Kidney's record as Irish coach

First topic message reminder :

2009: 5 wins
2010: 3 wins
2011: 3 wins
2012: 2 wins

We're getting progressively worse. For 2 years Kidney's been criticized for apparently having no gameplan. But this year and today particularly we have seen a gameplan emerge. And unfortunately it's what we all knew was all Kidney knew. Kick the ball up in the air and chase it. And that's it.

At the same time the Irish provinces are tearing teams apart with the best attacking rugby in Europe. Kidney is way out of his depth at this level, and is making Ireland a lot less than the sum of their parts. Which is the opposite of what a coach should do. Meanwhile Leinster are playing like the All Blacks. Why?

Joe Schmidt
Jono Gibbes
Greg Feek
and previously Kurt McQuilkin

great post fly nail on head as always. if he does not show any evidence of this throughout the NZ tour it will be time for a change. He must now get an attack coach and accept that 10 man rugby with a dodgy set piece is not going to get us into the top 5 in the world and challenging for 6 nations, where i feel we should be.

Kidney i feel was reluctant to experiment at all in the 6 nations straight on the back of the world cup without the luxury of Autumn internationals. While i can understand this in one way it did blow up in his face with just 2 wins. A jaded team with no attack coach played like one. The calling off of the France game left us with a vicious schedule. I hoped we would make a number of selective changes to keep things fresh like in the Grand Slam year but for some reason he did not do it. Would our front 5 have been beasted to the same extent as Saturday if they had not played 4 straight weeks of gruelling rugby. I personally dont think so.

If he does not recognize the need for a backs coach and persists with the same players v Baa Baas and in NZ tour with no new faces he can pack his bags. If we recruit a backs coach before Baa Baas game and he trys things in NZ and we produce some decent performances and dont get destroyed playing some good rugby he will get a stay of execution from me. We shall see in the coming months

As an aside I think Declan Kidney is a thoroughly decent man and rightly a Munster legend but the last 18 months have not been good enough.

dublin_dave wrote:
As an aside I think Declan Kidney is a thoroughly decent man and rightly a Munster legend.

I agree with that entirely. He gave Provincial rugby in this country balls - for want of a more family friendly analogy! I roared for Munster every bit as strongly as I did for Leinster because Kidney and his Munster side epitomised us as a Nation every bit as much as it gave pride to the Province itself. I like the man, I like his personality and I only wish he was having success with this Irish team. But time isn't stopping and he isn't proving to be the answer.

The Fly in the Ointment, on the club to international coach switch:


International isn't more stressful or difficult it's just that the difficulties have a different emphasis. Not a step up, as some often suggest here, but a step over.


Man.

i've made a poll to see how people feel about Kidney and the future.

https://www.606v2.com/t26331-ireland-coaching-position-open-poll-and-discussion#1069617

Gibson wrote:The Fly in the Ointment, on the club to international coach switch:


International isn't more stressful or difficult it's just that the difficulties have a different emphasis. Not a step up, as some often suggest here, but a step over.


Man.

Might we ask your credentials to make that statement fly...or is it more pie in the sky stuff

DOD wrote:

Gibson wrote:The Fly in the Ointment, on the club to international coach switch:


International isn't more stressful or difficult it's just that the difficulties have a different emphasis. Not a step up, as some often suggest here, but a step over.


Man.

Might we ask your credentials to make that statement fly...or is it more pie in the sky stuff

Ireland for the Irish and Coaches from the People! Remember our slogan DOD. We'll do this if we stand together! I'll be out around the Dail with my poster at the weekend. Hope I get a good crowd.

My credentials is logic by the way. And when people question my opinions I usually just repeat them for effect.

International isn't more stressful or difficult it's just that the difficulties have a different emphasis. Not a step up, as some often suggest here, but a step over.

As true now as the moment I wrote it.

I love this. I like this game.

Step over?
That ability to - transfer all your proven club, or provincial qualities - to a higher level. FAILED. I knew it from the start.
That ability to - develop and encourage all the obvious young talent growing around you. FAILED. Lived on injuries
That ability to - develop a younger squad, that will grow stronger for 4 or 5 years. FAILED. Lived on injuries.
That ability to - see outside the box and change things when they are blatantly not working. FAILED. Really badly.
That ability to - after 3 or 4 years, formulate a game plan... or two - to enable this side to play to its optimum - no matter what the opposition. FAILED. Abysmally.
That ability (as in his remit) - to get Ireland to another 6-N Championship.PASS. With EOS's hyped up team, playing the ugliest 6-N rugby ever. D-.
That ability (as in his remit) - to get Ireland to the SF of a RWC. FAILED (and with the easiest ever route, ever to do it in. Ever.) I will always be adverse to him for that. No cajones at a key time. He failed.
That ability (as in his own conscience) - to graciously leave, when you have completely phhoked it all up. FAILING.

Mark Deccies report card on that lot.
I rest my case.

Change the needle on the gramaphone player lads....its the only thing phooked around here.

I dramatically changed! ...you've convinced me. Irish all the way from here on in.

SecretFly wrote:I dramatically changed! ...you've convinced me. Irish all the way from here on in.

Yawn...where did I ever say the headcoach has to be Irish...my preference is for an Irish coach and not for a foreign coach because he says "fish and chips" in a funny accent.

It's yawning stuff now that I've changed tack, DOD.

If I kept it up for long enough you'd become a passionate champion of going looking down under for an appropriate man to do the job. I, and a few others, say white, you say black. That's all this show is. Black verses White.

I would say Red...wrong again Fly...

Being wrong is educational. I embrace it. If only that attitude was universal in these parts.

Thanks for the colour tip, although I'd seriously never have guessed Red. That did throw me, I have to admit

Gibson wrote:
That ability to - develop and encourage all the obvious young talent growing around you. FAILED. Lived on injuries

Interesting comment there gibbo. I looked up the difference between the Leinster teams that won the HCup in '09 & '11.

The changes between the two starting teams (6) were down to retirements (Chris whittaker, Jackman, Mal) or moving onto another club - Stan Wright & Rocky Elsom.

Leinster would have played about 50+ games in that time.

Ireland has had 9 changes between the teams that were involved in the '09 grand slam and this year's 6 nations and would play on average about 10 internationals a year.

Actually sin 14 of the 22 from the last 6nations game in 2010 were the same as finished in this years. That's not including POC, BOD, Wallace being injured although in fairness that also means Murray would have been in.

So 6 changes to a squad in 2 seasons isn't a lot when you consider that we have regressed in that time from 3 wins to 2 wins

SecretFly wrote:Being wrong is educational. I embrace it. If only that attitude was universal in these parts.

Thanks for the colour tip, although I'd seriously never have guessed Red. That did throw me, I have to admit

Just to answer these Gibbo

Gibson wrote:I love this. I like this game.

Step over?
That ability to - transfer all your proven club, or provincial qualities - to a higher level. FAILED. I knew it from the start.
Ireland did win a 6N GS under him so he did well at the start. I know it was an EOS side but he did what EOS could'nt so not a FAIL in my eyesThat ability to - develop and encourage all the obvious young talent growing around you. FAILED. Lived on injuries
Lived on injuries, hhmm. I will give you that but its the main way that young talent get into senior sides. This is not exactly a Kidney problem aloneThat ability to - develop a younger squad, that will grow stronger for 4 or 5 years. FAILED. Lived on injuries.
Living on the injuries as you say he has, there is some young talent in the team now but he just could not get them working together.That ability to - see outside the box and change things when they are blatantly not working. FAILED. Really badly.
Absolutely spot on here, failed to see what the rest of us were seeing and reverted back to like when things were not working.
That ability to - after 3 or 4 years, formulate a game plan... or two - to enable this side to play to its optimum - no matter what the opposition. FAILED. Abysmally.
He had his gameplans and they worked to a certain extent but he failed in getting the team to continually follow them.
That ability (as in his remit) - to get Ireland to another 6-N Championship.PASS. With EOS's hyped up team, playing the ugliest 6-N rugby ever. D-.
I dont know, i thought that Ireland played some goos rugby under him, if somewhat sporadically. I would argue that it was the ugliest rugby ever.
That ability (as in his remit) - to get Ireland to the SF of a RWC. FAILED (and with the easiest ever route, ever to do it in. Ever.) I will always be adverse to him for that. No cajones at a key time. He failed.
Easiest route ever? Coming out of a tough group beating the Aussies is not easy only to lose to a better Welsh team at the QF. The route only appeared to be easy due to Ireland beating the Aussies so your being very harsh here.
That ability (as in his own conscience) - to graciously leave, when you have completely phhoked it all up. FAILING.
He obviously feels that he still has alot to offer this Irish team so i cant blame him for not leaving. I would like him to step down but i cant blame him for wanting to put things right.
Mark Deccies report card on that lot.
I rest my case.

All in all Gibbo, i understand where you are coming from and your frustrations but lets keep things in perspective a bit. Declan Kidney is a very good coach who has failed to adjust his style to match todays game. He is not the right coach for Irelands players but he is not a bad one either. If he went back to Munster, and coached them the way he knows, then Munster will be successfull under him. He just does not have what it takes to make the Irish team a great team unfortunately.

Standulstermen wrote:Actually sin 14 of the 22 from the last 6nations game in 2010 were the same as finished in this years. That's not including POC, BOD, Wallace being injured although in fairness that also means Murray would have been in.

So 6 changes to a squad in 2 seasons isn't a lot when you consider that we have regressed in that time from 3 wins to 2 wins

So, you think it would be a runner to change your team completely in the equivalent of about half a club season (i.e., over about 10 games).

Worked for England and has worked when Wales needed to bring in fresh blood.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Actually sin 14 of the 22 from the last 6nations game in 2010 were the same as finished in this years. That's not including POC, BOD, Wallace being injured although in fairness that also means Murray would have been in.

So 6 changes to a squad in 2 seasons isn't a lot when you consider that we have regressed in that time from 3 wins to 2 wins

So, you think it would be a runner to change your team completely in the equivalent of about half a club season (i.e., over about 10 games).

The problem Sin é is that at International level the urge is always to play 'best' players whilst at club level the requirement is to often play 'lesser' players - so that the machine doesn't stagnate and you have players you can trust ready to take up the pressure in following years - to keep the club on top. Balance between considered 'best' players and 'lesser' players.

At International we always hear that the coach MUST choose the 'best' players at his disposal. He doesn't have the leisure to put in 'lesser' players for educational pusposes as games are too important. Well, it's an agrument but it doesn't hold water because it's a policy that lends itself to what Ireland constantly suffer from more than most International sides - stagnation, and then clunky renewal with quick fill-in players with no experince built up but necessary because of injury/retirement etc. Ireland has to give time for educating players at the senior level coal face so that a real squad develops that will allow us to change names without changing quality.

Kidney may well be part of the problem but he isn't the whole of the problem

Corbisiero's presence on the English team - also Doran-Jones at Northampton - and hey ho someone somewhere might wake up to what some of the overall policies are doing to Irish rugby

G Thornley's article today touched on this point - also the slavish adherence to the academies/under-age etc route - Hayes and Ross apparently conformed to neither apparently (and I assume same applies to Hayes' brother) -

All of these things restrict the playing pool and ultimately the mind-set of the coaching staff.

Whatever the merits of the current set up you have to admit Ireland was left standing in the selection/coaching stakes by Wales and England

Croyman wrote:

Whatever the merits of the current set up you have to admit Ireland was left standing in the selection/coaching stakes by Wales and England

That's Kidney and his coaches again so................!

This is like a treasure map of an island and a buried box full of gold and silver; but the dotted line is going everywhichway around that island and always arrives back at the start rather than up where the treasure box is buried.

It ain't all Kidney's fault................................ (around the island).......................and so it's all Kidney's fault

Hmmm

Working through your logical process

--- not all the blame on Selection can be placed on Kidney - the Irish rugby establishment follows certain self imposed "rules" - OK - from then on any blame is completely directed at the coaches

So how do I rate Kidney (given I can't say I've spent a lot of time analysing each game)

Selection from what is "available" under IRFU guidelines - - - 7 out of 10
good points include - POM and DR got game time and performed well(decent selections)
bad points - back up SH - P Marshall should have had more visibility and no Dan Tuohy ?? - inside centre ?? problem has been there for a while now -

Coaching Ability ---------------------------------------------------- 6 out of 10

Key mistakes this Championship

Most avoidable mistake - defence against the Welsh backs

Worst but had to avoid problem) -------- Scrum v England

Overall - good v bad teams - not able to win v better teams - seems to learn from mistakes but lately not ahead of the game others have got better

Should he be got rid of - NO - can't see a decent coach wanting to work under the IRFU conditions so I think he should stay until those conditions change

And he is becoming too much of a legend for the entertainment value of his utterances for him to disappear just yet

Croyman wrote:

good points include - POM and DR got game time and performed well(decent selections)

He gets very little credit for the Ryan selection as he should have been on from the start of the 6N,he only got his chance through injury to PoC yet he has been starting for Munster ahead of DoC.He also came on as a sub in the 1st 3 games and showed he was better than DoC yet Kidney still refused to make the change.

Croyman wrote:
Hmmm

Working through your logical process

--- not all the blame on Selection can be placed on Kidney - the Irish rugby establishment follows certain self imposed "rules" - OK - from then on any blame is completely directed at the coaches

"Rules" - don't pick English based players?

According to Gerry Thornley - missing out therefore on Corbisiero, Doran-Jones etc

but also according to GT strict adherence to the academy/under-age policies unless in dire need such as Ross and J Hayes - i.e. no allowance for late developers -

I know I've gone on about English based players in the past but it's an open secret in England now so all those players that might have opted for Ireland in the past now go for England (thus the two mentioned above some having played under-age for Ireland) - London Irish should change its name to London English now

Croyman wrote:
Kidney may well be part of the problem but he isn't the whole of the problem

Corbisiero's presence on the English team - also Doran-Jones at Northampton - and hey ho someone somewhere might wake up to what some of the overall policies are doing to Irish rugby

G Thornley's article today touched on this point - also the slavish adherence to the academies/under-age etc route - Hayes and Ross apparently conformed to neither apparently (and I assume same applies to Hayes' brother) -

All of these things restrict the playing pool and ultimately the mind-set of the coaching staff.

Whatever the merits of the current set up you have to admit Ireland was left standing in the selection/coaching stakes by Wales and England

Not sure Doran-Jones was eligible for Ireland. He is English. Only ended up going to college (Trinity) in Dublin because of a bit of a scandal with Haskell in his English public school, and while here got selected for Irish under-age teams. He may eventually have been eligible on residency to be a full international, but at that stage he was finished in college here. Thats about it.

Plenty of players have come the Corbisiero route (Irish heritage) - Tom Court, Isaac Boss are the two obvious ones that have made it to international level. Rhys Ruddock is the obvious upcoming one and there are a few players down in Connacht who are eligible, but not quite the standard required. Straus at Leinster will be eligible for Ireland shortly, and Jared Payne up in Ulster in 2.5 years time.


edit: Donncha Ryan is a late developer (didn't take up rugby until he was 18). By the way, he turned down a full-time contract with Munster to finish his 4 year degree course.

Hi

On the selection side - or - size of the playing pool -- I was noting that Gerry T who I thought generally toes the party line has article on the very subject in the IT today - a taster follows:

""There’s also a clear problem in identifying and capturing talent. Paul Doran-Jones and Kieran Brookes played for Irish underage sides but are now English qualified, while the union were also tipped off about Alex Corbisiero’s Irish qualifications.

There’s no need to be too precious about this. Last Saturday, England had an American prop (Corbisiero), a New Zealand-born hooker (Dylan Hartley), a South Africa lock Mouritz Botha, centre Brad Barritt and reserve prop (Matt Stevens) and a Samoan-born centre (Manu Tuilagi), not to mention a German-born scrumhalf in Lee Dickson.""

But basically bemoaning the size of the available pool

((And again - no sooner mention London Irish than I see TOL is off there - their Irish supporters will be very pleased to see him as they are a bit lacking in Irish just now....))

But back to Deccie - I recall this argument going on last year - - - but I'm guessing he won't have seen this last 6N as one to remember - he I'm sure found the aborted Paris trip somewhat annoying - some of the reff'ing somewhat annoying --

I couldn't say he was 100% accurate in preparation but on the other hand he wasn't that bad & I don't think he is in sacking territory just now

((I might also make an opinion that he may have more "relationship trouble" with some of the Leinster players than any others in the pool and that this probably doesn't help either - i.e. the team appears a little fractured ))

So my overall opinion is that unless someone thinks the personnel in and structure of the team can change fairly radically I don't see the point of Deccie going - although I don't think he would have won the coach of the tournament prize which I guess is to manage the Lions

Why would Corbisiero or Brookes choose Ireland when they can earn just as much and stay "at home". They have been contacted and made their choice so that has to be respected.

Ireland have been scouring the world for props for years so the whole scout appointment is a total red herring by the IRFU to convince the (G)IT readers that they are actually doing something. At Ulster there is Tom Court, Callum Black and Declan Fitzpatrick who have been imported and are still in the squad and Daniel Roach who isn't.

Stephen Knoop was one of the first "project" players at Connacht and has disappeared without trace since qualifying and moving to D4. Brett Wilkinson is still at Connacht alongside Rodney Ah You with recent imports Peter Borlase and Nathan White.

If you count (I wouldn't) Clint Newland that's 10 potential Irish props brought in from outside Ireland in the past half dozen years and only one has seen Test rugby.

In the meantime there have been exports like Ray Hogan and Peter Bracken who had limited success in the GP, and latterly Timmy Ryan, Andress and Buckley whose records are questionable. The only real export of note was Ross and when he was imported back he struggled for provincial gametime.

So the real question for me, is not about the quality of the props, but rather what is it about playing in Ireland that doesn't prepare them for Test rugby? The only conclusion is that the scrum is devalued from schools all the way up to PRO12 and it's only at HEC level and above that the scrum becomes important. Therefore young players and understudies can never get the experience necessary to make the step up, because there are only three competitive teams in the HEC and most of those places have to be filled by NIE imports. Ergo what the IRFU should really be doing is shipping the likes of Hagan, Archer and Macklin across to the AP to teach them how to scrummage for a couple of years rather than trying to entice English (or other) lads and convince them that they have some affinity with Ireland.

Great Aukster - the other countries in the world all have "devalued scrums" - i.e. they play with U19 rules also.

Its a culture thing though. We (as a rugby playing country) dont relish scrums, we dont like them. However you go to other places and scrum training is taken very seriously.

I'm probably showing a Northern Irish view here of some perceived background themes in Irish rugby ----

One's perception rightly or wrongly is that many also play gaelic football - and also the prevalent attitudes to what rugby is all about - Eddie O'Sullivan talked about getting "the best 15 footballers on the pitch" in the only presentation I have ever seen him make. All of which leads me to think that most Irish rugby players come from an Aerobic Sport background and tend to be lean and mobile - excellent catchers of a high ball and decent "footballers". Tom Court at least was a shot putter - and I thought he used to be a decent scrummaging loose head

Countries such as Georgia where players might be converting from their strong Graeco-Roman wrestling & other wrestling traditions perhaps produce both decent scrummagers and scrummagers who actually like the job.

The Welsh have their background of steel-workers etc etc etc but Irish props have no generic background - one famous one I recall (he was captain) had an IQ of 160 plus - Sid Millar was a doctor - etc - I have a Irish programme with a fairly unremarkable Malone player in the side but apparently he was a decent prop etc etc

Maybe we need to encourage more all in wrestling in Ireland ? Whatever - as you indicate there seems to be a much better chance of finding oil in Ireland than a good supply of props.

Croyman wrote: Whatever - as you indicate there seems to be a much better chance of finding oil in Ireland than a good supply of props.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0315/providence-business.html

You've been proven right.

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would Corbisiero or Brookes choose Ireland when they can earn just as much and stay "at home". They have been contacted and made their choice so that has to be respected.

Ireland have been scouring the world for props for years so the whole scout appointment is a total red herring by the IRFU to convince the (G)IT readers that they are actually doing something. At Ulster there is Tom Court, Callum Black and Declan Fitzpatrick who have been imported and are still in the squad and Daniel Roach who isn't.

Stephen Knoop was one of the first "project" players at Connacht and has disappeared without trace since qualifying and moving to D4. Brett Wilkinson is still at Connacht alongside Rodney Ah You with recent imports Peter Borlase and Nathan White.

If you count (I wouldn't) Clint Newland that's 10 potential Irish props brought in from outside Ireland in the past half dozen years and only one has seen Test rugby.

In the meantime there have been exports like Ray Hogan and Peter Bracken who had limited success in the GP, and latterly Timmy Ryan, Andress and Buckley whose records are questionable. The only real export of note was Ross and when he was imported back he struggled for provincial gametime.

So the real question for me, is not about the quality of the props, but rather what is it about playing in Ireland that doesn't prepare them for Test rugby? The only conclusion is that the scrum is devalued from schools all the way up to PRO12 and it's only at HEC level and above that the scrum becomes important. Therefore young players and understudies can never get the experience necessary to make the step up, because there are only three competitive teams in the HEC and most of those places have to be filled by NIE imports. Ergo what the IRFU should really be doing is shipping the likes of Hagan, Archer and Macklin across to the AP to teach them how to scrummage for a couple of years rather than trying to entice English (or other) lads and convince them that they have some affinity with Ireland.

Its a good thing that the AB's are completely innocent of of scouting outside of NZ for players isnt it?
I dont normally respond to posts like this in regardsto players nationalities but it really does annoy me. First make sure your own house is clean before commenting on anothers

As an historical point - RS - I believe the first scrummaging machine was invented by the rugby master at a school here in Croydon.

Apparently in the very dim past at the school I went to in Ulster (it was on a hill) the rugby team would do some training by pushing the cricket roller up the hill.

Is it the English...or it it the French?... can't remember, but wasn't there a story about a very specialised scrummaging machine that could be calibrated to represent specific opposition packs?

ie - we're playing Australia next week - press a button and away we go with practice?

Does anyone remember talk of that a few years ago?

Not so hot on the srummaging machines so it could have been an April Fool joke, and yet they might be standard kit at this stage Do set me right, someone who knows

I never heard about that Fly. Sounds like a cracking idea though.

Well, I'm assuring folks I'm not joking about it. I think it was the French. I must go do a little research and try to prove to myself that the voices in my head haven't come back to..........................

oh, better keep that quiet....................... pretend I said nothing lads.

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8169338

It exists................................. but, when your opponents don't want to scrum, it's 200,000 wasted.

I think the game they're refering to is the Australia game where the Aussies destroyed them in every department but the scrum!

Good memory then Fly, i had never heard of such a thing. It obviously wasnt a great sucess

bit like Rory McIlroy's 3 acre back garden - apparently he has about three greens and he phoned the Americans before the US Open and asked what speed the greens would be then asked his groundsmen to prepare his greens to that speed

He also has different sorts of rough and different sorts of sand (British Open and American types) in different bunkers - and a bunker that is a copy of the St Andrew's Road Hole one but a bit deeper

Croyman wrote:bit like Rory McIlroy's 3 acre back garden - apparently he has about three greens and he phoned the Americans before the US Open and asked what speed the greens would be then asked his groundsmen to prepare his greens to that speed

He also has different sorts of rough and different sorts of sand (British Open and American types) in different bunkers - and a bunker that is a copy of the St Andrew's Road Hole one but a bit deeper

Doesn't he also have a few groves of trees to practice his rebound shots?

SecretFly wrote:Is it the English...or it it the French?... can't remember, but wasn't there a story about a very specialised scrummaging machine that could be calibrated to represent specific opposition packs?

ie - we're playing Australia next week - press a button and away we go with practice?

Does anyone remember talk of that a few years ago?

Not so hot on the srummaging machines so it could have been an April Fool joke, and yet they might be standard kit at this stage Do set me right, someone who knows

Don't know where you pulled that one from Fly, but the hat's well and truly off.



PS If you can get this thread closed out by Sunday night (21 pages?) I'll donate £20 to sport relief, personally, I don't think that's possible...

Leinster are gonna run riot in Thomond. Humiliate the men in red in front of their own fans.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Leinster are gonna run riot in Thomond. Humiliate the men in red in front of their own fans.

Well, that's just ruined the contribution PJ might have given to sports relief! That comment, when certan people see it, will ensure another 30 pages of this thread at least.

eirebilly wrote:Its a good thing that the AB's are completely innocent of of scouting outside of NZ for players isnt it?
I dont normally respond to posts like this in regardsto players nationalities but it really does annoy me. First make sure your own house is clean before commenting on anothers

Perhaps you would do well to actually read the text and comment on that billy. Don't assume anything - I'm an Ulsterman and feel just as qualified as you to comment on the house we live in.

The Great Aukster wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Its a good thing that the AB's are completely innocent of of scouting outside of NZ for players isnt it?
I dont normally respond to posts like this in regardsto players nationalities but it really does annoy me. First make sure your own house is clean before commenting on anothers

Perhaps you would do well to actually read the text and comment on that billy. Don't assume anything - I'm an Ulsterman and feel just as qualified as you to comment on the house we live in.

My apologies, your name suggested to me that you were a Kiwi. I am just slightly fed up with reading posts about countries scrounging the earth for players to qualify for individual countries.

The subject of scouting other countries for players has been reasoned to death.

It really doesn't matter whether a country is doing it or not. Players these days go where they see a career opportunity and if it happens that they qualify for another country and choose to accept the selection, then so be it.

A few countries are still "pure" as far as that is concerned but none are innocent.

Soon the situation will be one where all countries will have had a player of a different nationality, whether we like it or not doesn't really change anything.

Billy - apology accepted. BTW the great auk was unique to the Northern Hemisphere - before it became extinct!

On the scouting issue, I don't see any objections, nor do I think there should be from any rugby fan who wants the game to grow. More nations have to become more competitive and they can't do that with relatively small player pools. Also the major nations are producing more players than they can ever use at Test level so if there are other national outlets for these players then that has to ensure their continued demand.

Of course having enough decent quality players is only half the battle, the other is having a coach prepared to use them.

Thats my point biltong, it has been done to death and only ends up with threads full of abuse.

The Great Aukster wrote:Billy - apology accepted. BTW the great auk was unique to the Northern Hemisphere - before it became extinct!

On the scouting issue, I don't see any objections, nor do I think there should be from any rugby fan who wants the game to grow. More nations have to become more competitive and they can't do that with relatively small player pools. Also the major nations are producing more players than they can ever use at Test level so if there are other national outlets for these players then that has to ensure their continued demand.

Of course having enough decent quality players is only half the battle, the other is having a coach prepared to use them.

I dream for a day when Ireland has a coach brave enough to take a risk. This summer tour is the perfect opportunity, nothing is expected from Ireland so why not have a pun on some young lads