De Grand Finale match - begorrah! England v Ireland 17 March - Hic!

First topic message reminder :

The stage is set for a humdinger of a match next week today with the final match of the Championship hosting a revitalised England fresh from victory in France against their bogey team, Ireland.



Despite a recent run of victories - home and away - against England, Ireland never seem to have a problem in getting up for this match. The fact that it's in Twickenham on St Patrick's Day will give it that little extra edge.

Lancaster and his troops will want to sign off their first season in charge with a flourish. Kidney's Ireland, having been unlucky in the Welsh match, and kicking themselves after their draw in Paris, will want to put another good score and victory on the board.



Ireland will be without O'Connell again who did a lot of the pre-match talking in the build-up to last year's victory for the men in green. England seem full of confidence and it looks like Lancaster has found the right mix and belief that's going to make this grand finale a belter.

Are English fans feeling confident? Irish ones a bit more doubtful of continuing their English streak?


England: 15 Ben Foden, 14 Chris Ashton, 13 Manusamoa Tuilagi, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 David Strettle, 10 Owen Farrell, 9 Lee Dickson, 8 Ben Morgan, 7 Chris Robshaw (capt), 6 Tom Croft, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley, 1 Alex Corbisiero.
Replacements: 16 Rob Webber, 17 Matt Stevens, 18 Tom Palmer, 19 Phil Dowson, 20 Ben Youngs, 21 Charlie Hodgson, 22 Mike Brown.

Ireland: 15 R Kearney (Leinster), 14 T Bowe (Ospreys), 13 K Earls (Munster), 12 G D'Arcy (Leinster), 11 A Trimble (Ulster), 10 J Sexton (Leinster), 9 E Reddan (Leinster); 1 C Healy (Leinster), 2 R Best (Ulster, capt), 3 M Ross (Leinster), 4 D O'Callaghan (Munster), 5 D Ryan (Munster), 6 S Ferris (Ulster), 7 S O'Brien (Leinster), 8 J Heaslip (Leinster)
Replacements: 16 S Cronin (Leinster), 17 T Court (Ulster), 18 M McCarthy (Connacht), 19 P O'Mahony (Munster), 20 T O'Leary (Munster), 21 R O'Gara (Munster), 22 F McFadden (Leinster)


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I can see both Earl's and Tuilagi getting change out of each other when attacking. Linebreaks making it a more open game. If Tuilagi could then be persuaded to offload the ball when tackled - who knows?

Adam wrote:So there you are....an essay later and my conclusion is: it’s pretty even!!

Yeah I think England have the edge.

The Irish scrum is going well but away from home sometimes things don't go in your favour in that area. The lineout has been a bit shaky in the last few weeks, maybe due to Gert Smal not being involved.

The breakdown is an area were Ireland can really dominate an we've been very effective at forcing the maul and turningover the opposition. In recent year England have been very vulnerable at the contact/ruck areas whereas its a real strength in Ireland.

I am concerned about our lack of carriers. Not sure if SOB will be fit but the last time we were at twickenham without him or Wallace we were smashed. Tuilagi could really hurt us in midfield too and D'arcy and Earls need to be on top form. Our backplay was good against Scotland and we nee to be positive with the ball and vary our tactics.

I can see this going both ways but for me England start as solid favourites and will relish getting revenge for last season. This will take a huge performance for Ireland to come away with the win. This is our 4th game in successive weeks too and that could have an impact late on.

I think England by 10 points in a really intense and physical game.

I see England have gone to 4th in the IRB rankings. Not bad from a callow side with a novice coach.

But to next week. I suspect England picked up two potentially serious injuries against France. 1. Botha had a shoulder problem. 2. Farrell got a shoulder knock in virtually the last tackle of the match.

Both may not start next week. Hope I'm wrong.

One thing is for sure this England team won't get caught napping by Ireland again.

roddersm wrote:

Adam wrote:So there you are....an essay later and my conclusion is: it’s pretty even!!

Yeah I think England have the edge.

The Irish scrum is going well but away from home sometimes things don't go in your favour in that area. The lineout has been a bit shaky in the last few weeks, maybe due to Gert Smal not being involved.

The breakdown is an area were Ireland can really dominate an we've been very effective at forcing the maul and turningover the opposition. In recent year England have been very vulnerable at the contact/ruck areas whereas its a real strength in Ireland.

I am concerned about our lack of carriers. Not sure if SOB will be fit but the last time we were at twickenham without him or Wallace we were smashed. Tuilagi could really hurt us in midfield too and D'arcy and Earls need to be on top form. Our backplay was good against Scotland and we nee to be positive with the ball and vary our tactics.

I can see this going both ways but for me England start as solid favourites and will relish getting revenge for last season. This will take a huge performance for Ireland to come away with the win. This is our 4th game in successive weeks too and that could have an impact late on.

I think England by 10 points in a really intense and physical game.

Is that the old 'do my team down as we like being underdogs' thing there? There's no way we're 10 points better, even at home. Bookies apparantly have England by 3 which may be right for us at home (but still not convinced). If it's genuine then you need to be more positive. Really unlucky loss to Wales (certainly more unlucky than ours), we just managed a lucky win over France, you've beaten both Scotland and Italy better than us. AND you've only lost once in the last 8 or 9 years in 6 nations.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Is that the old 'do my team down as we like being underdogs' thing there? There's no way we're 10 points better, even at home. Bookies apparantly have England by 3 which may be right for us at home (but still not convinced). If it's genuine then you need to be more positive. Really unlucky loss to Wales (certainly more unlucky than ours), we just managed a lucky win over France, you've beaten both Scotland and Italy better than us. AND you've only lost once in the last 8 or 9 years in 6 nations.

Off course not.....

We might have been 'unlucky' to some extent against Wales but we were thoroughly dominated in most aspects of the game whereas England weren't.

Haven't seen France v England yet so can't comment but clearly England had the belief to put France away whereas we didn't.

I think with home advantage and Ireland having played 4 on the trot that England can win this by two scores. Ireland are capable of winning for sure but I just fancy England to edge this.

Rodders France were appalling against England - worse than against us.

England did well and you can only beat what is in front of you but France are the 4th best team in this tournament make no mistake.

Fair enough Geoff, like I say I haven't seen the game yet. I think France are poor right now but winning in Paris is not easy and we couldn't manage it so fair play.

I think Ireland can win if they play well. But Ireland just don't string good performances together and haven't since the end of 2009. So I expect a poor showing and England to win comfortably enough. I hope we repeat the performance of last years clash.

I cant see any team being clear favourites to be honest. Personally i think that its going to be a very entertaining, high scoring match and i have no idea who will win. I will say Ireland by 5 though because i am Irish

Don't tell me you feel that one in your bones too Billy!....

Think this match determines for both England and Ireland whether or not their 6N is reasonably successful or a failure. Huge amount on the line for both coaches as much as anything else, and the players will be giving it every modicum of energy they have - cant wait.

I have given up on the bones rodders, damn things lie. I am now trusting the itches in my ears

.... itchy ears eh?..... maybe there is some hope for this one.....

Got to keep the approaches fresh rodders. Ireland won a GS purely based on my toe twitches

...I bet you well up with pride every time you get a toe twitch billy!

No; Ireland won the Grand Slam because i wore the same green t-shirt for every game and always sat in the same seat.

I've also noticed recently that Ireland win when I watch on BBC and the lose when I watch on RTE. So it's BBC all the way now.

Interesting, I noticed Ireland lose everytime I wear my RWC 2011 Ireland replica jersey ........

roddersm wrote:Interesting, I noticed Ireland lose everytime I wear my RWC 2011 Ireland replica jersey ........

Maybe if you burn it, Kidney will drop D'arcy?

feckless - im rolling with bbc for the actual game and rte for the studio

ryle nugent and donal lenihan do my nut in. unbelivably smug and condescending. we are amazing everyone else is crap etc etc. donal constantly on about not kicking the ball for territory enough. donal we are big man trust me. just not doing it very well. ryle having a fit if we dont go for drop goals anytime we get some territory

cannot bear john inverdale and his chums either. for some reason keith wood, absolute legend of a player, irritates me. cannot put a finger on it. john inverdale is beyond smug.

rant over : )

as for saturday. should be a really good game and actually looking forward to it after a half decent performance on saturday. hopefully we have enough gas in the tank to win there. We certainly have the players to do it. We typically have few issues upping our intensity levels playing against the red rose.

last time i was this excited was world cup before wales quarter final. lets hope we dont make a few small step forwards and then make a crashing step backwards.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

roddersm wrote:Interesting, I noticed Ireland lose everytime I wear my RWC 2011 Ireland replica jersey ........

Maybe if you burn it, Kidney will drop D'arcy?

...and maybe if I sacrifice a goat the IRFU will drop kidney too.....

roddersm wrote:Interesting, I noticed Ireland lose everytime I wear my RWC 2011 Ireland replica jersey ........

Well make sure it washed, ironed and worn on Saturday evening then please Rodders...

Is it disrespectful to Ireland to say that they are Englands bogey team? I get the point that it might indicate that England are the better side but just keep losing. But surely this is very clearly not the case?
Ireland do always beat England (apart from the last game and 90% of the games pre 2003!) and have clearly been the better side over the last 8 years head to head, but the respective records of England and Ireland in terms of Tests won during the period must be relatively similar (factoring RWC's, tours etc) and I expect that England have had the overall edge in terms of the rankings.

Do Irish fans feel disrespected to be described as Englands bogey team? It must be preferable to being called Irelands female dog (as the mods might put it)!

o niells in the west end of london doing free pints of guinness for every Irish try

damngoodOvalball wrote:Is it disrespectful to Ireland to say that they are Englands bogey team? I get the point that it might indicate that England are the better side but just keep losing. But surely this is very clearly not the case?
Ireland do always beat England (apart from the last game and 90% of the games pre 2003!) and have clearly been the better side over the last 8 years head to head, but the respective records of England and Ireland in terms of Tests won during the period must be relatively similar (factoring RWC's, tours etc) and I expect that England have had the overall edge in terms of the rankings.

Do Irish fans feel disrespected to be described as Englands bogey team? It must be preferable to being called Irelands female dog (as the mods might put it)!

since 03 ireland have probably been higher ranked than england i would have thought?

flynnnio wrote:o niells in the west end of london doing free pints of guinness for every Irish try

what the one on carnaby street- used to go there ever day after work!

flynnnio wrote:

since 03 ireland have probably been higher ranked than england i would have thought?

I suspect you might be right Flynnio. Just trying to work it out now.

Some stats:
Over the last 15 games England have won 7, Ireland 8
England have scored 320 points to Ireland's 273.

Clearly these stats look less good from an English perspective when you consider only the games since 2003...

mystiroakey wrote:

flynnnio wrote:o niells in the west end of london doing free pints of guinness for every Irish try

what the one on carnaby street- used to go there ever day after work!

Ya the main one i think near china town. Seen an advert on facebook but on paddys day they place be far to busy
for me and my gang. plenty of drunken birds to be found loitering outside about 3 am for easy picking though

flynnnio wrote:o niells in the west end of london doing free pints of guinness for every Irish try

It will be a cheap day for o niells me thinks.

o'neils is gonna possibly make more money in one day than they ever have before- ireland v england on paddys day!!!

France are our bogey team and I doubt we'd claim that means France are beneath us in quality overall but they just have a knack of beating us when sides we've beaten can beat them!

A bogey team is a side you have difficulty winning against even though you often beat very similar sides in quality. The unexplained if you will

Bogey team is a team who continually or regularly beats you and or you have bad luck/bad decisions - in my book.

If Wales keep winning games against Ireland through last minute non-penalties, illegal quick throw ins, wrong balls, etc,etc, then they can take over the mantle from France.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:It is very true that having all your resources n just a few sides works very well for Ireland. I cannot for the life of me see how England's thinly spread clubs can ever compete? I do wonder if it impacts depth though for Ireland? Doesn't seem to at mo though.

Given that the population of London is larger than that of the entire island of Ireland, then in theory London alone should be able to produce four teams of similar quality to the four Irish provinces. England's resources are not spread to thin. They have 3 times more top flight teams. And far more than 3 times more potential players as well as financial resources.

Nice logic FR. Just checked the relative populations to confirm my earlier suspicion: given their relative total populations, how come Ireland ever lose to NZ?...

Good comeback Simon. But to be fair, I did say "in theory".

I don't think larger population should automatically mean a better squad of 22. As New Zealand proves, a superior rugby playing culture is more important.

I was just addressing the suggestion that the talent in England is spread to thin and that's a disadvantage when English clubs play Irish provinces. The talent shouldn't be spread to thin England, because the higher population should be able to support more elite level professional teams than Ireland.

SimonofSurrey wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:It is very true that having all your resources n just a few sides works very well for Ireland. I cannot for the life of me see how England's thinly spread clubs can ever compete? I do wonder if it impacts depth though for Ireland? Doesn't seem to at mo though.

Given that the population of London is larger than that of the entire island of Ireland, then in theory London alone should be able to produce four teams of similar quality to the four Irish provinces. England's resources are not spread to thin. They have 3 times more top flight teams. And far more than 3 times more potential players as well as financial resources.

Nice logic FR. Just checked the relative populations to confirm my earlier suspicion: given their relative total populations, how come Ireland ever lose to NZ?...

The relative populations are:

England 51 million
London 7.8 million

Ireland 6.4 million
NZ 4.4 million

They're not that far apart, and playing numbers is the better measure really alongside popularity of sport. Rugby sits behind Soccer, Football/Hurling in Ireland; it's number one sport in NZ.

Total Registered Players

England - 2.54m of whom 167,000 (6.5%) are senior male players
Ireland - 153,000 of whom 25,500 (16.6%) are senior males
New Zealand - 138,000 of whom 27,300 (20%) are senior males

Others out of interest

Wales - 50,500, of which 22,400 are SMP (44%)
USA - 88,000 of which 35,794 are SMP (41%)
SA - 632,000 of which 109,000 are SMP (17%)

Source: RuggerBlogger - http://ruggerblogger.blogspot.com/2011/09/international-player-numbers.html

Right but if England had 4 they would be better teams and in theory a match for teh provinces.
That would make Englands teams better, even if that is a function of having a bigger base theyd still be better.

England could concentrate their resources more, if disenfranchising half the country and become like Wales was worth a bit of extra HC success.

It is likely at some point well see a reduction of the top tier to 8 or 10 clubs, the RFU seemed pretty set on that a few years ago. Clubs are already positioning themselves for regional franchising. The way the moneys being pumped into certain clubs too means at a certain point the status quo maintained by PRLs one for all policy will break.

Whether the further concentration of finance and player resource brings success in europe we'll have to see.

I don't think the SMP stat is relevant, in general if you turn 20/21 and have not been spotted there is a miniscule chance you will ever, so most SMP are guys who just like to play for fun. The junior male players would make more sense in regard for potential internationals.

"Given that the population of London is larger than that of the entire
island of Ireland, then in theory London alone should be able to produce
four teams of similar quality to the four Irish provinces. England's
resources are not spread to thin. They have 3 times more top flight
teams. And far more than 3 times more potential players as well as
financial resources."

such a ridiculas argument. firstly i went to school in london and we didnt play rugby(primary or secondary)- all my friends went to school in london- guess what- didnt play rugby.- can someone tell where these 2.5 million registered rugby players play? lol i really have no idea!!- its seems mental to me

Well when you consider that each prem club has a large squad, then a youth academy including age grade from U16 up, most have an amateur team, and a junior section, then you go to the championship etc etc, it soon amounts. Then there are amateur clubs all over the place with similar...

look the point is london is the silly argument- because it isnt played here as much- maybe not even to 10% of the rest of the country pro rated!

the 7.6 million people living in london really do not play rugby on the whole- its not even shown in pubs, its not played in way more than half the schools, some people dont even know what the game is!!

A resurgent New England will thrash Ireland. Ireland have not met a decent side yet - including the overrated and lucky Welsh. France to end that luck with 6 changes to their XV. Its what they do best. Thrive on adversity and beat all the odds. Check the RWC.

This gig aint over yet folks.

Thrive on adversity and beat all the odds. Check the RWC.

Is that the semi or the final?

When was the last time England thrashed Ireland?

Your right, the gig ain't over, but she is warming up, and about to belt out a blinder that chunky old mare!

It would be a great Super Saturday. Italy to beat Scotland. France to beat Wales. And, totally against the 6-N grain, England to thrash Ireland.

Why do I want my country thrashed by the New Old Enemy? I want rid of Elmer Fudge.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I don't think the SMP stat is relevant, in general if you turn 20/21 and have not been spotted there is a miniscule chance you will ever, so most SMP are guys who just like to play for fun. The junior male players would make more sense in regard for potential internationals.

Here's the figures from the countries cited above:

England: 1,990,988 (Reg/Unreg) 602,564 (TMP) and 131,399 (SMP)**
New Zealand: 137,835 (Reg/Unreg) 39,317 (Teen Male Players) and 27,374 (SMP)
Ireland: 153,080 (R/U) 57,867 (TMP) and 25,440 (SMP)

Some of the teen players are also switched off early if they don't make it in the school system/club feeder, and/or get diverted into other competing sports. Rugby League does this to a certain degree in NZ and GAA in Ireland, where kids are often playing two or more sports.

Wales: 50,557 (R/U) - 14,500 (TMP) and 22,408 (SMP)
Scotland: 38,500 (R/U) - 15,009 (TMP) and 11,687 (SMP)


Source: IRB.com** The figures for England differ on IRB site compared to Ruggerblogger site

mystiroakey wrote:the 7.6 million people living in london really do not play rugby on the whole- its not even shown in pubs, its not played in way more than half the schools, some people dont even know what the game is!!

This might surprise you but neither do the 6.4 million Irish play rugby on the whole. A sizeable number of them are babies, toddlers and old folks ...and another sizeable number much prefer to watch Eastenders than even do a modicum of exercise.

But that still leave London with 7.6 million and Ireland with 6.4. On average, London should be able to produce more rugby players than Ireland.

England have a far more racially diverse population than any other in Europe. It is reflected in the team. And that's just 1st generation.

Think your out there Fly, London is such a cosmopolitan city I'd imagine a large chunk of that population are non nationals of some sort. Then of the rest a lot will live in inner city suburbs where football dominates over anything else, not to mention all the London Football clubs. Then of those left over quite a lot are young proffesionals from all over the UK, not a lot of those would be rugby fans.

Spending a bit of time around London Welsh recently and the area of Richmond it's quite clear rugby isn't a big priority in London.

You know what point they are trying to make.

mystiroakey wrote:its not even shown in pubs, its not played in way more than half the schools, some people dont even know what the game is!!

That's equally true all over Ireland. For all the talk of the growth in rugby in Ireland, it grew from a tiny base and is still a minority sport, just like in England. 90% of my friends don't watch it. It's all soccer in my town. And it's all Gaelic football in the rural area's around the town.

England has more people, more clubs, more players, so by the logic of my (admittedly limited) mind, England should be able to produce more elite players to fill more elite teams. Having 12 teams to Ireland's 4 should not mean their talent is spread to thin, because going by weight of numbers and the law of averages, they should be able to fill 12 teams with playing panels of comparable talent to Ireland's 4.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Think your out there Fly, London is such a cosmopolitan city I'd imagine a large chunk of that population are non nationals of some sort. Then of the rest a lot will live in inner city suburbs where football dominates over anything else, not to mention all the London Football clubs. Then of those left over quite a lot are young proffesionals from all over the UK, not a lot of those would be rugby fans.

Spending a bit of time around London Welsh recently and the area of Richmond it's quite clear rugby isn't a big priority in London.

You know what point they are trying to make.

It's not a reality comparison, it's saying that due to population size, London alone could man four 'regions' equivalent to Ireland's provinces. Nobody is saying rugby is popular in footballing and metropolitan London, the example is being used to illustrate a point that England's human resources far outstrip Ireland's. If ever that theory needed an example in the first place!

Wheres your town rogue? I lived in Limerick, Ennis, then at Kilrush and Galway for a few years and it's very big all over the west. Infact I'd say it was number one at times, not year round obviously but a lot of the time.

It would be interesting to find out participation levels in London alone!