The Valleys business plan.

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

Sounds like a good viable plan. The Valleys have been robbed of rugby since the self serving Superclubs came in. Lets hope this changes it

Wonder how much interest this development region would generate - but if it can get up and running it would be great to have another region - I would imagine it might be a struggle to get Bridgend and Ebbw on board though

Why cant people get it in their heads that North Wales does not want or need token gestures.
Do they think that including North Wales will enhance their chances.

Why on earth would they even consider having another region in a area that already has regions that are struggling to survive.

Any new region needs to be outside the fish bowl.

On paper it sounds good, but basically what they are trying to do is what Llanelli RFC did when they wanted stand alone status.

The promised to develop North Wales rugby then re-engaged on the agreement. In effect Valleys rugby is trying to cut in front of the WRU's own North Wales development.

I do see some problems though, for a start they want to generate £1 million by selling 10,000 shares at £100 each. Well most regions SEASON Tickets are £160 and most regions have only 4,000 of them. Then they would expect the fans to pay for tickets on top.

Secondly they are asking for between £1.2m and £1.5m per season off the WRU, which is the total cost of the new Welsh Premiership. Then they want a cut of sponsorship and TV money the regions generate, so in effect asking for 4 loss making regions who are struggling to keep their best players to have less?

Thirdly they are happy to play in the Sheild but for only 3 years, so what happens after 3 years will they want equal funding if they make the Heinaken Cup?

I really don't see what chance they think they have with a core squad of 32 players and a wage budget of £1.2m. No one will go and see a team that is getting smashed off the park every week.

To be fair the WRU wanted a business plan and Ponty supplied one, but it is not a good enough one.

Finally and most amazingly they are asking small junior clubs in their area to pay them to exist?
They propose playing games as Pontypool and Ebbw Vale then say they would charge the club £10,000 for the privilage?

Excuse me but the Scarlets did engage in the development of North Wales, the WRU took that responsibility off us, we did not in any way turn out back on that. Indeed, we are still developing many North Walian players, thank you very much

It's a ridiculous plan, that will never work. Nice that they finally took the time to actually attempt to write one up though.

Alyn we missed a golden opportunity in 2003 in getting the regions off on a good footing but now we have to make the best of what we got.
Now is not the time to try and get the WRU to form another region in the Valleys but if and when the existing regions get back on a sound financial footing then thinks could change.

Look this business plan is not 100% yet but I am surprised at what they have as I was expecting a token effort.

It certainly makes no less sense than the business plans of the current regions, if indeed any of them have any.

I live 10 mins from the Blues ground at CCS and I would never go and support them. I agree with what this MP says in that, lets call a spade a spade, and say we currently have 4 superclubs not regions. This venture will hopefully encompass a whole region from Neath to Ebbw Vale.

I have no idea if it will get off the ground but if it did then I guarantee I would be there to support them.

Looking at the Welsh regions in financial meltdown and underperforming, I find it astounding that people are seriously talking about a fifth one!! Spread the money even thinner? Dilute the talent even more? Crazy.

I think it's far more likely there'll be three regions in the future than there being 5.

doctornickolas - and you'd fork up the £100 quid a year, this is before you buy a season ticket/match day tickets, programmes, food/drink at the stadium and not to mention the costs in actually getting to the stadiums (as they'll be travelling around)?

There's no way they'll find 10K to do that, and add to that, the money they say they are going to group together from various sources (including the WRU) is no where near enough to sustain a region.

doctornickolas wrote:
I live 10 mins from the Blues ground at CCS and I would never go and support them. I agree with what this MP says in that, lets call a spade a spade, and say we currently have 4 superclubs not regions. This venture will hopefully encompass a whole region from Neath to Ebbw Vale.

You are not the only one that refuses to go down the road to support a region there are countless others like you.
That in itself is a very good reason that a new region should be situated outside the fish bowl and all the politics that goes with it.

What they are talking about at the moment is a development region so nothing like a full region. I would love it to be a full region but that is not what they are proposing.

Yes I would fork out the £100.

The current 4 superclubs are all based below the M4 how is that right?
I agree that the right number of regions for Wales is 4 but not the way it is cut up right now. I would prefer to see SE, SW, Valleys and North as the regions.

The current 'regions' have had their chance and blown it, maybe its time for someone else to have a go.

how have the current regions blown it?

The only region that blew it was the Warriors, you know the ones that had Ponty in it to begin with, that the fans didn't get behind.

Funny that.

rugbydreamer wrote:how have the current regions blown it?

The only region that blew it was the Warriors, you know the ones that had Ponty in it to begin with, that the fans didn't get behind.

Funny that.

What regions? We only have Supeclubs. You just sound a twisted little Llanelli fan scared his superclub are gonna lose a slice of the WRU gravy. Welsh rugby should have left you lot back in 1972 where you belong

Steffan wrote:Sounds like a good viable plan. The Valleys have been robbed of rugby since the self serving Superclubs came in. Lets hope this changes it

I've got some magic beans here which you might also be interested in?

doctornickolas wrote:Look this business plan is not 100% yet but I am surprised at what they have as I was expecting a token effort.

It certainly makes no less sense than the business plans of the current regions, if indeed any of them have any.

I live 10 mins from the Blues ground at CCS and I would never go and support them. I agree with what this MP says in that, lets call a spade a spade, and say we currently have 4 superclubs not regions. This venture will hopefully encompass a whole region from Neath to Ebbw Vale.

I have no idea if it will get off the ground but if it did then I guarantee I would be there to support them.

Fair do's. Let's call this 'spade' Pontypridd and let them encompass a whole region from Neath to Ebbw Vale. And you lot claim to have the hump with 'superclubs'?

rugbydreamer wrote:how have the current regions blown it?

The only region that blew it was the Warriors, you know the ones that had Ponty in it to begin with, that the fans didn't get behind.

Funny that.

Also the ones that tried to hide the best part of £1,000,000 quid in debt from Leighton Samuels when they signed up to be the other half of the Celtic Warriors. Good luck to whoever want to throw another ten grand down that hole. RCT Council should know better an' all. Is this really the best use they can think of for their taxpayers money?

Steffan wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:how have the current regions blown it?

The only region that blew it was the Warriors, you know the ones that had Ponty in it to begin with, that the fans didn't get behind.

Funny that.

What regions? We only have Supeclubs. You just sound a twisted little Llanelli fan scared his superclub are gonna lose a slice of the WRU gravy. Welsh rugby should have left you lot back in 1972 where you belong

This proposed set up is the most Superclub of them all. Ponty want a region called Ponty. You cannot enfranchise anyone daft enough to listen to this vile MP.

Well said Stone Motif.

And I'm not sure Steffan understands exactly who and what the Scarlets represent, and have always represented. Again, funny that.

Stone


This region will not have Ponty in the name at all. Yes 50% of the games would be played there but as it has the biggest ground and support you would expect that wouldn't you? The proposal is for all Valleys rugby clubs and supporters to own part of this venture.

I say they have blown it because they are all in a financial mess other than Dragons. Scarlets are £5m in the hole but then I blame the WRU because they let them have a region when they had proved on several occasions that they were unfit to run even a school tuck shop. Cardiff Blues are the same.

At the moment this is just a 'pilot' business plan. It will change and it will evolve but everyone involved, the supporters , the clubs will have a say in that. Democracy if you like.

The 4 superclubs could then revert to being just that and stop pretending they have any interest in the Valleys other than to take players from there.

We aren't £5m in debt dr, those were figures from 2 years ago now, we are due to break even next season. At least use up to date information.

There is no town in North Wales called RGC 1404

doctornickolas wrote:Stone


This region will not have Ponty in the name at all. Yes 50% of the games would be played there but as it has the biggest ground and support you would expect that wouldn't you? The proposal is for all Valleys rugby clubs and supporters to own part of this venture.

I say they have blown it because they are all in a financial mess other than Dragons. Scarlets are £5m in the hole but then I blame the WRU because they let them have a region when they had proved on several occasions that they were unfit to run even a school tuck shop. Cardiff Blues are the same.

At the moment this is just a 'pilot' business plan. It will change and it will evolve but everyone involved, the supporters , the clubs will have a say in that. Democracy if you like.

The 4 superclubs could then revert to being just that and stop pretending they have any interest in the Valleys other than to take players from there.

Sorry, but this really is pie in the sky nonsense. The regions are castigated left, right and centre by the so-called 'disenfranchised' fan for playing where their "biggest ground and support is". Where are Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, or Ponty themselves for that matter going to get £10,000 grand extra per season from just to host an extra couple of matches? The same place people in the most economically failing place in the whole of the UK are going to be able to magic up an extra £100 per annum to watch their team before they've even so much as bought a ticket or a hot dog?

I'll tell you what though, if you can name me an XV of players stolen from the Valleys by the regions, you can have a oner off me...

rugbydreamer wrote:We aren't £5m in debt dr, those were figures from 2 years ago now, we are due to break even next season. At least use up to date information.

If you break even in 1 season then you still have the debt. Breaking even means that your income = expenditure for that year not that you have cleared all your debt.

If they want a 5th region in Wales, they should put money into developing RG1404 (silly name I know...). The existing regions cover the Swansea, Gwent and Rhondda valleys there's no need for a "valleys" region.

doctornickolas wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:We aren't £5m in debt dr, those were figures from 2 years ago now, we are due to break even next season. At least use up to date information.

If you break even in 1 season then you still have the debt. Breaking even means that your income = expenditure for that year not that you have cleared all your debt.

of course we still have some debt, we don't have the £5m debt you were stating incorrectly, that was my point.

Cari you have been promoted onto my Xmas card list

rugbydreamer wrote:Excuse me but the Scarlets did engage in the development of North Wales, the WRU took that responsibility off us

I stand corrected

Cymroglan wrote:Alyn we missed a golden opportunity in 2003 in getting the regions off on a good footing but now we have to make the best of what we got.
Now is not the time to try and get the WRU to form another region in the Valleys but if and when the existing regions get back on a sound financial footing then thinks could change.

I think in 2003 we have to accept the WRU was close to bankrupt and the clubs held all the cards and players contracts, and we had to get 9 clubs down to 5 regions then 4.
Change is never sudden, but gradual. Personally I think now we need to make 4 regions into 2 East and West provinces with a new North Wales team appearing.

Provided we only have Welsh qualified players in those 3 teams, we will have 6 professional welsh players competing for each position and any other players in France and England. More than enough for Wales.

"In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby."

I think the part in bold is the only thing you need to see in this fantasy. Time to walk away now.

Cymroglan wrote:Cari you have been promoted onto my Xmas card list

Cymro; from what I have seen of you North Walians, the real ones deprived of top flight rugby (steffan are you reading?), you're all sound rugby supporters. The way you turned up and supported the U20s and sang your hearts out was amazing. RGC is the foundations for a future top flight regional rugby team in North Wales and I hope it can develop into a professional team in the next decade. Anyone Welsh living outside of Pontypridd should agree.

BTW, I think when that time comes you should drop the name RGC and call the team Gwynedd:).

I like RGC 1404 - I may be the only person on earth - but its a name that has a ring to it. Maybe I'm crazy.

Interesting read - but a massive heap of disruptive pie in the sky nonsense. £100 a share? Doubtless hoping that a few people will pay up to buy several shares. On TOP of taking more money from the WRU.

Please valley folks, get behind one of the existing regions. You had a region, you refused to support it, it went bust. Why do you thus get another bite at the cherry while the coffers don't have the money for it?

Maybe one day, in a few years, the WRU will have the cash to fund another region and maybe then another Valleys venture will be tried.

Until then, get behind the Ospreys, Blues or Dragons. It really isn't that hard to get to any of those venues from Pontypridd.

Stone Motif wrote:I'll tell you what though, if you can name me an XV of players stolen from the Valleys by the regions, you can have a oner off me...

15 Richard Fussell / Ospreys - born in Merthyr
14 Morgan Stoddart / Scarlets - born in Pontypridd
13
12 Tom riley / Dragons - born in Pontypridd
11
10 Ceri Sweeney / Blues - born in Glyncoch
9 Rhys Downes / Blues - born in Pontypridd
8 Andrew Coombs / Dragons - born in Merthyr
7 Martyn williams / Blues - born in Pontypridd
6 Jevron Groves / Dragons - born in Pontypridd / Johnathan Edwards / Scarlets - born in Pontypridd
5 Robert sidoli / Dragons - born in Merthyr
4 Lou Reed / Scarlets - born in Treorchy
3
2 Kristian Dacey / Blues - born in Merthyr / Rhys Williams / Blues - born in Pontypridd / Matthew Rees / Scarlets - born in Tonyrefail
1 Gethin Jenkins / Blues - born in Llantwin Fadre

The thing they don't mention, and which surely has a huge bearing, is how they intend convincing the other Pro 12 nations (is it still called 'Celtic Rugby Ltd'?) to let them in. We've got 12 teams already. 13 makes one team sit out a match each week. It also adds an additional cost to the Irish, scots and Italian teams in terms of travel and accommodation. Plus, it is an extra game for everyone in an already congested fixture list where players play too many games as it is. It also assumes that someone else is kicked out of the Amlin cup as you can't play that with an odd number. Who should be sacrificed for the sake of this region? Someone from a devloping nation?

The only way it would work is if they were to replace another region, e.g. my beloved Dragons. We've not exactly set the world on fire in the last 8 seasons so I wouldn't put it past the WRU exchanging one for a new one.

Griff wrote:The only way it would work is if they were to replace another region, e.g. My beloved Dragons. We've not exactly set the world in fire in the last 8 seasons so I wouldn't put it past the WRU exchanging one for a new one.

It won't happen mate, it isn't a viable business plan, the Dragons have a much better stadium and they do have people like Brown who can invest. Finally the Dragons get 5,000 supporters and Pontypridd 3,000.

Newport also has a larger population within it's urban area.

1 Cardiff 292,150 Cardiff
2 Swansea 169,880 Swansea
3 Newport 116,143 Newport
4 Wrexham 63,058 Wrexham
5 Rhondda 59,602 Rhondda Cynon Taf

15 Merthyr Tydfil 30,483 Merthyr Tydfil
16 Colwyn Bay 30,269 Conwy
17 Pontypridd 29,781 Rhondda Cynon Taf
18 Rhyl 24,889 Denbighshire
19 Shotton/Hawarden 24,751 Flintshire

If you look at the base populations you can clearly see the valleys Rhondda and Merthyr has a lower population than Wrexham and Colwyn combined, and that's not including areas like Flint, Denbighshire Anglesey, and Conwy in which the Gogs would have no other rugby competition to get support from.

To be fair, the businessplans/forecasts of any of the other regions/superclubs look equally rubbish on paper.

(e.g. Cardiff pay £500k pa rent on a massive football stadium and Llanelli have a multi million pound deferred interest loan from the council propping up theirs!)

In financial terms - Welsh domestic rugby is never 'viable' - all the teams rely on massive subsidies from benefactors and the WRU to keep them afloat.

Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport have no divine monopoly on hosting pro rugby - if we're going to stick with the superclub model then 'Valleys Rugby' are entitled to have a crack at it.

Be much better if the WRU just created proper regions, of course...

Cas, the thing is the Valleys Rugby had a crack at it....and epically failed. I'm willing to persist with the poor model in place whilst North Wales has a crack at it.

When did 'Valleys Rugby' have a crack at it???

Are you referring to Bridgend based outfit, run as a hobby by a local factory owner, cut loose by the WRU when everyone realised there was nobody in the organisation that could read a set of accounts?

Casterelli, I agree but I think another entity needs to be instead of rather than as well as the current 4 regions. 5 regions, as I posted, messes everything up. It spreads the talent more thinly so performances would be worse, the money more thinly so even less stars are retained, needs the thumbs up from the Pro 12 nations and ERC which I'm not sure they'll go for as it will cost other pro 12 nations more and make them play another game while booting another team out of the Amlin, etc.

The question for me is if this is a goer, then who goes? My money would be on the Dragons due to results over the last 8 years, but would that solve anything? If the Dragons folded to make way for the valleys region you'd probably just have the same players or similar playing in Ponty!

On a separate note, where do people think the fans will come from? As this is apparently not a Pontypridd team then Pontypridd RFC will still exist. Will 'Disenfranchised' fans without a region then suddenly stop supporting Pontypridd and go in their drives to the new team? I can't see fans supporting both, simply because it hasn't happened in the other regions, i.e. Newport, Cardiff Llanelli, Swansea and Neath crowds dropped dramatically when regional rugby came in, So, will Ponty fans be happy that their club sides support goes through the floor, perhaps jeopardising their future, or do you think that this new side will be supported by a completely new set of supporters that have been in hiding?

I have no idea where they'd find supporters - not really that bothered, I think the current structure is fundamentally flawed and another team isn't going to make much difference either way.

I'm just saying there's no reason not to let them have a go. (And they appear much more 'viable', financially, than, say, Llanelli Scarlets).

Casartelli wrote:When did 'Valleys Rugby' have a crack at it???

Are you referring to Bridgend based outfit, run as a hobby by a local factory owner, cut loose by the WRU when everyone realised there was nobody in the organisation that could read a set of accounts?

The Celtic Warriors were representing Valleys Rugby. Based in Bridgend? How many games did they play there?

Initially - games were supposed to be shared between Pontypridd and Bridgend. Then there was a squabble and prior to their demise, all games were being played in Bridgend.

And the Celtic Warriors Head Office was in Bridgend. In the factory. Which was really funny if you ever phoned up to ask about tickets.

AlynDavies wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:I'll tell you what though, if you can name me an XV of players stolen from the Valleys by the regions, you can have a oner off me...

15 Richard Fussell / Ospreys - born in Merthyr
14 Morgan Stoddart / Scarlets - born in Pontypridd
13
12 Tom riley / Dragons - born in Pontypridd
11
10 Ceri Sweeney / Blues - born in Glyncoch
9 Rhys Downes / Blues - born in Pontypridd
8 Andrew Coombs / Dragons - born in Merthyr
7 Martyn williams / Blues - born in Pontypridd
6 Jevron Groves / Dragons - born in Pontypridd / Johnathan Edwards / Scarlets - born in Pontypridd
5 Robert sidoli / Dragons - born in Merthyr
4 Lou Reed / Scarlets - born in Treorchy
3
2 Kristian Dacey / Blues - born in Merthyr / Rhys Williams / Blues - born in Pontypridd / Matthew Rees / Scarlets - born in Tonyrefail
1 Gethin Jenkins / Blues - born in Llantwin Fadre

Blimey, that's some team, isn't it? Even leaving out the holes, half of them predate the regions, the other half developed through the regional academies or were plucked from the premiership. And none of them were 'taken'.

Alyn, any team with Fussel Riley and Sweeney for starters are a crap team... Speaking of which, how has Tom Riley broke into the Waratahs S15 team?

Casartelli wrote:To be fair, the businessplans/forecasts of any of the other regions/superclubs look equally rubbish on paper.

(e.g. Cardiff pay £500k pa rent on a massive football stadium and Llanelli have a multi million pound deferred interest loan from the council propping up theirs!)

In financial terms - Welsh domestic rugby is never 'viable' - all the teams rely on massive subsidies from benefactors and the WRU to keep them afloat.

Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport have no divine monopoly on hosting pro rugby - if we're going to stick with the superclub model then 'Valleys Rugby' are entitled to have a crack at it.

Be much better if the WRU just created proper regions, of course...

Care to post the links to these business plans you've seen?

You can't bang on about re-creating 'proper regions' and demonise subsidising pro-rugby, you can't have a professional tier in a broke, geographically dispersed and hopelessly parochial country where watching rugby is a niche interest any other way.

As for the hosting issue by this kind of warped logic Ulster, Leinster and Connacht aren't regions. No, they play in their population centres, where the density of people and transport links is greatest. Do people in Pontypridd refuse to go to the Heath if they chop their finger off? At the end of the day around 20,000 people travel into Newport to work every day from the Valleys (myself included) and double that at least into Cardiff so why this hosting thing is such an issue is beyond me. As I said it's people desperate to be disenfranchised looking for excuses to feel so.

Griff wrote:The thing they don't mention, and which surely has a huge bearing, is how they intend convincing the other Pro 12 nations (is it still called 'Celtic Rugby Ltd'?) to let them in. We've got 12 teams already. 13 makes one team sit out a match each week. It also adds an additional cost to the Irish, scots and Italian teams in terms of travel and accommodation. Plus, it is an extra game for everyone in an already congested fixture list where players play too many games as it is. It also assumes that someone else is kicked out of the Amlin cup as you can't play that with an odd number. Who should be sacrificed for the sake of this region? Someone from a devloping nation?

The only way it would work is if they were to replace another region, e.g. my beloved Dragons. We've not exactly set the world on fire in the last 8 seasons so I wouldn't put it past the WRU exchanging one for a new one.

I think Griff's comment is the critical one but I also question how they'll convince Ebbw and Bridgend to leave their own regions and join this new Valleys region (based in Ponty) as there are many fans from the Ebbw region who are very big Dragons fans and the region is doing a lot of work in that area and the Cross Keys are (I'm assuming both clubs would take big financial hits to become part of this new region) and Bridgend, with Cuddy's money are part of the Ospreys region, becoming much more included (as can be seen by the attendances for the LV games) and seem to be enjoying being part of the Ospreys - and when games were split between Ponty and Bridgend before it didn't go down to well, so not sure what will have changed.

I do commend all the fans who are willing to pay £260 roughly (£100 share, plus £160 season ticket) plus travelling to the various stadiums to see a development side get hammered every week.

Stone Motif wrote:

Casartelli wrote:To be fair, the businessplans/forecasts of any of the other regions/superclubs look equally rubbish on paper.

(e.g. Cardiff pay £500k pa rent on a massive football stadium and Llanelli have a multi million pound deferred interest loan from the council propping up theirs!)

In financial terms - Welsh domestic rugby is never 'viable' - all the teams rely on massive subsidies from benefactors and the WRU to keep them afloat.

Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport have no divine monopoly on hosting pro rugby - if we're going to stick with the superclub model then 'Valleys Rugby' are entitled to have a crack at it.

Be much better if the WRU just created proper regions, of course...

Care to post the links to these business plans you've seen?

You can't bang on about re-creating 'proper regions' and demonise subsidising pro-rugby, you can't have a professional tier in a broke, geographically dispersed and hopelessly parochial country where watching rugby is a niche interest any other way.

As for the hosting issue by this kind of warped logic Ulster, Leinster and Connacht aren't regions. No, they play in their population centres, where the density of people and transport links is greatest. Do people in Pontypridd refuse to go to the Heath if they chop their finger off? At the end of the day around 20,000 people travel into Newport to work every day from the Valleys (myself included) and double that at least into Cardiff so why this hosting thing is such an issue is beyond me. As I said it's people desperate to be disenfranchised looking for excuses to feel so.

The Irish provinces have existed for centuries - long before rugby came along. They have historic significance that our made up 'regions' don't. I assume you didn't mention Munster as they play in two 'population centres'? And even where there is one home venue - they never called the rugby teams 'Belfast Whites', 'Dublin Blues', 'Cork/Limerick Reds' etc.

I don't know anyone who feels, or wants to feel, disenfranchised. Not sure what it means. Sounds like American corporate-speak gibberish. I'd just like at least one region, someday, to be relevant in European rugby.

I did know a fella that chopped his own finger off once. Didn't go to the Heath though.

Not the point your beef as stated is with games being hosted in one specific place. History has nothing to do with them playing in the biggest city in their respective areas.

As for 'dienfranchised', ask Owen Smith MP: "Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region". They want to be part of a region, but not badly enough to pop down the road to do it.

There's no more mileage in picking on the names either, you want the WRU to set up 'proper regions', what do you propose to call them if they need centuries-old names to qualify as regions? Siluria?

The Celtic Warriors played only 3 times at Sardis Road and there was 6 months between their 2nd and last fixtures.
Hardly surprising that the Ponty faithful didn't turn out in big numbers to support a clearly one sided so called "merger".
Then to add insult to injury, when the WRU culled the Warriors (with the help of standalone clubs Cardiff and Llanelli), Ponty fans were told that their pretend "region" was now Cardiff.

I think most people would agree that 'Silurian Dragons' would be a pretty magnificent name for a rugby team.

Cardiff Dave wrote:The Celtic Warriors played only 3 times at Sardis Road and there was 6 months between their 2nd and last fixtures.
Hardly surprising that the Ponty faithful didn't turn out in big numbers to support a clearly one sided so called "merger".
Then to add insult to injury, when the WRU culled the Warriors (with the help of standalone clubs Cardiff and Llanelli), Ponty fans were told that their pretend "region" was now Cardiff.

Come off it, all Ponty brought to the table was debt. There's no point martyring them because you want Cardiff to be a superclub.