Just how good can this England team become?

First topic message reminder :

Let's take a look at the facts that are indisputable and then discuss the opinions various individuals may have in an unbised manner.

The facts:

1. This young England team have bee together a mere 7 weeks.
2. They went away to Scotland and beat a tough, improving Scotland with a lot more exerience.
3. Won away in Italy.
4. Lost to an experienced, relatively successful Wales side having controlled the game and been denied a try at the end that would have drawn the match.
5. Gone to Paris and played the narrowly defeated RWC finalists, outscored them 3 tries to 1, and come away with a famous victoy.
6. Risen to be the top ranked NH team after a mere 7 weeks together and very few caps between them.

Okay now for some opinion:

I believe this team is running at less than 50% of its potential as is evident in the way that the team clearly aren't playing as a unit (how could they after 7 weeks and 4 matches?), which is key as 15 players together are far stronger than 15 individuals. Yet look at what they've achieverd - it's astounding! I think we should do very well in SA this summer, winning the series and finish the year in the top 3, possibly second place. From then on the sky's the limit - the front row look awsome already, second row are bossing the line out but perhaps need Lawes back to offer a little more in the loose, the back row are outstanding with an embarresment of riches but may be even better with an out and out 7, half backs world class with lots of depth on the bench, centres at last look great and a backline that can tear any team to shreds with the right pocession.

The future looks very bright indeed but other teams are bound to improve so Enland must keep SL in the job and carry on wortking hard and show no signs of complacency which I sincerely doubt they will. Thought?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Speaking as a New Zealander, I'd love it if someone could keep France out of 4th spot, we'd much rather play them in our RWC pool and be guaranteed to not meet them in a quarter or semi.

It's meeting them in the final that was the problem.

Morgannwg wrote:Luckless; do you really think I should start my own topic on how good Wales can become?

I agree geoff. The hooker list is not weak when you have players like Best and Ford in the home nations. THere's two Lions right there. The third? Could be Rees, or Owens. Personally, I would go for somebody young, so either Hartley or Owens. And IMO, Hartley isn't even the best hooker in England.

Yeah but both the chaps at Saracanes are a bit too South African to be selected.

Thomh
I do hope you mean Ben Morgan (not the other one) will be playing for my local team Glos.
Yes, v promising player and not to be picky, but he actually could do with losing a few pounds and becoming a little quicker. He probably is off to SAFF land first, so will need to be fit for that England gig.

SecretFly wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Speaking as a New Zealander, I'd love it if someone could keep France out of 4th spot, we'd much rather play them in our RWC pool and be guaranteed to not meet them in a quarter or semi.

It's meeting them in the final that was the problem.

No problem, we have a 100% winning record against the French in finals. Quarters and Semis OTOH

Morgannwg wrote:A young and inexperienced Wales team went on to get fourth place in the World Cup and are now first place in the Six Nations. A lot more achieved than the young England team. So I believe the real question you should ask is just how good can this Wales team become.

wow the insecurity here is incredible! Dont worry Morgannwg, people are impressed with wales. They are playing well across the park with quality, young players, and a victory over England at twickenham is such a rarity that it deserves applause. Just because someone dares to write an article which doesnt fawn over Wales, and instead focuses on one of the other 5 teams, it doesnt mean that this is an attack on Wales. Stop being so sensitive!

To answer the OP, I'd say that England do seem to be developing a solid base from which to climb. Its impressive that we have won 3 away from home although we have actually won 4 out of our last 5 games in Paris despite being generally pretty dissapointing. The team has improved game on game and only narrowly lost to Wales at home. Now a loss is a loss and Wales won fair and square but this is the best welsh side in many years. They had just had a relatively (both in relation to the other home unions and Wales terrible RWC record) good RWC by coming 4th and had beaten Ireland in Dublin so not a bad effort from such an inexperienced Eng side. I think that this England team could become very good but they need to continue improving at this rate. The Ireland match will be a good indicator of both where the team is and what they need to do. Ireland have been Englands bogey side since 2003. We have only won one 6N game against them in that time and clearly this needs to change.

There is very little between England, Ireland, Wales and France at the moment. All four teams will need to improve dramatically in order to beat the 3N teams regularly home and away

damngoodOvalball wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:A young and inexperienced Wales team went on to get fourth place in the World Cup and are now first place in the Six Nations. A lot more achieved than the young England team. So I believe the real question you should ask is just how good can this Wales team become.

wow the insecurity here is incredible! Dont worry Morgannwg, people are impressed with wales. They are playing well across the park with quality, young players, and a victory over England at twickenham is such a rarity that it deserves applause. Just because someone dares to write an article which doesnt fawn over Wales, and instead focuses on one of the other 5 teams, it doesnt mean that this is an attack on Wales. Stop being so sensitive!

To answer the OP, I'd say that England do seem to be developing a solid base from which to climb. Its impressive that we have won 3 away from home although we have actually won 4 out of our last 5 games in Paris despite being generally pretty dissapointing. The team has improved game on game and only narrowly lost to Wales at home. Now a loss is a loss and Wales won fair and square but this is the best welsh side in many years. They had just had a relatively (both in relation to the other home unions and Wales terrible RWC record) good RWC by coming 4th and had beaten Ireland in Dublin so not a bad effort from such an inexperienced Eng side. I think that this England team could become very good but they need to continue improving at this rate. The Ireland match will be a good indicator of both where the team is and what they need to do. Ireland have been Englands bogey side since 2003. We have only won one 6N game against them in that time and clearly this needs to change.

There is very little between England, Ireland, Wales and France at the moment. All four teams will need to improve dramatically in order to beat the 3N teams regularly home and away

Our Bogey is inevitably France. We stop England short of their objectives. France always stops us. Maybe we could do a swap for the next decade?

Yes the amount of sensitivity is astonishing.

But I agree that this England team has the potential to go all the way and that Wales are stronger than they've been for years and will deserve the GS if they get it. Ireland are very strong particularlyn in the pack and France, well they're French. So in summary exciting time for NH rugby and we can say for the first time since the England dominance of 2000-2003, - watch out SH, the NH are coming.

Our first 15 are looking good, and improving but the bench really does need to be looked at. I don't see much "strength in depth". I can only think of one occassion when I thought a substitution was actually going to improve us, and that was Palmer for Botha.

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:4. Lost to an experienced, relatively successful Wales side having controlled the game and been denied a try at the end that would have drawn the match.

Not factually correct.Even if Strettle had managed to ground the ball a mega-pressurised touchline conversion attempt would have been required to tie the match.
England have done better than I expected.They will hopefully give us a game at the MS next year!

Can people please remember that this England team haven't been together long and that although they've had some good results and could become very good indeed they also may become quite poor for a few games in the short to mid term.

So often we get a run of good results, and everyone behaves like we're the best side ever, or are about to become it. Then we lose a couple of games and everyone wants to sack the coaches and change most of the team.

I hope this team becomes very good, but it's way too early to tell. The best team they've played so far is Wales. To be a truly great team you need to play and beat New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. To be one of the best ever you need to do this away from home.

Having potential is actually very easy, most young sides have potential. Actually being very good is a lot harder.

screamingaddabs wrote:Can people please remember that this England team haven't been together long and that although they've had some good results and could become very good indeed they also may become quite poor for a few games in the short to mid term.

So often we get a run of good results, and everyone behaves like we're the best side ever, or are about to become it. Then we lose a couple of games and everyone wants to sack the coaches and change most of the team.

I hope this team becomes very good, but it's way too early to tell. The best team they've played so far is Wales. To be a truly great team you need to play and beat New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. To be one of the best ever you need to do this away from home.

Having potential is actually very easy, most young sides have potential. Actually being very good is a lot harder.

Who let a sensible guy in here? This place will pick up a bad reputation if the doorman doesn't do his duty!

SecretFly wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Can people please remember that this England team haven't been together long and that although they've had some good results and could become very good indeed they also may become quite poor for a few games in the short to mid term.

So often we get a run of good results, and everyone behaves like we're the best side ever, or are about to become it. Then we lose a couple of games and everyone wants to sack the coaches and change most of the team.

I hope this team becomes very good, but it's way too early to tell. The best team they've played so far is Wales. To be a truly great team you need to play and beat New Zealand, Australia and South Africa. To be one of the best ever you need to do this away from home.

Having potential is actually very easy, most young sides have potential. Actually being very good is a lot harder.

Who let a sensible guy in here? This place will pick up a bad reputation if the doorman doesn't do his duty!

It seems 606v2 has a revolving door policy, so the doorman must be ronan O'Gara.

Sorry, just a joke.

Cipriani would have worked just as well, if not better Biltong

Morne steyn during last year's tri nations could also get the job.

ok the defence and the attitude are excellent, but we still lack fluidity/creativity in attack and score more points from opposition offensive mistakes rather than creating our own try scoring opportunities(Croft excepted) and some of the passing has been poor,however the team has improved game on game, so grounds to be cautiously optimistic.......

biltongbek wrote:
It seems 606v2 has a revolving door policy, so the doorman must be ronan O'Gara.

Now aren't you the lucky guy that I'm Irish and not Welsh.

A word of caution - its common for new managers to get good results at the beginning of a takeover. Gatland for example won a GS in his first season (a tournament which we where not favourites to do so).

The real acid test is not at how good your opening 10 matches go but how you develop the side in the second season. Most these guys are new to the international scene so sides will eventually have more and more analysis on them as they progress.

They have the potential to be good but equally could be awful by next year. Think a key factor will be if they keep Lancaster or if they go for a new coach.

To be perfectly honest though the Summer Tours will be the real tests for the NH sides. England in SA could be the making/breaking of them depending on how that goes.

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
It seems 606v2 has a revolving door policy, so the doorman must be ronan O'Gara.

Now aren't you the lucky guy that I'm Irish and not Welsh.

Well, you have to give me credit for knowing what subject matter is taboo and what not.

I will never joke around with some teams, the backlash alone can take weeks to sort out in the aftermath.

Agree with all of that Mushroom.

I just hope that Lancaster gets the job so that we can properly judge him over the next 12 months. If we appoint somebody else then we are back to square one again really in terms of development.

biltongbek wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
It seems 606v2 has a revolving door policy, so the doorman must be ronan O'Gara.

Now aren't you the lucky guy that I'm Irish and not Welsh.

Well, you have to give me credit for knowing what subject matter is taboo and what not.

I will never joke around with some teams, the backlash alone can take weeks to sort out in the aftermath.

I find it's the Italians on here that you've got to watch out for. Even mention their side in passing and they give you the silent treatment. Board's full of 'em. Once they get their own smiley they'll be swarming all over.

Yeah, those Italians can give you the cold shoulder, and they don't forget either.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
It seems 606v2 has a revolving door policy, so the doorman must be ronan O'Gara.

Now aren't you the lucky guy that I'm Irish and not Welsh.

Well, you have to give me credit for knowing what subject matter is taboo and what not.

I will never joke around with some teams, the backlash alone can take weeks to sort out in the aftermath.

I find it's the Italians on here that you've got to watch out for. Even mention their side in passing and they give you the silent treatment. Board's full of 'em. Once they get their own smiley they'll be swarming all over.

Milk, you're another guy that's much too smart for these boards. Wait there whilst I call for someone to escort you outside.

England has won all three of their away matches against Scotland, France and Italy. That´s a noteworthy achievement especially how Scotland has troubled England at Murrayfield recently to say the least. If England can beat Ireland, who has troubled them even more away and at home, then the 6N campaign would be an outstanding success considering how many injuries England have had and the fact they had a caretaker coach and came so close to getting a draw against the most consistent side in this year´s 6N.

But as others have mentioned, how many times do we hear the story of an England on the rise and ready to take on the SH teams and for that not to materialise? Make no mistake, a 3 match tour of SA is one of the hardest places to tour with certain grounds, notably at high altitude, not so much an impenetrable fortress to visiting teams but more one surrounded by impassable minefields and surrounded by a shark infested network of moats. As if to make it even more challenging, England play Fiji, Australia, SA and NZ in successive weeks at the end of the year. A very good yardstick to measure where indeed England is at in the international pecking order but an exceptionally tall order.

So England has every reason to feel confident and satisfied with their performance so far. Their result in particular away in France is a great achievement. But look at the deflating effect of the defeat in Ireland last year and you realise that feeling of confidence can be quickly stripped away. You´ve got a long way to go in this mother of all seasons. I agree England have certainly a lot of room for improvement but that is precisely why we should hold off the celebratory pats on the back for the moment.

for me every england side will always be compared to the 2003 team.

England even when in apparent turmoil in the last two WC have gotten to the final and QF respectively and are always competitive and that will never change due to their player base and resources, you just have to look at how well their u20's do to know that they will always be near the top table in world rugby...

so in comparison can they reach the heights of the 2003 vintage. I would say no for the following reasons...

1) the game has moved on, the interpretation of the laws favour the teams whose national game have traditionally been placed on flair speed and attack. It is no surprise that the teams who did well in WC are teams who are comfortable to play in this way. Englnd and the style played in the prem is not condusive to the current interpretation of the laws.

2) Englands pack will not ever dominate sides like they used to. Their scrum (although very good against france) is not the weapon it used to be. Although i must say Cole impresses me in tight and loose the amount of times ive seen him jackling reminds me of a gethin jenkins in loose play.

3) Their back row, i think they are missing a world class 7. Croft is quality and morgan has potential but robshaw is not up their in the top 5 in the world and i think england suffer as a result.

All in all i this team as they are now will win games and 6n championships and the odd game against SH opposition but i cannot see them dominating the game ala pre 2003 nor winning a WC, although two or three class players in key positions could change all that...still be interesting viewing going forward

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

nathan wrote:

gowales wrote:Why do you post that in a thread named "Just how good can this England team becpme?" ? Whats the point exactly. Are you just trying to urine some people off

tell me about it, he does it everywhere and needs to be banned.

What????? I think you'll find that the post dicusses exactly what it says on the tin. If you don't like discussing England, urine off to another board!

think you've got the wrong end of the stick as i was referring to morgan.....

Was impressed with England on the weekend, that was Crofts best game since the lions. When hes good, hes very, very good.

England looked better in attack, and just as solid in defense, although there are of course improvements that can be made all over the park - which is exactly where England want to be at the moment.

Tuilagi & Barritt have looked good, although I'd still want more from Barritt in attack, is there scope to move tuilagi to 12 a la jamie roberts and have another 13 outside him? There seems to be more potential floating around at 13 than 12 in the premiership. Defensively though, Barritts been outstanding.

I think this could just aswell be a 2010-type false dawn after the Ozzy wins, they've played well, no doubt buoyed by the perceived injustice at twickers (i say perceived injustice, i wont let my thoughts about that out on this thread mind) but they've done everything asked of them so far.

3/4 games won. Only loss to the side going for the grandslam. A new manager, new ethos, they seem to be working hard for eachother, something not really seen in the latter part of Johnsons reign.

The signs are good, and England will nearly always have a number of players who have mass potential, its just building a system around them that allows the team to flourish. Lancaster is showing signs he's learning, and the team are buying into his work behind the scenes. Thats all anyone can ask for at the moment and we're always told that test-level rugby is a results-based business. 1 more win and you'd have to feel Lancaster deserves the job.

So far for England, after the wc, its onwards and upwards, potential to take on the top 3 from here? Looking good. Itll be tough to get anything this year, although the potential is there and given time and direction, this england side can become very strong.

This year England have made a promising start,Lancaster and co. are going in the right direction.To be fair a season with 3 wins out of 5 and a possible 4th
with a side of less than 200 caps.Is a promising start,expecting them to be 2003 all over again is simplistic and optimistic at best so far.
Lancaster and Co. deserve at least another season together on results so far.
Wins over Scotland,and Italy were probably expected,a narrow loss to Wales,then the best win over France Saturday.
France a squad full of World Class Players?maybe but not as a TEAM,a dreadful RWC.Typical France nearly won the RWC,poor in the pool stages,scraped past England and a 14 man Wales.Done little to prove there a world force since,struggled v Italy,Scotland,lucky to draw with Ireland well beaten by England.
Just as likely to put Wales to the sword,Ireland will be very tough they always are.
Ai`s will give a better indication with Sa and Nz in rebuilding mode they may just get some SH scalps.
BUT in NZ a lot of unknown players are holding there hands up especially at 9/10/12.Future All Blacks maybe,it will be interesting to see if they can keep
winning unlike recent winners who went down hill.
Nick Mallett will be new Coach according to BBC site,a man who had success with the Boks.But whose record with Italy is no better than John Kirwans,and a the tactical genius who played Bergamasco at Scrum Half.

Just need to correct your 'facts' the 'experienced' Wales team has been together 12 months, having 6 debutants last 6N and 3 this one. They are a young and very succewsfull team, WC semis and a 6N championship (almost) within 12 months of being together.

Now thats cleared up, I think certain elements of this England side can be very succesfull, but they need to replace a few clubman first.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Just need to correct your 'facts' the 'experienced' Wales team has been together 12 months, having 6 debutants last 6N and 3 this one. They are a young and very succewsfull team, WC semis and a 6N championship (almost) within 12 months of being together.

Now thats cleared up, I think certain elements of this England side can be very succesfull, but they need to replace a few clubman first.

4th place in a RWC is not succesful. 1st place is. That said, a GS/Championship win is obviously succesful and would be fully deserved by this Welsh side. The point is that the Welsh side is undoubtedly more experienced than England - Wales had more caps on the bench than England did on the pitch! I think you are being overly sensitive Bluesman. I dont think anyone is trying to take anything away from Wales by saying that they are about a year ahead of England in terms of development. Wales are an inexperienced side but they are more experienced than England. Incidentally where did Wales finish in last years 6N table?

nathan wrote:

A World Cup and 3 Finals wrote:

nathan wrote:

gowales wrote:Why do you post that in a thread named "Just how good can this England team becpme?" ? Whats the point exactly. Are you just trying to urine some people off

tell me about it, he does it everywhere and needs to be banned.

What????? I think you'll find that the post dicusses exactly what it says on the tin. If you don't like discussing England, urine off to another board!

think you've got the wrong end of the stick as i was referring to morgan.....

Yep, sorry Nathan my error has already been pointed out I have apologised on a prvious post but once again sorry.

Well the OP hasn't stated a more experienced side, its claimed we were an experienced side.

I think we need to put things into perspective, England have been very good for the standards set, but in reality France just weren't at the races, as good as England were France were just as bad.

4th is very succesfull for a team who finished 4th in the 6N, had 6 debutants in said tourny, whos starting lineup V France had 9 players who not only had never been to a WC but hadn't completed 12 months of int rugby, a team whos best finish has been 3rd, and have struggle to make an impact on the WC to date.

You have to remember what a small rugby community we are compared to most, 4th is certainly succesfull, as if this England side had finished 4th we would all be talking about not turning up in 2015 cos noone stands a chance!

Incidentally how many SH mercenaries are in the Welsh squad? lets not turn this into poo slinging!

how on earth have england leap frogged wales in the rankings?

wonder_man wrote:how on earth have england leap frogged wales in the rankings?

more points amassed from a higher ranked side.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well the OP hasn't stated a more experienced side, its claimed we were an experienced side.

I think we need to put things into perspective, England have been very good for the standards set, but in reality France just weren't at the races, as good as England were France were just as bad.

4th is very succesfull for a team who finished 4th in the 6N, had 6 debutants in said tourny, whos starting lineup V France had 9 players who not only had never been to a WC but hadn't completed 12 months of int rugby, a team whos best finish has been 3rd, and have struggle to make an impact on the WC to date.

You have to remember what a small rugby community we are compared to most, 4th is certainly succesfull, as if this England side had finished 4th we would all be talking about not turning up in 2015 cos noone stands a chance!

Incidentally how many SH mercenaries are in the Welsh squad? lets not turn this into poo slinging!

Your post is totally off topic and I may add, more at home in the realm of fantasy where you clearly reside. However your posts are always good value, I'll give you that blueman.

Fly

I disagree, Ireland were very good first game up and I'd argue that was their best performance to date, they made far too many errors 2nd half V France, and walked over an Italy team who gave up the ghost. Scotland are a frustrated unit at present.

Ireland defencively aren't a super power, but you defended very well against Wales, and first half V France!

AWCA3F

What was fantasy? It was reality! A lot of posters struggle with reality on here...

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well the OP hasn't stated a more experienced side, its claimed we were an experienced side.

I think we need to put things into perspective, England have been very good for the standards set, but in reality France just weren't at the races, as good as England were France were just as bad.

4th is very succesfull for a team who finished 4th in the 6N, had 6 debutants in said tourny, whos starting lineup V France had 9 players who not only had never been to a WC but hadn't completed 12 months of int rugby, a team whos best finish has been 3rd, and have struggle to make an impact on the WC to date.

You have to remember what a small rugby community we are compared to most, 4th is certainly succesfull, as if this England side had finished 4th we would all be talking about not turning up in 2015 cos noone stands a chance!

Incidentally how many SH mercenaries are in the Welsh squad? lets not turn this into poo slinging!

I had no intention of turning it into poo slinging. Where did Wales finish in last years 6N seems like a normal enough question to ask a Welsh fan. Simply put, 4th place is not succesful. Only first place is - they are the succesful side at a RWC. Full stop. I doubt you would have had many England fans celebrating 4th place. Look, Wales played well and impressed at the RWC but ultimately the were unsuccesful, even when you consider how bad they were in 2007. Surely NZ are a small rugby community?

I think you need to set your bar a little higher bluesman. Wales are looking like a capable team, they are winning some games well, and importantly some where they dont play particularly well.

As your final question, two of your current best players are English, and you evidently havent been following rugby long enough to remember Mr Howarth's (et al) 'granny'

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

I disagree, Ireland were very good first game up and I'd argue that was their best performance to date, they made far too many errors 2nd half V France, and walked over an Italy team who gave up the ghost. Scotland are a frustrated unit at present.

Ireland defencively aren't a super power, but you defended very well against Wales, and first half V France!

Bluesman, you know yourself we defended badly (for our level of normal defence - our mistakes not the pressure) and we kicked ball back at an attacking side that had huge ball carriers who love building pace before smashing. We committed suicide. That was us. That Wales took the gifts freely offered and pushed up for the final onslaught was your (Welsh) bit.

I think we've done this one more than once now, and we're always going to disagree on it; ...but there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that our first game was our best of the season. Trust me, I've been watching Ireland for over 30 years. I know when they're ringing in their performance.

thebluesmancometh wrote: I disagree, Ireland were very good first game up and I'd argue that was their best performance to date....

You're on your own there. Although I know it probably suits Welsh fans to tell it that way in the context of a possible GS. Understandable to gild the legend somewhat.

Ireland were pants in the first match - lacking intensity, tackling, and giving away tries with poor defensive tactics in the first half. They turned it around somewhat in the second half, and but for a bit of bad luck might have won the game, but that was more to do with Wales falling off than any superb performance by Ireland. Their failure to defend the lead at the end was shocking - Wales practically walked up the pitch into the 22 into the arms of a fortuitous penalty.

Oh, let's not forget that Ireland lost. And no one thought they didn't deserve to - they weren't good enough.

The fact that Ireland have improved with a rearranged schedule, losing some key players/captain in the ensuing matches, racking up some tries, and winning match point, is a bigger indicator of an improvement as the tournament has progressed.

Morgannwg wrote:A young and inexperienced Wales team went on to get fourth place in the World Cup and are now first place in the Six Nations. A lot more achieved than the young England team. So I believe the real question you should ask is just how good can this Wales team become.

maybe thats a thread you should start then! not sure i get your point here, or do we have to only talk about wales

No you bombed 1/2p with high balls to gain an advantage, it was a clever tactic that has been copied by everyone who's played us since. It nullifies our backline and plays to 1/2p's weakness.

Defence is never Irelands strength, you lack a back row unit, and don't get enough killer time at the breakdown. The choke tackle hold up thing you do is nullified by us very cleverly as for the last 3 games we have carried lower and gone to ground earlier.

The best Irish performances are full of passion, and tend to be when you have something to prove, V France you played like an inferior team holding on, V Wales you went out their to beat us, thats why your defence didn't look top notch, you were beaten by a team you tried to beat, instead of defend for your life and take whats on offer, as England did V Wales.

Thats part of the reason Scotland are struggling now, they got to a point where they could keep teams close by trying not to lose, but now they are trying to beat teams they are struggling!

And please remind me which 2 of our best players are English? Cuthbert is from Gloucester but has a Welsh heritage, and North is so Welsh he doesn't like speaking English!
Plus I'd argue that our 2 best player are Warbs and Davies!

blues one thing i agree with you on- wales looked immense in that first game- i think they just outplayed a very good irteland side- simple as that. best quailty game for my money

Ehh.. Defence is probably Ireland's GREATEST strength atm bluesman..

well lets be honest even i am talking about wales now- jeas another thread hijacked lol.

Ok England- where can they go?

all the way to the top!

The sad retirement from all Rugby today has denied England the chance to complete their jigsaw.Supreme openside for Wasps and England has been beaten by injuries.Top,top player that has been dealt a cruel hand.I wish him well for the future and assure him that his talents were recognised outside of his "parish".

It never seems to amaze me on 606v2.

The post is asking, just how good could this England team become?

Why does it always turn into a Wales v England thread, a Wales are better than England, and England are better than Wales.

Why can't all posters just answer what the thread is about?

damngoodOvalball

I've supported Wales since the mid-1950s and remember Shane Howarth (Newport) and Brett Sinkinsson (Neath) well. It turned out that they were not Welsh-qualified, through grandparents, after they'd already played for Wales quite a few times! Lots of egg on faces - especially Graham Henry's as he had inspired 'Grannygate'.

But all the present squad are correctly Welsh-qualified, under the IRB rules that also apply to England and every other national squad. There's no question about it, and if people think the rules are wrong it's up to them to get them changed. To say that two of the current best Welsh players are English whilst evoking Howarth et al is just stirring the waters.

well then isnt it about time someone started another bickering thread up then- because i agree its getting stupid lol- every thread turns the same way