POOR SPORTSMANSHIP

First topic message reminder :

In light of all the celebrations,we are over looking something very disturbing thats rotting our game from within
If Roger had lost it would certainly have been a serious topic so I see no reason why it shouldn't be highlighted regardless of the out come

On ESPN Pam Shriver and Cahill were pretty horrified by Nadals behaviour.. Shriver at one point said when Nadal was grabbing at his leg-- "seems like Nadal always finds aches and pains when he's losing" and the another announcer said "the last thing anyone - esp Federer fans- want to hear is Nadal blame some injury for another loss"
What they found really disturbing was how Nadal called the umpire to check the court on match point

How desperate are Nadals tactics these days? When Roger is serving for the match Nadal runs off court for a bathroom break.He may have been quick cause he had to be but it was a pure mind tactic to upset Roger serving rhythm and it worked as Roger started having problems finding his 1st serve
Then on match point Nadal calls to stop the match!
I know it was starting to rain slightly but I doubt he would have called to stop the match if it was him who was serving at match point .Not only that,its widely regarded as an unwritten rule that when such a instance arises,the player down usually waits for the umpire to call it,they don't decide to stop playing themselves

Roger may have ignored all this but it was once again a pretty poor display of sportsmanship coming from the Spaniard

legend,
I didn't see the Roger match. but based on what I gathered from a friend and another fed fan that I respect and trust, he fought like hell but just couldn't go all the way. He was just tired. and yes, Roddick played better.
We have evidence of nadal's gamesmanship. We have no evidence of roger tanking his match. The fed "tanking" comments you're referring to are pure speculation. Rafa's gamesmanship is a fact. Are you saying with a straight face that a proven case of gamesmanship (rafa) is the same as an hypothetical situation (roger)? Mixing apples and oranges, eh?

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

reckoner wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

That is wishful thinking - Fed ran put of gas and played terribly, that is why he lost.

What do you think of Nadal's appalling gamesmanship?

Really?

So an MTO at 5-4 is gamesmanship and yet running out of gas in a match and basically tanking isn't?

Interesting.

pfff you're just trying to divert the discussion, I won't rise to it.

Not really.

Criticising one type of sportsmanship and praising another is double standards.

I am sure there are other threads for you to bash Nadal on

I think finding excuses for Federer's loss to Roddick is lame.

He lost, Roddick was better on the day. Full stop.

The ways some people carry on here, you'd think Federer is invincible and loses only when he is tired or injured, courts are slow,or by his own words the opponent plays "lucky" shots.

Give some credit to the other guy, for once!

It is also lame to constantly bash a player and be able to tell from your TV screen that he wasn't 'injured'

Flip it who needs doctors in this country when we have you lot who are clearly well versed in injuries and medicine.

lol...makes me laugh how you guys are now trawling Nadal fan sites...are you sure you arent Nadal fans in disguise and posting to ensure he stays the most talked about player in tennis?

I mean, fancy a hardcore Nadal fan on a Nadal forum only talking positives about their player? Whatever next?!

legendkillarV2 wrote:It is also lame to constantly bash a player and be able to tell from your TV screen that he wasn't 'injured'

Flip it who needs doctors in this country when we have you lot who are clearly well versed in injuries and medicine.

Was Nadal injured or stg? Didn't see that part of match, but doesn't sound good. Nadal has a history of choosing his MTOs well...Nishi was hitting forehand down the line to Nadal's backhand so well while I was watching, I thought mmm...this could be a cracking one!

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Tenez wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

No it's not disgraceful. What is the alternative? Not play Miami at all and cite tiredness instead? disappointing lots of fans and the tournament director? He doesn't tank it, he simply realises while playing that even if he could win his match v Roddick, he won;t be able to go much further anyway. It's a better way to go out than a walk over, if you ask me, or even giving up during a match. Let's not forget it's also a show and let a whole crowd enjoy their home boy win Federer is good money spent for them.

The big difference is that Federer's opponent goes through with a chance and more money while Nadal's opponent goes out and feels cheated, not quite the same is it?

You damn right I would want him to pull out!

I think a tired Roger playing nothing but exhibition at best is disgraceful to the fans and director who expects a top performance from the players.

So has Nishikori claimed he felt cheated?

Roddick's victory is tainted if Roger didn't play near his best.

Completely disagree there. What's the difference between feeling tired and being injured? (knowing the latter leads to the former). No-one is cheating anyone. I say Fed did not try to give his best. There is nothing measurable that can support what I say, it's my view, and the 1000s of fans might not have seen it. We can however measure the time Nadal takes and see his well timed MTOs again.

Good effort LK in trying to compare both cases, but they are miles apart Iam afraid. Nishi could well complain about Nadal's appauling behaviour...but you won;t hear Roddick complai about Fed's.

noleisthebest wrote:I think finding excuses for Federer's loss to Roddick is lame.

He lost, Roddick was better on the day. Full stop.

The ways some people carry on here, you'd think Federer is invincible and loses only when he is tired or injured, courts are slow,or by his own words the opponent plays "lucky" shots.

Give some credit to the other guy, for once!

I'm a bit puzzled by your comment. While I've not been following the comments on this site re the Fed loss. but where i do post regularly at another site populated with a very high percentage of Fed fans, I have not come across a single comment not giving credit to Roddick. ALL agreed he was the better player. A Fed fan even quoted fed's post-match praises to Andy, saying roddick is "a great champion".

noleisthebest wrote:I think finding excuses for Federer's loss to Roddick is lame.

He lost, Roddick was better on the day. Full stop.

The ways some people carry on here, you'd think Federer is invincible and loses only when he is tired or injured, courts are slow,or by his own words the opponent plays "lucky" shots.

Give some credit to the other guy, for once!

Oh c'mon, are we not allowed to comment on a match? Who did Nole lose to in Basel?

Believing players play with the same intensity at every match is absurd.

Fed lost 2 matches out of 20 while Roddick was top 5 in the world. Now Roddick's ranking is 30+ and playing 50+, we should be entitled to speculate on the effort Fed put on that match, and the fact he was left with 4 tough matches for the remaing 5 days is a good valid excuse.

Did I ever say he tanked a match in a semi or final v Djoko or Nadal? Please put things in perspective.

Tenez measuring the time of MTO's and when they are taken are purely circumstantial.

I am talking about gamesmanship.

Being fatigued can lead to further injury. If a player is aware of that and has a long season ahead, why take to the court? Fognini pulled out of a GS through precaution as he called it.

The evil of sponsorship has reared it's head and claimed Federer.

I agree that Nadal's water incident is disgraceful and far more disgraceful then the MTO.

I can't see how Federer's actions be justisfied when over the last year other players like for example Djokovic who was criticised for appearing at Paris because of the money when he was fatigued.

So I ask is that not double standards?

legendkillarV2 wrote:

I am talking about gamesmanship.

Being fatigued can lead to further injury. If a player is aware of that and has a long season ahead, why take to the court? Fognini pulled out of a GS through precaution as he called it.

The evil of sponsorship has reared it's head and claimed Federer.

I agree that Nadal's water incident is disgraceful and far more disgraceful then the MTO.

I can't see how Federer's actions be justisfied when over the last year other players like for example Djokovic who was criticised for appearing at Paris because of the money when he was fatigued.

So I ask is that not double standards?

But how on earth do you know whether all matches are played at 100% every time? Honestly, this is ridiculous? NITB thinks Fed gave his all, I don;t. Those are opinions, no can have a clear answer to. MTOs and more so extra time taken is measurable and is appauling behaviour.

I don;t understand how you cannot differentiate the 2.

I never criticised Djoko playing for the money in Paris. I don't criticise Nadal for tanking v Lopez at Queens. It's normal. We know Nadal woudl never lose to Lopez at Wimbledon. Be it tanking or tiredness, doesn't matter, I call this pacing oneself for the big events, which they have to do.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

I am talking about gamesmanship.

Being fatigued can lead to further injury. If a player is aware of that and has a long season ahead, why take to the court? Fognini pulled out of a GS through precaution as he called it.

The evil of sponsorship has reared it's head and claimed Federer.

I agree that Nadal's water incident is disgraceful and far more disgraceful then the MTO.

I can't see how Federer's actions be justisfied when over the last year other players like for example Djokovic who was criticised for appearing at Paris because of the money when he was fatigued.

So I ask is that not double standards?

But how on earth do you know whether all matches are played at 100% every time? Honestly, this is ridiculous? NITB thinks Fed gave his all, I don;t. Those are opinions, no can have a clear answer to. MTOs and more so extra time taken is measurable and is appauling behaviour.

I don;t understand how you cannot differentiate the 2.

I never criticised Djoko playing for the money in Paris. I don't criticise Nadal for tanking v Lopez at Queens. It's normal. We know Nadal woudl never lose to Lopez at Wimbledon. Be it tanking or tiredness, doesn't matter, I call this pacing oneself for the big events, which they have to do.

So how do you know whether a player is injured or not???

Speculation!!

I didn't see the Fed match, but people are claiming he tanked it.

What pisses me off is people criticising other players for the same thing.

You did criticise Djokovic because if you remember he had a 'niggle' and claimed because of his bonus he would show up.

Like I said, the water incident was the disgrace.

I ciriticised Ramos for his MTO against Gasquet. He cramped. Nadal wasn't told by the trainer he was cramping. So in theory he was feeling a niggle that required treatment. If there wasn't anything wrong I would think the trainers would've said something about by now given the guy has been on tour for 13 years!

lydian wrote:lol...makes me laugh how you guys are now trawling Nadal fan sites...are you sure you arent Nadal fans in disguise and posting to ensure he stays the most talked about player in tennis?

I mean, fancy a hardcore Nadal fan on a Nadal forum only talking positives about their player? Whatever next?!

No relevant comments on Nadal's gamesmanship yesterday?

Tenez remember Wimbledon last year when Nadal pulled that MTO when Delpo was on the verge of a first set victory?

That for me looked strategic and called for in terms of momentum. We can agree on that. The umpire was not going to allow it.

Yet Del Potro allowed and felt Nadal was feeling a 'legit' niggle.

Now, do you think Del Potro mis-read the MTO looking back?

I dont think Federer tanked the Roddick match as such personally. If he did then why win the 2nd set...and stretch himself to a further set up to the 6-4 scoreline? That seems counter-productive or even counter-intuitive to proper tanking. I just think Roger was prepared to play at 80% level but put no more in...if 80% was good enough then fair enough, if it wasnt he wasnt going to put anymore in...and arguably was too tired to put anymore in. Whether its in the spririt of the game is another matter but players have been doing this for years...and will always do it. None of them are angels.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

So how do you know whether a player is injured or not???

Speculation!!

I didn't see the Fed match, but people are claiming he tanked it.

What pisses me off is people criticising other players for the same thing.

You did criticise Djokovic because if you remember he had a 'niggle' and claimed because of his bonus he would show up.

Like I said, the water incident was the disgrace.

I ciriticised Ramos for his MTO against Gasquet. He cramped. Nadal wasn't told by the trainer he was cramping. So in theory he was feeling a niggle that required treatment. If there wasn't anything wrong I would think the trainers would've said something about by now given the guy has been on tour for 13 years!

How do I know if a player is injured or not? Well very easy, an injury translate into a poorer game for the player. And forget the MTO...what about extra time taking...how do I know? Well you know the answer to that.

I have not criticised Djoko for playing parisfor the money. That's why they play for. They are "professional" tennis players.

?? How do you expect a trainer to feel a pain for Nadal? He has no clue.

This is basically the same as Barcelona players diving at every opportunity. It is just appalling and the same story every time - a phantom "niggle" that only appears at crucial points when Nadal is in trouble.

Excuse it all you like it remains "lamentable".

legendkillarV2 wrote:Tenez remember Wimbledon last year when Nadal pulled that MTO when Delpo was on the verge of a first set victory?

That for me looked strategic and called for in terms of momentum. We can agree on that. The umpire was not going to allow it.

Yet Del Potro allowed and felt Nadal was feeling a 'legit' niggle.

Now, do you think Del Potro mis-read the MTO looking back?

You must have a very good eye if you can see with your naked eye when Nadal fakes a MTO or not. Cause I am sure no commentator predicts the MTO before Nadal asks for it cause as usual there is no sign of it.

lydian wrote:I dont think Federer tanked the Roddick match as such personally. If he did then why win the 2nd set...and stretch himself to a further set up to the 6-4 scoreline? That seems counter-productive or even counter-intuitive to proper tanking. I just think Roger was prepared to play at 80% level but put no more in...if 80% was good enough then fair enough, if it wasnt he wasnt going to put anymore in...and arguably was too tired to put anymore in. Whether its in the spririt of the game is another matter but players have been doing this for years...and will always do it. None of them are angels.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

So how do you know whether a player is injured or not???

Speculation!!

I didn't see the Fed match, but people are claiming he tanked it.

What pisses me off is people criticising other players for the same thing.

You did criticise Djokovic because if you remember he had a 'niggle' and claimed because of his bonus he would show up.

Like I said, the water incident was the disgrace.

I ciriticised Ramos for his MTO against Gasquet. He cramped. Nadal wasn't told by the trainer he was cramping. So in theory he was feeling a niggle that required treatment. If there wasn't anything wrong I would think the trainers would've said something about by now given the guy has been on tour for 13 years!

How do I know if a player is injured or not? Well very easy, an injury translate into a poorer game for the player. And forget the MTO...what about extra time taking...how do I know? Well you know the answer to that.

I have not criticised Djoko for playing parisfor the money. That's why they play for. They are "professional" tennis players.

?? How do you expect a trainer to feel a pain for Nadal? He has no clue.

Trust me I know physio's and they know if someone is taking the urine.

The time between points is done another thread.

The MTO is another issue that I won't speculate on.

The main issue is calling for water at 30/30. I would like Nadal fans to comment on that aspect of behaviour.

With respect, if you have an injury I dont think it automatically leads to a poorer game there and then. For example, surely you can have pain in a joint but play through it? Perhaps knowing that it could hurt you down the track though. Muscle tears are probably more of a clear issue re: performance but other injuries such as joint pain (shoulder/knee/tennis elbow), even lesser muscle strains, blisters, etc, can all be played through...but can make the player want to take a MTO. Then its just a matter of when do they, or should they, take them. I dont think this issue is black and white.

As an aside, I'm genuinely interested - has there been in recent times another player complaining there and then about someone taking a MTO? (probably has but I cant recall....people think Delpo did at SW19 last year but he was complaining about something else apparently)

Tenez wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Tenez remember Wimbledon last year when Nadal pulled that MTO when Delpo was on the verge of a first set victory?

That for me looked strategic and called for in terms of momentum. We can agree on that. The umpire was not going to allow it.

Yet Del Potro allowed and felt Nadal was feeling a 'legit' niggle.

Now, do you think Del Potro mis-read the MTO looking back?

You must have a very good eye if you can see with your naked eye when Nadal fakes a MTO or not. Cause I am sure no commentator predicts the MTO before Nadal asks for it cause as usual there is no sign of it.

Given it was 6-6 in the set and against the rules, I think that is more open to scepticism than one called at 5-4 at the change of ends.

lydian wrote:I dont think Federer tanked the Roddick match as such personally. If he did then why win the 2nd set...and stretch himself to a further set up to the 6-4 scoreline? That seems counter-productive or even counter-intuitive to proper tanking. I just think Roger was prepared to play at 80% level but put no more in...if 80% was good enough then fair enough, if it wasnt he wasnt going to put anymore in...and arguably was too tired to put anymore in. Whether its in the spririt of the game is another matter but players have been doing this for years...and will always do it. None of them are angels.

I am not saying he knew before entering the court that he was going to give the match away. Maybe he did know but that's something we can't really speculate. However the acceptance of a sweet loss might grow as the match goes on. He is tired and might think of the 4 tough matches left ahead.

At the end of the day, it's specualtion but it's something we can easily understand if we try to put ourselves in the players skin. Be it Nadal v Lopez, Nole in Paris, or Fed here.

What was the water for LK?
(I saw the figure that it extended the time between last point finished and next serve to 40 secs).

lydian wrote:What was the water for LK?
(I saw the figure that it extended the time between last point finished and next serve to 40 secs).

Nadal got 0/30 on the Nishikori serve. Nishikori pulled it back to 30/30 and Nadal asked for water to wash his hands or something. That for me was poor on Nadal's behalf.

Well yes...Federer wasnt prepared or able (we dont know which) to put in the final 20% needed. The question is whether not putting the 20% is tanking or not. I dont think it is...I think tanking is a state of mind where "I'm just going to throw the match come what may". Federer won the 2nd set 6-1 so this cant be classed as tanking really.

I've removed a couple of posts, can we lay off the insults please.

lydian wrote:With respect, if you have an injury I dont think it automatically leads to a poorer game there and then. For example, surely you can have pain in a joint but play through it? Perhaps knowing that it could hurt you down the track though. Muscle tears are probably more of a clear issue re: performance but other injuries such as joint pain (shoulder/knee/tennis elbow), even lesser muscle strains, blisters, etc, can all be played through...but can make the player want to take a MTO. Then its just a matter of when do they, or should they, take them. I dont think this issue is black and white.

As an aside, I'm genuinely interested - has there been in recent times another player complaining there and then about someone taking a MTO? (probably has but I cant recall....people think Delpo did at SW19 last year but he was complaining about something else apparently)

But they all have niggle so they could in theory stop and take a MTO any time too, however few do. Nadal does often and systematically at key moments....like here at 5/4.

Petzchner complained too v Nadal, but many more too. Though it's more questioning the validity of the MTO than complaining about it....but that's the same to me.

Does seem odd doing that...not something I've seen him do before either.
I genuinely dont think Nadal is a bad sport but that particular moment is shall we say "poor judgement".

lydian wrote:Well yes...Federer wasnt prepared or able (we dont know which) to put in the final 20% needed. The question is whether not putting the 20% is tanking or not. I dont think it is...I think tanking is a state of mind where "I'm just going to throw the match come what may". Federer won the 2nd set 6-1 so this cant be classed as tanking really.

Neither do I. I use the word tanking as a way of saying he could have won, let's say had it been a final. He just chose to listen to his body and take a rest.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

lydian wrote:What was the water for LK?
(I saw the figure that it extended the time between last point finished and next serve to 40 secs).

Nadal got 0/30 on the Nishikori serve. Nishikori pulled it back to 30/30 and Nadal asked for water to wash his hands or something. That for me was poor on Nadal's behalf.

you cannot be serous !

Hmm but didnt Petzchner himself take a MTO during that match?
Look as always I'm not here to defend Nadal blindly, some MTOs are called at interesting moments I'll grant but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt in that I think he genuinely thinks he's doing it at the critical moment for him knowing the next game is crucial, not to disrupt the other player per se. The problem is that it can be perceived as negative, and is perceived as negative by his detractors clearly, and so he doesnt help himself. But I really dont believe he's the "win at all costs" type of player he's made out to be on here. He's no angel either...but then are any of them?

Tenez wrote:

lydian wrote:Well yes...Federer wasnt prepared or able (we dont know which) to put in the final 20% needed. The question is whether not putting the 20% is tanking or not. I dont think it is...I think tanking is a state of mind where "I'm just going to throw the match come what may". Federer won the 2nd set 6-1 so this cant be classed as tanking really.

Neither do I. I use the word tanking as a way of saying he could have won, let's say had it been a final. He just chose to listen to his body and take a rest.

...or perhaps rather,he listened to his body and realised he better not put in another 20% needed to win or it might cost him down the track. Not so much a specific MTO as a general TTO (tiredness time-out, lol).

lydian wrote:Hmm but didnt Petzchner himself take a MTO during that match?
Look as always I'm not here to defend Nadal blindly, some MTOs are called at interesting moments I'll grant but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt in that I think he genuinely thinks he's doing it at the critical moment for him knowing the next game is crucial, not to disrupt the other player per se. The problem is that it can be perceived as negative, and is perceived as negative by his detractors clearly, and so he doesnt help himself. But I really dont believe he's the "win at all costs" type of player he's made out to be on here. He's no angel either...but then are any of them?

Fed's pretty clean in that way, I must say. So is Murray. Davy, Ferrer, Tsonga etc..most players infact.

Nadal stands out as he is a former number one, and you just have to clean your act as a number one.

Fair comment.

I saw the Federer match and sadly it was clear TMF was unable to get that extra 20%.

I suppose it's a testament to his (former) abilities that people think he had a choice in the matter.

Whenever these familiar arguments rear their head - MTO's, delays between points etc etc, (and even alleged 'tanking') it's hard not to think back to a time when such issues simply didn't feature on the tennis scene

You can't turn back the clock, nor would I even want to. Lots of good things and players have enhanced the sport over the years, and I imagine spectator numbers are at an all-time high.

But all that said ....... Borg went out there, played his game, won five Wimby titles on the bounce and of course six French too. All by the age of 25, and not a hint of controversy or questionable behaviour along the way.

Bjorn Borg ...... you da man !!

lags72 wrote:
But all that said ....... Borg went out there, played his game, won five Wimby titles on the bounce and of course six French too. All by the age of 25, and not a hint of controversy or questionable behaviour along the way.

Bjorn Borg ...... you da man !!

and ran for dear life as soon as another player got his number...

Good spot. He's had a great run of late...the tank (pardon the thread pun) was likely to run dry at some point. Like the Californian governor he'll be back...

NITB, thats a bit harsh. Borg, like Wilander (maybe its a swedish thing) suddently grew tired of the sport he had come to dominate quickly and had a lot going on off-court. Yes he had some run ins with McEnroe but dont forget he had been grinding on tour at top level for 8 seasons by then.

Agree lags, Bjorn is a complete legend of the game in many ways (he was no angel off-court - to coin todays phrase - either by the way, but on court he was the man as you say). I wonder how many people were inspired by Bjorn...even that "staying cool" way of blowing on your fingers at crunch moments was copied by tennis players down the line in the heat of battle inc. Sampras and Federer who copied it.

Hmm ...... really not so sure that he ran "for dear life" as you put it nitb

And that's certainly not the way Mac himself recalls Borg's decision to retire when he talks about it in his (excellent ) auotobiog 'Serious'

The Borg / Mac rivalry came to an end with their h2h neatly tied at 7-7.

Mac undoubtedly got the better of Borg in their last few 'big match' clashes ; and what might or might not have happened had Borg stuck around can only ever be a matter of pure speculation.

But what is fact is that Mac - even with his great rival gone from the scene - never managed to win another Slam himself beyond the tender age at which Borg had retired (ie 25), despite playing on for several more years.

lags, I like what Arthur Ashe said about Borg...."I think Bjorn could have won the U.S. Open. I think he could have won the Grand Slam. But by the time he left, the historical challenge didn't mean anything. He was bigger than the game. He was like Elvis or Liz Taylor or somebody."

Mac was quite depressed after Borg left tour as he was the only guy McEnroe respected and looked up to as a competitor. After Borg left, Mac felt the wind had been knocked out of his sails and tried hard to stop Borg quitting.

lydian wrote:Hmm but didnt Petzchner himself take a MTO during that match?

Yes Petchy too took an MTO in that match? So what??? What was the situation in the match that he took that MTO? How many such 'timely' MTOs ( if any ) have you seen Petchy take in his career. How did he play after the MTO? Was is running like a hare all around with no sign of any injury after the 3 min treatment? Have you ever heard any player complain about Petchy's MTOs?

lydian wrote: Look as always I'm not here to defend Nadal blindly, some MTOs are called at interesting moments I'll grant but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt in that I think he genuinely thinks he's doing it at the critical moment for him knowing the next game is crucial, not to disrupt the other player per se.

How many times do you tend to give Nadal a benefit of doubt? He is a repeat offender and does it more often than all players put together. Even I can give a benefit of doubt to a player if its a one-off thing. But you'll give him benefit of doubt because you are a fan. Else its impossible not question it with the regularity he does it, the timing of those interruptions, the injuries that disappear completely with not a sign after only a 3 min treatment, calling for a trainer when trainer is on court and doing nothing... etc etc.. there are so many incidents its hard to put those.

lydian wrote:The problem is that it can be perceived as negative, and is perceived as negative by his detractors clearly, and so he doesnt help himself. But I really dont believe he's the "win at all costs" type of player he's made out to be on here. He's no angel either...but then are any of them

Can you distinguish what is negative? It is perceived as negative because it is negative. Its not only negative, its a disgrace. You can't perceive because you are too blinded by your love for Nadal and can't see it. Or you too like Nadal believe "win at all costs" is fine. Actually I do remember you saying this once that its all about winning, nothing else. Perfect then.

Hadn't heard that comment by Ashe before lydian.

Intriguing - and perhaps slightly odd - comparison with the likes of Elvis and (especially!) Liz Taylor. But I do see the point he's making about Borg being bigger than the game. I guess the Borg phenomenon was about more than just tennis, in the same way that The Beatles were about more than music. Another comparison ! (although I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to make that one ......)

Mac was, as you say, thoroughly demotivated in the wake of Bjorn's departure :
"It took me a couple of years to start improving again" Mac writes in his book.

He does overreact alot.

Imagine Rafa playing rugby?

A bigger baby than "Charlie bit my finger" video.

ROTLA...I refuse to converse with you, your posts just shout "aggression" (...but I use that term only mildly) in my opinion. You need to chill out. We're all fans of tennis here right? Thanks for the reply though

Yes lags, I think Borg started the modern iconic status of tennis players. He provided the perfect dichotomy of a high performing sports star and a guy who was as cool as ice with a very individual look...kind of similar to the Clint Eastwood persona. People tapped into that greatly and he did transcend the game and brought it from the drier 60s/70s into a new approach. After all he was the first guy to use topspin just about all the time on his drives, espcially the BH where his DHBH was more unusual, especially to have high spin on it (compared to say Connors). Yep, it hit Mac hard...he had lost his nemesis and driver for improvement.

In some respects you could imagine Nadal having "suffered" similarly if Federer left the game back in say 2008. The great rivalries often define the players themselves and provide a raison d'etre for their push forward.

lydian wrote:ROTLA...I refuse to converse with you, your posts just shout "aggression" (...but I use that term only mildly) in my opinion. You need to chill out. We're all fans of tennis here right? Thanks for the reply though

This aggression wasn't uncalled for. You brought out Petschner's name in attempt to divert the discussion. You wanted to show as if since he too took the MTO and hence nadal's MTO case can be ignored. You keep telling no one is an angel repeatedly.. just to hide the fact that Nadal is tainted.

"this aggression wasn't uncalled for"....well that just about sums it up nicely.

No, I brought out the fact MTOs go on all over the place even in the same match that was brought up against Nadal. Murray had one last night too. Nadal had a very close match against Tsonga, in the end. Did he have one last night because surely he must have "needed" one as it got close right? No he didn't.
Nadal is tainted....to you and by goodness don't we hear it daily on here. It's squeezing the life out of the forum.

But my opinion can be deemed less valid than yours anyway as according to your post on the Enough is Enough thread as a Nadal fan what do I know about the game? We all bow to your superior logic, opinion and knowledge

Valid points lydian

You would think if MTO's were tactical you would do it against higher ranked players surely?

What was the match length?

2hours 49min

Have to say I was surprised... at 4-4 in the final set just before Tsonga was about to serve, clearly Nadal needed to unsettle the Frenchmen to get the break and leave him serving for the match.
Why oh why didnt he "pull a Nishikori"? Or a toilet break, wash his hands, even go for a quick off-court shower?
What was Nadal thinking...how could he have missed the strategic MTO opportunity!!!
He's losing his edge, thats all I can say.

Instead what did he do - he had to rely on his talent of shotmaking instead....fancy that?
As one match report commented: "BREAK! Wow! What a shot by Nadal! It's one of those trademark whipped forehands down the line that seems to bend more than a Beckham free-kick in the air to get around Tsonga's outstretched arm and racquet! The Spaniard continues the momentum created by that shot and when Tsonga double faults, he has a break point! Nadal controls the point from start to finish... Tsonga hits one long and Nadal will now serve for the match for a second time!"

Murray came through 10 minutes less than Nadal and including an MTO.

Are you sure Nadal did not take an MTO or go pay his gas bill during the match?