Most under rated/unfufilled talent?

As the title says, who do you think hasnt quite fulfilled there potential or never got a fair crack on the international scene?

For me i feel, Bob Casey was pretty hard done by. Would have liked to have seen him given a proper run in an Ireland jersey.

I also cant understand why James Simpson Daniel never added to his caps. I know he had a problem with injuries but when fit what a player in my opinion.

I've always felt that Ollie Smith would have achieved a lot in his England career had he not had the misfortune to be peaking at the same time as Robinson took control of the England set up. Instead of the young partnership of Abbott and Smith that Sir Clive seemed to be eying up for the long term we had Noon and Tindall with Smith dumped out on the wing. Sadly personal and then fitness issues have blighted Ollie's career but he really should have been a shining light in an England midfield that needed something.

Cipriani is an unfulfilled talent but that is purely of his own making.

Ollie Smith is a great shout Sam. JSD is incredibly harshly done by, but another to fall victim to injuries. I would put Tom Rees in that same bracket- unfortunately having to cut short what would have been a great and prosperous career i'm sure, due to injury.

I think Nick Kennedy could have been given another go in the England jersey, because he is a god player in my opinion, especially since he's bulked out a bit now and adopted a little more physicality.

So many Welsh guys I can hardly list them all.

Andrew Gibbs was probably the biggest in my opinion, he was an blindside from Newbridge who got capped for Wales in the mid 90's.

He was in the same age group as Scott Quinell and everyone considered him to be a bigger potential star than Quinell. Though he refused to leave Newbridge and got very unlucky with shin split injuries which ruined any chance he had. Loads of teams tried to poach him in the amateur era from Newbridge but he stayed loyal but did eventually leave in the professional era. He is now a coach at Newbridge.

He had so much talent and got capped so early he should only be retireing about now, I think he'd be 35 or 36 now.

Controversial one...Matt Banahan?

Jon Davies the Llanelli tighthead, on an international level.

A fantastic player Sured up our scrum in our 94 5 nations championship win, was the cornerstone of the Llanelli and scarlets scrum for years.

From a purely Irish point of view:

01 Darragh Hurley
02 Brian Blaney
03 Simon Best
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Bob Casey
06 Alan Quinlan
07 Shane Jennings
08 Trevor Brennan
09 Paul O'Donoghue
10 Ian Humphreys
11 Simon Geoghegan
12 James Downey
13 Darren Cave
14 Fionn Carr
15 Denis Hurley

Ahh Simon Geoghegan....class...

Cave has had a chap called O'Driscoll to contend with - and maybe has got injured too much lately

but even then he would probably & incorrectly be behind Earls

Neil Best and Simon Geoghegan from an Irish point of view.

Best was one of the best Irish backrowers I've seen in recent years and as good as the likes of SOB, Heaslip, Wallace or Ferris.

Geoghegan came along a generation too early. He'd have scored 50 + international tries outside O'Driscoll and D'arcy.

Overall Gavin Henson. Potentially the best inside centre on the planet.

Nick Wood
Graham Dawe
Dave Flatman
Nick Kennedy
Richard Blaze
Tom Rees
Jamie Forrester
Dan Ward Smith
Nick Duncan- tragic
Shane gegarthy
Tom Varndell
Antony Allen
Matthew Tait
James simpson Daniel
Tom Voyce

JSD is a good shout. Cracking player, totally wasted by numerous England coaching regimes.

Geordan Murphy possibly from an Irish point of view as well.

I think Nick Wood is a cracking shout aswell...

At a time when England have been crying out for a real quality and consistant Loosehead...he has been consistantly overlooked for a guy Sheridan who was strong and lived on stuffing the aussies...but had no technique

Tait, should've been at the fore front of a young exciting England. Everything from coaches to injuries got in the way.

roddersm wrote:Neil Best and Simon Geoghegan from an Irish point of view.

Best was one of the best Irish backrowers I've seen in recent years and as good as the likes of SOB, Heaslip, Wallace or Ferris.

Geoghegan came along a generation too early. He'd have scored 50 + international tries outside O'Driscoll and D'arcy.

Overall Gavin Henson. Potentially the best inside centre on the planet.

Oooh Neil Best a good one that I forgot about.

Rodders, you think Geordan Murphy is an unfulfilled talent?

- Has won 2 Heineken Cups with Leicester Tigers
- Has won numerous English Premiership Titles with Leicester Tigers
- Has been captain of Leicester Tigers
- Has played 74 times for Ireland
- Has won a 6 Nations title and Grand Slam with Ireland
- Has captained his country
- Has been selected for the British and Irish Lions
- Has played two test matches for the British and Irish Lions

I can't see how he is an unfulfilled talent?

I remember Tim Stimpson (spelling?) being a huge talent. I thought that boy had it all but never seemed to make it to the England side very much. Back in 98/99 i thought he was one of the best players around.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, you think Geordan Murphy is an unfulfilled talent?

- Has won 2 Heineken Cups with Leicester Tigers
- Has won numerous English Premiership Titles with Leicester Tigers
- Has been captain of Leicester Tigers
- Has played 74 times for Ireland
- Has won a 6 Nations title and Grand Slam with Ireland
- Has captained his country
- Has been selected for the British and Irish Lions
- Has played two test matches for the British and Irish Lions

I can't see how he is an unfulfilled talent?

I think Ireland never got the best out of him the way the Tigers did. He had plenty of caps but our tactics and gameplan didn't suit his talents.

From that perspective yes I think he is an unfulfilled talent.

Billy you've lost the plot mate. Stimpson was rubbish. A big lump with limited skills. The chap got more than enough caps.

Hows about Dwayne Peel, Tevor Brennan (dum dum dum ) or Ian Balshaw?

Have i rodders? I thought that Stimpson was a very good player myself. Maybe one of the Leicester fans could have some input.

I thought he was a big strong guy at the start of the Pro era. Decent athlete but limited player. Had a few injuries I think when at Newcastle.

That fella at Bath (forget his name..you know the one!) came along and was a better full back.

I just remember the 98/99--00 seasons when i thought that Stimpson was one of the best out there. Awareness, good ball skills, speed and size. I saw him do some really great stuff.

Stimpson was awesome as part of that famous Leicester team that won consecutive heinekan cups and the prem 5 times on the trot. I'm not sure how many internaational caps he got but he was never a constant, always battling with Matt Perry for the 15 shirt and then Robinson. I cant remember if he was part of the 2003 RWC squad. Great boot and club man but not a brilliant international. I'm fairly certain he was on the '97 Lions tour but cant access wiki to check

Thanks Ovalball. I knew that he was an excellent club player but just never did it on the International stage which is why i had him down as an unfulfilled talent.

Perry.. thats the one...

I'm not saying he wasn't a good player but to me he went as far as he could go. He wasn't a better Full back than Perry, Balshaw or latterly Robinson or Lewsey.

Can't recall if he was on the 1997 Lions tour. Neil Jenkins played 15 in the test side anyway.

roddersm wrote:
Billy you've lost the plot mate. Stimpson was rubbish. A big lump with limited skills.

roddersm wrote:
I'm not saying he wasn't a good player but to me he went as far as he could go. He wasn't a better Full back than Perry, Balshaw or latterly Robinson or Lewsey.

Rodders, thats some turn around in opinion

Bollix! I've been owned!

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to outfox that Billy Bacon! ... .....

Wales!!!

roddersm wrote:You have to get up pretty early in the morning to outfox that Billy Bacon! ... .....

Fecker

Thats a cameronesque u-turn there Rodders!
agreed Billy, Stimpson was an unfulfilled talent when you compare his achievements at club level to Test level as you point out.
Just checked, TS wasnt part of the '03 rWC winning squad. He did tour with the 97 Lions, second to Jenks for the 15 shirt.
He got 19 England caps (35 points) between 1996 and 2002 and 1 Lions cap

Stimmo was a good club player who covered FB and Wing for us. Monster boot, better turn of pace than you would expect but one notch below the international level. Sort of like a slightlky better Hugo Southwell.


Ollie Smith is a good call fo rme. He could have been an awesome 13 for England, did really well in the dirt-trackers on the Lions tour he went on.

In the Bob Casey mould i would like to add Craig gillies. He has been an incredible player - but his peak co-incided with ane era of really good and great English second row forwards. How he was never capped is beyond me though.

Thanks Ovalball. I love it when i catch rodders out

For me he was one of the most frustrating players, bags upon bags of talent at club level but just could not transform that to International level. When i first saw him come on the club scene i thought, hello, England have something special here.

When i was in Australia in 96, i played for Southern Districts Rugby Club (along with Dereck, Del, something who was a former Scotland U21 FB) and we saw a great young 10 come through called Manny Edmonds. This guy had speed, skill and was a good kicker. I thought that he would be something special. I think he played a few times for the Aussies and the club rugby in France but i have no idea what happened to him since.

Anyway most unfulfilled NH talent has got to be Henson, probably followed by Cips but the latter could still make it.

Isn't manny Edmonds at Perpignan - or was any way.

damngoodOvalball wrote:Anyway most unfulfilled NH talent has got to be Henson, probably followed by Cips but the latter could still make it.

Henson may not have had the career he would have hoped for, but 40(ish) caps I think, a part of at least one winning GS team and a Lions tour. Not too shabby really.

LondonTiger wrote:Isn't manny Edmonds at Perpignan - or was any way.

Is he still there? I thought he would have retired by now.

Luke Fitzgerald. We were told early on in his career he had prodigious talent, he certainly does have pace, power, skill and good hands. However he hasn't quite learned to harness all his qualitys and produce consistently high performances. Sometimes I feel he needs to drop a lung and make smarter decisions.

LondonTiger wrote:

damngoodOvalball wrote:Anyway most unfulfilled NH talent has got to be Henson, probably followed by Cips but the latter could still make it.

Henson may not have had the career he would have hoped for, but 40(ish) caps I think, a part of at least one winning GS team and a Lions tour. Not too shabby really.

Has never played in a Rugby World Cup. Has 1 test appearance for Lions and has 33 caps for Wales since winning his first cap 11 years ago. Thats a very poor return on the talent he once showed.

Big Johnnie Beattie? Fingers crossed his move to Montpellier works out

Henson def fulfills the unfufilled part but I would have thought he rates as Overrated instead of under rated!

ahhh got a cracker! ....

... Isa Nacewa! It's a tragedy not to see that fella on the international stage! That guy is a genius!

roddersm wrote:ahhh got a cracker! ....

... Isa Nacewa! It's a tragedy not to see that fella on the international stage! That guy is a genius!

If he is that much of a Genius, surely he would have played more International matches

Face it rodders, he is a usless lump

Fully agree with a lot of the names thrown around already but I'd like to add three Scarlets catalysts who I felt should have reached higher honours. Those are Dafydd James, Barry Davies and Darren Daniel. All scoring tries for fun at one point.

James former record try-scorer in the Heino and for a side that only made it beyond the groups once that is pretty damn impressive. Never showed the same scoring ability for Wales when he did get his chance.

Davies easily first choice fullback for the Scarlets before he left for Brive. Brilliant under the high ball and an excellent finisher. I used to be mystified as to how he'd only won one Welsh cap.

Daniel just dropped off the map after he'd won top try-scorer in the ML during the 06/07 season. Had no idea what had become of him but he had been blitzing defences in all comps before that.

There's also the Ulster flanker who had been showing promise before injury ended his career early, Pollock. I've forgotten his first name.

Nick Evans was an unfulfilled talent. Luckily we had Donald to kick the winning goal. Paul Henderson and Marty Holah were similar underutilised understudies.

Sometimes injury can rob a player of his best years. I remember Simon Taylor had a real run of bad luck with injuries. He missed the 2005 Lions tour due to injury even though he travelled all the way to NZ. Wilkinson was robbed a lot of his years halfway through his career. Shane Horgan was coming into some good form and probably would've regained his test spot before injury ended his career unceremoniously.

Sometimes the coaches shift a player around willy nilly and ruin his chances. Fitzgerald, Hook, Tait, Lamont (Sean also fits in the injured camp as well so much that his name should be changed to Lament) can be seen as examples of that.

Kia did we ever see the best off Jonah Lomu or Christian Cullen?

Jonathon Davies is another if you class his time in League as lost.

Most under rated in his time Fraser Walters

Most unfulfilled talent Tom Rees (would have been a great captain for England and the missing 7 we need)

rodders I think we saw enough of Cullen and Lomu to be considered as their best. Their kidney complaint and knee injury may well have prevented their even better best, if you´ll allow me that linguistic anomaly.

Not so sure on Lomu Kia, he lost much of his 20's due to kidney problems.

Cullen was discarded by Mitchell when he was still in his prime.