Klitschkos prove their evil natures

Vampire squids upon the face of humanity, the pair of them: http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=afp-box_ukr_oly_klitschko_medal_20120330

To stop being facetious for a moment - it does lead us onto an interesting question in terms of transcendence and dominance.

To transcend as a fighter - you have to crack America - that's what we're told and that's what history tells us. Now the K-bros are nowhere near cracking America - who really don't like either champion all that much. They'd be more disliked, but Haye gave Wlad's popularity a much needed boost last summer. Now auctions like this one and political campaigning in Europe are all very well - however - they seem to be viewed as an unhelpful sideshow, much as Manny's "Congressman" status.

Fellow 606v2ers - how do you view political activities? To be even more particular - do you believe that Wlad, Vit and Manny's activities add to, detract from or make no difference to their legacies?

By getting in politics are they providing themselves with an "excuse" for losses and poor performances? Or are they genuinely motivated to make a difference?

Well iv alwys said if I was a successful sportsman I would use my fame and influence to get Welsh people to vote Plaid Cymru and promote the Welsh language and further devolution. Without trying to go down a route that I promised you mods I wouldnt...my point is that yes I think it is fine for sportsmen to go down a political route and use their influence during their career

Fe godwn ni eto, Steff. However, thank you - this is not the place to discuss such things.
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Personally, I believe it adds to the fighters legacy - as it gives us a rounded picture of them as people. I'd rather a fighter trying to use their influence for good than doing the usual retired fighter act - snorting cocaine, drinking a lot, domestic abuse and a performance on a national dance show.

Never thought they were evil, just boring.

Fe Godwn Ni Eto to you as well Oxy

Dont worry im not going to down that nature of conversation on here

Calzaghe has done a lot of charity work to be fair and he also does a lot of hands on work with the anti-bullying campaign which he can relate to

I do prefere to see fighters follow another route whether it be politics or another sport (Henry Cooper promoted golf quite a lot) than drink and drugs and general celebrity nonsense

It depends really on the fighter. I dont mind the Klitschkos doing it, they've carved out their own careers and negotiate tough and help out where they can. I don't think someone who can't even forge his own path in life and his career in Manny should ever be given power despite his unending and imo genuine generosity.


Is he who guides unto the truth more worthy to be followed, or he that guides not except he be himself guided? What ails you? how do ye judge?

I dont think that getting into politics is simply a device to safeguard against losses. Therea are easier and less consiuming ways to find excuses. I think they are genuinely motivated to be involved.

I tend to think that the political/humantiarian aspect will enhance their legacies in an overall sense. Im kind of curious to see how the Klitschkos go down in history after they retire. I suspect they will actually be rated higher than people think in the long run. I wouldnt be surprised to see them on the fringes of the top ten in maybe 20 years or so. I also think it will be interesting to see how long the U.S can try and play down the heavyweight titles move to the East, traditionally never really a threat due to the lack of pro game over there. Its assumed that its only a matter of time before it switches back to the States but the heavier divisions are thriving out in mainland and Eastern Europe with large audiences and interest there. With the sport more global in nature now Im not really convinced that the future of th division is inneviteably going to have to be in the States. As I am sure people who live out in Europe will attest, the Klitschkos are huge out there as selling 50,000 tickets for a poor match up like Mormeck confirms.

I sort of get a feeling that if either of them lose now, even at Vitalis late stage, I think it will hang over there heads very badly and the knife would be stuck into either of them for it.

Boring and slimy nonetheless Oxy, what they do outside of boxing doesn't mean they are gentleman inside it.

Yeah do get a feeling they're both a tad sneaky, nothing seriously underhand, but I guess all is fair in love and war.

Agreed I wouldnt trust either of them but who in boxing would you trust nowadays

Dereck Chisora.

Thats why you work in HR

A much more manly role now Shah, Tenancy Support Officer.

Dereck Chisora - The man every parent would want babysiting their children

AlexHuckerby wrote:A much more manly role now Shah, Tenancy Support Officer.

Good title. I like to call myself a 'Pre-graduate Archaeologist' sometimes just to avoid the 'Student' tag

AlexHuckerby wrote:A much more manly role now Shah, Tenancy Support Officer.

Sham Job.

Ghosty is nothing if not consistent. I disagree slightly, in that anyone who earned their shot got paid well and anyone who didn't got rinsed. I think they do go bit overboard in distracting the opponent and riling him up but its relatively mild when compared to most. Not saints but not demons either.

I just wish we had Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson still around so they got a taste of their own medicine, fighting for peanuts in a heavyweight title fight.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I just wish we had Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson still around so they got a taste of their own medicine, fighting for peanuts in a heavyweight title fight.

Would depend on who was holding the titles, think that the K's are very smart businessmen and know that they could actually get a good chunk of the money if they were holding.

They wouldnt get peanuts though? Millions of people would watch just to see the K's knocked out and anything involving Tyson = mega mega millions.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I just wish we had Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson still around so they got a taste of their own medicine, fighting for peanuts in a heavyweight title fight.

Would depend on who was holding the titles, think that the K's are very smart businessmen and know that they could actually get a good chunk of the money if they were holding.

They wouldn't be holding a belt in that scenario, from memory Vitali didn't get a major purse when he fought Lewis, everything little thing they do annoys me.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I just wish we had Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson still around so they got a taste of their own medicine, fighting for peanuts in a heavyweight title fight.

Would depend on who was holding the titles, think that the K's are very smart businessmen and know that they could actually get a good chunk of the money if they were holding.

They wouldn't be holding a belt in that scenario, from memory Vitali didn't get a major purse when he fought Lewis, everything little thing they do annoys me.

Oddly enough, I had suspected that you were not the most unbiased of commentators, where the Kbros are concerned, before now.

To be honest Oxy I respect someone like Martinez or Donaire far more than Pacquiao, Klitschkos, Mayweather or Haye for the simple reason you only hear about their boxing, it's not a constant stream of look at me BS.

I have not read either the original thread, the link or the comments that have followed it, I don't need, to the brothers are evil pure and simple, I have been reliably informed in the past they have fully paid up the amount they are contractually obliged to pay to opponents, if that does not bespeak evil I don't know what does. They are scum pure and simple. As far as I am concerned the convicted murderer and convicted fraudster Don King makes them look like Jesus.

rowley wrote:I have not read either the original thread, the link or the comments that have followed it, I don't need, to the brothers are evil pure and simple, I have been reliably informed in the past they have fully paid up the amount they are contractually obliged to pay to opponents, if that does not bespeak evil I don't know what does. They are scum pure and simple. As far as I am concerned the convicted murderer and convicted fraudster Don King makes them look like Jesus.

Comment of the day. Shame there's no like button on 606v2.

You surprise me mr immigration man

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:I have not read either the original thread, the link or the comments that have followed it, I don't need, to the brothers are evil pure and simple, I have been reliably informed in the past they have fully paid up the amount they are contractually obliged to pay to opponents, if that does not bespeak evil I don't know what does. They are scum pure and simple. As far as I am concerned the convicted murderer and convicted fraudster Don King makes them look like Jesus.

Comment of the day. Shame there's no like button on 606v2.

This is what irritates me about the K bros when you get the self righteous coming out and acting as if they are beyond criticism because of paying up the peanuts they offer for a heavyweight title fight.

I agree Ghosty the lowball payments they offer to people who don't deserve the shot in the first place boils my blood. However what annoys me much more is when someone like Haye or Ibgrabimov actually makes all the effort to bring something like a belt or relatively equal billing to the table and the brothers have the barefaced front to pay them a reasonably equitable split of the pot. I am just glad there are enough of us how can see through it and are brave enough to call it like it is.

Course Jeff they are the best thing to have ever happened to boxing, all hail the Klitschkos.

I knew you'd see sense eventually Ghosty, only azania to go now.

Still the worst thing to happen to heavyweight boxing since the colour line.

Everything about them makes my blood boil.

I've heard that they are tough at the negotiating table,. No other boxer, ever, in history, has tried to gain a fiscal advantage at the bargaining table.

Their attitude of tough negotiation means that I hate them and everything about them. How dare they run a foundation for poor children and campaign for democratic freedom.

I'm only glad that we've seen through them. Disaffected Ukrainian children? Save them from the Klitschkos - send them to Don King instead.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Still the worst thing to happen to heavyweight boxing since the colour line.

You cannot seriously believe that.

oxring wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Still the worst thing to happen to heavyweight boxing since the colour line.

You cannot seriously believe that.

I agree, it is totally the brothers fault their opposition is either too lazy to get in shape or too devoid of talent to provide tham with adequate competition, pure evil.

What in heavyweight boxing has been worse than the Klitschkos boring the whole boxing world outside of germany? At least poor champions like Carnera brought excitement to boxing, they bring absolutely nothing and just because they aren't as bad as Don King doesn't make them pillars of sainthood.

They bring exactly what they need to bring to win. I don't find them exciting to watch on the whole but I don't hate them for it, I hate the fat out of shape slobs and second rate charlatans incapable of making either brother step out of second gear to win.

Instead of trying to act all high mighty as soon as they are mentioned do you care to share what you believe are amongst the worst things to happen to heavyweight boxing?

Boxing is an entertainment business lest we forget and they bring zero entertainment to the sport.

If you find us "high and mighty", perhaps you will consider your own incredible hyperbole.

The "worst things" to happen to HW boxing since the colour line?

Carnera would be among them. Rademacher's title shot another. Ali's stripping of the title a third. Holmes' dropping of the WBC for the newly formed IBF. Damiani's claim and the creation of the WBO. Foreman's first retirement. Holyfield's ongoing boxing career. Bowe dumping the belt. Lewis-Holyfield 1 - with 2 not much better. Tyson biting Holy's ear off. Lewis retiring without rematching Vitali. Vitali retiring. Rahman, Maskaev, Ruiz, Liakhovich, Ibragimov all winning titles. Tua not winning a title.

Funnily enough its hard to see the Klitschkos as worse than any of the above.

Its also mildly foolish to claim they bring "zero" entertainment - given the growth of the sport in E Europe that has occurred under their watch - something HW boxing needs a damn site more than the title in the hands of a fat undeserving american. If you want to be "world" champion - at least now it is more of a global contest.

Now now IG! Don't try to dominate discussion by forcing your opinion on people as fact!

Funnily enough I'm probably one of those people (few) that find them quite entertaining. Wlad more so, there's more crispness to his work than Vitali, Wlad has very nice jabs whereas Vitali just flicks out his jab or uses it as a rangefinder.

I was also one fo the few that found Wlad v Haye to be entertaining. Maybe I was biased in that I just wanted to see Haye lose in any which way but I found the way Wlad completely neutralised Haye's offence as masterful. It doesn't have to involve knocking someone's block off to be entertaining.

Anyway, not a fan of them as people especially, they strike me as being annoyingly smug and self important and I don't think they give a fig about the fact they're not doing enough for heavyweight boxing.

I really wish Vitali would leave the sport to his brother now. There needs to be just ONE champion in the flagship division. Go Vitali there's a good man.

The situation in the late 70's where Don King basically had 8 out of 10 of the top ten heavies under his control was far worse as it basically meant if you wanted a shot at the title you had to sign your life away to King with all the associated perils that entialed, which whatever Az may tell you to the contrary was far worse than signing a contract with a Klitschko.

Liston being shut out for three odd years solely because D'Amato knew he would kick Patterson's ass was far worse, because having a dull fightwer holding the title is nowhere near as ruinous as having the best fighter in the division unable to secure a title shot.

The governing bodies splitting and creating mulitple belts and the situation where two brothers could carve up the heavyweight division between them was far worse, for both boxing and the heavyweight division, although if you want to give me a bit of time I am sure I can come up with the few more examples.

oxring wrote:

The "worst things" to happen to HW boxing since the colour line?

Carnera would be among them.

Leave Da Preem out if this, I would take an issue with this statement Oxy, but there is a thread about the much maligned Carnera in the works and I want to keep my powder dry, suffice to say how dare you!

What opinions am I trying to pass off as facts?

All the things you've listed Oxy are isolated incidents, all the fighters you mentioned brought something to heavyweight boxing at one stage in their careers, the brothers have brought in my opinion nothing to heavyweight boxing, they are the reason it's dead. Tyson was causing havoc through a fairly weak division but he did it in an exciting manner, Marciano was involved in epic struggles, Louis, Holmes and Lewis were masters of their trade. I personally don't give a toss about boxing in eastern europe, it doesn't bring the big money or excitement the sport needs in britain or america.

Boxing is an entertainment business lest we forget and they bring zero entertainment to the sport.

That sounds like an opinion wearing the clothes of a fact for a fancy dress party!

I'm sure I remember spiteful Americans everywhere claiming that heavyweight boxing was dead because Lennox Lewis was at the helm and therefore, because no decent prime American was champ then heavyweight boxing must be dead.

Some 9 years after Lewis left does the world fully appreciate how good he was. I'm damn well sure he didn't get universal acclaim when he was active.

He made more money than the brothers put together though boon because despite all the criticism he sold pretty damm well in america, a fighter who can and does look to finish a fight early brings excitement, he had his share of duff fights but they tended to be against fairly dangerous opponents.

Being safety first while producing a masterclass against David Tua the public will accept but fighting safety first against the likes of Chagaev and Ibragimov leaves people disillusioned. In the lower weight classes a guy like Mayweather sells because of his mouth and his variety, he might be considered safety first but at least he possesses more than two punches in his armoury.

IG - my point is that Lewis, whilst doing well in America was still given a pretty hard time of it all in all and just like the K bros , wasn't given the credit he deserved at the time by a lot of people. It took him many years to get the respect he deserved in Britain let alone America.

And as for entertainment value, there was a lot of people that didn't rate him in that department either. Given that the Americans in recent times had been used to Tyson exploding on fighters and the brutal Bowe/Holyfield triology then Lewis was seen as a bit of a step down from all that in terms of excitement.

If you think about it Lewis wasn't really involved in many exciting fights as such as he was usually highly dominant - dismantling the likes of Ruddock or Golota quickly or schooling people like Tua over 12. I remember at the time British commentators suggesting in a way he was almost "too good" to be entertaining.

Fast forward some more years and you have the K bros , who I would admit are a step down in "entertainment" again. However, to say they bring "zero" entertainment is too harsh. Like it or hate it (and I hate it too) there are a lot of people in certain areas of Europe and Asia who seem very happy with their nights entertainment after watching the K bros. They clearly do nothing for you though!

Oxy and Rowley have given several instances of worse times for the heavyweight division than the K bros era and I agree with them. Also, despite hardly being the most charismatic of people , I think I'd prefer my heavyweight champs to be philanthropists than hardened criminals.

To conclude - times are not good but they could be a lot worse.

Times have never been worse for the division, when I said they were the worst thing to happen to boxing I meant their whole careers rather than a singular incident. Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Patterson for all their faults brought far more to the table than the brothers.

I always find Lewis to be a poor comparison because despite having to work very hard for his respect he was on a different level to the brothers in terms of popularity, excitement and respect. The way he could take out an opponent at any time was exciting, he was able to step through the gears when he knew an opponent was there for the taking, when was the last time Wlad did that?

Super D Boon wrote:

To conclude - times are not good but they could be a lot worse.

That is the crux of the matter for me D, the picture is not good at the minute but how bad would it be without the brothers? Some have argued on here in the past without the brothers the division would be more competitive which is almost certainly true but does anyone really think a division is improved by removing the only two fighters with anything even approaching class? For me the answer is absolutely not, the heavyweight title is still meant to be the greatest prize in sport, if the options are seeing a buch of fat waste of spaces and loud mouth charlatans playing pass the parcel with the title or seeing two uninspiring but pretty decent fighters dominating the division I will take the latter of those two options every day of the week.

Rowley

Don King is not a convicted murderer. You dont serve 4 years for murder in America. He was convicted of manslaughter. But he's served his time and moved on. I suggest you leave it be. Why not bring up Vit being a steroid abuser?

But my point is a simple one. Who is and has been better for boxing? Don King or the K bros?

Whatever they do for charity, Don King does more and gives more. That is a simple fact. But the charitable nature of King gets ignored and his other side gets played up. The charitable nature of K2 gets played up and their down side gets swept under the carpet.

The guys are phoneys.

OK Az apologies to King, would not want to besmirch his good name, in future whenever I make reference to the incident I will say he was convicted and imprisoned for kicking Sam Garrett to death over a gambling debt, the last thing I would ever want to do is give people the wrong impression about his character.

rowley wrote:OK Az apologies to King, would not want to besmirch his good name, in future whenever I make reference to the incident I will say he was convicted and imprisoned for kicking Sam Garrett to death over a gambling debt, the last thing I would ever want to do is give people the wrong impression about his character.

No probs. But who is better for boxing?