip but i think that POM would be a better optinon at 7 and SOB is the better option at 8...

+1
A Munster and Leinster fan completely in tune. What next?

Scaring the bejaysus out of me as well

Seriously though, i cant understand this decision. D'Arcy should not be starting (ok he hasnt played that badly in reality). I honestly would have drafted Paddy in ahead of him and what more can POM do to prove that he is the best option at 7 with SOB at 8?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Heaslip is a laid back dude. He's also realized he's undroppable. Not a good combination. He needs to be dropped. Told to train with the Wolfhounds. Told to come back when he wants to be the best 8 in Europe again.

He is spending too much time hobnobbing, tweeting, believing his own hype and opening restaurants. He should be dropped. He hasn't been terrible but he has been well below his best.

So O'Mahony comes in, instantly improves the backrow, and is dropped for his troubles.



Live dangerously. 18 players started in this Six Nations. The three that have come on have only been due to injuries.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I disagree dave, I think Italys gameplan was to come and spoil, imagine if they were rewarded with the odd BP for spoiling, why would you want to encourage that?

Eh, is this not a valid tactic now?!

Yeah, agree on Heaslip. Someone said he should be made captain on here. I really think he needs to grow up and stop tweeting his own hype 1st. He is more soccer than rugby in that respect. Immature. Same thing happened Fitzy and it took him a while to wake up and focus more on his game. Feicin Ladyboys.

BOD needs to have a quiet word of advice. No better man.

Notch wrote:So O'Mahony comes in, instantly improves the backrow, and is dropped for his troubles.



Live dangerously. 18 players started in this Six Nations. The three that have come on have only been due to injuries.

Thats how Kidney builds a team.

You do have to laugh though dont you. Surely even Deccie could see that POM performed very well?

Waiting for another awe inspiring pre match interview from him now

But POM did well and the backrow looked better balanced to me. Why drop him? What's Kidneys logic? Very reminiscent of the EOS era. Why are Irish coaches so afraid of even small changes? It's not as if he doesn't want to upset a world beating first 15 is it?

It makes me chuckle how little faith we have in our coaches, Deccie was the messiah at Munster now he is a poor selector?

I think continuity is such a big issue at this level, coaches want to play their players back into form.

Why do you think POM was good? He was hungry, itching for the opportunity, if he takes Heaslips spot on one performance how hard will he work to keep it, compared to how hard he'll work to gain it!

I think it's long game, and from Deccies POV, he can't win anything, so why not let Heaslip play himself back into form.

On the other hand however it could be a chance to test some new blood against a rejuvinated England side.

It depends how much pressure he feels to get the result, Gatland did similar last year and year before but when he resigned a contract extension it took the pressure off and he gave more youth a chance.

Maybe more faith should be had in Deccie?

Its mind boggling Rogue, i am at a loss for words. I truely am.

Just saw team and thought I'd pop on to see the reaction. I must say I was not in anyway surprised and supposes I can see why but I don't agree with it. I do hope that we see POM on for Heaslip but as SOB is back from injury he'll get shipped off on 50 mins.

One concern is the nest Test match for us after this is the All Blacks in NZ and I don't think we have progressed much this 6 nations.

I dont think we've progressed much in 3 years...

New players blooded by inury and default. But the same old shoite on the field.

I'm always optimistic when it comes to Ireland and Ulster but while I see ulster progressing in leaps and bounds I thought I'd seen Ireland go up a level but starting to doubt it. Saying that have a few quid on a win in NZ so all my optimism hasn't fully drained!

I'm not sure about progression, I like to put it into context in general.

When Deccie took over how close had kidney come to a GS or world cup?

How reliant on POC and BOD were Ireland before Deccie took over?

What is the quality of the squad now and what was it before Deccie took over?

I'd argue the fact you have 3 top back rowers and a very talented one who can't quite make the team shows progression. I'd argue that ROG, POC and BOD are generally just experienced players in this Ireland team where they were match winners, and if not there were match losers in the team of 3 years ago.

I also think althouhg the WC was dissapointing from an Irish POV, it was better than the last, and you have a GS to show under Deccie.

Positives boys, it's easy when it's not your team.

EOS not kidney... you know!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe more faith should be had in Deccie?

Away teh feic! If that man gets any more faith shown in him he'll need his own religon!

Totally agree Notch, if only Ireland could bring in half a dozen saffers and kiwis!......

Notch

Your right it is a valid tactic, but it should not be encouraged with reward!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not sure about progression, I like to put it into context in general.

When Deccie took over how close had kidney come to a GS or world cup?

How reliant on POC and BOD were Ireland before Deccie took over?

What is the quality of the squad now and what was it before Deccie took over?

I'd argue the fact you have 3 top back rowers and a very talented one who can't quite make the team shows progression. I'd argue that ROG, POC and BOD are generally just experienced players in this Ireland team where they were match winners, and if not there were match losers in the team of 3 years ago.

I also think althouhg the WC was dissapointing from an Irish POV, it was better than the last, and you have a GS to show under Deccie.

Positives boys, it's easy when it's not your team.

The problem we have is that all Kidneys accomplishments for Ireland came in his first year,we won the Grand Slam and ended the year unbeaten which was a great achievement.

However since then we have seen our squad and team improve in quality year on year yet the team itself has stagnated terribly.Excluding 2009 we have produced only 2 performances of genuine class against quality opposition under Kidney,England in last years 6N and Australia in the WC.The fact that we can produce these kinds of performances shows our players have the quality needed but they are so few and far between it's incredibly frustrating.

We then see him pick players like D'Arcy and DoC and before that ToL and Luke Fitz week in week out despite there being players outperforming them consistently.I am not really worried about the national teams performances at the moment because I believe with the quality of players we have that when Kidney leaves if we get a quality coach we'll be a major force.

Maddog wrote:I'm always optimistic when it comes to Ireland and Ulster but while I see ulster progressing in leaps and bounds I thought I'd seen Ireland go up a level but starting to doubt it. Saying that have a few quid on a win in NZ so all my optimism hasn't fully drained!

Keep the faith. Ireland will win the first test. It's going to happen.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Notch

Your right it is a valid tactic, but it should not be encouraged with reward!

Why not? It's up to opponents to deal with it. The BP system rewards all styles of rugby.

I agree with your points mate, and it's nice to debate with someone who posts such concise, accurate and informed answers.

I actually give Deccie a lot of credit for that Ausie performance, it was a tactical victory I think, as was the first half against France last week.

The English performance I felt was just pure passion and wanting to prove a point. I have to take your point about the first year success, and not repeating it since, and I think that speaks about Deccies ability to keep this Ireland team at the top of the tree, but do you really think you have the players and balance around the park to be winning things regularly?

Wow, Wales must be an extremely lucky country according to some Irish posters - If we beat France we'll have won more grandslams in the last 7 years than Ireland have in 50.

Thats alot of lucky charms

thebluesmancometh wrote:I agree with your points mate, and it's nice to debate with someone who posts such concise, accurate and informed answers.

I actually give Deccie a lot of credit for that Ausie performance, it was a tactical victory I think, as was the first half against France last week.

The English performance I felt was just pure passion and wanting to prove a point. I have to take your point about the first year success, and not repeating it since, and I think that speaks about Deccies ability to keep this Ireland team at the top of the tree, but do you really think you have the players and balance around the park to be winning things regularly?

Yeah I definitely do,we have players who prove their quality week in,week out in the HC and Rabo.While that is a lower standard than international level it's not by much.

The problem is that these players go from such highs at the provinces to also rans at international level,if we were challenging but not winning then I could see the argument that the step up in class is too great.However when our players go from some of the best in European club competition to mid table mediocrity at international level the drop in our standards is too great for me to accept that as the reason.

Again hard to argue mate, Munster and Leinster have dominated europe in recent years, but that doesn't always translate into international success.

I'm not sure Kidneys the entire problem, and if he goes who takes over?

munkian wrote:Wow, Wales must be an extremely lucky country according to some Irish posters - If we beat France we'll have won more grandslams in the last 7 years than Ireland have in 50.

Thats alot of lucky charms

What has this got to do with anything in this thread?

Rory

Just ignore it mate

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

munkian wrote:Wow, Wales must be an extremely lucky country according to some Irish posters - If we beat France we'll have won more grandslams in the last 7 years than Ireland have in 50.

Thats alot of lucky charms

What has this got to do with anything in this thread?

This

Gibson wrote:

A resurgent New England will thrash Ireland. Ireland have not met a decent side yet - including the overrated and lucky Welsh

How does Gibson, translate to "some Irish posters"?

Rather than hijack the thread could you not have responded directly to Gibsons comments rather than dredge up Ireland GS record v Wales?

I must say we get more love from our Irish mates than from our Welsh cousins. Maybe it goes back the '2N' 1972 episode when England were given a standing ovation in Dublin just for showing up.

How have I hijacked the thread ?

munkian wrote:How have I hijacked the thread ?

Because this thread is about England v Ireland.

Seems like another typical welsh fan trying to gloat. There are plenty of other threads you can do it, and where other welsh fans are doing it right now, just leave this one to the irish and english fans eh?

So why are people like Rory bringing up Ireland v Wales and saying Ireland 'threw the game away' then ?

Ahh, Gibson and Rory, thats two, also known as 'some'

Anyway, you would have thought being massive underachievers at the International game would have given you a thicker skin - chill out.

roddersm wrote:Tri, England v Ireland wouldn't be the same without you sir ... .........

Don't you be playing the old underdog card now though, we all know Ireland are up against it here .....

Very kind of you to say so. Likewise. But enough of the pleasantries. Let's focus on just how much of a schellacking your team is going to dish out to our collection of individuals.

We haven't a hope.

You haven't even deemed it necessary to roll out your not-so-secret-weapon.....you know who i mean don't you.........

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Seems like another typical welsh fan trying to gloat.

OK back up the truck Rory! Lets not make sweeping statements about our Welsh chums! ... a few bad apples and all that ....

munkian wrote:So why are people like Rory bringing up Ireland v Wales and saying Ireland 'threw the game away' then ?

Ahh, Gibson and Rory, thats two, also known as 'some'

Anyway, you would have thought being massive underachievers at the International game would have given you a thicker skin - chill out.

What are you on about? I said we played rubbish in the first game and we did. How am I turning that into an Ireland v Wales thing?

Once again, typical welsh fan trying to gloat and stir the pot. Go do it somewhere else.

Triangulation wrote:
You haven't even deemed it necessary to roll out your not-so-secret-weapon.....you know who i mean don't you.........

Tony Buckey?

Rodders, to be fair over the entire 6 nations it has been typical of most welsh posters.

You've been hanging out on the wrong threads Rory mate .... ... chillax, be happy for our Welsh cousins, our time will come again...

We've enough problems coming up on saturday

munkian makes a fair point.

they have good years and bad years but when they are good they typically win the Grand Slam with a dollop of style and panache. heading for 3rd in 8 years is good shooting got to doff my cap to them

some of them are right gloating cocky toe rags though : ))))))) dont like losing to the welsh especially 3 times in a row

Us irish tend to gloat and look down our noses at france,wales,england based on no real achievement at international level to speak of in recent times (see Gerry Thornleys recent article)

roddersm wrote:

Triangulation wrote:
You haven't even deemed it necessary to roll out your not-so-secret-weapon.....you know who i mean don't you.........

Tony Buckey?

Neven Spence!!!

Eng 20 Ire 20 at 79 minutes, with the Irish to produce a completely faultless and legal six minutes and forty phases of play to set up ROG for the drop.

Final score Eng 20 Ire 23.

Cue the Lancaster 'backlash'!

That's Nevin Spents to you...

Triangulation wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Triangulation wrote:
You haven't even deemed it necessary to roll out your not-so-secret-weapon.....you know who i mean don't you.........

Tony Buckey?

Neven Spence!!!

Hmm.. seems someone can spot talent

over the last 8 years or so have Ireland fans been generally confident of beating England? Is it any different this year?

Don't fall for it Rory, Tri is still smarting from when young Nevin took Tuilagi to school at ravers..... he doesn't realise Spence is studying for his GCSE's this weekend .....

damngoodOvalball wrote:over the last 8 years or so have Ireland fans been generally confident of beating England? Is it any different this year?

No I've never been that confident at Twickenham. Last year I thought we'd lose. I think we are playing much better than last year, but still not great.

I see this as winnable but I just don't know what sort of performance we'll see from us. Nothing we've produced so far will be good enough I think.

I'm more confident with Reddan starting but it will be a close one. England are favourites for sure.

What ever happended to Nevin Spense ? He was an Ulster player wasn't he ?