Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

Standulstermen wrote:

Kidney should have had no choice. Whilst our squad age isnt a concern the age of key players in it is. It was a no brainer to start Ryan; it was a no brainer to drop D'arcy.

How is it a no-brainer? Ryan was involved anyway. Drop D'Arcy for who? Paddy Wallace (think he was injured at the start of the 6Ns anyway). Only other players who might be international class are injured (i.e., Luke Fitz).

Contratory to what a lot of people claim, McFadden has played most his career at outside centre or wing for Leinster and Ireland. He won most valuable player of the tournament in the Churchill Cup at outside centre.

Paddy was fit but hadnt played much rugby. Of course those calls were no brainers Sin.

Ryan had usurped DOC for Munster and performed excellently. He consistently shone when he came on. I can to some extent understand the selection of DOC and D'arce for the Wales game but after that it was apparent to anyone that neither should have started another game.

Ryan was involved but he only got a start due to injury.

similar with POM. he came in, performed admirably and is promptly dropped. So in essense it didnt matter how he did as with the injury rectified the team was already picked. That is a bad situation to be in.

It was a no brainer becaues Ryan was starting for Munster ahead of DoC and playing at a level above what DoC has shown for a long time.It was a mistake he made 3 times and would have made it 5 times if PoC hadn't been injured.

Yes Paddy Wallace should have started ahead of D'Arcy,Wallce played for Ulster on the 17th of February so while I can excuse picking D'Arcy for the Wales match that still leaves another 4 bad errors in selection.

geoff999rugby wrote:

valjester wrote: I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, attacking game against them. .

Have to say this made me laugh. Marshall has many admirable qualities but his passing is awful and by some distance the weakest part of his game. I do worry that many put forward names that are different just for the sake of it. We need a reality check, and taking Ulster as an example, Marshall, Henry, Macklin (for at least 2/3 years) are not good enough. There are plenty of examples at the other provinces too being put forward.

Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

By at least he can pass, I'm comparing his passing with TOLs. His passing isn't Marshall's greatest strength but its not the weakest part of his game. His huge problem is that he as no idea how to control a game. When a game is loose and broken up near the end of a match marshall is great to have but I would have serious reservation if he was involved with Ireland.

Ryan was starting for Munster because POC & Botha are very good scrummagers. For instance, POC pushes behind Wian/Horan for Munster but is behind Ross for Ireland. DOC was no poorer than Heislip or SOB - problem was all with the scrum and if you can't blame Court for that problem, you can't blame anyone else either for what happened yesterday.

Paddy Wallace played in the world cup warmup games against Scotland (loss) with Mcfadden & Earls against France (loss). He did nothing to convince me that he was any better than D'Arcy. He is a fine club player. At least D'Arcy has big match experience.

Sin é wrote:Ryan was starting for Munster because POC & Botha are very good scrummagers. For instance, POC pushes behind Wian/Horan for Munster but is behind Ross for Ireland. DOC was no poorer than Heislip or SOB - problem was all with the scrum and if you can't blame Court for that problem, you can't blame anyone else either for what happened yesterday.

Paddy Wallace played in the world cup warmup games against Scotland (loss) with Mcfadden & Earls against France (loss). He did nothing to convince me that he was any better than D'Arcy. He is a fine club player. At least D'Arcy has big match experience.

You wouldn't know it watching him play the last two years.

Sin

No matter what you come back with Paddy Wallace has never been as bad for ireland as D'arcy was yesterday. And it was on the cards as well.

Heaslip is another name who needs a boot up the rectum. I disagree on SOB because i thought his work rate was superb and his tackling stats were excellent. He was being asked to do a job which is completely different to anything he has previously done.

All this nonsense about picking DOC over Ryan because of what side they scrum at is nonsense. I would not blame DOC anymore than anyone else for the way the scrum went yesterday. i wouldnt blame kidney for that either to a certain extent. There arent other options at the present time in the front row. in other areas there are options but we havent tried them.

valjester wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

valjester wrote: I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, attacking game against them. .

Have to say this made me laugh. Marshall has many admirable qualities but his passing is awful and by some distance the weakest part of his game. I do worry that many put forward names that are different just for the sake of it. We need a reality check, and taking Ulster as an example, Marshall, Henry, Macklin (for at least 2/3 years) are not good enough. There are plenty of examples at the other provinces too being put forward.

Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

By at least he can pass, I'm comparing his passing with TOLs. His passing isn't Marshall's greatest strength but its not the weakest part of his game. His huge problem is that he as no idea how to control a game. When a game is loose and broken up near the end of a match marshall is great to have but I would have serious reservation if he was involved with Ireland.

Reddan & players like Marshall are always going to suffer when Ireland's scrum starts going backwards. Kidney had to take Reddan off yesterday as England were throwing him around like a rag doll. We could have done with Murray's physicality yesterday. O'Leary was unlucky with what he had to deal with.

Am I the only one who has big question marks over Bowe's & Kearney's defence? (I know they had to put in difficult shift yesterday - but they never, ever seem to get those last ditch tackles).

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

valjester wrote: I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, attacking game against them. .

Have to say this made me laugh. Marshall has many admirable qualities but his passing is awful and by some distance the weakest part of his game. I do worry that many put forward names that are different just for the sake of it. We need a reality check, and taking Ulster as an example, Marshall, Henry, Macklin (for at least 2/3 years) are not good enough. There are plenty of examples at the other provinces too being put forward.

Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

By at least he can pass, I'm comparing his passing with TOLs. His passing isn't Marshall's greatest strength but its not the weakest part of his game. His huge problem is that he as no idea how to control a game. When a game is loose and broken up near the end of a match marshall is great to have but I would have serious reservation if he was involved with Ireland.

Reddan & players like Marshall are always going to suffer when Ireland's scrum starts going backwards. Kidney had to take Reddan off yesterday as England were throwing him around like a rag doll. We could have done with Murray's physicality yesterday. O'Leary was unlucky with what he had to deal with.

Am I the only one who has big question marks over Bowe's & Kearney's defence? (I know they had to put in difficult shift yesterday - but they never, ever seem to get those last ditch tackles).

The quality of the scrum doesn't excuse Tol's sh** passing. He was just as bad under no pressure. It is unacceptable for a player in an international.

Sin é wrote:Ryan was starting for Munster because POC & Botha are very good scrummagers. For instance, POC pushes behind Wian/Horan for Munster but is behind Ross for Ireland. DOC was no poorer than Heislip or SOB - problem was all with the scrum and if you can't blame Court for that problem, you can't blame anyone else either for what happened yesterday.

Paddy Wallace played in the world cup warmup games against Scotland (loss) with Mcfadden & Earls against France (loss). He did nothing to convince me that he was any better than D'Arcy. He is a fine club player. At least D'Arcy has big match experience.

That's such a crock of bull,Ross is a very good scrummager and PoC was starting the first 3 matches so it doesn't hold up.

You say Wallace didn't do enough in two games last summer to convince you he's better than D'Arcy so why don't you try watching some matches that are a bit more up to date.If you did that you would see that Wallace has been performing well for Ulster and D'Arcy has been abysmal for Ireland.

[quote="Sin é"]

valjester wrote:
Am I the only one who has big question marks over Bowe's & Kearney's defence? (I know they had to put in difficult shift yesterday - but they never, ever seem to get those last ditch tackles).

Agree with you here especially on Kearney,it's the one glaring weakness in his game and why I feel Felix Jones will overtake him if he can get fit.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

Ahhh a Garry Owen, didn't the Irish invent that style of game?

I don't think Ireland have a god given right to win games every year, I think you have lost Bod this season, and RoG looks a shadow of his former self. I think Ireland are starting to lose their really class players now, the game breakers who could win games with a drop goal or a bit of magic, I think that's Ireland's main problem.

My thoughts on Kidney before the tournament started....

http://www.v2journal.com/declan-kidney.html

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

valjester wrote: I don't rate Marshall but at least he can pass, attacking game against them. .

Have to say this made me laugh. Marshall has many admirable qualities but his passing is awful and by some distance the weakest part of his game. I do worry that many put forward names that are different just for the sake of it. We need a reality check, and taking Ulster as an example, Marshall, Henry, Macklin (for at least 2/3 years) are not good enough. There are plenty of examples at the other provinces too being put forward.

Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

By at least he can pass, I'm comparing his passing with TOLs. His passing isn't Marshall's greatest strength but its not the weakest part of his game. His huge problem is that he as no idea how to control a game. When a game is loose and broken up near the end of a match marshall is great to have but I would have serious reservation if he was involved with Ireland.

Reddan & players like Marshall are always going to suffer when Ireland's scrum starts going backwards. Kidney had to take Reddan off yesterday as England were throwing him around like a rag doll. We could have done with Murray's physicality yesterday. O'Leary was unlucky with what he had to deal with.

Am I the only one who has big question marks over Bowe's & Kearney's defence? (I know they had to put in difficult shift yesterday - but they never, ever seem to get those last ditch tackles).

The quality of the scrum doesn't excuse Tol's sh** passing. He was just as bad under no pressure. It is unacceptable for a player in an international.

ffs, Ireland didn't have the ball enough for him to be able to pass it. If he did pass it, someone either knocked on and we had another scrum.

Sin é wrote:

ffs, Ireland didn't have the ball enough for him to be able to pass it. If he did pass it, someone either knocked on and we had another scrum.

2 of those knock ons were because his passes missed the intended target,he also kicked out on the full twice and carried the ball over the line for the scrum that led to the penalty try (this one is slightly harsh but he had more time than he realised).

He wasted our best attacking movement with a rash cross kick as well.Even if it that kick had been perfect Heaslip had to catch a very wet ball and then get past a defender who would have had him lined up.

Sorry but TOL's passing was comically bad.
Along with D'arcy our worst back.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

ffs, Ireland didn't have the ball enough for him to be able to pass it. If he did pass it, someone either knocked on and we had another scrum.

2 of those knock ons were because his passes missed the intended target,he also kicked out on the full twice and carried the ball over the line for the scrum that led to the penalty try (this one is slightly harsh but he had more time than he realised).

He wasted our best attacking movement with a rash cross kick as well.Even if it that kick had been perfect Heaslip had to catch a very wet ball and then get past a defender who would have had him lined up.

I wouldn't blame him too much for the kick, but everything else he did was a fu**ing disaster. Rog was having to either jump to catch his passes or else try and pick them off the ground. I really don't know how anyone could defend his passing, it was appalling.

he looks a shell of a player at the moment. i do not care how strong he is and what he benches in the gym. i will excuse him the crosskick to be fair as it very nearly came off and was at least an irish player trying something creative. other than that he was terrible. terrible passing and kicking.

he would be best off disappearing to France and trying to get his form back and he may get more first team opportunities than at Munster. Good luck to him if it works out.

Standulstermen wrote:Paddy was fit but hadnt played much rugby. Of course those calls were no brainers Sin.

Ryan had usurped DOC for Munster and performed excellently. He consistently shone when he came on. I can to some extent understand the selection of DOC and D'arce for the Wales game but after that it was apparent to anyone that neither should have started another game.

Ryan was involved but he only got a start due to injury.

similar with POM. he came in, performed admirably and is promptly dropped. So in essense it didnt matter how he did as with the injury rectified the team was already picked. That is a bad situation to be in.

DOC would be starting for most other teams - it just happens that Munster have 3 international locks. Its a horses for courses rotation system as far as I can see (with POC always starting when fit).

I don't know who you proposed to bring in instead of DOC, bearing in mind that POC was injured and DRyan relatively inexperienced (and he did very well).

POM did fine, but I think it was the right call starting O'Brien bearing in mind that SOB was coming back from being ill and it was better to find out how long he could last the pace, rather than bringing him on and he wasn't up to it.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ryan was starting for Munster because POC & Botha are very good scrummagers. For instance, POC pushes behind Wian/Horan for Munster but is behind Ross for Ireland. DOC was no poorer than Heislip or SOB - problem was all with the scrum and if you can't blame Court for that problem, you can't blame anyone else either for what happened yesterday.

Paddy Wallace played in the world cup warmup games against Scotland (loss) with Mcfadden & Earls against France (loss). He did nothing to convince me that he was any better than D'Arcy. He is a fine club player. At least D'Arcy has big match experience.

That's such a crock of bull,Ross is a very good scrummager and PoC was starting the first 3 matches so it doesn't hold up.

You say Wallace didn't do enough in two games last summer to convince you he's better than D'Arcy so why don't you try watching some matches that are a bit more up to date.If you did that you would see that Wallace has been performing well for Ulster and D'Arcy has been abysmal for Ireland.

Ross is a fine scrummager with Nathan Hines & shortly presumably, Brad Thorn pushing behind him.

Paddy Wallace is 30+ - he has played well for Ulster on many occasions over the last 10 years. That doesn't make him an international standard centre though. Don't forget that in crucial games Paddy Wallace has fecked up badly and nearly cost us bigtime. Temperment (particularly when the chips are down) is important.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:Ryan was starting for Munster because POC & Botha are very good scrummagers. For instance, POC pushes behind Wian/Horan for Munster but is behind Ross for Ireland. DOC was no poorer than Heislip or SOB - problem was all with the scrum and if you can't blame Court for that problem, you can't blame anyone else either for what happened yesterday.

Paddy Wallace played in the world cup warmup games against Scotland (loss) with Mcfadden & Earls against France (loss). He did nothing to convince me that he was any better than D'Arcy. He is a fine club player. At least D'Arcy has big match experience.

That's such a crock of bull,Ross is a very good scrummager and PoC was starting the first 3 matches so it doesn't hold up.

You say Wallace didn't do enough in two games last summer to convince you he's better than D'Arcy so why don't you try watching some matches that are a bit more up to date.If you did that you would see that Wallace has been performing well for Ulster and D'Arcy has been abysmal for Ireland.

Ross is a fine scrummager with Nathan Hines & shortly presumably, Brad Thorn pushing behind him.

Paddy Wallace is 30+ - he has played well for Ulster on many occasions over the last 10 years. That doesn't make him an international standard centre though. Don't forget that in crucial games Paddy Wallace has fecked up badly and nearly cost us bigtime. Temperment (particularly when the chips are down) is important.

What crucial games?Give me more than one example please as I can give you 3 years worth of examples with D'Arcy not being up to it.

So Ross can't scrum with Toner,Browne,Cullen or McLaughlin behind him?Why then has Leinsters scrum not disintegrated this season?

I don't really want to get bogged down in the nuts and bolts of yesterdays game. We were humiliated on the scoreboard. Our scrum was man-shamed. Lots of players played poorly.

What I'm trying to say is that ever since the tackle laws changed, Kidney has been the wrong man for the job. He was perfect for the kick and chase game of 2009. He's always excelled at coaching a team to play that way. But the laws have (thankfully) left that style behind. In the modern game the attacking team is given the advantage. The best way to defend is to keep attacking. Kidney's style of rugby is redundant, unfortunately for him. Not even Munster play that way anymore.

In 2009 South Africa and Ireland were dominating the test stage. The Bulls were champions of Super Rugby and Munster were HC champions. It's obvious what type of rugby was winning rugby back then. Today The Reds are Super Rugby Champions, Leinster are HC champions, Australia are Tri-Nations champions, New Zealand are RWC champions, and Wales are 6 Nations Champions. Again, it's obvious what type of rugby is winning rugby today. And it's not Kidney's way. Keeping him on is a waste of time.

It's obvious which way the game is going. It's also obvious that attacking backs-oriented rugby was something we were particularly good at in the 00's, when we actually committed ourselves to playing that way.And that style of rugby is being rewarded more than ever now. And any future law changes will surely just push the game more in that direction. And the neanderthal rugby we play now is completely unsuited to us. Sure, we are quite good under the high ball. But our pack is never going to beat up the top international packs. Why is our tactic to run through the opposition when the opposition is bigger than us and we have nimble fast backs like Earls, Fitzgerald, Bowe, Jones, Kearney, McFadden etc?

Someone mentioned before that the French destroyed the Aussie scrum, but the Aussie's thrashed them. I know that was a unique crazy game. But I'm using it to make a point. The Aussie's are similar to us. They're generally quite weak scrummagers, they don't have the biggest pack, they can't count on overpowering opposition packs. So they play to their strengths. They, along with the Kiwi's are the most innovative in the world when it comes to attacking play.

We need an innovative, attack-oriented coaching team to change our mindset and the way we our playing. I'm looking towards New Zealand because the Kiwi coaches have done such an amazing job at Leinster. The fast rucking, attacking game of New Zealand is something I think suits the Irish and plays to their strengths.

The sad thing is Kidney and the players are probably working the a**'s off to make it work. But no matter how hard they try they're failing over and over because the central plan is completely wrong, and the coaching team is going against the grain of the entire direction of modern rugby. They're pi**ing in the wind if they think they're gonna be successful playing the type of rugby that the IRB is currently in the proccess of trying to stamp out.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Paddy was fit but hadnt played much rugby. Of course those calls were no brainers Sin.

Ryan had usurped DOC for Munster and performed excellently. He consistently shone when he came on. I can to some extent understand the selection of DOC and D'arce for the Wales game but after that it was apparent to anyone that neither should have started another game.

Ryan was involved but he only got a start due to injury.

similar with POM. he came in, performed admirably and is promptly dropped. So in essense it didnt matter how he did as with the injury rectified the team was already picked. That is a bad situation to be in.

DOC would be starting for most other teams - it just happens that Munster have 3 international locks. Its a horses for courses rotation system as far as I can see (with POC always starting when fit).

He wont get in my Ulster team - I'd take both Muller and Tuohy over DOC

Sin é wrote: Paddy Wallace is 30+ - he has played well for Ulster on many occasions over the last 10 years. That doesn't make him an international standard centre though. Don't forget that in crucial games Paddy Wallace has fecked up badly and nearly cost us bigtime. Temperment (particularly when the chips are down) is important.

Really what games are those.

Wallace has never played as badly for Ireland as D'Arcy did yesterday. At the moment Wallace is comfortably the better player of the two. I said before the match I had D'Arcy as 4th choice at 12 for Ireland. After that I think I'll make that 6th choice. He should be nowhere near the Ireland set up - his days should be over and would be except for us having a coach who takes conservatism to a whole new level.

Feckless Rogue thank you one of the most perceptive posts I have read this year

Yeah that was good wasn't it.

Same old, same old... Wallace versus D'Arcy. Temperament.

I'm actually okay if you want to criticise Wallaces temperament at test level. But don't pretend D'Arcy has it either. Even if you think Wallace is a sub-par option for Ireland, don't pretend that D'Arcy is good enough to be an international centre.

And let's agree the best option is to look to a new generation of centres and see if they have 'it'.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:DOC would be starting for most other teams - it just happens that Munster have 3 international locks. Its a horses for courses rotation system as far as I can see (with POC always starting when fit).

He wont get in my Ulster team - I'd take both Muller and Tuohy over DOC

It's been a longish time since O'Callaghan looked really good at HC or Pro 12 level.

Yes Feckless, my sentiments exactly.

I hate witch-hunts and dont want it to turn into one. Just want the IRFU to wake up and do their job. Declan Kidney is a gentleman and a Great in European Rugby. No one can ever take that away from him.

But, I hope he and the IRFU realise, that this relationship has to end, for the benefit of Irish Rugby. Like to see it happen gracefully. If possible.

In Declan's defence - for this campaign anyway: He had no backs coach, no attack coach, no proper fitness and conditioning coach, 4 energy-sapping, high-level games in a row. All totally outside his control. So factor all that in, before we condemn him for this campaign alone.

But we all know it goes deeper than that. Enough already said.

It is way past time for the bozos at the IRFU to really earn their shekels now. Openly and honestly review the situation and make clear-cut, long-term, intelligent decisions - to correct it. Press reset, scour the World for a new elite coaching team. Push the boat out financially and dont appoint in haste. Consult the best brains in Irish rugby and beyond. Conor O Shea for one. Alan Quinlan another. POC & BOD too. They are all honest men and like us - they want the best.

I dont care if it takes a year to do so. Kidney is there till 2013. Lets not kid ourselves here. But the IRFU must strongly insist, that during this time, he must, repeat, must - blood new players and take the initial pain. It would greatly help the next coach to land on his feet running. This is not about individual personalities or provincial differences. This our country representing us here. We are all hurting today. We are a passionate and proud race. And we all want the same thing. A successful Irish Rugby team way into the future.

No more short-term fixes. They dont work.

I have an idea for head-coach. The best and most successful coach from these Isles. Ye may not like it but I think it would be inspirational...


Dean Richards. A man on a mission to prove himself again, after the debacle that was Bloodgate. No better man. Brilliant coach, his own man and he would shake up the farts at the IRFU too.
After a year at Falcons, he would be ripe for picking. Just an idea to start the ball rolling. Who are your preferred coaches/team?

Let's not spout any more negativity. Stop attacking and denegrating individual players. Lets have constructive ideas and some positive contributions on our future. Be they the coaching team, or the players we believe should be brought on board. It's a waste of time & energy living in the past and moaning about it. Something we are World Class at.


Believe.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Paddy Wallace is 30+ - he has played well for Ulster on many occasions over the last 10 years. That doesn't make him an international standard centre though. Don't forget that in crucial games Paddy Wallace has fecked up badly and nearly cost us bigtime. Temperment (particularly when the chips are down) is important.

Really what games are those.

Wallace has never played as badly for Ireland as D'Arcy did yesterday. At the moment Wallace is comfortably the better player of the two. I said before the match I had D'Arcy as 4th choice at 12 for Ireland. After that I think I'll make that 6th choice. He should be nowhere near the Ireland set up - his days should be over and would be except for us having a coach who takes conservatism to a whole new level.

1) Grand slam final game. Giving away a penalty in the last minute.
2) Wrong option against Wales last year (trying to be a hero and keeping the ball to himself).

Last time he played international rugby was for world cup (which is what matters, not club level). If you compare D'Arcy & Wallace club game, D'Arcy has been holding his own as first choice for the Best Club in Europe Leinsterfans.

You expect Kidney to know that D'Arcy was going to have his worst day in an Ireland jersey beforehand.

geoff999rugby wrote:Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

Yes Geoff, and what should we do about it? How can we have depth if one province is top heavy in the talent for specific positions? Look at O'Brien not playing 8. They force him into another position effectivly weakening depth whilst up at ulster we have an NIQ 8. Same with scrum-halfs at Munster and Leinster only getting a handful of games each whilst Ulster have an NIQ. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Does any other country switch players around positionally for a short term advantage as much as Ireland? And in doing so reduce depth in one area and prevent young talent having a chance in another area? I think personally the IRFU needs to provide big incentives for higher class players to move to Connacht, or a province who are weak in that positional area. The higher tier of irish players all need to be practicing their trade week in week out, not warming benches. Clubs, understandably will do whatever it takes for club success, the IRFU have the power to improve the talent distribution which is the only way Ireland will become a world force.

And forcing a quota of Paddy Wallace at 10 when he's actually a 12 is an absolute idiotic way to run a national team!

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Paddy Wallace is 30+ - he has played well for Ulster on many occasions over the last 10 years. That doesn't make him an international standard centre though. Don't forget that in crucial games Paddy Wallace has fecked up badly and nearly cost us bigtime. Temperment (particularly when the chips are down) is important.

Really what games are those.

Wallace has never played as badly for Ireland as D'Arcy did yesterday. At the moment Wallace is comfortably the better player of the two. I said before the match I had D'Arcy as 4th choice at 12 for Ireland. After that I think I'll make that 6th choice. He should be nowhere near the Ireland set up - his days should be over and would be except for us having a coach who takes conservatism to a whole new level.

1) Grand slam final game. Giving away a penalty in the last minute.
2) Wrong option against Wales last year (trying to be a smart and not get bundled into touch ending our chances indefinatly).

Last time he played international rugby was for world cup (which is what matters, not club level). If you compare D'Arcy & Wallace club game, D'Arcy has been holding his own as first choice for the Best Club in Europe Leinsterfans.

You expect Kidney to know that D'Arcy was going to have his worst day in an Ireland jersey beforehand.

Fixed that for you there Sin

Sin é wrote:You expect Kidney to know that D'Arcy was going to have his worst day in an Ireland jersey beforehand.

Er, he's played 17 Six Nations games in a row and he's been poor for about 10 of them. He was just as bad as he was yesterday at some points in the 2011 6N. So I'm worried if you were surprised at his performance because I guarantee nobody else was

But there are Irish youngsters playing well for the provinces. There's even the odd gem at Connacht. They're winning the Pro 12 every year and performing in the HC. And the Welsh youngsters that they beat every week won a Grand Slam while the Irish youngsters were watching it on telly.

Given that it's the 1st year in a new RWC cycle, and given that the fixture list meant a title was harder to achieve this year, and given that we had to play 4 games on the trot, there could have been more experimentation. Kidney doesn't have to take his cue from Schmidt or McLaughlin. The midfield is clearly a weakness. He could have tried McFadden or Spence or Wallace or O'Malley or Griffen or Fitzgerald or Bowe or even Hanrahan or Kearney Jr. in the center. Maybe they all would have been useless. But we'll never know.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Paddy was fit but hadnt played much rugby. Of course those calls were no brainers Sin.

Ryan had usurped DOC for Munster and performed excellently. He consistently shone when he came on. I can to some extent understand the selection of DOC and D'arce for the Wales game but after that it was apparent to anyone that neither should have started another game.

Ryan was involved but he only got a start due to injury.

similar with POM. he came in, performed admirably and is promptly dropped. So in essense it didnt matter how he did as with the injury rectified the team was already picked. That is a bad situation to be in.

DOC would be starting for most other teams - it just happens that Munster have 3 international locks. Its a horses for courses rotation system as far as I can see (with POC always starting when fit).

He wont get in my Ulster team - I'd take both Muller and Tuohy over DOC

Thats Ulster for you Apart from being too short for an international lock, Tuohy can also be inconsistent.

Sin e D'Arcy has has played some many awful games in the last 2 years for Ireland I have lost count.

If the two incidents you mention are the best you can come up for Wallace then I think you have totally failed to make your point. On neither occassion did Wallace play as badly as has been the norm for D'Arcy.

By the same token ROG should never play international rugby again after his brain fart on the Lions tour. Every play makes individual mistake but it is the geenral tenor of their game you look for. Wallace has great hands and is up for it, D'arcy by contrast is a man in melt down mentally.

Couple of things i would like to see at Ulster and Leinster. (As geoff has pointed out there is no guarantee these will all be successful)

-Ulster start the Pro12 with Paddy Jackson between Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace
or
-Ulster start the Pro12 with Luke Marshall at 12 with Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace inside.
-Leinster make Fergus McFadden there undisputed 1st choice 12.
-Jamie Hagan to start the Pro12 at TH for Leinster.
-Paddy McAllister to start at LH for Ulster in the Rabo. Potentially we could alternate with Macklin getting decent gametime too (or Fitzpatrick for that matter)

Tuohy might be inconsistant but at least he offers something extra.

DOC's days are over - he is becoming the Steve Borthwick of Irish rugby, keeps getting picked but no one can remember why.

clivemcl wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Also we are screwed internationally if promising players dont get game time in their best positions - Taking Leinster as an example. Hagan is not developing because he doesnt play, McFadden's best position is 12 he doesn't play 12, SOB's best position is 8 he doesn't play 8.

The reality is we have a team that is pretty good - Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Earls, BOD, Cave, Bowe, Kearney imv.

Howver for at leat 10 of those positions we fall off a cliff quality wise if the player is not available. Our strength in depth is awful

Yes Geoff, and what should we do about it? How can we have depth if one province is top heavy in the talent for specific positions? Look at O'Brien not playing 8. They force him into another position effectivly weakening depth whilst up at ulster we have an NIQ 8. Same with scrum-halfs at Munster and Leinster only getting a handful of games each whilst Ulster have an NIQ. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Does any other country switch players around positionally for a short term advantage as much as Ireland? And in doing so reduce depth in one area and prevent young talent having a chance in another area? I think personally the IRFU needs to provide big incentives for higher class players to move to Connacht, or a province who are weak in that positional area. The higher tier of irish players all need to be practicing their trade week in week out, not warming benches. Clubs, understandably will do whatever it takes for club success, the IRFU have the power to improve the talent distribution which is the only way Ireland will become a world force.

And forcing a quota of Paddy Wallace at 10 when he's actually a 12 is an absolute idiotic way to run a national team!

Wow, I never knew Isaac Boss, Eoin Reddan or Mike Ross came through the Leinster academy.

Why wasn't Boss kept at Ulster with Pienaar playing 10? Pienaar has said in interview he never stipulated that he was to play 9 only. He said he was happy to play either 9 or 10.

Any of you guys know why Sean Dougal (openside on his way to Munster from Rotherham next season) was not kept by Ulster?

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Given that it's the 1st year in a new RWC cycle, and given that the fixture list meant a title was harder to achieve this year, and given that we had to play 4 games on the trot, there could have been more experimentation. Kidney doesn't have to take his cue from Schmidt or McLaughlin.

so, you think most people wouldn't mind being hammered in twickers if tommy bowe/spece was in the centre

geoff999rugby wrote:Tuohy might be inconsistant but at least he offers something extra.

DOC's days are over - he is becoming the Steve Borthwick of Irish rugby, keeps getting picked but no one can remember why.

Do you think it was a good time to pair him with Ryan for the first time in an international ? At least DOC and Ryan have some sort of a partnership going (and before you start blaming kidney for this, Tuohy was injured coming into the world cup last year and missed out on the Ireland preseason).

geoff999rugby wrote:Sin e D'Arcy has has played some many awful games in the last 2 years for Ireland I have lost count.

If the two incidents you mention are the best you can come up for Wallace then I think you have totally failed to make your point. On neither occassion did Wallace play as badly as has been the norm for D'Arcy.

By the same token ROG should never play international rugby again after his brain fart on the Lions tour. Every play makes individual mistake but it is the geenral tenor of their game you look for. Wallace has great hands and is up for it, D'arcy by contrast is a man in melt down mentally.

Paddy wallace hasn't had the same opportunity to make a balls of it. I can only recall him ever having one good game for Ireland (Nz a couple of years ago). I can recall lots of pure awful days though.

Boss left because he could get more money at Leisnter after his central contract terminated and because he didn't want to fight for a place against another SH.

Bit ironic given Reddan was at Leinster. Boss left Ulster, Ulster did not kick him out.

Sean Dougal gor injured in 2008 which kept him out of the game for 2 years. After regaining fitness he joing Rotherham

Paddy Wallace has played 29 times for Ireland - won a couple of MOTM awards in that time as well.

In 29 appearance he has never sunk to the depths D'Arcy reached yesterday.

geoff999rugby wrote:Paddy Wallace has played 29 times for Ireland - won a couple of MOTM awards in that time as well.

In 29 appearance he has never sunk to the depths D'Arcy reached yesterday.

Some of those 'appearances' were of the 5 minute variety (16 of them to be exact).

He got MOTM against the Pacific Island as far as I can remember. What other games did he get MOTM?

(wallace has played a total of 1198 mins of internation rugby).

edit: which works out at 15 games of 80 mins. Less than what D'Arcy has played in the last 2 years.

geoff999rugby wrote:

By the same token ROG should never play international rugby again after his brain fart on the Lions tour. Every play makes individual mistake but it is the geenral tenor of their game you look for. Wallace has great hands and is up for it, D'arcy by contrast is a man in melt down mentally.

At least ROG had an excuse for his so called 'brain fart' (pity tommy bowe wasn't tuned in). He had just got a heavy knock to the head.

Standulstermen wrote:Couple of things i would like to see at Ulster and Leinster. (As geoff has pointed out there is no guarantee these will all be successful)

-Ulster start the Pro12 with Paddy Jackson between Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace
or
-Ulster start the Pro12 with Luke Marshall at 12 with Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace inside.
-Leinster make Fergus McFadden there undisputed 1st choice 12.
-Jamie Hagan to start the Pro12 at TH for Leinster.
-Paddy McAllister to start at LH for Ulster in the Rabo. Potentially we could alternate with Macklin getting decent gametime too (or Fitzpatrick for that matter)

Good post, midst the pointless, provincially-biased, merry-go-round debates. Yes. That would be a start. Must start with the provinces. Also, if players cant get game time at home - encourage them to go to France and England to make men of them. Take em back for Ireland if they are good enough. Its how we got Ross. The most important player in the side.

No more International bias for Irish players abroad.

Sin é wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Tuohy might be inconsistant but at least he offers something extra.

DOC's days are over - he is becoming the Steve Borthwick of Irish rugby, keeps getting picked but no one can remember why.

Do you think it was a good time to pair him with Ryan for the first time in an international ? At least DOC and Ryan have some sort of a partnership going (and before you start blaming kidney for this, Tuohy was injured coming into the world cup last year and missed out on the Ireland preseason).

That's why a good time to play Ryan was at the start of this campaign before POC got injured. Kidney got it wrong about this let's face it, no point in defending him on second row selections in general. Or for some other selections come to think of it.

Sin

I could have taken you up wrong but are you seriously blaming tommy Bowe for ROG taking out Du Preez in the air during the 2nd lions test?

Gibson wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Couple of things i would like to see at Ulster and Leinster. (As geoff has pointed out there is no guarantee these will all be successful)

-Ulster start the Pro12 with Paddy Jackson between Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace
or
-Ulster start the Pro12 with Luke Marshall at 12 with Ruan Pienaar and Paddy Wallace inside.
-Leinster make Fergus McFadden there undisputed 1st choice 12.
-Jamie Hagan to start the Pro12 at TH for Leinster.
-Paddy McAllister to start at LH for Ulster in the Rabo. Potentially we could alternate with Macklin getting decent gametime too (or Fitzpatrick for that matter)

Good post, midst the pointless, provincially-biased, merry-go-round debates. Yes. That would be a start. Must start with the provinces. Also, if players cant get game time at home - encourage them to go to France and England to make men of them. Take em back for Ireland if they are good enough. Its how we got Ross. The most important player in the side.

No more International bias for Irish players abroad.

Have to agree with both of you as well, especially with regards to Hagan. Kidney should have used his apparent influence to either have Hagan starting more for Leinster, or to have him go to Connaucht or further afield. Unfortunately heads have instead been buried in the sand with regards to TH.