Some overseas players to get a look in with Wallabies

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/aru-to-select-overseas-based-players/

They have to have 60 caps, 7 years contracted to the ARU, and will need to have agreed to be back in Super Rugby.

So.... Giteau then?

yappysnap wrote:So.... Giteau then?

I was going to say that. How convenient.

Giteau and Mitchell.

Is Mitchell good enough now though?

With JoC, Speight, Horn, Honey Badger etc on the wings he isn't needed.

Just thinking about the potential Australia backline and it is so awesome.

9. Phipps/Genia/White
10. Foley/Toomua/Cooper/Giteau
11. Speight/JoC
12. Toomua/Beale/Giteau/Lealiifano
13. AAC/Kuridrani/JoC
14. Horn/Cummins/Mogg
15. Folau/Beale

That is the Wallabies back to their best.

I think this is a mistake.

Once players go overseas their hunger dissipates for representing their country.

We can wait and see. It hasn't worked for certain ABs (McCalister springs to mind). It could work for these guys, and if it does then that Wallabies squad looks even more dangerous. Not good news for Wales, Giteau has a history of unlocking our defence.

Will the nutter in charge of Toulon allow Matt Giteau to play in the WC, after all there will be league games during the WC and you know what he is like, also, didn't Giteau retire from international rugby as soon as he signed for Toulon ? I could be wrong on this but I am sure that is why he is on big money.

I tend to agree with Biltong. There's probably a NH-SH culture clash with returning players. Maybe a bit of guilt and mistrust thrown in there to. Once you're gone, you're gone baby, sayonara.

There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

ebop wrote:I tend to agree with Biltong. There's probably a NH-SH culture clash with returning players. Maybe a bit of guilt and mistrust thrown in there to. Once you're gone, you're gone baby, sayonara.

Why is it different to players going to Japan and then returning to either NZ/SA/Oz though? Seemingly, nobody has issues of guilt and mistrust with that.

The Saint wrote:

ebop wrote:I tend to agree with Biltong. There's probably a NH-SH culture clash with returning players. Maybe a bit of guilt and mistrust thrown in there to. Once you're gone, you're gone baby, sayonara.

Why is it different to players going to Japan and then returning to either NZ/SA/Oz though? Seemingly, nobody has issues of guilt and mistrust with that.

who said that?

Overseas players are overseas players, I am yet to see a comment that players plying their trade in Japan is viewed differently to players plying their trade in Europe.

Surely it depends a bit on the individual. You can still want to play for your country but be deemed not good enough by the coaching staff. Then it's just a choice of where you want to play club rugby. Be deemed good enough after that point a slightly different issue.

Saint, the guilt from the returning player and the mistrust for the returning player was not related to the NH-SH point. Dunno, I'm probably drawing a long bow. I've lived overseas and returned home and I know myself there is a reintegration and reacquaintance period. It can take a while to make bonds again. That's all. The point about SH-NH is a rugby style/culture thing. The only NZ player I can think of that has returned and been as good as he was when he left is Kaino. All the rest, have been crap.

'Guilt' and 'mistrust' are pretty strong words to be linked to somebody deciding to play sport in a different country.

Why not use these words? These are guys that 'deserted' their brothers for money and now they want back in. I bet it's not easy to get back inside the fold. And the woeful performances of returning players indicates something changes. Maybe returning players have so much money and have 'set their family up for life' (terrible cliche they always trott out), that they don't have to worry about fire in the belly.

What about players like Haskell who wanted to go experience different environments and cultures. He was always going to come back and when he did he had a whole lot of extra experience. Still plays brainless rugby from time to time....

The point is players change, just like people change, some will retain their hunger, others wont.

Hence the risk outweighs the reward of selecting them.

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ebop wrote:I tend to agree with Biltong. There's probably a NH-SH culture clash with returning players. Maybe a bit of guilt and mistrust thrown in there to. Once you're gone, you're gone baby, sayonara.

Why is it different to players going to Japan and then returning to either NZ/SA/Oz though? Seemingly, nobody has issues of guilt and mistrust with that.

who said that?

Overseas players are overseas players, I am yet to see a comment that players plying their trade in Japan is viewed differently to players plying their trade in Europe.

It just doesn't seem to get mentioned in the same vein, or just not at all, when we're discussing mass player exodus'. That and you seemed really desperate for Jacque Fourie to come home before.

You've probably mentioned it but what was your opinion on Matfield and Smit going away to France and then returning home? Also, I believe Habana, Botha and Pienaar have represented the Boks while playing overseas.

The Saint wrote:

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ebop wrote:I tend to agree with Biltong. There's probably a NH-SH culture clash with returning players. Maybe a bit of guilt and mistrust thrown in there to. Once you're gone, you're gone baby, sayonara.

Why is it different to players going to Japan and then returning to either NZ/SA/Oz though? Seemingly, nobody has issues of guilt and mistrust with that.

who said that?

Overseas players are overseas players, I am yet to see a comment that players plying their trade in Japan is viewed differently to players plying their trade in Europe.

It just doesn't seem to get mentioned in the same vein, or just not at all, when we're discussing mass player exodus'. That and you seemed really desperate for Jacque Fourie to come home before.

You've probably mentioned it but what was your opinion on Matfield and Smit going away to France and then returning home? Also, I believe Habana, Botha and Pienaar have represented the Boks while playing overseas.

I never wanted any of them to represent the Boks, I have always had an issue with overseas players.

You are welcome to find any evidence of me ever being pro overseas players, no matter who they were.

I'm not saying you were, I actually asked what your stance was on it... Though if Fourie was Welsh then I too would be desperate for him to come back home and play his rugby.

Lostinwales, Haskell was great in NZ and I enjoyed watching him play for the Highlanders, he gave it heaps.

The Saint wrote:I'm not saying you were, I actually asked what your stance was on it... Though if Fourie was Welsh then I too would be desperate for him to come back home and play his rugby.

Nope, don't like overseas players in my bok team, how many players have over the last 3 years lost out on the opportunity to represent the Boks due to Meyer's selection policy?

How many young players have we lost to overseas because they feel they are being blocked?

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:I'm not saying you were, I actually asked what your stance was on it... Though if Fourie was Welsh then I too would be desperate for him to come back home and play his rugby.

Nope, don't like overseas players in my bok team, how many players have over the last 3 years lost out on the opportunity to represent the Boks due to Meyer's selection policy?

How many young players have we lost to overseas because they feel they are being blocked?

Not sure - SA players are frequently going overseas so it must be due to a number of reasons, though not all of them are pushing for quality. The ones that are seem to have several guys in front of them, in areas like 2nd and back-row where SA rugby is strong. Funnily enough a lot of SAs (who don't play pro rugby) happen to expatriate too.

lostinwales wrote:What about players like Haskell who wanted to go experience different environments and cultures. He was always going to come back and when he did he had a whole lot of extra experience. Still plays brainless rugby from time to time....

To be fair, Haskell only went out for a loaf of bread and ended up playing overseas. He still can't remember how it happened. These were strong mitigating circumstances taken into consideration by the English selectors

I don't often feel sorry for Aussies -after all they have the confident attitude, the get-up-and-go spirit, the sun, the sea, the sand, the barbies, the Barbie-dolls....  they have it all and I don't care how brash they are, I have a real soft spot for them and their country.

But I felt sad for them when I heard this.  They're struggling at home with Union, they're now having to admit that even more will go abroad, and they have to admit that the only way they can see themselves keeping their heads above water is to become a bit of a travelling circus - picking up hired-hands as they move from SH to NH and back.  They'll hardly ever have enough quality time with their externally located players, so those players will just try to slot themselves in as best they can when Australia comes up North for tours or WCs.

I do though think they're guilty of lying down too much and taking their punishment in Australia.  They should fight back big time against the rival Australian sports, get better people in to carry that fight and find a way not only to coax their best players back in time but also provide a genuine League rival of the Suction Top14.  They have the climate and lifestyle to rival France but simply need to get off their butts, work hard and begin to get into a position to offer players the same rates as up North.  It would take time and thinking of course.  But the century has time.

With AUS exodous of so many top players leaving it would seem to be inevitable Group 1
just got Harder.
All Blacks it seems is the lone ranger if they succumb then there won`t be many top
players left in NZ.

Biltong wrote:There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

Its just hit us for the first time with Piutau's signing. The first player with a very promising career at a young age has left for the buks with no sign of return. For those who left previously or went on sabaticals like Kaino its different.

Now we are having fringe players being offered millions. It will also get worse. Youth grow up with the thought of dollars in their minds now. A career earning money playing rugby. Its entirely logical to have a thought of I will go anywhere that pays me the most. That way I'm not underselling myself.

And its just as illogical to expect youth of today to think in the way we did in the amateur days- wearing the jersey is everything.
Sadly, beacuse thats all their was back then. And it was more than enough. Today it isn't.

Yep, that is the reality

I sometimes get a sense, when I read phrases like "the shirt was enough for us", that it's saying players today have no moral backbone, or at least a weaker ethical code. Apologies, of course, if that's not at all intended by anyone here.

When Nick Cummins moved to Japan for a short, lucrative contract, he was largely given a pass because his dad has incurable cancer and two of his siblings have cystic fibrosis, which imposes high costs on his family.

There's every reason to be sympathetic, but I couldn't help thinking that it really just boiled down to Cummins wanting to do as much as possible to help his family. That's not so different to the motive many players have when weighing up a life-changing sums of money.

Most may not have any immediate pressing financial concerns, but it's just as honourable to want to give your family some more creature comforts, and give your children a good start in life, as it is to pay medical bills. Life is also unpredictable, not least in that an injury can wipe out your ability to command these sums.

Nothing wrong with what you are saying Rugbyfan, and for that reason when a player goes overseas for more money I have no issue with it whatsoever, what I do have an issue with is selecting him for national duty.

There are players at home who are committed (for the time being at least) to local domestic rugby, they are hungry to represent their nation.

For that reason I rather give the jersey to someone hungry to prove himself rather than to someone who has already done the World Cup winning thing, etc.

i know from first hand experience what a team that is filled with hungry motivated players can do.

Just look at the Lions in Super Rugby as an example. No big stars, no real game breakers, but an inspirational captain and a bunch of youngsters fighting for every win

With any luck, the French rugby team will become a laughing stock and go the way of the English football team where we don't recognise any of the players. The clubs won't care but hopefully their union will. In hindsight, good on Oz, they are putting a spanner in the works for the poachers. Now the ABs are left with not selecting overseas players so we may see more of our players getting pilfered. Awesome. I wish French rugby would f..k right off.

I can understand how important it is to nurture the game at the domestic level but I think you can choose not to select overseas players without damning them with talk of how they have shown they are not hungry by going abroad.

It makes us much sense to me to think of Will Carling, Josh Lewsey, Rory Underwood and Tim Rodber as disloyal for giving up their military careers to concentrate on rugby.

Does any other sport oblige an athlete to choose between professional opportunity and representative honours? You can play football, golf, tennis, baseball, basketball etc anywhere you want and still get picked for your country. The closest comparison I can think of is cricket, where playing 20/20 in India was frowned upon. In that case, though, it was because the games themselves clashed with international fixtures.

It's an artificial choice which some unions - including England - have imposed on players. If some decide to choose family, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion they must be turning their back on their country.

I am not condemning them, I am trying to explain why I do not want them selected, we can all be very pc about this, but why talk in circles?

It is what it is, priorities shift, that is understandable in the professional era, but is it unrealistic to categorise players who chose money over country as ex representatives?

Consider this, Habana plays for Toulon, I never see him play, unless there is a rare opportunity in the ERCC, but even then I have no vested interest in watching the match.

Do I rather want to see him in a bok jersey than a guy playing in SA every weekend?

No chance, as I no longer identify with him

Further to my point.

Selection of a national team is something discussed in depth by pundits and fans alike, usually you would be able to discuss the pros and cons on every selection, whether the player is in form, or indeed the best in the position.

What do you say about Francois Louw, Habana or even Johan Goosen?

Oh well, so and so has 80 caps to his name, he was the best in his position in 2011 so we will just trust he is in good form and still the number one.

There is no way to compare him to local players as they never face him, so his reputation and experience outweighs any other logic to selection criteria.

Sir Clive Woodward adds fuel to the fire....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32426596

Meanwhile as discussions start about the next agreement between AP Clubs and the RFU, Bosses at Exeter, Sarries, Leicester and Gloucester as well as COS at quins and Dai young at Wasps state that selecting non english based players would be a bad thing for the English game and would drive player wages (and hence the sums required from RFU) out of the roof.

Tom Wood (admittedly at risk from any inclusion) joins Tom Youngs in vocally disagreeing with selection of such players.

Sounds like the Aussies are panicking after watching England and Wales on Super Saturday!

Cheika doesn't panic...he just breaks things. That's his valve for pressure.

Weren't any doors near by were there??!

For 60 years I've supported Wales, so shouldn't really applaud this decision as Australia's in our world cup pool, but I've long admired the Aussies' pragmatic approach to winning in sport. It may not produce the desired result but good on them for trying.

Biltong wrote:There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

That can't be right Biltong can it. You can not believe in the true desire of overseas players playing for their nation, and you can not agree with overseas players playing for their nation. But you have to believe in overseas players surely. If you don't believe in them so they don't exist.... man I wish all those mercenaries didn't exist in Toulon last weekend.

I agree with your sentiment, if a player prioritises money over country then it can call into question their hunger to represent their country. But it isn't always so clear cut, and I'm sure there are plenty of situations where the ideal of country first gets overtaken by having to earn a crust, provide for a family, secure a family's future, etc.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Biltong wrote:There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

That can't be right Biltong can it.  You can not believe in the true desire of overseas players playing for their nation, and you can not agree with overseas players playing for their nation.  But you have to believe in overseas players surely.  If you don't believe in them so they don't exist.... man I wish all those mercenaries didn't exist in Toulon last weekend.

I agree with your sentiment, if a player prioritises money over country then it can call into question their hunger to represent their country.  But it isn't always so clear cut, and I'm sure there are plenty of situations where the ideal of country first gets overtaken by having to earn a crust, provide for a family, secure a family's future, etc.

So pro sportsmen should have a different set of rules to the rest of us? Utter sanctimonious rubbish. The two are not mutually exclusive and because you want to get paid better in a short career, or learn a new language and culture, does not demean your commitment to your national team.

Gwlad wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Biltong wrote:There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

That can't be right Biltong can it.  You can not believe in the true desire of overseas players playing for their nation, and you can not agree with overseas players playing for their nation.  But you have to believe in overseas players surely.  If you don't believe in them so they don't exist.... man I wish all those mercenaries didn't exist in Toulon last weekend.

I agree with your sentiment, if a player prioritises money over country then it can call into question their hunger to represent their country.  But it isn't always so clear cut, and I'm sure there are plenty of situations where the ideal of country first gets overtaken by having to earn a crust, provide for a family, secure a family's future, etc.

So pro sportsmen should have a different set of rules to the rest of us? Utter sanctimonious rubbish. The two are not mutually exclusive and because you want to get paid better in a short career, or learn a new language and culture, does not demean your commitment to your national team.  

I just love your reactions to my opinions, sanctimonious rubbish to you, a home truth to me

Biltong wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Biltong wrote:There are many reasons why I don't believe in overseas players.

Most pertinent to me is commitment and hunger for the jersey. i will never believe a player who has prioritised more money, new lifestlye etc is hungry to represent his country.

That just doesn't fly, it is all about priorities.

Also, holding back new players with oodles of hunger and potential for the sake of an ageing experienced player for just one more season which turns into 4-5 more seasons is definitely not to the benefit of the national team.

That can't be right Biltong can it.  You can not believe in the true desire of overseas players playing for their nation, and you can not agree with overseas players playing for their nation.  But you have to believe in overseas players surely.  If you don't believe in them so they don't exist.... man I wish all those mercenaries didn't exist in Toulon last weekend.

I agree with your sentiment, if a player prioritises money over country then it can call into question their hunger to represent their country.  But it isn't always so clear cut, and I'm sure there are plenty of situations where the ideal of country first gets overtaken by having to earn a crust, provide for a family, secure a family's future, etc.

So pro sportsmen should have a different set of rules to the rest of us? Utter sanctimonious rubbish. The two are not mutually exclusive and because you want to get paid better in a short career, or learn a new language and culture, does not demean your commitment to your national team.  

I just love your reactions to my opinions, sanctimonious rubbish to you, a home truth to me

I think it's this subject, as we've had run-ins before. I was told that our union needs to better manage players in France...Which is impossible because it's dictated by LNR. I'm with you on this one Bilt.

Rugby Fan wrote:http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/aru-to-select-overseas-based-players/

They have to have 60 caps, 7 years contracted to the ARU, and will need to have agreed to be back in Super Rugby.

Jaysus, they might as well have added "Their name must be Matt Giteau".

With Quade Cooper joining Toulon. in the summer. Do you think he will still be in the Australia world cup squad?

majesticimperialman wrote:With Quade Cooper joining Munster in the summer. Do you think he will still be in the Australia world cup squad?

Munster? Toulon surely