POOR SPORTSMANSHIP

by Veejay Sun 18 Mar 2012, 3:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

In light of all the celebrations,we are over looking something very disturbing thats rotting our game from within
If Roger had lost it would certainly have been a serious topic so I see no reason why it shouldn't be highlighted regardless of the out come

On ESPN Pam Shriver and Cahill were pretty horrified by Nadals behaviour.. Shriver at one point said when Nadal was grabbing at his leg-- "seems like Nadal always finds aches and pains when he's losing" and the another announcer said "the last thing anyone - esp Federer fans- want to hear is Nadal blame some injury for another loss"
What they found really disturbing was how Nadal called the umpire to check the court on match point

How desperate are Nadals tactics these days? When Roger is serving for the match Nadal runs off court for a bathroom break.He may have been quick cause he had to be but it was a pure mind tactic to upset Roger serving rhythm and it worked as Roger started having problems finding his 1st serve
Then on match point Nadal calls to stop the match!
I know it was starting to rain slightly but I doubt he would have called to stop the match if it was him who was serving at match point .Not only that,its widely regarded as an unwritten rule that when such a instance arises,the player down usually waits for the umpire to call it,they don't decide to stop playing themselves

Roger may have ignored all this but it was once again a pretty poor display of sportsmanship coming from the Spaniard

by Tenez Wed 21 Mar 2012, 4:33 pm

Kemet

1 - It's a one off from Fed (exceptional). Had he done it 3 or 4 times over his 10 years on the tour, maybe we could suggest he did it to break the momentum of his opponent. But that's not the case. I could think of many more times where it woudl have been more profiatble to him but he did not.

2 - He did it after having won teh set I believe....not after having lost it. Quite different. So no breaking of his opponent's momentum. That is crucial when comparing with Nadal's many MTOs.

3 - Fed did it to allow best conds for both. A bit like wating a bit for rwet court to dry. There it was to allow contrasting lights to fade.

I am happy to question Federer's behaviour if questionable, but doing it just to show a balanced view, is not my style.

by TRuffin Wed 21 Mar 2012, 4:36 pm

socal1976 wrote:I love it not only are you guys sore losers you are sore winners as well. I don't even know why I bothered reading this.

PS I hear Nadal was the second gunmen on the grassy knoll in Dallas in 1963.

Yes, I was watching the broadcast when Shriver said what she said. And it was not as vehment as you present it. Roger was in clear control and I think Shriver was saying that Roger's fans would be very annoyed if N
Nadal withdrew or called an MTO. Hardly, controversial statement. The guy stretch's out his leg and that is bad sportsmanship, I suppose if you say so.

Why is he being a sore winner by pointing out a very legitamite issue in tennis, and Nadal. You can't for one second think that Nadal didn't purposely take the bathroom break and call for an umpire check on match point. Put aside whether a fan or not of either player and just look at it objectively--- Nadal was trying to disrupt Federer-- that's just a fact.. We also know as fans of tennis, that its wrong.

Ignore it if you want, insult the messanger who brings it to you, but that doesn't erase the fact that Veejay is 100% correct.

by TRuffin Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:01 pm

Veejay wrote:
Henman Bill wrote:"best evil" is pretty funny.

Anyway, in my opinion players should be timing their toilet breaks so they don't occur at 5-4. I guess you need to remember to go at 4-3. Or maybe they should be allowed one at 5-5 instead?

As for the match point, I think Rafa should have waited one point more. Better to assess at deuce. You have to think of the fans, too. They've got homes to go to. What if the delay by Rafa ultimately allows the rain to get in and cause a 4 hour delay for 15,000 spectators?

However I thought I heard FEderer say a "come on" on a double fault so let's not get too anti-Rafa...

The thing about these sort of medical time outs,toilet breaks etc is a regular tactic by Nadal that he uses/abuses to gain an unfair advantage over his opponent by upsetting their rhythm or stealing their momentum away from them
There is always something with the guy
Federer saying "come one" is hardly the same as that doesn't have a direct effect on the outcome of a match

Exactly VeeJay-- it's easy to point out a flaw with any player including Federer from time to time-- they are human for goodness sakes-- no one- not any of us goes to work every day or at home and doesn't say or do the wrong thing from time to time.. It's when it's constant or habitiual that criticism is truly warranted... and Nadal has proven time and time again that he's willing to do these things to try and disrupt an opponent- esp when down.... There is nothing wrong with pointing this out, and it would actually warrant a good discussion if everyone could look at it without a fanview.

by Veejay Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:05 pm

lydian wrote:Veejay....I just cant quite put my finger on it but something about your posts the past 2 months tell me you're not Nadal's biggest fan?

You cannot blame me,I used to be a fan but he has made it impossible for me to support him.No player is above the game for me and I really don't believe a true tennis fan would never support a player who breaks or bends the rules and cheats at every given opportunity
I have 0 respect for the guy,I think he is an absolute disgrace,he is sports ( not just tennis) biggest fake/fraud and his poor sportsmanship disgusts me

by Guest Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:10 pm

Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:Why does Nadal, The #2 Greatest of all Time, in his own righ, want to do things that will only stain and reduce the lustre of his legacy?

Here is my daily special quote of the day, an answer to the above question I posed re Nadal's gamesmanship:

“I had it explained to me by several in the know people that much of it
stems from the Spanish sports culture. Even from hundreds of years ago, the
Spanish upper class had a theory of there is glory in winning by deception, and
that's permeated through all their sports and cultures. It's actually
celebrated if you can win while using some trip up your sleeve or not getting
caught. That's partly why the Spanish have such a poor sportsmanship reputation
in al their sports and an inordinate amount of caught cheaters given their
size. In some ways- itps prob not Nadals fault. he very well could be a nice
guy- but he has beeen taught since a child by people he loves ,respecet- his
family, his leaders- that it's okay to win by any means necessary- as long as you
win.
so when he denies things with a straight face- he's prob thining there is
nothign wrong with that because his whole life he has been told that if he can
pull off deception- its a good thing. You see it through many cultures, gypsies
being one obvious example. We know Tony is a blatant cheat and he has created
in Nadal a - you and i together have to do these things to win, just deny and
it's glorious to pull it off.” Courtesy, TRuffin
Ruffin may be right but we cant make excuses for Nadal.He knows what he does is fundamentally wrong in the spirit of sport and its frowned upon so he should know better
Every time he resorts to such tactics it taints his win,and this seems to be a problem thats getting a little out of hand with him.He never used to do this before,but now its getting worse and worse
As some others have said,we need to draw the line somewhere

Hold it, Veejay, you’ve misunderstood. Crying or Very sad

Ruffin’s
quote serves only one key purpose to answer my question re why Rafa has no
problem with gamesmanship that should be absolutely unacceptable in most
western cultures. The quoted material doesn’t go anywhere near addressing the
problem of gamesmanship itself.

I say rafa’s victim of a pro-cheating
tradition doesn’t mean I accept his gamesmanship at all. It only means I’ve
fulfilled a need to understand the reasons why he cheats (on court couching
being the worse violation) to win, even when he knows that such blatant
gamesmanship will ultimately hurt his legacy. Wanting to understand the roots
of a problem does not mean wanting to make excuses for that problem. Those are
two different concerns. Is that ok?

I understand. Your concern lies strictly with
the problem and it’s consequences in rafa’s favour while unfair to others. That’s
a different story I already know too well. The story of injustice, the stink of
foul play, the horror of a dishonest contestant…. But then again, “cheating” is
perceived, interpreted and reinterpreted differently from one fan to another. Many
Nadal fans still defend his indefensible run to the bathroom at match-point in
roger’s favour, although it’s revolting; it makes me want to throw up. But that’s
just me. POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 590675

by Tenez Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:14 pm

Veejay wrote:
lydian wrote:Veejay....I just cant quite put my finger on it but something about your posts the past 2 months tell me you're not Nadal's biggest fan?

You cannot blame me,I used to be a fan but he has made it impossible for me to support him.No player is above the game for me and I really don't believe a true tennis fan would never support a player who breaks or bends the rules and cheats at every given opportunity
I have 0 respect for the guy,I think he is an absolute disgrace,he is sports ( not just tennis) biggest fake/fraud and his poor sportsmanship disgusts me

Right! that confirms your position!

I used to be Nadal's fans ennemy number 1. I think you can take over now.

by Veejay Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:17 pm

kemet wrote:Well to be fair and to inject some objectivity into this conversation, Roger has done this also, albeit not during the course of play, but at the end of the first set of a match. Here's an article from his 2010 match with Davydenko, which indicates his bathroom break (I bolded that portion of the article):

By Kevin Garside, Chief Sports Writer, in Melbourne

12:00PM GMT 27 Jan 2010

Roger Federer was invited to have a go and did not know where he was at the end of a match described by Brad Gilbert as the craziest he had ever seen.

Federer won the third set to love while hitting only two winners off his own bat. And this after Davydenko had Federer lunging around the baseline like a novice.

At a set and a break down Federer appeared cooked, his run of 22 consecutive grand slam semi-finals at an end. Then Davydenko did what only he can; he morphed into someone else, someone who had never hit a tennis ball before.

At least Goran Ivanisevic only had good Goran and Bad Goran to worry about. Who knows how many Nikolays are running around in Davydenko’s head.

He had only to lift the ball over the net to establish a lead of 6-2, 4-1. Instead he buried the ball in it and would not win another game for an hour.

During that grim sequence, in which 13 consecutive games were pillaged by Federer, Davydenko was pronounced dead on court before being upgraded by Gilbert to the rank of zombie.

The BBC should consider a bid to ESPN for the services of Gilbert before the January transfer window closes. He would make some strike partner for John McEnroe at Wimbledon. It was hard to disagree with his assessment of Davydenko, who had no explanation for his sudden decline.

Asked how he felt during the winless streak, he raised his arms and smiled: “P***** off. Everything was s***. Come on guys. What can you do? Go home tomorrow and relax.”

From the edge of oblivion Davydenko suddenly returned to himself in the fourth set, breaking back as Federer served for the match.

“When he hit those returns I though it was so unnecessary, you know. I was saying why now? Why not some other time when it wasn’t so important,” Federer said. “Match point, I send down a great serve and he blocks it back. I did not have a chance to play the point.”

Federer, as he mostly always does, got there in the end to stretch the semi-final elastic band to an unprecedented 23. Of those he has won all but three.

“Ladies and gentleman, the master is in the house - 23 consecutive grand slam semi-finals,” was how the stadium announcer hailed our hero.

Federer looked almost embarrassed at the fuss being made of him. He recognised that caprice played as much a part in this journey as his racket.

“I knew I wasn’t looking very good. But I wasn’t panicking. It is the best of five sets. I just relaxed and thought if the sun goes and maybe his level drops a little bit the whole match might change for the better. It did. I can’t believe the way it changed, you know.

“It is incredible looking back how many years that I have been able to deliver a grand slam semi, especially this year. Looking at the draw with Hewitt in the fourth round and Davydenko in the quarters I knew it was going to be tough.

"I thought I was not going to make it this time. You are always worried that your streak is going to be broken. I stopped thinking about it after the second round and just started to concentrate on the tournament. It’s definitely one of the most amazing things I have done.”

Federer made 11 unforced errors in the opening three games. The first went to five deuces before Federer prevailed. He was 4-1 down in 20 minutes. It could have been five had Davydenko converted the break points in the opening game.

Federer opted for the bathroom break after the first set. Judging by the prolonged time it took to go through his ablutions the principal motive for the hiatus was not the need to spend a penny.

It made no noticeable difference. Having hung on just to his opening service game, Federer was torched by Davydenko’s howitzer returns in his second. The Russian was behaving like a Bolshevik in 1917 St Petersburg; irreverent beyond belief.

The spell was broken when Davydenko netted an easy pass, which would have given him a 4-1 lead. Federer fed on the momentum swing to hold on to his serve and break back in the next.

Davydenko was back in his box, barely able to put the ball in court. Federer broke again en route to taking the set. That was that save for Davydenko’s weird rally at the close.

“I can’t explain what happened,” Davydenko said. “I was confident in the beginning. I have so many chances to make that break in the second, I know if I take one I can win the match. But something changed. I don’t know what happened. I could not win any more games. Maybe Federer was lucky today. Again.” That raised a laugh.

Federer will play Tsonga in the semi-finals after his five-set victory over Novak Djokovic.

Djokovic, who quit with heat stroke in the quarter-finals last year, left the court during the fourth set for another medical timeout and threw up in the locker room.

On this occasion he returned to complete the match but that did not change the outcome.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/australianopen/7081743/Australian-Open-2010-Roger-Federer-beats-Nikolay-Davydenko-to-reach-semi-finals.html

How do you know Federer didn't need the bathroom?
Why didn't Federer take a bathroom break when he was losing to Berdych at Wimbledon or when he was losing to Nadal at any of their RG finals? Or in any other match he was losing?
I dont recall seeing a bathroom break when he was losing to Nadal at this years AO or blaming the loss on some injury,or calling a medical time out
If Roger was using bathrooms breaks the way Nadal uses medical time outs you would have a leg to stand on but at the moment,2 bathrooms breaks as poor sportsmanship is just speculation
If Nadal had gone to the bathroom once or twice throughout his career this wouldn't be an issue but he does this in almost every match he is about to lose,its not just a bathroom break,theres phantom injuries,constant lies about his injury diagnoses,the constant on court coaching,breaking the serving time limit rule and food poisoning
He calls trainers on creating drama when theres nothing wrong with him,he is always "injured" but yet never looks injured and miraculously after abusing medical time outs the injury is nowhere to be seen or heard of in the next match and then you see him in the final or winning the tournament
He has also been accused of various forms of "bullying" making his opponents wait for him all the time etc...
On top of all of that he is also part of the Spanish Federation... Very Happy

by Veejay Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:21 pm

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:
lydian wrote:Veejay....I just cant quite put my finger on it but something about your posts the past 2 months tell me you're not Nadal's biggest fan?

You cannot blame me,I used to be a fan but he has made it impossible for me to support him.No player is above the game for me and I really don't believe a true tennis fan would never support a player who breaks or bends the rules and cheats at every given opportunity
I have 0 respect for the guy,I think he is an absolute disgrace,he is sports ( not just tennis) biggest fake/fraud and his poor sportsmanship disgusts me

Right! that confirms your position!

I used to be Nadal's fans ennemy number 1. I think you can take over now.

Gladly Tenez,but they better know what they are up against.I will make 7 straight loses look like honeymoon trip! Very Happy

by Veejay Wed 21 Mar 2012, 5:32 pm

CommonSense wrote:
Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:Why does Nadal, The #2 Greatest of all Time, in his own righ, want to do things that will only stain and reduce the lustre of his legacy?

Here is my daily special quote of the day, an answer to the above question I posed re Nadal's gamesmanship:

“I had it explained to me by several in the know people that much of it
stems from the Spanish sports culture. Even from hundreds of years ago, the
Spanish upper class had a theory of there is glory in winning by deception, and
that's permeated through all their sports and cultures. It's actually
celebrated if you can win while using some trip up your sleeve or not getting
caught. That's partly why the Spanish have such a poor sportsmanship reputation
in al their sports and an inordinate amount of caught cheaters given their
size. In some ways- itps prob not Nadals fault. he very well could be a nice
guy- but he has beeen taught since a child by people he loves ,respecet- his
family, his leaders- that it's okay to win by any means necessary- as long as you
win.
so when he denies things with a straight face- he's prob thining there is
nothign wrong with that because his whole life he has been told that if he can
pull off deception- its a good thing. You see it through many cultures, gypsies
being one obvious example. We know Tony is a blatant cheat and he has created
in Nadal a - you and i together have to do these things to win, just deny and
it's glorious to pull it off.” Courtesy, TRuffin
Ruffin may be right but we cant make excuses for Nadal.He knows what he does is fundamentally wrong in the spirit of sport and its frowned upon so he should know better
Every time he resorts to such tactics it taints his win,and this seems to be a problem thats getting a little out of hand with him.He never used to do this before,but now its getting worse and worse
As some others have said,we need to draw the line somewhere

Hold it, Veejay, you’ve misunderstood. Ruffin’s
quote serves only one key purpose to answer my question re why Rafa has no
problem with gamesmanship that should be absolutely unacceptable in most
western cultures. The quoted material doesn’t go anywhere near addressing the
problem of gamesmanship itself.

I say rafa’s victim of a pro-cheating
tradition doesn’t mean I accept his gamesmanship at all. It only means I’ve
fulfilled a need to understand the reasons why he cheats (on court couching
being the worse violation) to win, even when he knows that such blatant
gamesmanship will ultimately hurt his legacy. Wanting to understand the roots
of a problem does not mean wanting to make excuses for that problem. Those are
two different concerns. Is that ok?

I understand. Your concern lies strictly with
the problem and it’s consequences in rafa’s favour while unfair to others. That’s
a different story I already know too well. The story of injustice, the stink of
foul play, the horror of a dishonest contestant…. But then again, “cheating” is
perceived, interpreted and reinterpreted differently from one fan to another. Many
Nadal fans still defend his indefensible run to the bathroom at match-point in
roger’s favour, although it’s revolting; it makes me want to throw up. But that’s
just me.

I agreed with Ruffin when he said this to me before but I don't really buy it as an excuse or where its coming from
I know you're Ferrer fan,do we ever see this kind of behaviour from Ferrer?
He seems to be one of the best sportsman out there when it comes to sportsmanship
I dot think I have ever seen him do anything remotely close to what Nadal does
Verdasco does get coached from the stand but I don't think I have ever seen Ferrer look up t his box
This whole " blame it one Spanish culture" may have some truth in it but of that the case why isn't Ferrer as big a cheat as Nadal is?

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 21 Mar 2012, 6:08 pm

kemet,

I normally do not like words of sports writers being used as blue prints. I prefer people using their own understanding to draw conclusions. Sports writers have a job of selling news, their words will always be motivated with that interest.

Federer was asked about that Toilet break in the after match interviews. He said that during that time, the sun was halfway covering the court, and its was causing him problems. I have played in that kind of situation and I know it doesn't feel good, more so when you are down. I almost always hear commentators talk in any match how that half-way covering shadow may affect players. Fed said he needed the toilet break but it also allowed time for the shadow to cover the about entire court ( and not just one half). It happened during the end of 1st set. Not when Davy was serving for the set. Totally unlike using MTO when Fed just missed a set point and is about to serve of the set (FO 2011), and like ( Hamburg 2008 ). Benefit of doubt?? I can give him this on this occasion. Fed is no repeat offender.

by Guest Wed 21 Mar 2012, 6:56 pm

Oh, Veejay, I wanna hit you over the head POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 56390

No body ever says his gamesmanship is justifiable/excusable/ or can be blamed on his culture or anything.

The other Spanish players don’t cheat doesn’t mean the pro-cheating culture in their
country doesn’t exist, it merely means they are not influenced by that custom.
Better yet, they rejected that custom. They’re individuals. They’ve the freedom
to choose what values to accept or reject in their own culture. Say if you’re
from South Africa, there must be certain South African cultural
values you don’t agree with and don't follow, right? A culture can only go so far to
exert an impact on a given individual. We’re not products churned out of a
machine. Ferrer and Vadesco simply chose a different approach. But Nadal’s camp chose to cheat.

by Veejay Wed 21 Mar 2012, 8:04 pm

CommonSense wrote:Oh, Veejay, I wanna hit you over the head

No body ever says his gamesmanship is justifiable/excusable/ or can be blamed on his culture or anything.

The other Spanish players don’t cheat doesn’t mean the pro-cheating culture in their
country doesn’t exist, it merely means they are not influenced by that custom.
Better yet, they rejected that custom. They’re individuals. They’ve the freedom
to choose what values to accept or reject in their own culture. Say if you’re
from South Africa, there must be certain South African cultural
values you don’t agree with and don't follow, right? A culture can only go so far to
exert an impact on a given individual. We’re not products churned out of a
machine. Ferrer and Vadesco simply chose a different approach. But Nadal’s camp chose to cheat.

I know you're not trying to justify his sportsmanship,Im just adding my 2 cents
Not all Spanish athletes do what Nadal does so its clearly a choice more then a cultural thing

by Tenez Wed 21 Mar 2012, 8:20 pm

Tenez wrote:Kemet

1 - It's a one off from Fed (exceptional). Had he done it 3 or 4 times over his 10 years on the tour, maybe we could suggest he did it to break the momentum of his opponent. But that's not the case. I could think of many more times where it woudl have been more profiatble to him but he did not.

2 - He did it after having won teh set I believe....not after having lost it. Quite different. So no breaking of his opponent's momentum. That is crucial when comparing with Nadal's many MTOs.

3 - Fed did it to allow best conds for both. A bit like wating a bit for rwet court to dry. There it was to allow contrasting lights to fade.

I am happy to question Federer's behaviour if questionable, but doing it just to show a balanced view, is not my style.

Actually after watching the clip again it seems that Fed took his break after the first set....and not at 1 set all. But 1 - he did wait for the end of the set. 2 - he did not bother Davydenko cause he managed to lead 3/1 and 2 points for 4/1 double break in the second set.

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 10:25 am

Tenez wrote:
Veejay wrote:
lydian wrote:Veejay....I just cant quite put my finger on it but something about your posts the past 2 months tell me you're not Nadal's biggest fan?

You cannot blame me,I used to be a fan but he has made it impossible for me to support him.No player is above the game for me and I really don't believe a true tennis fan would never support a player who breaks or bends the rules and cheats at every given opportunity
I have 0 respect for the guy,I think he is an absolute disgrace,he is sports ( not just tennis) biggest fake/fraud and his poor sportsmanship disgusts me

Right! that confirms your position!

I used to be Nadal's fans ennemy number 1. I think you can take over now.

When is the Inauguration Ceremony? POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 1755038253

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 10:30 am

More like a knighthood...
Sir Veejay..has quite a nice ring to it innit?
"I knight thee Sir Veejay,order of the tennis empire who is personally responsible for the demise and banishment of several fraudulent and serial cheating players "
Me encanta Smile

by TRuffin Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:07 pm

Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:
Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:Why does Nadal, The #2 Greatest of all Time, in his own righ, want to do things that will only stain and reduce the lustre of his legacy?

Here is my daily special quote of the day, an answer to the above question I posed re Nadal's gamesmanship:

“I had it explained to me by several in the know people that much of it
stems from the Spanish sports culture. Even from hundreds of years ago, the
Spanish upper class had a theory of there is glory in winning by deception, and
that's permeated through all their sports and cultures. It's actually
celebrated if you can win while using some trip up your sleeve or not getting
caught. That's partly why the Spanish have such a poor sportsmanship reputation
in al their sports and an inordinate amount of caught cheaters given their
size. In some ways- itps prob not Nadals fault. he very well could be a nice
guy- but he has beeen taught since a child by people he loves ,respecet- his
family, his leaders- that it's okay to win by any means necessary- as long as you
win.
so when he denies things with a straight face- he's prob thining there is
nothign wrong with that because his whole life he has been told that if he can
pull off deception- its a good thing. You see it through many cultures, gypsies
being one obvious example. We know Tony is a blatant cheat and he has created
in Nadal a - you and i together have to do these things to win, just deny and
it's glorious to pull it off.” Courtesy, TRuffin
Ruffin may be right but we cant make excuses for Nadal.He knows what he does is fundamentally wrong in the spirit of sport and its frowned upon so he should know better
Every time he resorts to such tactics it taints his win,and this seems to be a problem thats getting a little out of hand with him.He never used to do this before,but now its getting worse and worse
As some others have said,we need to draw the line somewhere

Hold it, Veejay, you’ve misunderstood. Ruffin’s
quote serves only one key purpose to answer my question re why Rafa has no
problem with gamesmanship that should be absolutely unacceptable in most
western cultures. The quoted material doesn’t go anywhere near addressing the
problem of gamesmanship itself.

I say rafa’s victim of a pro-cheating
tradition doesn’t mean I accept his gamesmanship at all. It only means I’ve
fulfilled a need to understand the reasons why he cheats (on court couching
being the worse violation) to win, even when he knows that such blatant
gamesmanship will ultimately hurt his legacy. Wanting to understand the roots
of a problem does not mean wanting to make excuses for that problem. Those are
two different concerns. Is that ok?

I understand. Your concern lies strictly with
the problem and it’s consequences in rafa’s favour while unfair to others. That’s
a different story I already know too well. The story of injustice, the stink of
foul play, the horror of a dishonest contestant…. But then again, “cheating” is
perceived, interpreted and reinterpreted differently from one fan to another. Many
Nadal fans still defend his indefensible run to the bathroom at match-point in
roger’s favour, although it’s revolting; it makes me want to throw up. But that’s
just me.

I agreed with Ruffin when he said this to me before but I don't really buy it as an excuse or where its coming from
I know you're Ferrer fan,do we ever see this kind of behaviour from Ferrer?
He seems to be one of the best sportsman out there when it comes to sportsmanship
I dot think I have ever seen him do anything remotely close to what Nadal does
Verdasco does get coached from the stand but I don't think I have ever seen Ferrer look up t his box
This whole " blame it one Spanish culture" may have some truth in it but of that the case why isn't Ferrer as big a cheat as Nadal is?

Yes, that's the flip side... Yes, Nadal was raised that way, his culture is that way.......but in the end like ferrer, he's an indvidual who could choose a different path... so in that respect- that is where Nadal deserves the blame-- he could stand up and say "enough, I can win without these games and methods" So it's a combination of both... but isn't that how all of life is. Many people are raised in violent gang cultures and some choose to better themselves, but others choose to remain in that culture... Now you can say-- the guy was raised that way and doens't know better and that's true, but like others- he could choose the different path and for that he is to blame.. same as Nadal.

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:43 pm

Well said Ruffin Very Happy

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:48 pm

Veejay wrote:More like a knighthood...
Sir Veejay..has quite a nice ring to it innit?

Me encanta

Lo siento, no me gusta "innit". Carmbiarlo!

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:53 pm

CommonSense wrote:
Veejay wrote:More like a knighthood...
Sir Veejay..has quite a nice ring to it innit?

Me encanta

Lo siento, no me gusta "innit". Carmbiarlo!

jajaja que fuerte...:P

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 4:24 pm

TRuffin & Veejay,

While I agree with most of Ruffin's reasoning, I cannot bring myself to blame a youngster who probably didn't have the required mental resources to go against the wrong cultural influence imposed on him by his own family. Rather, I feel sorry for him as a young victim.

I say this bc I'm thinking about young girls being sold to prostitution in SE ASia. Most of them NEVER escape living in the brothel for the rest of their productive life, EVEN when they are subsequently given the choice.
A reporter once published a case where he "bought" out one of these young prostitutes and started to pay out of his own pocket for the girl to start a new life with a new career. Guess what happened? After a couple of years, the "liberated" girl returned to the brothel by her own free will. Life in the brothel was what she knew and felt comfortable in. I'd weep for her first before I'd blame her, because she's a powerless and brainwashed victim of the very society that raised her..

Can one really blame teenagers/youngsters who just don't know better because they never had the chance to acquire the right tools to change the wrong side of their fate? Sad

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 4:29 pm

Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:
Veejay wrote:More like a knighthood...
Sir Veejay..has quite a nice ring to it innit?

Me encanta

Lo siento, no me gusta "innit". Carmbiarlo!

jajaja que fuerte...:P

Carmbiarlo, por favor! Very Happy

by TRuffin Thu 22 Mar 2012, 5:20 pm

CommonSense wrote:TRuffin & Veejay,

While I agree with most of Ruffin's reasoning, I cannot bring myself to blame a youngster who probably didn't have the required mental resources to go against the wrong cultural influence imposed on him by his own family. Rather, I feel sorry for him as a young victim.

I say this bc I'm thinking about young girls being sold to prostitution in SE ASia. Most of them NEVER escape living in the brothel for the rest of their productive life, EVEN when they are subsequently given the choice.
A reporter once published a case where he "bought" out one of these young prostitutes and started to pay out of his own pocket for the girl to start a new life with a new career. Guess what happened? After a couple of years, the "liberated" girl returned to the brothel by her own free will. Life in the brothel was what she knew and felt comfortable in. I'd weep for her first before I'd blame her, because she's a powerless and brainwashed victim of the very society that raised her..

Can one really blame teenagers/youngsters who just don't know better because they never had the chance to acquire the right tools to change the wrong side of their fate?

Tragic for sure..

I think we could apply that to Nadal entereing the tour or even 1st few years, but at this point-- with the world pointing it out-- he could say "no more" Obviously as from my originial comment, I think there is plenty of blame on both sides... Nadal as a young man had powerful people telling him it was okay-- very few could resist that.. Ferrer prob had less pressure - he wasn't seen to be as great as Nadal that quick----- but now at this point- Nadal is rich and as powerful as can be,, has been exposed to true sportsman, has even bucked Toni publically in some ways-- yet he continues the facade.. Nadal has OCD for sure, so maybe that makes it even harder to mentally break from his tradition.

i guess in the end though it is the classic question: Do we not punish the murderer (not that I am equating them as the same!!lol) because he was abused as a child and raised violently, or do we punish him just the same as a murderer who grew up with a fine life? Is Nadal guilty of habitual poor sportmanship- I think we all know he is. So what to do with the guy? lol........

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 6:00 pm

Ruffin,
Again, I agree with all of what you said. POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 3610695981

He's now old enough at a stage where our expectation to see him take responsiblity to right the wrong of his past history is justified

"what to do with the guy?"

From where I'm sitting, nothing. There's such a thing called "divine punishment". I can already see it happening based on vivid visual evidence at the IW semi. I believe rafa looking relatively off-form the entire match facing Fed that evening had to do with the fact that he was distracted by the time violation and other such gamesmanship issues that's re-surfaced increasingly, prior to the tourney. Of course, if he were still 17, none of that might have affected his drive or concentration. But now at 25+, he's finally matured enough to be negatively affected by the feeling of guilt as an adult. It was obvious, he couldn't even serve properly and committed errors in ways unseen before.
So you see, no worries, Nadal is beginning to pay for his past gamesmanship violations from a natural and psychological source. From now on, it's his own memories of his ugly past that will break his game down bit by bit and defeat him ultimately.
Just sit back, relax, wait and watch. Be patient, you'll see what I mean, hopefully. POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 1755038253

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 6:13 pm

CommonSense wrote:Ruffin,
Again, I agree with all of what you said. He's now old enough at a stage where our expectation to see him take responsiblity to right the wrong of his past history is justified

"what to do with the guy?"

From where I'm sitting, nothing. There's such a thing called "divine punishment". I can already see it happening based on vivid visual evidence at the IW final. I believe rafa looking relatively off-form the entire match facing Fed that evening had to do with the fact that he was distracted by the time violation and other such gamesmanship issues that's re-surfaced increasingly, prior to the tourney. Of course, if he were still 17, none of that might have affected his drive or concentration. But now at 25+, he's finally matured enough to be negatively affected by the feeling of guilt as an adult. It was obvious, he couldn't even serve properly and committed errors in ways unseen before.
So you see, no worries, Nadal is beginning to pay for his past gamesmanship violations from a natural and psychological source. From now on, it's his own memories of his ugly past that will break his game down bit by bit and defeat him ultimately.
Just sit back, relax, wait and watch. Be patient, you'll see what I mean, hopefully.

I dont buy him feeling guilty,but I think you made a very good point about Nadal struggling to abide by the serving rule.I think that has had a clear effect on his service games as not only Roger but Nalbandian were able to put a lot of pressure on him during his service games
Those extra 15-20 seconds he takes are vital for him and taking it away has forced him out of his comfort zone
If the umpires keep this up,things look grim for him

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 6:51 pm

VJ,
OK, even if he doesn't feel guilty, it doesn't matter. My point is he will pay (we all do) for the wrongdoings of his past imposed by a "divine intervention". He's struggling now because he's had the luxury of imposing his own peculiar ritualistic habits on court in the past, but not now. Think of the way he makes his opponents wait for him before the start of a match. Did you notice that at IW, Fed made him wait instead, first time in 7 years of their on court meetings! POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 1710857839

Being superstitious, that must have thrown rafa off balance, because his ritual was upset for the first time by Fed,of all people!

It gives me so much satisfaction to witness nadal outsmarting himself in perhaps the forthcoming biggest case of payback in tennis history. POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 479796

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 22 Mar 2012, 6:55 pm

CommonSense wrote:My point is he will pay (we all do) for the wrongdoings of his past imposed by a "divine intervention".

Odd that the divinities let him win 10 slams first. You would have thought they'd only let him win 3 or 4.
Maybe emancipator can enlighten us on this matter.

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 7:00 pm

Hello

I heard my name.

Oh minions, this is all foolish speculation.

The Nadull is a fearsome adversary and he will return to conquer the heights once again.

IW's is sadly the exception. He will return to torment the Great one (RF).

As it has been foretold, so it shall come to pass.

ghost

emancipator - I have spoken.

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 7:46 pm

[quote="JuliusHMarx"]

CommonSense wrote:My point is he will pay (we all do) for the wrongdoings of his past imposed by a "divine intervention".

No, not odd at all, I never denied the fact that the subject in question is a great tennis player in his own right. He is the Greatest #2 of All Times. If it wasn't for a certain Serb on fire for the entire 2011 & Jan this year, Nadal would've had more then 10 slams by now, getting ever closre to Fed's already. Rolling Eyes

Hey, come to think of it, that's another evidence of "divine intervention". POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 810156456

by amritia3ee Thu 22 Mar 2012, 7:51 pm

If Djokovic hadn't been there during 2011 and beginning of 2012 Nadal would have had 17 slams?

I don't know about tennis debating but maths certainly isn't your strong point.

by bogbrush Thu 22 Mar 2012, 7:53 pm

[quote="CommonSense"]

JuliusHMarx wrote:
CommonSense wrote:My point is he will pay (we all do) for the wrongdoings of his past imposed by a "divine intervention".

No, not odd at all, I never denied the fact that the subject in question is a great tennis player in his own right. He is the Greatest #2 of All Times. If it wasn't for a certain Serb on fire for the entire 2011 & Jan this year, Nadal would've had 17 slams by now, surpassing Fed already. Hey, come to think of it, that's another evidence of "divine intervention", that is, he should have had 17 but only has 10 slams

If my auntie had balls.............

There's a reason why they all come short of 17 Slams. Someone beats them.

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:00 pm

emancipator wrote:Hello

I heard my name.

Oh minions, this is all foolish speculation.

The Nadull is a fearsome adversary and he will return to conquer the heights once again.

IW's is sadly the exception. He will return to torment the Great one (RF).

As it has been foretold, so it shall come to pass.

emancipator - I have spoken.

Hello to you, the ghostly one. Thanks for chiming in.

What's the joy of life without speculation?

If you had said "he will return fo conquere the heights once again" just 2 years ago, I'd have agreed. But unlikely now, for he seems to be aging fast. At 25+, the steps have slowed, the tools are blunt, the focus has taken flight, errors creeped in. Can he really straighten those knees and rise to conquer again?

Besides, wise one, where is the fun if we all agree? POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 57983

Bon soiree.

by amritia3ee Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:02 pm

CommonSense wrote:

From where I'm sitting, nothing. There's such a thing called "divine punishment". I can already see it happening based on vivid visual evidence at the IW final. I believe rafa looking relatively off-form the entire match facing Fed that evening had to do with...

What IW final? Your tennis knowledge is as good as your maths

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:09 pm

amritia3ee wrote:If Djokovic hadn't been there during 2011 and beginning of 2012 Nadal would have had 17 slams?

I don't know about tennis debating but maths certainly isn't your strong point.

oops, amrit, I'm so ambarassed. thanks for pointing out. You're absolutely right, I'm lousy at math, beside, my brain is useless in the evening. I failed to separate the slam from the non slams in his 7 final losses.

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:14 pm

CommonSense wrote:
amritia3ee wrote:If Djokovic hadn't been there during 2011 and beginning of 2012 Nadal would have had 17 slams?

I don't know about tennis debating but maths certainly isn't your strong point.

oops, amrit, I'm so ambarassed. thanks for pointing out. You're absolutely right, I'm lousy at math, beside, my brain is useless in the evening. I failed to separate the slam from the non slams in his 7 final losses.

One can hardly blame you....7 straight final loses...plus setting new records for consecutive slam loses...anyone would easily make that mistake Very Happy

by amritia3ee Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:15 pm

You can't tell the difference between slams and non-slams?
Are you taking the p*ss or just trying to wind me up?

by amritia3ee Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:16 pm

Where's Laverfan?

by Guest Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:34 pm

Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:
amritia3ee wrote:If Djokovic hadn't been there during 2011 and beginning of 2012 Nadal would have had 17 slams?

I don't know about tennis debating but maths certainly isn't your strong point.

oops, amrit, I'm so ambarassed. thanks for pointing out. You're absolutely right, I'm lousy at math, beside, my brain is useless in the evening. I failed to separate the slam from the non slams in his 7 final losses.

One can hardly blame you....7 straight final loses...plus setting new records for consecutive slam loses...anyone would easily make that mistake

Nah, no big deal. But what's interesting is someboby's obviously getting rather upset and testy. I wonder why? POOR SPORTSMANSHIP - Page 2 810156456

You know VJ, wtf cares about secondary stuff like the math or whether a certain gamesmanship-prone tennis player lost in the QF, Semi or Final? The info that counts is that Roger crushed him. Ain't that sweet? Now, over to you. I'm in no mood to engage in amrit's petty talk, not my style. i've found it to be a very unrewarding experience. Rolling Eyes

by Veejay Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:09 pm

CommonSense wrote:
Veejay wrote:
CommonSense wrote:
amritia3ee wrote:If Djokovic hadn't been there during 2011 and beginning of 2012 Nadal would have had 17 slams?

I don't know about tennis debating but maths certainly isn't your strong point.

oops, amrit, I'm so ambarassed. thanks for pointing out. You're absolutely right, I'm lousy at math, beside, my brain is useless in the evening. I failed to separate the slam from the non slams in his 7 final losses.

One can hardly blame you....7 straight final loses...plus setting new records for consecutive slam loses...anyone would easily make that mistake

Nah, no big deal. But what's interesting is someboby's obviously getting rather upset and testy. I wonder why? You know VJ, wtf cares about secondary stuff like the math or whether a certain gamesmanship-prone tennis player lost in the QF, Semi or Final? The info that counts is that Roger crushed him. Ain't that sweet? Now, over to you. I'm in no mood to engage in amrit's petty talk, not my style. i've found it to be a very unrewarding experience.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 28 Mar 2012, 7:38 am

Another of those timely MTOs by Nadal at 5-4 in the 1st set when Nishikori was about to serve to stay in the set. As usual no sign of any injury before or after the MTO. Further again interrupting play in the same game at when after being 0-30 down Nishi got to to 30-30 viola!!!! a sudden need for water. And poor Nishikori losing his serve and focus and the set.

Such a disgrace is this behavior.

by Tenez Wed 28 Mar 2012, 8:22 am

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Another of those timely MTOs by Nadal at 5-4 in the 1st set when Nishikori was about to serve to stay in the set. As usual no sign of any injury before or after the MTO. Further again interrupting play in the same game at when after being 0-30 down Nishi got to to 30-30 viola!!!! a sudden need for water. And poor Nishikori losing his serve and focus and the set.

Such a disgrace is this behavior.

Is that true?

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 8:44 am

Tenez wrote:
raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Another of those timely MTOs by Nadal at 5-4 in the 1st set when Nishikori was about to serve to stay in the set. As usual no sign of any injury before or after the MTO. Further again interrupting play in the same game at when after being 0-30 down Nishi got to to 30-30 viola!!!! a sudden need for water. And poor Nishikori losing his serve and focus and the set.

Such a disgrace is this behavior.

Is that true?

Yes, absolutely, I saw it too. I wonder how he could run like a rabbit before and after the MTO if the knee was indeed hurting. Esp. shocking was the fact that he suddenly interrupted play to ask for water to rinse his hand, leaving his opponent waiting and wondering what was happening! Has this ever happened in a tennis match? Ever?
The guy blatantly mocked the tennis world, his own fans included. Wow, what a humble and innocent player!

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 8:51 am

I saw it too.

I have chosen to stay silent on the matter purely because I want to see if any Nadal fans can honestly justify such actions without a hint of honesty that the timing and the nature of his actions were anything but sporting and within the true spirit of the game.

I do hope as well that his detractors do not go overboard with their criticism because I do think that this is the most interesting point to come out of the match. The commentators and pundits were silent on the matter.

I do open up the floor to Nadal fans to what they think of his actions

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:13 am

Cited below is a typical comment from a Nadal fan re yesterday's match:
"Rafa has not entirely been himself lately and now we learned the reason. So many obstacles to overcome, so little time. A shame to see his enormous talent being wasted because of the knee problem. Nothing else to say but hope that he gets better soon. At this point, really really heartbroken for him."

Oh, dear, please pass me the handkie!

Here are other Nadal fans' comments from a Nada fan site:http://www.nadalnews.com/2012/03/27/miami-good-morning-everybodyguys/#comments

20+ posts, not one addresses Nadal's in-your-face gamesmanship issue. Where are thou hiding, honest rafa fans?

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:21 am

Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

by reckoner Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:33 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

That is wishful thinking - Fed ran put of gas and played terribly, that is why he lost.

What do you think of Nadal's appalling gamesmanship?

by reckoner Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:35 am

CommonSense wrote:Cited below is a typical comment from a Nadal fan re yesterday's match:
"Rafa has not entirely been himself lately and now we learned the reason. So many obstacles to overcome, so little time. A shame to see his enormous talent being wasted because of the knee problem. Nothing else to say but hope that he gets better soon. At this point, really really heartbroken for him."

Oh, dear, please pass me the handkie!

Here are other Nadal fans' comments from a Nada fan site:http://www.nadalnews.com/2012/03/27/miami-good-morning-everybodyguys/#comments

20+ posts, not one addresses Nadal's in-your-face gamesmanship issue. Where are thou hiding, honest rafa fans?

This is exactly what Spanish footballers do - dive at any opportunity and roll around in "agony". Pathetic cheating.

by Tenez Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:36 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

No it's not disgraceful. What is the alternative? Not play Miami at all and cite tiredness instead? disappointing lots of fans and the tournament director? He doesn't tank it, he simply realises while playing that even if he could win his match v Roddick, he won;t be able to go much further anyway. It's a better way to go out than a walk over, if you ask me, or even giving up during a match. Let's not forget it's also a show and let a whole crowd enjoy their home boy win Federer is good money spent for them.

The big difference is that Federer's opponent goes through with a chance and more money while Nadal's opponent goes out and feels cheated, not quite the same is it?

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:37 am

reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

That is wishful thinking - Fed ran put of gas and played terribly, that is why he lost.

What do you think of Nadal's appalling gamesmanship?

Really?

So an MTO at 5-4 is gamesmanship and yet running out of gas in a match and basically tanking isn't?

Interesting.

by Guest Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:42 am

Tenez wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

No it's not disgraceful. What is the alternative? Not play Miami at all and cite tiredness instead? disappointing lots of fans and the tournament director? He doesn't tank it, he simply realises while playing that even if he could win his match v Roddick, he won;t be able to go much further anyway. It's a better way to go out than a walk over, if you ask me, or even giving up during a match. Let's not forget it's also a show and let a whole crowd enjoy their home boy win Federer is good money spent for them.

The big difference is that Federer's opponent goes through with a chance and more money while Nadal's opponent goes out and feels cheated, not quite the same is it?

You damn right I would want him to pull out!

I think a tired Roger playing nothing but exhibition at best is disgraceful to the fans and director who expects a top performance from the players.

So has Nishikori claimed he felt cheated?

Roddick's victory is tainted if Roger didn't play near his best.

by reckoner Wed 28 Mar 2012, 9:44 am

legendkillarV2 wrote:
reckoner wrote:
legendkillarV2 wrote:Didn't some Federer fans claim he 'tanked' his match against Roddick for some much needed rest?

And that is not disgraceful? And his fans actually justified it and praised it!!

Double Standards eh?

That is wishful thinking - Fed ran put of gas and played terribly, that is why he lost.

What do you think of Nadal's appalling gamesmanship?

Really?

So an MTO at 5-4 is gamesmanship and yet running out of gas in a match and basically tanking isn't?

Interesting.

pfff you're just trying to divert the discussion, I won't rise to it.

by Sponsored content