England - The most Improved side in NH ?

Yes, today concluded first chapter in the England renaissance.
New skipper, new coach, new caps. Most improved ? Most definitely yes.
But what do you all think ?

Many past "renaissances" for various sides that have gone down officially as false dawns or one-offs. Need more time to determine what direction England are really heading in.

A big series loss in SA will set you back a long way in terms of confidence.

Nah, didn't we win it last year?

Only joking, I'm much happier with England this year than last, superb progress. Lancaster for pm etc.

Well SH tours are the next big challenge for both England & Wales. We have done for Aus the last couple of times. I'd say we have a improved team right now. I agree that RSA will be a test. They have had our measure in the past. I'm impressed for this scratch side's trajectory right now.

Very much so. Apologies for my late congrats as I have been on the Irish thread. Massively deserved victory from 1-15. Personally I think Lancaster deserves a shot but as long as the next coach continues his work then I think you are in as good nick as since 2003. Congrats lads.

Yes they are really even though they won it last year. They then got found out badly in the GS decider and in the RWC.

Who was the chap who said it was a mistake changing the team like this and we should have stuck with last years poorly led shambles?

StandUlster : manful post. We love the Irish.

We do indeed.

Let's be honest - there was a lot of improvement needed. It holds promise for the future, and Lancaster has managed to turn them into a genuine team, with real spirit. However they are still very very far from the finished article. I hope they can now start to build on the pretty solid foundations that have been laid down. But, be prepared to receive a good kicking in SA. It will either make or break this squad.
Exciting times though!

There are lies, damn lies and statistics. The last of these tell us that in RWC 2011 England went home with a record of won 3 lost 1, while Wales went home with a record of 3 and 3. And yet no-one seriously could argue that England had the better World Cup.

Given the fiasco that happened then, this England side must indeed be seen as the most improved NH side: this 6N Wales have remained clearly top of the pile while Ireland and France would have expected to win more than they lost, Italy would have hoped to snatch a 2nd win and Scotland got whitewashed (nuff said).

So England are the most improved (but not best overall) side with a record of 4 wins and a loss, as opposed to their record last year of ... erm ... 4 wins and a loss. Did I mention there are lies, damn lies and statistics?

Thing is nobbled, we have a ton of talent coming through the U20's now ((not yet pulled through, something which weakned Wales U 20's this year).

We had none around 03 and god did it bite us on the ass since.

I see a few very strong years from the English and Welsh.

It depends on how low you start.

Well let's start as low as Welsh opinion / predictions.

Some real positives from this year - certainly don't think many of us expected 4 wins and a close defeat against Wales from this year given the rebuilding job needed after the RWC and the (assumed) interim coaching team. Performances have improved match on match, even if today's performance was with a limited game plan once it was obvious that we were destroying the Irish scrum.

Corbisiero has really established himself as first choice loosehead, while Cole has continued to develop into a very good tighthead.

Parling has been good - solid lineout operator and offers quite a bit in the loose.

Croft in the last two games has been close to his Lions form - pity about his handling screw up today.

Morgan has been the big revelation though - has the power and handling of Easter but with much more pace. Since he came in to the starting line-up we've had much more go forward.

Of the backs, Farrell looks like a good prospect at 10, although his passing today was a bit inaccurate and he stopped too many backline moves, while Barritt has been the archetype solid 12 - hardly missed a tackle all tournament and increasingly important as a ball carrier in the last couple of games.

Still room for improvement in a few areas - Hartley didn't have a great tournament as a ball carrier, the breakdown is still a bit hit and miss, and we've struggled to get the most out of the back 3, but overall we've more to be happy about than otherwise.

You mean predictions the Welsh made of a grand slam? Or Lancasters hope for 3 wins?

A good step in the right direction, but still a hell of a lot to do.

I'm not sure how much to take from this 6N, there were some pretty exciting games, but I don't think any of the teams played the best quality rugby, and some were often just poor and error strewn.

Wales are the most improved side we have gone from being fourth last year to winning it this year.
England this year had nothing to lose it was a new team with a new coaching staff. The real test starts now when expectations are a bit higher but I do believe there is the makings of a very good side in this England setup..

gregortree wrote:Yes, today concluded first chapter in the England renaissance.
New skipper, new coach, new caps. Most improved ? Most definitely yes.
But what do you all think ?

Ahem
You won the 6Ns last year
You didnt win the 6Ns this year

So ahem in your eyes thats improving?

English media spin kicks in already.England make a fantastic improvement after winning 6N's last year.A post script in final para:By the way,Wales won a GS!You lot make me chuckle.Fairplay!

flyhalffactory wrote:

gregortree wrote:Yes, today concluded first chapter in the England renaissance.
New skipper, new coach, new caps. Most improved ? Most definitely yes.
But what do you all think ?

Ahem
You won the 6Ns last year
You didnt win the 6Ns this year

So ahem in your eyes thats improving?

Flyhalf, you have to give them credit for performing the way they did with a new coach and a handfull of new caps after their disasterous RWC campaign.

I honestly couldnt be happier with this England team- way happier with a second spot than the win last year!

To think england were a laughing stock 7 months ago at the world cup!

never seen a team improve game on game for 5 games before at that rate. Almost abit spooky.

Without a doubt. Given where England were starting from, they are the most improved side in the time period.

Big congratulations.

Well before the 6Ns started most pundits & bookies wre predicting a table something like this.
Taking into account then current WC form

1. France
2/3. Wales/Ireland
4/5. Scotland/England
6. Italy

On that basis Wales & England must be content others less so.

Most improved without doubt England but more importantly most IMPROVING definitely England.
The last 2 results against France & Ireland were the acid tests & we put them both away.
We aren't the finished article of course but no one will relish playing England.

When was the last time you saw an Irish pack go backwards like today?

England improved most, as evidenced by 2 key measures:

1/ from how 'crape' they were predicted to be before the tourney, 4th plaec finish, blah blah,(westerly cousins esp) to where England actually finished.

2/ IRB ranking position up from 6 to 4. THE ONLY NH side to get into the RWC15 top 4 seedings.

All this whilst rebuilding a management team and 1st team pretty much from scratch. That is some impressive change of pace in no time at all, right there.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Well before the 6Ns started most pundits & bookies wre predicting a table something like this.
Taking into account then current WC form

1. France
2/3. Wales/Ireland
4/5. Scotland/England
6. Italy

Eh, they didn't actually. Ireland were predicted fourth by most pundits and bookies. England were joint second with Wales with the bookies on average.

I don't think I have ever seen any Irish side get out muscled like that. England deserve massive crddit for that. Well done lads, great win, conditions didn't help either side but England were by far the better team. Great win lads. Congrats.

Really? I thought most pundits were predicting Ireland or France for the championship with England near the bottom because of their "new inexperienced side".

It depends where you're starting from. If you're talking since the start of the 6 Nations tournament then yes, it's probably England. Wales did a lot of their improving during the summer and into the World Cup.

It's also difficult to tell as the form of other sides has ebbed and flowed.

I think what benefited England in this years 6N is that they were working with alot of new faces, and the opposition weren't sure the kind of game England were going to bring to the pitch. Although week 3-5 games, the opposition should have had a better idea after the first few tests.

Lot's of positives for England to move forward with, next year i think will be a better test for England, as teams will have a better idea on how to play against this new England team.

Even though Wales performed well during the summer and into the World Cup as you said. Most pundits and (opposition) fans thought it was just a fluke and thought France or Ireland would win because of Ireland's club form and France's strength in depth.

Although i do realise that the bookies had Wales quite high up in their estimations.

gowales wrote:Even though Wales performed well during the summer and into the World Cup as you said. Most pundits and (opposition) fans thought it was just a fluke and thought France or Ireland would win because of Ireland's club form and France's strength in depth.

Although I do realise that the bookies had Wales quite high up in their estimations.

Most pundits thought it was just a fluke?

Care to name who most of these pundits were? Wales were being tipped to carry their RWC performance through into 6N. So were France coupled with their perennial tipping as victors given their 6N record. Some Irish fans and some Irish commentators might have thought Ireland would do better. One could be perverse and say they did in the bookies' estimation, with France sliding the furthest, and therefore the worst of the 4 teams, but that's like choosing which of the two Ugly Sisters to take to the ball.

England have the same outcome as last year with 4/5 - however they have really used a new broom to get rid of ther ageing dross and they appear to have some decent foundations in place - Patience is a virtue and England often lack that - I would have concerns if Tuilagi gets injured as he seems the only midfield go to player. Given the context of the changes they have to be the most improved side of the tournament. Wales for me flattered to deceive and never really hit the heights they achieved in the RWC - teams came to defend against them and it almost worked. They will learn and revert back to more dynamism IMO - A GS but haven't really played well for 80 minutes. To England - the most improved side for me

Wales went from forth place last year to a RWC semi final and a Grandslam. I would say they are definitely the most improved team.

England have dropped a placing and won the same amount of games. I also don't think this England team is better than the previous.

I think Wakes are the most improved. They could've had a WC hangover but were superb and worthy GS winners. Yesterdays game was there best imo, didn't give France sweet fa. England have suprised more than improved . Some ppl might be moaning about the media hype but credit is certainly deserved because of the retirements,caretaker coaches, new players etc.

How does one measure who improved the most, do you go by results?

Do you go by the number of challlenges each team faced respectively.

I think it is subjective.

Standulstermen wrote:Very much so. Apologies for my late congrats as I have been on the Irish thread. Massively deserved victory from 1-15. Personally I think Lancaster deserves a shot but as long as the next coach continues his work then I think you are in as good nick as since 2003. Congrats lads.

Thanks SUman.

And I feel for you watching a very disappointing Irish side.

And please don't accuse me as Rava did yesterday of gloating. I seriously am NOT.

I hold in Irish rugby in high regard.

"Most improved" from when? If you're looking at the most improved side this season, then it's Wales. If you're looking at the most improved side this year it's England.

Kiwi, this England team & the manager have only been put together this year.This new team gained +2 IRB rankings in the process. Only NH side in top 4 now. That is improvement.....

gregortree wrote:Kiwi, this England team & the manager have only been put together this year.This new team gained +2 IRB rankings in the process. Only NH side in top 4 now. That is improvement.....

Exactly my point. This year (in 2012) England is most improved. This season (ie including the RWC) I think Wales have made the biggest advances - but they made most of those gains before the new year,

Well you could say that the difference between the England team that were do
Lacklustre against Italy and Scotland looked much better vs Wales then France. Though I wasn't overly impressed with their play against Ireland, despite the weather.

If you are looking at this year(2012) then you will have to say England is the most improved team.

But you also have to look at Wales if you are talking about this season from the RWC through to the 6ns and winning a Grand Slam.

The difference between Wales and England though is that England have only been together for 8 weeks.

Kiwireddevil wrote:"Most improved" from when? If you're looking at the most improved side this season, then it's Wales. If you're looking at the most improved side this year it's England.

Agreed - sums it up perfectly for me.

England 2nd this Year.

England 1st Last Year.

??? I still can't understand what was so wrong with England Mark 1 last year. Acted like school boys at the WC, and probably played badly because of the ensuing publicity and 'shame'. But as a team with the same potential as this one, I don't see a whole lot of difference.

well last year we had the old gaurd still in the team- therefore there was limited future potential, we didnt have new finds last year like we do this year in farrell and morgan!

however that team was pretty good just didnt seem to raise there game when it mattered- whereas this team has raised its game when it mattered!

mystir - they're young (ish) and they are hungry to prove themselves, and they are playing decently without being too expansive. Good beginning but England have had good beginnings before.

I don't think this England have played with anything of the invincible swagger that sometimes the England of last year showed. Now that might develop of course but for now, I'm simply saying I don't see Ooh, ahhs yet whereas last year's batch certainly had it in their armoury and proved it from time to time.

Crushing win against Ireland yesterday but we Irish have been complaining viciously about this Ireland side since before the WC..even last year we were complaining. I'd like to think Ireland are a tough team to breakdown but not with this current faltering coaching set-up they're not.

Jonathon Davies said tonight n scrum five that the other coaches really rate Andy Farrell.

I agree that I think he is the key to all that is good in this England coaching set up

Of course we need a proper baseline to establish most improved - How about a bit of context here - England without doubt most improved - Wales without doubt the best even though they haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations - Lots for both to look forward to

RubyGuby wrote:haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations

you can pretty much say that about all the teams.

I think Gregortree means England are the most improved side in the NH since the start of this year's 6 nations.

Wales showed they were a good side with their WC performance.

Secretfly you say there was no invincible swagger but the way the English pack dominated the Irish one points to a England pack starting to show it's potential.

Like last season England won 4 lost 1. The difference was that England won 3 away games in the 6 nations. The first time they had done so ever in the 6 nations. Beating Scotland,Italy and France away in one 6 nations is no mean feat.

Another difference - Martin Johnson's England side started strongly in the 6 nations with a good away win against Wales and a pummeling of Italy at home but was followed by shaky wins vs France and Scotland (both at home) followed by a hammering against Ireland.

Lancaster's side in comparison was an upward curve - tight away wins vs Scotland and Italy, followed by an improved game against Wales which England could have won, afterwards were two decent performances vs France away and Ireland home.

In the last two games vs France and Ireland, England scored 5 tries conceding 1.

England look to have good solid foundations. Confidence rebuilt.

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations

you can pretty much say that about all the teams.

Your reluctance on occasion surprises me and I find it quite revealing - hey ho! we can't win 'em all - Let's hope Wales are the most improved next year