Klitschkos prove their evil natures

First topic message reminder :

Vampire squids upon the face of humanity, the pair of them: http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=afp-box_ukr_oly_klitschko_medal_20120330

To stop being facetious for a moment - it does lead us onto an interesting question in terms of transcendence and dominance.

To transcend as a fighter - you have to crack America - that's what we're told and that's what history tells us. Now the K-bros are nowhere near cracking America - who really don't like either champion all that much. They'd be more disliked, but Haye gave Wlad's popularity a much needed boost last summer. Now auctions like this one and political campaigning in Europe are all very well - however - they seem to be viewed as an unhelpful sideshow, much as Manny's "Congressman" status.

Fellow 606v2ers - how do you view political activities? To be even more particular - do you believe that Wlad, Vit and Manny's activities add to, detract from or make no difference to their legacies?

By getting in politics are they providing themselves with an "excuse" for losses and poor performances? Or are they genuinely motivated to make a difference?

Define what you mean better for boxing?

rowley wrote:Define what you mean better for boxing?

Forget it. You know exactly what "better" means and in what context. Look at the whole picture and sport. No smart word games please.

Cribb Molineaux makes 8 posts in 2 days.

This makes 50 in 2 hours. Was only meant as a bit of end_of_weekend light entertainment. Ho hum

Don King has done some wonderful things for boxing, has promoted some of the best fights ever and put on some truly memorable cards, however he has shamelessly exploited fighters and defrauded them almost throughout his career and has served to reinforce a lot of stereotypes about the sport and its powerbrokers but undeniably he has done a lot for the sport.

However to ask who has done more for the sport him or the Klitschko's is not really fair, he has had a 40 year career that is not constrained by being phyiscally too old to compete or limited to one division as by their very nature the brothers are, also they are only really promoting their own career, by the nature of his business Don can promote a number of fighters and can spread his wings far wider. That said I genuinely believe whilst King has inevitably done more for the sport the brothers have represented the sport with far more dignity and integrity.

However maintain your question is pretty facile, has as little meaning as me asking who would win in the ring King or either brother?

oxring wrote:Cribb Molineaux makes 8 posts in 2 days.

This makes 50 in 2 hours.

You want to write one about a turn of the 20th century black middleweight, I dream of eight responses.

Don King, he'd kick them to death Rowley.

rowley wrote:Don King has done some wonderful things for boxing, has promoted some of the best fights ever and put on some truly memorable cards, however he has shamelessly exploited fighters and defrauded them almost throughout his career and has served to reinforce a lot of stereotypes about the sport and its powerbrokers but undeniably he has done a lot for the sport.

However to ask who has done more for the sport him or the Klitschko's is not really fair, he has had a 40 year career that is not constrained by being phyiscally too old to compete or limited to one division as by their very nature the brothers are, also they are only really promoting their own career, by the nature of his business Don can promote a number of fighters and can spread his wings far wider. That said I genuinely believe whilst King has inevitably done more for the sport the brothers have represented the sport with far more dignity and integrity.

However maintain your question is pretty facile, has as little meaning as me asking who would win in the ring King or either brother?

I dosn't ask who has done more. I asked who is better for boxing.

In that case the brothers are absolutely better for boxing, they represent the sport with dignity and class, King, whilst a good promoter (read outstanding) is a fraud, a cheat and a crook.

rowley wrote:

oxring wrote:Cribb Molineaux makes 8 posts in 2 days.

This makes 50 in 2 hours.

You want to write one about a turn of the 20th century black middleweight, I dream of eight responses.

I thought Jack Blackburn was a lightweight Jeff?

If my memory serves me right I contributed to that thread but what can you do.

I did a thread on the forgotten men of the 40's and 50's but barely got a reply, controversy sells.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

rowley wrote:

oxring wrote:Cribb Molineaux makes 8 posts in 2 days.

This makes 50 in 2 hours.

You want to write one about a turn of the 20th century black middleweight, I dream of eight responses.

I thought Jack Blackburn was a lightweight Jeff?

.

You missed the follow up on Jeff Clarke, made the Blackburn one look well responded to.

rowley wrote:In that case the brothers are absolutely better for boxing, they represent the sport with dignity and class, King, whilst a good promoter (read outstanding) is a fraud, a cheat and a crook.

I bet Dana White agrees with you.

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:In that case the brothers are absolutely better for boxing, they represent the sport with dignity and class, King, whilst a good promoter (read outstanding) is a fraud, a cheat and a crook.

I bet Dana White agrees with you.

He seems a bright bloke, would expect nothing less.

rowley wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

rowley wrote:

oxring wrote:Cribb Molineaux makes 8 posts in 2 days.

This makes 50 in 2 hours.

You want to write one about a turn of the 20th century black middleweight, I dream of eight responses.

I thought Jack Blackburn was a lightweight Jeff?

.

You missed the follow up on Jeff Clarke, made the Blackburn one look well responded to.

I missed the Clarke one! Bump it!

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:In that case the brothers are absolutely better for boxing, they represent the sport with dignity and class, King, whilst a good promoter (read outstanding) is a fraud, a cheat and a crook.

I bet Dana White agrees with you.

He seems a bright bloke, would expect nothing less.

Absolutely. Shame he's not a boxing promoter. At least he (like King) delivered fights fans want to see. K2 provide useless cards and pay a slave wage to opponents.

I think the influence of the Klitschkos is underappreciated. Interest in the sport has clearly grown and developed in Europe because of them. Their image - phoney or otherwise - is that of good ambassoders for the sport. I dont think its fair to say a fighter who can regularly sell out big venues (50,000 for Mormeck!) and whos fights are broadcast in over 150 countries is unpopular. Their fights are also free to air on regular tv networks which make it accessible for all fans and encourages new fans of the sport. I believe this is prefferable to the ppv culture in the U.S which might earn the top boxers more per fight, but makes the sport less fan friendly and accessible.

I dont really like the sense of entitlement that the U.S should automatically have the world title, and a fighters credentials be based on whether the U.S deem him "worthy" which in the case of the Klitschkos is actually at odds with what they have acheived. Frankly I think they have proven then while America may not need or want them, they can quit comfortable reign without America. I certainly dont think they can be blamed personally for Americas inability to produce their own decent heavyweights.

With the Klitschkos there, you have guys who are genuine champions. Without them the division is worse off in my view. Arreola and Chambers might be American heavyweight champions without the Klitschkos but they are fat and inferior and the state of the division would be fragmented and the quality poorer.

I think it might take a few years after their retirement to fully appreciate the influence they had or be able to measure it tangibly. I think it will be more far reaching than is currently held though. If they were Valuev/Ottke like figures who were synonomous with hometown decision, avoiding the best competition and hiding away in Germany then I would take issue but this isnt the case at all. They gave America a fair crack and they take on the best available competition, which is what matters more to me than what country the actual fight takes place in.

rowley wrote:OK Az apologies to King, would not want to besmirch his good name, in future whenever I make reference to the incident I will say he was convicted and imprisoned for kicking Sam Garrett to death over a gambling debt, the last thing I would ever want to do is give people the wrong impression about his character.

I know you hate these Rowley but:

K2 would sell 50k taking a dump in a public toilet. Doesn't escape the fact (imo) that they deliver sleep inducing promotional cards and fights and are exceptionally boring outside the ring.

Even Ottke sold out arenas in germany. Doesn't say much. If Ricky Burns were German, he would sell 50k also.

If you can sell out a 50k stadim fighting Mormeck I think it does say something about your popularity.

If people find them boring, fine, but you have to accept that clearly not every else does.

Sensible disussion goes out the window after the arrival of Azania........

That is eastern europe though Manos, as an englishmen i'm far more in line with the americans and mexicans. Being big in Germany doesn't really mean anything but being big in America does.

manos de piedra wrote:If you can sell out a 50k stadim fighting Mormeck I think it does say something about your popularity.

If people find them boring, fine, but you have to accept that clearly not every else does.

It says more about Germans as boxing fans. Sturm, Ottke, Beyer and others sold out arenas. HW is the cherry on top and its no surprise that they would sell out stadia.

Super D Boon wrote:Sensible disussion goes out the window after the arrival of Azania........

Take a hike.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:If you can sell out a 50k stadim fighting Mormeck I think it does say something about your popularity.

If people find them boring, fine, but you have to accept that clearly not every else does.

It says more about Germans as boxing fans. Sturm, Ottke, Beyer and others sold out arenas. HW is the cherry on top and its no surprise that they would sell out stadia.

Yes an in the U.S quality U.S fighters like Ward an Bradley cant sell a fraction of that despite being seen as among the top 10 or 15 boxers in the world.

Entertainment is subjective, and the numbers the Klitschkos boast pretty much indicate that they are entertaining even if its not to everyones taste. Its horses for courses.

Making it in America, in my view, is largely associated with being the best and taking on the best competition. Sturm, Ottke, Beyer etc didnt really do this. The Klitschkos do so in my view its shouldnt matter a great deal that they fight out of Germany as long as they take on the best available competition. They gave America a shot, but the interest wasnt there. And I think its somewhat naive to lay the entire blame on the Klitschkos boxing style for this. There are many other factors. Ironically many of the more destructive and exciting Klitschko fights and performances (Lewis, Sanders II, Williams, Peter I, Mercer, Brewster ) which either were competitive or had knockdowns galore took place on U.S soil. None of thse fights were boring or robotic displays by the brothers.

K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Maybe so, but why should it matter and why is it all their fault is what my point is.

Sometimes it seems they are getting the blame personally for the fact America cant cant produce any heavyweight talent which is unfair in my eyes and I believe that as soon as the heavyweight talent dried up in the U.S that any foreign heavyweight was unlikely to generate big interest there. Especially former Soviet ones with little communitiy in the U.S to draw support from.

Had Lewis inherited the same division the brothers did I am not sure it would be considered any healthier or he would be massively popular in the States.

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Yeah but as Manos stated, Ward and Bradley can't sell in America even though they're American and top of their respective trees.

It's not all the fault of the K bros. Boxing generally is falling down. With masses of money around in NFL and NBA then the bigger more talented athletes are taking less risky and less painful options. Obviously the unfortuante rise and rise of MMA is not helping either.

At least Lewis would take all this garbage out in double quick time, he would never have let Haye see the final bell for example, it's a high profile fight like that which emphasises why they are so unpopular outside of Germany.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Maybe so, but why should it matter and why is it all their fault is what my point is.

Sometimes it seems they are getting the blame personally for the fact America cant cant produce any heavyweight talent which is unfair in my eyes and I believe that as soon as the heavyweight talent dried up in the U.S that any foreign heavyweight was unlikely to generate big interest there. Especially former Soviet ones with little communitiy in the U.S to draw support from.

Had Lewis inherited the same division the brothers did I am not sure it would be considered any healthier or he would be massively popular in the States.

I'm not blaming them as such. I simply find them sleep inducing. Great talent but boring.

If Lewis reigned he would be knocking out the stiffs in the division in quick time.

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Yeah but as Manos stated, Ward and Bradley can't sell in America even though they're American and top of their respective trees.

It's not all the fault of the K bros. Boxing generally is falling down. With masses of money around in NFL and NBA then the bigger more talented athletes are taking less risky and less painful options. Obviously the unfortuante rise and rise of MMA is not helping either.

I liik at Ward and compare his talent to Mayweather. Then I hear them speak and the comparison ends there. Floyd is not as exciting as Paq but he sells because of his mouth. He has a personality that draws people to his fights. Many want to see him lose but watch they will. Ward has no personality and that SOG stuff isn't helping him much.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:At least Lewis would take all this garbage out in double quick time, he would never have let Haye see the final bell for example, it's a high profile fight like that which emphasises why they are so unpopular outside of Germany.

Couldn't disagree more. Firstly what's to say Lewis would have had Haye out of there. Haye fought in a way to avoid being knocked out after it dawned upon him that he was in over his head after about 4 rounds. Difficult to knock out a man pretty much looking to survive rather than fight.

And the second part, well actually Wlad's popularity has increased globally after that fight. Many more people are aware of Wlad and the K bros now on the back of the David Haye fight and he's garnered a lot more support from fans who want the "good guy"to win. For example I've been to sports quizzes in the past where a K bro question came up and no-one answered it correctly except for me! A similar question came up last week and pretty much everyone got it right.

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Yeah but as Manos stated, Ward and Bradley can't sell in America even though they're American and top of their respective trees.

It's not all the fault of the K bros. Boxing generally is falling down. With masses of money around in NFL and NBA then the bigger more talented athletes are taking less risky and less painful options. Obviously the unfortuante rise and rise of MMA is not helping either.

I liik at Ward and compare his talent to Mayweather. Then I hear them speak and the comparison ends there. Floyd is not as exciting as Paq but he sells because of his mouth. He has a personality that draws people to his fights. Many want to see him lose but watch they will. Ward has no personality and that SOG stuff isn't helping him much.

Ward's lack of mouth is of course his only problem - nothing to do with a general malaise in the popularity of boxing in American no?! We all know that less mouthy types like Michael Spinks, Thomas Hearns and Marvin Hagler never really broke America either.

Intersting the brother are getting into politics. I wonder what their views are on that Ukranian woman who died after being cuddled in a bad way, burnt and dumped in a make shift grave. Huge uproar in the Ukraine because the the sons of prominant Ukraine polititions were let off.

Lewis would go looking for the knockout unlike Wladimir which is the big difference and while they may be in the public consciousness more in this country I don't believe their popularity has risen that much.

You need a selling point whether it be your mouth like Mayweather or an exciting style like Pacquiao, combine Mayweathers skill with Pacquiaos humble demeanor and you end up with a fighter who wouldn't sell.

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Yeah but as Manos stated, Ward and Bradley can't sell in America even though they're American and top of their respective trees.

It's not all the fault of the K bros. Boxing generally is falling down. With masses of money around in NFL and NBA then the bigger more talented athletes are taking less risky and less painful options. Obviously the unfortuante rise and rise of MMA is not helping either.

I liik at Ward and compare his talent to Mayweather. Then I hear them speak and the comparison ends there. Floyd is not as exciting as Paq but he sells because of his mouth. He has a personality that draws people to his fights. Many want to see him lose but watch they will. Ward has no personality and that SOG stuff isn't helping him much.

Ward's lack of mouth is of course his only problem - nothing to do with a general malaise in the popularity of boxing in American no?! We all know that less mouthy types like Michael Spinks, Thomas Hearns and Marvin Hagler never really broke America either.

Hearns was incredibly exciting. So was Hagler. Plus they fought on national TV and not PPV. But why go back that far. Paq is very exciting and he sells big. Floyd not so but he sells big. Why is that? His style is no more or less exciting than Ward's. Ward doesn't have the X factor. No charisma unfortunately. His talents deserve a gigger audience. Perhaps he should relocate to Germany.

Do you think if Floyd were the humble gentleman of boxing, his ppv sales would be so high? Answer the question please as opposed to the person asking it.

Lewis would go looking for the knockout unlike Wladimir which is the big difference and while they may be in the public consciousness more in this country I don't believe their popularity has risen that much.

Lewis was though to be honest better than the K brothers. Personally I rank Lewis very highly indeed in ATG heavyweight lists, probably in the top 5.

As for popularity then I'd say there's a fair chance that with a significant increase in fame there must be a fair amount of increased popularity to go with it.

And as for selling points, the K brothers have their own niche (ie. them being PhDs and very well spoken and mannered), well it goes down a storm in Germany anyway.

Each to their own though. I don't find the K brothers to be all that bad in terms of entertainment value nor do I think they're the worst thing in heavyweight boxing history. I agree with Rowley in that it's better to have two champions with world class bringing some kind of honour and respect to the division than it is to have four champions , either fat American wasters or Euro bums playing pass the parcel with four different belts, like how it was a few years ago.

That's why I don't like the comparisons to Lewis because despite all his faults and he had a few, he was a greater heavyweight champion who represented the sport inside the ring, none of this humble guy nonsense because of politics or charity.

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:K2 to are fantastic boxers. Wlad imo will be highly rated in 15 years time. Outside of eastern europe they couldn't sell water to thirsty tuaregs.

Yeah but as Manos stated, Ward and Bradley can't sell in America even though they're American and top of their respective trees.

It's not all the fault of the K bros. Boxing generally is falling down. With masses of money around in NFL and NBA then the bigger more talented athletes are taking less risky and less painful options. Obviously the unfortuante rise and rise of MMA is not helping either.

I liik at Ward and compare his talent to Mayweather. Then I hear them speak and the comparison ends there. Floyd is not as exciting as Paq but he sells because of his mouth. He has a personality that draws people to his fights. Many want to see him lose but watch they will. Ward has no personality and that SOG stuff isn't helping him much.

Ward's lack of mouth is of course his only problem - nothing to do with a general malaise in the popularity of boxing in American no?! We all know that less mouthy types like Michael Spinks, Thomas Hearns and Marvin Hagler never really broke America either.

Hearns was incredibly exciting. So was Hagler. Plus they fought on national TV and not PPV. But why go back that far. Paq is very exciting and he sells big. Floyd not so but he sells big. Why is that? His style is no more or less exciting than Ward's. Ward doesn't have the X factor. No charisma unfortunately. His talents deserve a gigger audience. Perhaps he should relocate to Germany.

Do you think if Floyd were the humble gentleman of boxing, his ppv sales would be so high? Answer the question please as opposed to the person asking it.

I said that Ward suffers from a malaise in boxing popularity in America and you partly agreed with me without realising it

Secondly, Floyd has been around many years to build his reputation, Ward is still trying to make it big, in a country that doesn't care for boxing as much as it used to. Not easy.

Fair enough. Bhop has been around since time began. His style is not endearing and his PPV sales are relatively low.

So I'll ask again, do you think Floyd's ppv sales would be so high were he to be a ward like character?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That's why I don't like the comparisons to Lewis because despite all his faults and he had a few, he was a greater heavyweight champion who represented the sport inside the ring, none of this humble guy nonsense because of politics or charity.

But so do the K's represent the sport although not as well as they're not as good. No shame though given Lewis is a top 5 ever as far as I'm concerned. Nothing that bad about politics and good causes. I would prefer that then hear them accused of r***ing Miss Ukraine or something.

azania wrote:Fair enough. Bhop has been around since time began. His style is not endearing and his PPV sales are relatively low.

So I'll ask again, do you think Floyd's ppv sales would be so high were he to be a ward like character?

No of couse not, in the same way that Ward would do better if boxing was as popular in America as it was in the 80s.

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:Fair enough. Bhop has been around since time began. His style is not endearing and his PPV sales are relatively low.

So I'll ask again, do you think Floyd's ppv sales would be so high were he to be a ward like character?

No of couse not, in the same way that Ward would do better if boxing was as popular in America as it was in the 80s.

Its not a question of boxing being un/popular that adversely affects Ward. Many highly skilled fighters in the 80s missed a beat in the popularity stakes. Look at McCallum for example. Very skilled fighter but lacked the defining fight. His KO of Curry is excused as Curry being shopworn.

But on the other hand, Holmes was unpopular in the 80s (after Ali and all that). He ruled over what people saw as a dismal HW division. Coming after the 1970s anything would be seen as dismall. But Holmes was not considered boring. He sold live gates because people wanted to see the best big guy out here and he delivered. People saw his skills and marvelled at it.

Can that be said of K2. They reign over a very shoddy HW scene but deliver sleep inducing fights even though their talent is there for all to see. There is a suspicion that they carry fights also. Personally for me, Wlad is brilliant but extremely boring. Vit is not as good but equally boring. They are the best out there and the HW division being the marquee division; its terrible for boxing.

If anything Wards popularity would be adversely affected were he around in the 80's, too many big names for him to compete against.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:If anything Wards popularity would be adversely affected were he around in the 80's, too many big names for him to compete against.

Maybe. But at least he would have been in some good fights with true greats.

Much I would imagine would depend on his opposition with Qawi, Saad Muhammad and Spinks being the ticket sellers.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Much I would imagine would depend on his opposition with Qawi, Saad Muhammad and Spinks being the ticket sellers.

Exactly. Although Spinks wasn't Mr Popular. I'd like to have seen Qawi against Ward. That would have been interesting.

They might not offer the amount that is usually consistant with fighting for a HW title, but surely thats because the challengers are not of the same cloth that historically HW contenders have been.

aja424 wrote:They might not offer the amount that is usually consistant with fighting for a HW title, but surely thats because the challengers are not of the same cloth that historically HW contenders have been.

They are paying what challengers got 30 years ago in dollar terms.

azania wrote:

aja424 wrote:They might not offer the amount that is usually consistant with fighting for a HW title, but surely thats because the challengers are not of the same cloth that historically HW contenders have been.

They are paying what challengers got 30 years ago in dollar terms.

A similar comparison to the 1970s would be Ali v Wepner where the split was 1.5 million for Ali and 100,000k for Wepner. Its not a vastly different split from the 2.5 million Vitali earned against the 350,000k Chisora earned.

The K bros have conducted themselves with dignity and professionalism throughout their careers.

One needs only compare their attitudes to those of other so called HW champs/contenders to see that they are a rare breed in modern boxing; intelligent, professional and successful.



emancipator

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

aja424 wrote:They might not offer the amount that is usually consistant with fighting for a HW title, but surely thats because the challengers are not of the same cloth that historically HW contenders have been.

They are paying what challengers got 30 years ago in dollar terms.

A similar comparison to the 1970s would be Ali v Wepner where the split was 1.5 million for Ali and 100,000k for Wepner. Its not a vastly different split from the 2.5 million Vitali earned against the 350,000k Chisora earned.

$100k 40 years ago is probably $1m today.