The state of Irish rugby:

First topic message reminder :

European:
Leinster look like and play like a great side clearly capable of winning back-to-back HECs and an absolute delight to watch. You can't deny that they are head and shoulders above anyone else in the competition.
Munster are the Tigers of Ireland - Loads of dog and grit and some flair - but showing signs of slowly fading from the scene.
Ulster is the upcoming Province pushing to replace Munster as second side. But reliant on a large Saffer contingent (my favourite :wink:)

International:

Poor recently in terms of results.

The side is not equal to the sum of its parts:
And the popular opinion is that the current incumbent (whose contract was extended 12 months ago for an additional two years prior to RWC) needs replacing.

But Declan replaced EOS.
And the popular opinion was that Dec was better than a the then current incumbent (whose contract was extended for an additional four years 12 months prior to the 2007RWC) needed replacing.

But Eddy replaced Warren Gatland because he wasn't good enough ...

Dowlais,

Most of the flyhalves are uncapped. Madigan will get his first cap soon. Keatley already has caps.

In the centre only Darren Cave from them has caps.

All those second rows have caps. Ryan has 18 caps. Toner and Tuohy have a hadnful each.

roddersm wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:but to just dismiss the quality that the NIQ players have brought to your provinces could sound a little arrogant.

Yes and to attribute the disproportianate success that the provinces have had and continue to have compared to the National side to a limited and relatively small number of NIQ players strikes of complete ignorance.

Leinster are reigning HEC champions and probably the best team in Europe. They have 3 NIQs in their starting line up. Do you seriously think that there is not the quality players available from the other teams to plug the gap left by Nacewa and Thorn?

If you take the Irish qualified Leinster players and add the likes of Paul O'Connell, Stephen Ferris, Tommy Bowe, Donnacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahoney, Rory Best, keith Earls, Conor Murray, Dan Tuohy, Darren Cave, Andrew Trimble, Ronan O'Gara etc. into the mix then the sum of the parts should be much better, not worse than the Leinster 1st XV.

Lack off players is certainly not Irelands problem.

No probably about it, they "ARE" the best team in Europe.

Also, I do not think there are any players in Ireland better than Nacewa, Thorn or Botha, in fact I do not think there are any in and around the entire British Isles as good as them. Adam Jones might be as good a scrummager as Botha, but that's as close as it gets.

What if we almost exclusively picked Leinster players a la Ospreys in 2008:

01 Cian Healy
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Mike Ross
04 Leo Cullen
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Sean O'Brien
07 Shane Jennings
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Eoin Reddan
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Luke Fitzgerald
12 Fergus McFadden
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

red_stag wrote:What if we almost exclusively picked Leinster players a la Ospreys in 2008:

01 Cian Healy
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Mike Ross
04 Leo Cullen
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Sean O'Brien
07 Shane Jennings
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Eoin Reddan
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Luke Fitzgerald
12 Fergus McFadden
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

If we did that stag we'd be the best team in the world (maybe) ..... we may have to play all our matches behind closed doors though....

And that stag, is the real elephant in the room

It is indeed. Internatal political bullshoite and whats more everyone knows it.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais,

Most of the flyhalves are uncapped. Madigan will get his first cap soon. Keatley already has caps.

In the centre only Darren Cave from them has caps.

All those second rows have caps. Ryan has 18 caps. Toner and Tuohy have a hadnful each.

Ireland have always been strong in the second row, so I would expect them to have the most caps between them to be fair, but you really do need to start giving your backs and forwards more exposure at the top or by the time they get to international time they will be in their mid twenties and untested.

Dowlais, I would say only in a small minority of positions is it a problem.

Prop, Centre and if Kidney doesn't pick Madigan this summer then Flyhalf too.

That aside I think the conveyor belt moves quite nicely.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Who has dismissed the quality of the NIQ players though? Your statement that Ireland are better at buying talent than producing it, is what is being dismissed.

Rory, you dismissed it when you said that Leinster could probably win the HC with an all Irish team. Is that the same "could probably" as we use in Wales ? You know the old phrase "We could probably beat anyone on our day" or "We could probably win the world cup this time".

01 Cian Healy
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Mike Ross

Would not that front row be put through the wringer a few times?

Portnoy wrote:

01 Cian Healy
02 Richardt Strauss
03 Mike Ross

Would not that front row be put through the wringer a few times?

Sure what Irish front row wont be.

Every team has weaknesses. The Aussie's never have a very strong scrum. They are vulnerable to being scrummaged off the park sometimes like England did to us recently, and England did to them in the '07 RWC. But they are Tri nations champs and have won two RWC's, because they play to their strengths. We don't.

LordDowlias you're saying we should be capping these youngsters. But Kidney wouldn't in the last 6 Nations. He started 18 players. The three changes were all down to injury. That's the point I always make here. I think Kidney is the problem. And it got worse this year, as I think he's feeling the pressure after all the poor results and is retreating into a conservative shell.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Every team has weaknesses. The Aussie's never have a very strong scrum. They are vulnerable to being scrummaged off the park sometimes like England did to us recently, and England did to them in the '07 RWC. But they are Tri nations champs and have won two RWC's, because they play to their strengths. We don't.

LordDowlias you're saying we should be capping these youngsters. But Kidney wouldn't in the last 6 Nations. He started 18 players. The three changes were all down to injury. That's the point I always make here. I think Kidney is the problem. And it got worse this year, as I think he's feeling the pressure after all the poor results and is retreating into a conservative shell.

That's fair enough Feckless, but as the old saying goes, "you can only take a horse to water".

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:Dowlais,

Most of the flyhalves are uncapped. Madigan will get his first cap soon. Keatley already has caps.

In the centre only Darren Cave from them has caps.

All those second rows have caps. Ryan has 18 caps. Toner and Tuohy have a hadnful each.

Ireland have always been strong in the second row, so I would expect them to have the most caps between them to be fair, but you really do need to start giving your backs and forwards more exposure at the top or by the time they get to international time they will be in their mid twenties and untested.

Yeah, tell us about it. We've been very conservative in our selection in the backs under Kidney in the last 2 years. D'Arcy has started 17 consecutive Six Nations games at 12. Considering he peaked in his international form about two years before the start of that run and has had some shocking games in there on the way, it's very worrying that the coaches won't consider giving new players a chance.

Hear hear. I would respect Kidney more, if he actually internally re-assessed what is happening here. He must know by now, that he cannot take this bunch of proven, talented players any lower.

Leave Deccie. Leave with some pride man.

There are rumours going around that he may take on Schmidt as backs coach for NZ. I hope that does not come about. Really do. It would improve us immeasureably, but it would only prolong the continuing overall agony under the wrong Head Coach.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I do not think there are any players in Ireland better than Nacewa, Thorn or Botha, in fact I do not think there are any in and around the entire British Isles as good as them. Adam Jones might be as good a scrummager as Botha, but that's as close as it gets.

Have to agree with that. All key. Add Pienaar & Afoa for Ulster's cause.

Leinster are the best team in Europe they would be the best team in Europe without a single NIQ player on their books.

Of course BOD will be missed but on the whole the talent coming through the Irish age groups is fine. In the backs, next year, there will only be 5 players between Munster, Leinster and Ulster who are NIQ - Pienaer, Payne, Lualua, Howlett and Nacewa

TH apart we will be fine and some of the new guys will be better than those departing.

What is Irish rugby not doing that's preventing us from producing good tightheads? Is our attitude to scrummaging wrong? I know a guy who plays as a hooker for his college, who says he's pretty much told to play like a flanker.

Maybe scrummaging is less important at underage levels. And results of schools rugby are taken so seriously, that they're focusing on winning, more than teaching youngsters the technique of scrummaging well.

There's a similar complaint in British football. Underage coaches are all about winning, and are picking the biggest guys to outmuscle opponents. At the same age Spanish and Dutch kids are simply being taught technique and results don't matter.

Or maybe it's to do with our small player base? Props need to be physical freaks as well as technically brilliant in the scrum. Maybe it's one position where a much larger population and player base is important. It just makes it more likely for these types of freaks to appear on the scene.

I'd love to see children here playing in their own weight category rather than age group. It would put the emphasis back on skills and not have slow develpers being clobbered and losing heart.

Whatever needs to be done to nurture tight head props needs to be done now. Well, no, actually ten years ago. But now would be good too.