England - The most Improved side in NH ?

First topic message reminder :

Yes, today concluded first chapter in the England renaissance.
New skipper, new coach, new caps. Most improved ? Most definitely yes.
But what do you all think ?

RubyGuby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations

you can pretty much say that about all the teams.

Your reluctance on occasion surprises me and I find it quite revealing - hey ho! we can't win 'em all - Let's hope Wales are the most improved next year

Huh?

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations

you can pretty much say that about all the teams.

Your reluctance on occasion surprises me and I find it quite revealing - hey ho! we can't win 'em all - Let's hope Wales are the most improved next year

Huh?

RubyGuby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:haven't put a decent 80 minutes together this 6 Nations

you can pretty much say that about all the teams.

Your reluctance on occasion surprises me and I find it quite revealing - hey ho! we can't win 'em all - Let's hope Wales are the most improved next year

Huh?

Ruby
Wales did a lot of their improving before / during the RWC prior to the 6N, and still show all the potential to go further. Deserved GS winners I was certainly 'feeling' a Welsh 6N, / GS after the first round.
I should also add my (belated) congratulations to a great Welsh team and squad for deservedly winning this Slam.
England have surprised many posters on here, me among them, at the rate of progress through the championship, gaining +2 IRB places. Behind Wales in development, having only recently hit the England 'restart' under Lancaster, and behind Wales in 6N, but only just. I hope both sides continue in their respective trajectories so once again NH rugby (British especially) can really challenge the South. I'm looking forward to those further tests this summer, to see where we all stand against top 3 teams. Good luck to your boys too this summer.

Where are all the people who said that England didn't have a scrum anymore?

If only we were playing Wales this coming weekend as I believe we wouldn't just win we would show them up for what they are.

HERSH wrote:Where are all the people who said that England didn't have a scrum anymore?

If only we were playing Wales this coming weekend as I believe we wouldn't just win we would show them up for what they are.

Sometimes Hersh you are the only one that brings some sanity to this site - well played on the weekend. I think your boys will give us a better game in Cardiff in 2013 and it should be another brutal affair.

I know people like to speculate and that England did better than expected, but they are not the finished article and it is TOO EARLY TO TELL if they will become world beaters. They would need to continue improving at a similar rate for another year or two to beat the All Blacks in my opinion, and although I don't wish to take away from Lancaster and co's achievements it is a lot easier to improve a side that are very bad than it is to improve a side that are already good. There's simply so much you can improve and so little you can make worse! Once they're good you need to keep standards high in all aspects whilst also improving bits here and there. All the while you are losing the novelty of a new coach, the press start giving you a much harder time and the fans tolerate any losses less and less.

Lancaster might make England true world beaters, he might not. All we can say so far is that he's made a new team and made them a lot better in 5 games. An achievement in itself.

Really HERSH? REALLY???

Your going to lower yourself to that?

I'd say if they were to play this weekend the game could go a few different ways.

Firstly maybe the English scrum would fare better and not get pushed onto their bums again, and maybe the backs would show more nous and breach the try line, and maybe England could win.

Secondly, a Wales team who actually added to their scrum, the one that pushed England onto their bums, with a known scrummager in Rees and Davies in the engine room would actually fare better against the English reaching near domination. The backline given more freedom as England open up looking to actually score, and Wales could win by 15+.

Or thirdly, the scrum would be an even contest, the lienout an even contest, and the breakdown an even contest, with Wales just having too much in the backline and off the bench and win by 5 points!

My personall opinion is the third, with a known scrummager, monster in the engine room and lienout, and enforcer type back in the team Wales will have only got stronger, I'm just not sure Sharples replacing Strettle would aid the England team that much!

I also think noone gives enough credit to Wales for beating Ireland and England on their own patch with 4/5 tight 5 players missing!

I do, England have improved game by game the Welsh game was always going to come too soon for a new team especially after the two previous games were played in awful weather.

Plus its always easier when you have three home games like Wales did.

Ye England and Ireland away really played into our hands, both being particularly weak this year those games were gimme's.

It was always going to be the French that worried me, the only team that stood a realistic chance but they were so poor it was hardly funny.

TBH I know people say it was a devalued 6N and well with the ease of which we won a GS, you know beating teams with numerous first teamers missing, and a number of injured players, I think we've outgrown the likes of England and Italy.

Maybe we could make a 5N NH tourny and we'll go mix it up down under in a 5N down there, you know give us a challenge and England a chance

Grow up HERSH and take it on the chin kid!

Have I said it was a devalued 6 nations?

Did I say you called it a devalued 6N?

"TBH I know people say it was a devalued 6N "


Have I said Wales didn't deserve to win the 6 nations?

err No.

But what I did say is that if England were to play Wales this coming weekend I fancy England to win, as we have improved over the last two games, and I believe we are now at a level that we would beat Wales.

Stop trying to start an argument!

TBH, I`m just glad that the NH has 2 teams at present who I think will give our SH friends a run for their money this summer and not come skulking back to the NH licking their wounds.
Come on England, go Wales!!

I don't see the SH tours as that important this year, by that I don't think England or Wales have to win the series as long as they're competitive I'd be happy, both teams are young and the experience will do them good.

I agree, good tight matches rather the usual mauling and perhaps a win or 2 will do me although England achieved that last year and it didn`t seem to help much. This England team seems to be built of sterner stuff than last years, exciting but always fragile version.

I see this years tour as more of a warm up act for the Lions.

LIONS LIONS LIONS.....

HERSH wrote:I don't see the SH tours as that important this year, by that I don't think England or Wales have to win the series as long as they're competitive I'd be happy, both teams are young and the experience will do them good.

The summer tours are very important the raking positions this December will determine the seedings for the WC

BlueMan
Congrats on the Wales' slam, best team won, I have no problem with that.
But Rookie England gave Wales the closest matchup this 6N, table says so too.
Don't look over your shoulder, or you will see your bogey team England there, not France. And whatever you do, don't look at IRB rankings.

Cymroglan wrote:

HERSH wrote:I don't see the SH tours as that important this year, by that I don't think England or Wales have to win the series as long as they're competitive I'd be happy, both teams are young and the experience will do them good.

The summer tours are very important the raking positions this December will determine the seedings for the WC

I don't fear anyone nor should England or Wales, I'd take NZ, ARG, Scotland and Samoa. at the end of the day if you're good enough you should beat anyone.

Gregortree

Who's looking over their shoulder, without any insult I think Wales have done the job they wanted and are no focusing on bigger and better. This is rankings year, as much as they count for nothing a good run this year puts a NH side into the top 4/3, and thus giving them what is traditionally weaker NH opposition in the WC group.
More important than that though the welsh camp is now looking to take regular results against what will be better opposition in the summer and AI's. As much respect I have for an England team who played out of their skin this tourny they are not SH quality, arguably Wales are not either, but from all the talk within the camp thats what they want, top 3 status. However this will not happen if they allow Aus to stifle them like they allowed the 6N teams.

From an english point of veiw, and not from my own a few points were made to me yesterday.

Englands results may prove a mixed bag for their development...

Lancaster now has a strong case for the job, and in my opinion and the general concencus is that will be good for England, however the Irish and French performances may have given the media too much ammo for what could prove to be a disastrous summer tour. I think SA relish playing England, and will arguably be a step up from anything theyve faced so far. With so many young faces they might just get the shock of their lives, a tour anywhere in the world but SA would've been much better for their development, similarly I feel Aus is the perfect place to go this summer for Wales.

HESRH

whos starting an argument? I made a point that some devalued this tourny, there is a whole thread on it if you hadn't noticed, but you have because youve commented on it. My point was for your reasoning that England have improved, Wales have had key first teamers return, so I think Wales would not just beat the English this weekend but really hammer home the difference. But we are both talking garbage in saying that aren't we?!

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!

Yes England should be congratulated, I am not sure they are yet playing better than the team that won the 6 nations last year but this squad certainly has more potential and English fans have a lot more to be optimistic about. Not really much competition when it comes to pinpointing them as the most improved NH side as apart from Wales, who continued to build on previous improvements, none of the other 6 nations sides showed any improvement in this years competition ......... although looking wider I notice Germany have leaped 4 places to 32cnd in the world........England v Germany in the 2023 World Cup rugby semi final sounds an interesting prospect!

Only worry for England may be sustaining improvement at the individual level as the players that stood out for them as stars in 2011, and who are still in or arround the team, seem in general to have gone backwards - Ashton, Youngs, Flood. If Farrell, Morgan and Tualagi go the same way it will be another false dawn(we know a lot about them in Wales)

But Bluesman you follow me all over 606 trying to start and argument, its verging on harassment and if it continues I will be contacting the sites mods.

"Ashton, Youngs, Flood. If Farrell, Morgan and Tualagi"

all 6 are still englands future, there is no flase dawns if you dont big em up enough in the first place, they are good players which could be great, but then england have alot of other depth as well. its about getting a result or two in SH- then we will know more, then we can build on to 2013 6n's and on and on to the 2015 wc where we just want our best team playing- immaterial if there are dawns or false danws as you put it!! just the best we have

They have improved - from very poor to poor.

Fact remains they have won nothing since 2003 except from a paltry 6 nations win last year when all others were experimenting pre world cup.

Since 2005 wales 3 grand slams england 0

deanofatboy wrote:

They have improved - from very poor to poor.

Fact remains they have won nothing since 2003 except from a paltry 6 nations win last year when all others were experimenting pre world cup.

Since 2005 wales 3 grand slams england 0

Deano, not every claim gets ligitimacy because you compare it to another country that has had more success. The fact is england has shown vast improvement in their last match vs Ireland. It once again showed when they can dominate up front they are a dangerous team.

Good luck with that debate Biltong

Leave it out HERSH.

Oakey

You are right, the summer is pretty important for England and Wales. Do you think England can win in SA? There won't be too much fear from this England camp, there are some gems, but are the 'stop gap' players good enough, or is this the time to start blooding players in the positions of weakness.

I think a young hooker needs to go, as well as another TH. I want to see Parling and Palmer play together, and Wood definately needs to come back in at 7, maybe take a more natural option too.

I'd also like to see Ford tour, maybe just for the experience at this stage. Trinder May and maybe the Armitages deserve a shot?

RubyGuby wrote:Good luck with that debate Biltong

do you disagree with me?

If you look at england not being able to get a try unless it was a charge down in the beginning of the six Nations to being lack lustre with little intensity and no inclination of wanting to play rugby and just defend, to where they had intensity with their forwards, dominated the srums to such an extent where they borke the spirit of Ireland in the weekend and scored 3 good tires, how did they not improve?

The elephant in the room is Andy Farrell and his unambitious game plan.

BlueMan,
Did not realise we selected the 'wrong' SH country to tour. No doubt these are difficult tours to arrange in the diaries well ahead of the event.
We have beaten Aus twice with our 'crap' old England team last 2 outings Sydney, Twickenham, albeit in 2010. RSA & NZ have been Englands greater bogeys. RSA will be a tough call and a good test for our youngsters at about the right time in their curve. RSA have probably eased back a little in form, just above England in the rankings, so an appropriate test. New England have a long way to go still, certainly. And also good luck to Wales in Australia btw.

blues- I have no idea how the sa/eng games are gonna pan out! i would suggest SA will win all 3 however i reakon if England can get one win that would be another step up!

I think wales will win the series v aus mind

deanofatboy wrote:

They have improved - from very poor to poor.

Fact remains they have won nothing since 2003 except from a paltry 6 nations win last year when all others were experimenting pre world cup.

Since 2005 wales 3 grand slams england 0

We've exceeded expectations this 6N no so much improved compared to last year. Experimenting pre world cup? Please, That was 6 month away. What were the warm ups for?

Biltong,
you're surely not resorting to rational argument are you ? Keep it up and the Welsh posters may report you to a mod.

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Good luck with that debate Biltong

do you disagree with me?

If you look at england not being able to get a try unless it was a charge down in the beginning of the six Nations to being lack lustre with little intensity and no inclination of wanting to play rugby and just defend, to where they had intensity with their forwards, dominated the srums to such an extent where they borke the spirit of Ireland in the weekend and scored 3 good tires, how did they not improve?

Biltong you are becoming an expert at missing the point. Do you take everything so literal? My good luck with the debate quip was satirical given that the posters comments were cartoonish at best and not to be taken seriously - C'mon, get with it

Looking at improvement England were pretty crap against Scotland and Italy improved dramatically against Wales which was possibly their best performance then maintained the plateau against France and Ireland .

Wales were at their best probably against Ireland but most controlled against France .

Scotland went down and down really.

Italy were up and down particularly down against Ireland before rallying in the last two games .

Ireland started well but lost it big time at the end .

So looking at the standard of the first and last games yes I'd give it to England as the most improved and therefore deserving of their second place.

gregortree wrote:Biltong,
you're surely not resorting to rational argument are you ? Keep it up and the Welsh posters may report you to a mod.

yeah gregor (he says as he sighs) It seems I may make as many positive comments about welsh rugby as I want, however no disagreement will be tolerated.

Well in my veiw and from where England are coming it is the wrong place to tour at present. After their WC and a number of players with something to prove.

I think of all 3N teams Aus have the less depth, and with a few key injuries are there for the taking, I see SA as one of the toughest places to go, and if either NH team come home winless this tourny will have meant very little!

mystiroakey wrote:blues- I have no idea how the sa/eng games are gonna pan out! i would suggest SA will win all 3 however i reakon if England can get one win that would be another step up!

Mystir, I think based on what I saw this weekend, the english scrum minght well teach us a lesson or two.

Our front row comprising Beast, Bismarck and Jannie aren't the greatest scrumming power around and looking at our new coach and perhaps some new selections this is a good time for england to take a series. I certainly am not too confident.

Really billtong?

SA look like a side that may struggle, I disagree with your point on the front row, they more than hold their own, it's the locks I'd worry about. The back row will just be too much for the much softer inexperienced English surely don't you think? SA will have their backs to the wall as they did in Twickers a few years ago, and well owned the game for 80. I'm not suggesting that will happen but I can't see too far past it. I hope I'm wrong.

I think that's fair. Wales if anything have gone back a little in quality of performance since the world cup, however have made massive strides in game management and application.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Really billtong?

SA look like a side that may struggle, I disagree with your point on the front row, they more than hold their own, it's the locks I'd worry about. The back row will just be too much for the much softer inexperienced English surely don't you think? SA will have their backs to the wall as they did in Twickers a few years ago, and well owned the game for 80. I'm not suggesting that will happen but I can't see too far past it. I hope I'm wrong.

Bluesman,

Our front row in gegeral has not been dominating anyone for quite some time. Beast is often caught for scrumming illegal, we are mobile with them yes, but certainly not world beaters. Yes, our back row is always strong, doesn't really matter who is selceted, but then our back row has had their issues with interpreting or reading the way referees officiate at the breakdown.

I am deferring judgement on the bok team until I have seen abit more of Heyneke Meyer.

I agree the front row won't be dominating anyone anytime soon, and they do tend to leak penalties but they are no mugs, they do not get minced around like the French, Irish and even English scrum has a number of times this season!

Decent start for this young side, but not much more than that. Sensationalist media raises expectations more than they should. Can't see NZ or SA worrying about much.