Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:No scrum no attack....but nice try in deflecting attention away from the uselessness from some of the players. Today mostly from leinster..even before Ross went off.

Redden useless
Heaslip useless
O'BRIEN useless
Healey Useless
Darcy useless
Sexton non existent

Try discussing what happened today rather than making up something about kidney where he has to deal with the best props in Ireland not being Irish.

Trying to make it into a provincial argument to deflect attention from the uselessness of Kidney.3 years of continued decline despite the quality of players at his disposal improving is indefensible.

Try discussing what Kidney has overseen for the last 3 years rather than using one off matches as examples,overall he's the man responsible and he has turned us into also rans.

This

I particularly like how sexton jus doesn't exist! Funny how we all imagine him together.

I said it when he was appointed. Wrong choice to develop Ireland into a WC side. He started off with an aging team left by EOS. A team that had just missed out on 2 SLAMS and 3 x 6-N Championships by a whisker. So he stirred that aging side up, playing shoite rugby in doing so. And unfortunately for us in the long-term - he won the SLAM. It was a major false-dawn. He has since taken this team backwards in 3 years, Anyone who defends him now, is not in the real World.

Its not just today, this has been happening for years now. This team is clueless and is being forced to play anti-rugby in the modern-era. He must go after the AB's crush us 3-0 in the Summer.Id rather he went now. Not only has he failed his remit, even worse, he has wasted those precious years in the non-development of our squad. He was ok at Munster, because the rugby they played back then - worked. It doesn't any more and he is blatantly failing to realise that fact. He's lost at this level and I don't think he actually realises it. That is a problem for the IRFU to sort out. Another year with him, is another year wasted. Get rid of him now.

I'm not discussing Irish International rugby until he does go. It is pointless with him in charge. To think we got rid of Gatland when he had this team starting to play great rugby. IRFU and EOS shafted him.

But I'll end with this tome.
I'd admire the IRFU if they ended his contract and got a new Head Coach in. Top level. One with vision. One to take a new look and better coached squad to NZ. Even if they are crushed, at least it would start a new era. Darcy must go. DOC must go. ROG should retire and let Madigan play and get some experience with Sexton in the squad. Heaslip annoys me. He needs to be dropped. Not benched. We have a plethora of quality backrowers, who would do the job better than he is at the minute. It might also wake him up. Shake him out of his comfort zone. He is a great player. Just looks jaded in an unbalanced backrow unit. Shift O Brien there and POM at 7 for now. Leave 1F where he is. A proper 7 would enable both SOB and 1F to do what they do best.

Tom Court is not an International class Loosehead, never mind TH. Get someone in for him. I dont care what province he comes from. BOD will be gone by next year so time to give Earls his head and leave him there. He's done ok in this badly coached team. He needs help. BOD can give him that for a year, at 12 - then leave and make way for a new 12. We should start trying out new center-parings during that process. And take the pain that comes with it.

Groom POM or Dom Ryan for 7. Make it so at the provinces, IRFU. We badly need one. A proper 7, not a stand-in 6 or 8. That much has been proved beyond any doubt now. No more talk. Just do it. It's no use bringing Wallace back. He's near 90. And was never a 7 anyway. Like SOB.

We need to look at our wingers as well. We have some very talented speedsters coming through. Bowe has scored some nice tries, that's his job. But his all-round game has depreciated in the last 2 years. Maybe going back to Ulster will revive him. Or a move to the centre. A new coach (must be foreign) - could sort that out without the usual provincial bias..

Andy Trimble is a great player, but he is very replaceable now. I also don't think we have a decent international class scrum-half amongst that lot. TOL - NO. Reddan NO. Murray – maybe. IF he gets coached properly. He is still young, has great strength and is a great defender. Just don't turn him into the useless TOL. Kidney is. I hope the new Munster coach sees it and changes his style.

Our biggest problem - at prop, needs to be addressed with greater urgency from the provinces up. Today proved this (we already knew) with Ross's injury. We crumbled in the scrum and as a team.

All this will take 2 or 3 years, so we should be patient and be prepared to lose games in the process. I dont like losing, who does? But it hurts a lot less, if you see the squad grow, and go in the right direction. And being encouraged to play open-rugby as is happening at the 3 major Provinces and in the World outside.

I've just lost faith in the IRFU to actually change things. If they don't, I wont blame Kidney. I'll blame them. All they have to do is look at what Wales and England have done and copy it. Its not rocket-science.


Thank Allah for the HC and 3 great teams in it. The provinces are by-passing the national setup in quality and in all other areas of the game. We badly need a carefully choosen National coaching team. Hand-picked, to carry on their work at a higher level. No need to top ourselves just yet. Unless they extend Kidney's contract.

Thank Allah Gibbo really? Are there a couple of nuns weeping at their failings over that comment?

Ireland were the only side who played with the level of intensity and physicality that we did until today. And on St Paddys day as well, I know he was welsh but Im sure he wanted his adopted nation to do better.

Ireland need a coach like John Kirwan,the irish backs wouldnt know what hit them.in fact he'd probably just fire the lot of them and promote the under 20s or anyone elst that wanted to play.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Thank Allah Gibbo really? Are there a couple of nuns weeping at their failings over that comment?

Ireland were the only side who played with the level of intensity and physicality that we did until today. And on St Paddys day as well, I know he was welsh but Im sure he wanted his adopted nation to do better.

Im a non-believer Tycroes, so Allah does me. Bhudda and The Hindi Elephant are grand too. Also, intensity and physicallity are grand. But useless on their own. As is this passion bollix. We have no direction. No game plan and a coach that refuses to recognise and remedy that.

New ideas in the coaching set-up. Lets have them now. Enough of this chinese water torture.

Agree with a lot of what you say gibbo.

Tom court is our 2nd best loose head. Sadly he is probably somewhere up there in tight head terms too. The only other options are
Paddy Mcallister- very raw talent
Jamie hagan- not trusted at Leinster
Adam Macklin- far too young
There are no serious options at munster. Can't say for certain at Connacht.

There needs to be an evolution I agree

Healy, Cronin, Ross, Ryan, POC, POM, Wallace, Heaslip, Murray, sexton, Trimble, McFadden, earls, Zebo, Kearney

Mcallister/court,best, Ross, toner, Tuohy, ferris, POM, O'brien, reddan/Marshall, sexton, kearney Jr/fitz/Gilroy, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Jones


Are examples of two teams we could put out which could be reasonably competitive but with the added value of bringing through youth. No logic to those teams other than to highlight players that could potentially come through (or are deserving on form over incumbents)

MI5 got to gibbo in the dam last week and turned him into an england fan. this week it was Al Queda. Allah Akbar. Love Amsterdam

All joking aside Gibbo you are 100% spot on with your post. its not anti a certain province its just a cold hard look at the facts. our standards are lower than other nations. only that would explain darcy,donners, heaslip owning their respective jerseys

Unfortunately most people who i was in the pub with today saw it simply as a case of mike ross getting injured and a poor referee. i wonder about some folks. Im not a believer in drowning sorrows, left the pub with the right hump earlier. a mess of a performance and a day ruiner

Bring back the Bull

Notch wrote:New ideas in the coaching set-up. Lets have them now. Enough of this chinese water torture.

I can submit one , who would unquestionably help turn our pack around. Jonno Gibbes. He works with Feek already. He is the main reason we won 2 x HC's - under 2 different coaches.

Id hate to lose him though. But country 1st eh? (Im lying)

he would have done a damn sight better than court.

ross was bang in trouble when on pitch too lets be honest.. healy was marmalized by dan cole.

cole is a funny one, looks top drawer when he is up for it but other days not all that. struggles to get in leicester team at times

Well what we need more than anything else is a backs coach.

But Bernard Jackman on twitter today intimated he heard Gert Smal may be unable to return to his role due to health problems, which is disappointing for everyone involved in the set-up on a personal level.

I genuinely think we need a head coach more than a backs coach. Kidney dictates the style of play and I think it is erroneous to suggest otherwise. A backs coach would seriously have to challenge him and take himout of his comfort zone. I don't see Deccie allowing that.

Disappointing to hear that about smal though. Between that And the Bolton player today it puts everything else in perspective,

Thats' sad, if true. Smal did a good job. I hope he is fine and his sight gets back to normal.

I reckon we need a French backs coach. A Saffer for the forwards. A Kiwi Head Coach. And a Paddy for the passion coaching.

Passion coaching

Only in Ireland

Like others here completely agree w gibbo.
I think a lad like kirwan would be excellent. We need a guy like Schmidt but can't have Schmidt because we can have any affiliation with oneof the provinces.

Kidney cannot coach new age rugby, his goose was starting to brown nicely in 2010.

Agree with some of the teams posted above

Deccies selections yesterday were a disgrace if i may be honest.
I was suming not to see Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 from the start of the match. That and the fact that D'Arcy is seemingly undroppable no matter how poorly he plays.

I am not focusing on one match or tournement, i am focussing on years of demise under Deccie. Sure you can blame the players like D'Arcy having a bad game and not stepping up but he hasnt dont that for a long time and yet Deccie seems to be the only person who doesnt see this so poor D'Arcy is continually selected and continually fails.

I really dont want to see Deccie in charge of the tour down under but who can Ireland possibly get on such short notice?

hugo124 wrote:I think everyone in Ireland knew the game was over when Tom Court came on, except Kidney.I don't think any other professional coach in the world would have Tom Court on the bench, as he has shown time and time again how good he is at giving away penalties.We have young props like Jamie Hagan who aren't the best in the world but still better then court.
D'arcy although he has been a brilliant player over the years for Ireland, needs to go.The fact that Kidney can't see that baffles me.

The scrum was in trouble before Court came on.

Court is a perfectly decent LH he is not and never has been a TH. He is, at best 4th choice TH at Ulster but 2nd choice for Ireland

Dublin have made a complete horlix of the TH situation.
When Simon Best retired Ireland lost the only player capable of playing both sides , there is no one else since who come close.
They then put all their eggs in the Buckley basket as the replacement for Hayes. When that failed they got lucky with Ross coming through to be ok - but no more than that.

They have total taken their eye off the ball with respect to the players available- they failed to give Bracken a representive game to tie him into Ireland - he is now lost, they failed to make the necessary efforts to get Andress back, Hagan has been allowed to vegitate at Leinster.

Hagan, Andress, Fitzpatrick and Macklin should now get sapecialist coaching of the highest order with the hope 1 or 2 will come through in a year or two.

If Ross get injured we may have to call off the NZ games as the scrums could be too dangerous - I am perfectly serious. If NZ go against that scrum yesterday I fear for player safety.

well said,he is an awful coach he doesnt play our best players...andrew trimble is one of the worst wingers ive ever seen in my life.

Thank you for providing some narrow minded provincialism to a serious debate.

You may not rate Trimble, fair enough, but to say what you did is moronic.

We lost because our scrum disintegrated but there were other serious issues.
The continued selection of D'Arcy, who was in melt down and DOC, who contributed to the scrum debacle by not providing the beef necessary behind Court, and did nothing in the loose.
Again further evidence that our best three backrowers doesn't make for the best combination was provided.
TOL was so bad it was hard to watch.

Funnily enough I thought Best (the scrum was not of his making and he was our best player at the breakdown), Ryan, Ferris, Earls, Bowe and Kearney put in decent shifts

I have to say I thought sob was pretty damn good at the breakdown, I'd still put him to8 now with pom at 7 but I do think he takes an unfair amount of flak.

Trimble had an ok game I thought has improved no end under high ball and kicking.

Tol was very, very, very bad. Reddan was by no means good but tol is such an unbelievably poor 9, wish Marshall had been given a run we all know what tol can and can't do. Awful passer, was it two out onthe full, the dead ball thing (he had a lot more time than he thought)

Ryan looked very good at times IMO and earls was much better than before too albeit has trouble linking after breaks. He looked comfortable against tuilagi tho.

That drop goal from Darcy..........there are no words

I agree re SOB he deserves a run at 8

Pete that summed up D'arcy for me. I love the guy. I still remember the player that was waltzing past defences in 04 and was player of the tournament at least once (maybe twice). Sadly that is 8 years ago and those 8 years weigh heavy on the guy.

Ryan was a bloody nuisance to england at the ruck and this is where i feel POM could have added something too. Either way we finished 3rd, only beat Scotland and italy and have learnt next to zip regarding new blood. Not a great 6N. Roll on the heineken Cup.

The centre spots all depend on where Earls will play for munster next year. If Laulala is their first choice 13 then lets shift Earls to the wing and (on present form) drop trimble. Lets get cave in to 13 or mcfadden into 12 or go even mroe radical if needs be.

I'm with you there stand.

A lot of rugby to be played before the tour to nz but I would want to see

1) Ryan starting
2) tuohy or toner on the bench (both new age locks)
3) sexton continuing at 10
4) new centre partnership McFadden-cave or another depending on rugby between now and then
5) ferris-sob-pom tried
6) new props blooded at some stage (baabaas)
7) reinvention of attacking play
8) players to be on the same wavelength (Leinster attackin style)
9) new attitude to winning (no underdog attitude+no sit back and defend a lead)
10) Marshall, madigan, mcallister, dom Ryan, eom, jones, Zeno, Kearney jr to be included in training squads at the least

One question I have for everyone.Lets just say Hagan was up to the required standard and we dropped Court what would happen if Healy got an injury (which is more likely as he seems to pick up frequent knocks).

Imo Court is a more than capable loosehead and has done better than I expected of him this 6 nations when called upon but he's not a tighthead so we're not looking for a specialist prop but a player who is international class in both positions.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm with you there stand.

A lot of rugby to be played before the tour to nz but I would want to see

1) Ryan starting
2) tuohy or toner on the bench (both new age locks)
3) sexton continuing at 10
4) new centre partnership McFadden-cave or another depending on rugby between now and then
5) ferris-sob-pom tried
6) new props blooded at some stage (baabaas)
7) reinvention of attacking play
8) players to be on the same wavelength (Leinster attackin style)
9) new attitude to winning (no underdog attitude+no sit back and defend a lead)
10) Marshall, madigan, mcallister, dom Ryan, eom, jones, Zeno, Kearney jr to be included in training squads at the least

Pete most of those players have been in the training squads for the past year.
On your other points Ryan has to start, and tuohy should be on the bench. I don't
rate toner but he should be ahead of Doc at this stage. McFadden is obviously not trusted
my the management team in the centre and I agree with them. Every match he has started
in the centre, he has made a major mistake leading to a try. I would think that there is hopefully
a good chance of seeing bod earls for the summer tour. The problem with props is well known. We have
tried using the As to develop props but there is no one there,

Yesterday was a disaster, we were on the back foot all game but some extremely poor performances made
it worse than it should have been for us. Healy was terrible and I think the toll of playing four games in a row
was too much for him, I can't remember the last time he has had to do that. Ross was being beaten in the scrum
before he went off so that was unlikely to improve with court. Ryan, Best and Sob did decently, as did Ferris.
Heaslip, Doc and Reddan were poor. I would have been screaming for Reddan to come off if Tol hadn't been on
the bench, and to be fair to him he managed to surprise me and be worse than I though he could be. Sexton did
his best but wasn't helped by those inside him or the mess at 12. Darcy has had two good games in the last year and
a half, both against Italy which shows you how poor they are. Trimble was average.

I think people are being harsh on Earls for not passing on the breaks. Throughout the tournament he has been solid in defence
but more importantly has started running with the ball in two hands and looking for support. His passing has been good, his kicking
has been solid and he has played well despite having Darcy inside him. Yesterday for the breaks he was looking to pass but for the
second one when he only had one option, he was right to hold on as the English players shot up to prevent it.

Bowe and Kearney were both, good solid and dependable as usual.

I didn't read all that's been said. I'm sure it ALL HAS been said. Anything I might bring up is up there already - and all the counter-arguments too, I'm sure.

I'll say only this. We tolerate mediocrity much to much. Some will say that 3rd is a pretty good showing all in all. Some will say we need to bow and accept that other countries simply have better resources/players etc. Accept we are a mid ranking European side that sometimes manages to huff and puff above our weight for long enough to perhaps come in 2nd sometimes.

We'll if that's enough for us - so be it. Carry on the coaching mess that is Ireland.

When the Australian scrum was destroyed by the French on their last trip to Paris, they looked at themselves and said we're going to be crucified here unless we offset the importance of scrums. And they did. Again, Ireland come always with only one very rough gameplan and never show the malleability to change strategies when strategies need changing.

Losing might have been inevitable yesterday but the capitulation of professional players, flaying around like scared chickens, is intolerable.

That is not acceptable and the IRFU must stand up and admit guilt in allowing players in National colours to look so lost at sea, so bereft of ideas, so lacking in even the tactical disciplin needed to walk towards defeat with more dignity than was exhibited yesterday. Our National coaching system is in tatters and needs rebuilding. Now! - Not next year - now.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:One question I have for everyone.Lets just say Hagan was up to the required standard and we dropped Court what would happen if Healy got an injury (which is more likely as he seems to pick up frequent knocks).

Imo Court is a more than capable loosehead and has done better than I expected of him this 6 nations when called upon but he's not a tighthead so we're not looking for a specialist prop but a player who is international class in both positions.

I'm pretty sure I remember Ross switching to loosehead for Quins.
In fairness its ridiculous that there aren't two props on the bench
like in the HEC.

Its so frustrating, the players are there and the talent is very good. So why has D'Arcy and DOC been retained and get started over better options?

Why, when POM played 7 last weekend and Ireland looked alot more balanced, did Deccie drop him to the bench?

This 6N campaign has revealed more questions than answers unfortunately. This is not to take anything away from England who played well yesterday.

lads but gerry thornley said we are making progress and wales are stagnating

all of the above please pete. to be fair munster and ulster players have appeared to be on the same wave legnth this year.

a poor campaign and we are not in a good place. the only way is up you would hope but first we need to take a long hard look at ourselves both coach and players.

i think kidney will get the summer tour if he appoints a new attack coach. last chance saloon to show some evidence that we can move forward

I reckon it is,generally, easier for a TH to move to LH than the other way round.
Trouble is Ireland only have one TH at the moment.

The problem with giving Deccie the summer tour as i see it dave, is that if he gets a win against NZ then he will be given a new tenure.

I would like to see John Kirwan be given the job in all fairness.

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm with you there stand.

A lot of rugby to be played before the tour to nz but I would want to see

1) Ryan starting
2) tuohy or toner on the bench (both new age locks)
3) sexton continuing at 10
4) new centre partnership McFadden-cave or another depending on rugby between now and then
5) ferris-sob-pom tried
6) new props blooded at some stage (baabaas)
7) reinvention of attacking play
8) players to be on the same wavelength (Leinster attackin style)
9) new attitude to winning (no underdog attitude+no sit back and defend a lead)
10) Marshall, madigan, mcallister, dom Ryan, eom, jones, Zeno, Kearney jr to be included in training squads at the least

Pete most of those players have been in the training squads for the past year.
On your other points Ryan has to start, and tuohy should be on the bench. I don't
rate toner but he should be ahead of Doc at this stage. McFadden is obviously not trusted
my the management team in the centre and I agree with them. Every match he has started
in the centre, he has made a major mistake leading to a try. I would think that there is hopefully
a good chance of seeing bod earls for the summer tour. The problem with props is well known. We have
tried using the As to develop props but there is no one there,

Yesterday was a disaster, we were on the back foot all game but some extremely poor performances made
it worse than it should have been for us. Healy was terrible and I think the toll of playing four games in a row
was too much for him, I can't remember the last time he has had to do that. Ross was being beaten in the scrum
before he went off so that was unlikely to improve with court. Ryan, Best and Sob did decently, as did Ferris.
Heaslip, Doc and Reddan were poor. I would have been screaming for Reddan to come off if Tol hadn't been on
the bench, and to be fair to him he managed to surprise me and be worse than I though he could be. Sexton did
his best but wasn't helped by those inside him or the mess at 12. Darcy has had two good games in the last year and
a half, both against Italy which shows you how poor they are. Trimble was average.

I think people are being harsh on Earls for not passing on the breaks. Throughout the tournament he has been solid in defence
but more importantly has started running with the ball in two hands and looking for support. His passing has been good, his kicking
has been solid and he has played well despite having Darcy inside him. Yesterday for the breaks he was looking to pass but for the
second one when he only had one option, he was right to hold on as the English players shot up to prevent it.

Bowe and Kearney were both, good solid and dependable as usual.

Good responses val most I agree with just a few things

McFadden is a 12 and has always played best when put there he has never been used there for Ireland and I'd hope Schmidt will replace Darcy w McFadden now. Personally I think Marshall is the future long term 12 maybe hallarahan I seem McFadden as an able player until one of the other 2 progress.

Yes those guys have been in the squad id like to see it continue and with more involvement for instance next time reddan or Murray are injured I'd want Marshall, madigan should really be pushing for 1 game on the bench IMO against nz.

I disagree re toner, I think he could do very well for us in the future. Has improved hugely this year.

Finally the point that I wrote that I wanted discussed most hasn't been talked about hugely bar by one poster

Our attitude is awful.
We shouldn't want to be underdogs.
We shouldn't want to try and defend a lead.

Does anyone else realise that that was D'Arcys seventeenth consecutive Six Nations start?

Came in against Scotland in 2009, played every match since. We all saw that performance coming. Nothing was done about it. Nothing was done to prepare an alternative.

Thats just one position. There are others. Tighthead, openside etc.

The lack of strength in depth for Ireland is apparent in that Kidney picked pretty much the same 22 for the run of four matches - Italy, France, Scotland and England.

France who had the same issue changed their 22 significantly but still finished on the same match points as Ireland. With their playing resources, they should always be finishing in the top two.

In the history of the 6N, France have won the most championships, followed by England and Wales. Ireland are a poor fourth in the second tier along with Scotland and Italy.

Irish provincial success in the European Cup is in stark contrast.

The absence of a decent scrummaging front five, and props in particular, has been an accident waiting to happen for some time. Ireland fans breathed a sigh of relief when Ross was unearthed to replace the ageing Bull, but in their hearts knew that if he came a cropper, the serious failings of old would re-emerge.

Heaslip is off his game, but is not helped in getting forward moving ball from a scrum that has been creaking for some time. He seems distracted from the game, ad one has to wonder, if he is miffed at not getting the captaincy this 6N when O'Driscoll was sidelined. Over the last 18 months, he very publicly stated his desire to take over the team, and that desire has not been met. His oft-stated insouciance to the game, not watching videos of other players, and relying on his own self-belief and prowess, and others, to get him through a match is revealing. If he isn't in charge, then his level of involvement decreases.

Kearney, on the other hand, has been in stark contrast this season. Here is a player who clearly looked in the mirror, didn't like what he saw, and gave himself a stern talking-to. He has come on in - literally - leaps and bounds this 6N and has been a delight to watch. He exudes relish for the game and the part he can play in it. He has confidence on the field, and transmits that to others.

Whatever about the absence of O'Driscoll for the team, the absence of O'Connell at second row, as leader in the pack, and of the whole team, was massive. Leaving aside their age, they remain the team's two most iconic and strongest players. They are the equivalent of Carter and McCaw, Pocock and Horwill, Dusautoir and Harinorduquy, Warburton and whoever in the Welsh team (maybe fortuitously they don't have one).

O'Leary came on as a poor third choice scrum half. Given Ireland's need to get any kind of ball from a scrum out as quickly as possible, I found myself wondering whether Peter Stringer might not have made a better fist of it.

The realisation that Darcy was not working out, and the creation of two 'five-eighths' in the backline mid way during the match -again - still points to dithering by the management. If it is to be tried, do it from the start, and plan attacks accordingly. Better that O'Gara goes off at a certain point, and Sexton shifts in one, rather than the other way around, in my view.

Any team will always be without some of its best players, and the creation of a squad that can cope with that, is what helps teams succeed. Right now, Ireland just don't have the replacements.

The tour to New Zealand will be a torrid one for the squad. Kidney - who will remain in place simply because there are no worthwhile alternatives available in the timeframe - must bring a cohort of newer players on that trip. Props, locks and centres are the critical ones in my view.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Good responses val most I agree with just a few things

McFadden is a 12 and has always played best when put there he has never been used there for Ireland and I'd hope Schmidt will replace Darcy w McFadden now. Personally I think Marshall is the future long term 12 maybe hallarahan I seem McFadden as an able player until one of the other 2 progress.

Yes those guys have been in the squad id like to see it continue and with more involvement for instance next time reddan or Murray are injured I'd want Marshall, madigan should really be pushing for 1 game on the bench IMO against nz.

I disagree re toner, I think he could do very well for us in the future. Has improved hugely this year.

Finally the point that I wrote that I wanted discussed most hasn't been talked about hugely bar by one poster

Our attitude is awful.
We shouldn't want to be underdogs.
We shouldn't want to try and defend a lead.

On McFadden I think he is best as a 12 but every game he has played in the centre for Ireland has seen him make a mistake leading to a try.
He has to be ahead of Darcy at Leinster before he will get ahead of him at Ireland, and with Doc's selection over Ryan, even that may not be
enough. Marshall and Hanrahan need a lot of gametime before they will be ready, farrell looks like he may be best suited to 12 as well but the
problem with all these players is they are a bit away from being ready for international rugby. I know that some people say if you're good
enough you're old enough but players like North, Cuthbert and Farrell are the exceptions rather than the rule. The first two are physical freaks,
yes they are young but they are huge. Farrell still tends to have trouble defensively but his centres are able to cover for him.

I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, I thought reddan was very poor yesterday, and he wasn't great against Scotland, but Tol brings
a whole new meaning to poor. Madigan against NZ won't happen and I'm not really sure if it should. Yes he has shown potential but Keatley and
Humpreys are more deserving off going on tour.

Toner has definitely improved a lot this year, and I suppose he is always going to come off unfavorably when compared to Poc. I think Ryan and
Tuohy should be a good bit ahead of him though. He should definitely tour.

On your final point, I think you are misreading Kidney's thinking on defending a lead. He has always believed that his teams should be able to soak up
pressure before being absolutely clinical with any chances t hey get. The underdog is a very Irish mindset but I think with this team, they believe they will beat anyone except New Zealand and France. During the week prior to the match, the papers where full of Irish players saying how much better than England we are. After the match players were speaking of being embarrassed by the performance and how they are much better than they showed during the six nations. The underdog thing is no longer relevant imo.

The major problem seems to be that we have a lot of players who are in poor form, players who we overrate and then players who shouldn't be there. We just don't have the strength in depth in certain positions to cope with injuries but we definitely need the management, whether its Kidney or someone new, to come up with a gameplan to work around our problems. Our major problem at the moment is that we have two players in the backs who make breaks on a consistent basis; Earls and Bowe. These two are also our most consistent finishers but the problem is that when one makes a break if the other isn't on their shoulder they've no one to pass to and even when they are supporting each other it is easy to defend against as its obvious where the ball is going.

If we are going to develop a Leinster/Ulster, or more accurately, NZ style of play we need to get our players running proper support lines. Ryan, Tuohy and POM are very good footballers that we can add to the pack if we want to play this type of game but a lot of the players we have already should be able to play this type of game. If Kidney stays, I hope he gets a top class backs coach. For NZ I'd love to see a team like Healy, Best Ross Poc Ryan Ferris POM Heaslip Murray Sexton Bod Earls Fitz Bowe Kearney and for us to try and play an attacking game against them. Yes we probably will lose but we always lose against them, at least do it in style.

The only positive was that cross field kick, if it wasn't Heaslip out there it could have been brilliant. Kidney has to go no doubt about it.

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Good responses val most I agree with just a few things

McFadden is a 12 and has always played best when put there he has never been used there for Ireland and I'd hope Schmidt will replace Darcy w McFadden now. Personally I think Marshall is the future long term 12 maybe hallarahan I seem McFadden as an able player until one of the other 2 progress.

Yes those guys have been in the squad id like to see it continue and with more involvement for instance next time reddan or Murray are injured I'd want Marshall, madigan should really be pushing for 1 game on the bench IMO against nz.

I disagree re toner, I think he could do very well for us in the future. Has improved hugely this year.

Finally the point that I wrote that I wanted discussed most hasn't been talked about hugely bar by one poster

Our attitude is awful.
We shouldn't want to be underdogs.
We shouldn't want to try and defend a lead.

On McFadden I think he is best as a 12 but every game he has played in the centre for Ireland has seen him make a mistake leading to a try.
He has to be ahead of Darcy at Leinster before he will get ahead of him at Ireland, and with Doc's selection over Ryan, even that may not be
enough. Marshall and Hanrahan need a lot of gametime before they will be ready, farrell looks like he may be best suited to 12 as well but the
problem with all these players is they are a bit away from being ready for international rugby. I know that some people say if you're good
enough you're old enough but players like North, Cuthbert and Farrell are the exceptions rather than the rule. The first two are physical freaks,
yes they are young but they are huge. Farrell still tends to have trouble defensively but his centres are able to cover for him.

I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, I thought reddan was very poor yesterday, and he wasn't great against Scotland, but Tol brings
a whole new meaning to poor. Madigan against NZ won't happen and I'm not really sure if it should. Yes he has shown potential but Keatley and
Humpreys are more deserving off going on tour.

Toner has definitely improved a lot this year, and I suppose he is always going to come off unfavorably when compared to Poc. I think Ryan and
Tuohy should be a good bit ahead of him though. He should definitely tour.

On your final point, I think you are misreading Kidney's thinking on defending a lead. He has always believed that his teams should be able to soak up
pressure before being absolutely clinical with any chances t hey get. The underdog is a very Irish mindset but I think with this team, they believe they will beat anyone except New Zealand and France. During the week prior to the match, the papers where full of Irish players saying how much better than England we are. After the match players were speaking of being embarrassed by the performance and how they are much better than they showed during the six nations. The underdog thing is no longer relevant imo.

The major problem seems to be that we have a lot of players who are in poor form, players who we overrate and then players who shouldn't be there. We just don't have the strength in depth in certain positions to cope with injuries but we definitely need the management, whether its Kidney or someone new, to come up with a gameplan to work around our problems. Our major problem at the moment is that we have two players in the backs who make breaks on a consistent basis; Earls and Bowe. These two are also our most consistent finishers but the problem is that when one makes a break if the other isn't on their shoulder they've no one to pass to and even when they are supporting each other it is easy to defend against as its obvious where the ball is going.

If we are going to develop a Leinster/Ulster, or more accurately, NZ style of play we need to get our players running proper support lines. Ryan, Tuohy and POM are very good footballers that we can add to the pack if we want to play this type of game but a lot of the players we have already should be able to play this type of game. If Kidney stays, I hope he gets a top class backs coach. For NZ I'd love to see a team like Healy, Best Ross Poc Ryan Ferris POM Heaslip Murray Sexton Bod Earls Fitz Bowe Kearney and for us to try and play an attacking game against them. Yes we probably will lose but we always lose against them, at least do it in style.

Another good post val I agree with most of that!
Again think McFadden should be played at 12 rather than 13 but has to get ahead of Darcy at Leinster

I think Marshall is great not sure why people think his passing is poor.

Agree re support lines (kearney makes the most breaks) but few support he earls and bowe. I agree that Ryan, tuohy, pom would help this no end.

Disagree re: winning attitude. We decided to stop doing what we were doing (which was besting France) and then deciding to defend. That IMO is a very ill-advised idea against the french

Thomond wrote:The only positive was that cross field kick, if it wasn't Heaslip out there it could have been brilliant. Kidney has to go no doubt about it.

+1

valjester wrote: I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, attacking game against them. .

Have to say this made me laugh. Marshall has many admirable qualities but his passing is awful and by some distance the weakest part of his game. I do worry that many put forward names that are different just for the sake of it. We need a reality check, and taking Ulster as an example, Marshall, Henry, Macklin (for at least 2/3 years) are not good enough. There are plenty of examples at the other provinces too being put forward.

Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

Geoff

i agree re Marshalls passing but it has improved. He mixes good with bad at times but the speed at which he gets the ball away has got better. He would be no worse than TOL as a 3rd choice option.

He would be better than TOL but still nowhere near good enough for International rugby.

All that tells me is that at 3, 7,9 and 12 Ireland are in a really bad place.

At present i would agree geoff but we need to look at options and not just label them as 'not good enough' and brush past them.

we dont have a natural 7 for instance but we have very good backrowers and the balance needs to be found to accomodate them. having our best ball carrier, competing on the deck throughout the tournament was ludicrous.

at 12 there are youngsters coming through and anyone who thinks that mcFadden or wallace wouldnt have been a massive improvement on D'arcy is deluded.

Things arent geat in those positions but there are some alternatives. They just arent being tried.

As I am reading through these commens I am starting to see a common pattern from most counries, we all want our coahces to a lesser or more degree bring in new blood, we also want our coaches to be more adventurous with game plans, we expect them to either expanfd the playing style and if not, we all demand new coaches.

The question is this, do you not think once these guys are appointed, due to performance clauses in their contracts they err on the side of caution and don't want to bring in a group of youngsters and induce a new gameplan as their fear of failure is curbing their visions?

Gatland has brought in youngsters at wales Biltong.
Henry did it with New Zealand bringing in Whitelock, moving kahui to wing in the RWC, Keiran Read coming through.
Lancaster is doing it for england.

These guys know they have to fight tooth and nail for the shirt. In ireland especially we have lost that to a certain extent because the coach treats the players like cats... 9 lives.

Ulstermna, ture, but when you look at Lancaster he had nothing to lose, he knew he was there short term.

any coach coaching NZ doesn't have the same problem everyone else has. The depth and competition for places makes them unique.

Gatland is perhaps more visionary than we may realise.

But lets look at most other coaches we see today.

Scottish posters are complaining, Irish posters are complaining, How lon were SA supporters complaining, how long did english posters complain, Deans had no choice becuase Australia's squad was getting old, and injuries forced him.

SA had a madman in charge though. No other nation would hire him.

Robinson and Kidney have be judged by their results.

i dont know if the italians are complaining about Brunel but he did ok. France will complain because they underacheived.

Biltong

Kidney should have had no choice. Whilst our squad age isnt a concern the age of key players in it is. It was a no brainer to start Ryan; it was a no brainer to drop D'arcy.

yet he continually failed to do it. There seems to be zero accountability for poor performance.

Standulstermen wrote:SA had a madman in charge though. No other nation would hire him.

France might!

Yeah, I was hoping NZ might.