All Out Cricket's Discussion Of The Week - What do the Windies need to do to challenge England?

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This week on www.alloutcricket.com Rohan Kallicharan lauds the West Indies pace attack.

http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/comment/england-west-indies-test-series-preview

But have the tourists got enough firepower to trouble England this summer?

Shanky, most of the debate around Gayle is based on misinformation and myths propagated by the WICB. As the team fel from the high points of yester years, supporters and fans looking for some reason just get on to whatever bandwagon is available. They are so desperate that a half decent session in a test match is often considered like a win.
Often, player power also contributed to troubles in WI cricket, and the media blits by the WICB and co ensured Gayle has somehow embodied all that and he's getting vilified left right and centre mostly unfairly. The mess that WI cricket finds itself in, most of the blaim should go to the WICB. Of course the players could and should have done better at some crucial moments, but that is secondary.
As far as the English media and cricket supporter network is concerned, most of the negativity at Gayle is the result of some comments that he made after that Off the FTP replacement series that played 2 years ago.Most here forget that statement came in a very particular context, in an environment of utter frustration.
Add the general climate of hostility directed at the IPL, you get a clearer idea.
But most sensible people who would like West Indies to field their best team and perform well, would want Gayle to be an integral part of it, unlike someone who is just there to offer mostly negative onfield captaincy, and intrigue, and the politics of exclusion and marginalization off it.

Aha, well, Tino Best has gained yet another recall to the WI test squad, as the 'Archangel' Gabriel is injured and out of the series.
Consistent with the Sammy-Gibbson regime, yet another rather foolhardy move.
Best never found himself fitting into international test crickt, as his 14 test career bowling average of almost coupled with a strike rate of 78 would suggest. The only thing he managed then was to bowl fast, all over the place lots of short ill directed balls.......
Now he's 30+, not the best age for a fast bowler to come back into the side either.
Someone like an Andre Russell would have been a much better choice. Russell too has had problems consistently moving the ball, although his ODI career is much more promissing than that of Tino. Besides, Russell is a far better all-rounder than 'Captain Superb', and in an A tour, he troubled both the English and the visiting Indian batters.
Another factor that has to be considered is that With Shane Shillingford warming up enough to take place in the Xteam, West Indies would mostly go in with Roach, Rampaul Shillingford and the Automatic 4th bowler. Someone like Russell, by being in an international test environment could have learned a lot, by watching, and if possible talking to someone like a Jimmy Anderson.
But Of course Tino was someone who played against Bangladesh when the first rate players went on strike, and may be this is a way of approval of ATTITUDE.

msp83 wrote:Shanky, most of the debate around Gayle is based on misinformation and myths propagated by the WICB.

Possibly. In my case it is based on what I've seen from him on the field, and the fact that no matter which way you slice it, he has made himself unavailable for several international commitments by playing in the IPL. Shanky writes that given he wasn't guaranteed a place there was no reason to make himself available. On this, he has it completely the wrong way round: you make yourself available to play for your country, then you find out whether or not you've been picked. If you're serious about playing international cricket then you make yourself available as a matter of course - this is a demand I make on any player I may pick or not at my level (and no, "I'm going away on holliday" is not a valid excuse) so I see no reason why Gayle thinks he should be guaranteed a place before he frees himself up.

Anyway as I say, I don't think this debate is going anywhere fast. If you compare the performance of this West Indian side with the one Gayle was involved in which toured England a few years back that's all you need to know.

Just the one series may not be enough to make such absolute judgements, particularly a series played in controversial circumstances.
And Gayle didn't make himself unavailable for selection for the West Indies, for the Pakistan series last year, he just wasn't picked, and there was no explanation whatsoever. Now that is not the way you treat one of your senior players. They have to be treated with respect, and Gayle was in fact humiliated.
In fact Shivnarine Chanderpaul and Jerome Taylor said things about the team and the team management. What has to be noted is that Chris Gayle wasn't picked for the WI, because he refused to beg the forgiveness of the team management and the WICB for some critical comments he made about the set up, not because he was not available, or because he had signed up for the IPL.
And there also the matter of an arbitration case against the WICB, to which he is a party. This humiliation and continued non-selection has to be understood in all these larger context. Gayle's non-selection is a political decision, there is absolutely nothing cricketing about it, and the responsibility is entirely that of the WICB and the team management of Sammy and Gibbson.

Mike Selig wrote:

msp83 wrote:Shanky, most of the debate around Gayle is based on misinformation and myths propagated by the WICB.

Possibly. In my case it is based on what I've seen from him on the field, and the fact that no matter which way you slice it, he has made himself unavailable for several international commitments by playing in the IPL. Shanky writes that given he wasn't guaranteed a place there was no reason to make himself available. On this, he has it completely the wrong way round: you make yourself available to play for your country, then you find out whether or not you've been picked. If you're serious about playing international cricket then you make yourself available as a matter of course - this is a demand I make on any player I may pick or not at my level (and no, "I'm going away on holliday" is not a valid excuse) so I see no reason why Gayle thinks he should be guaranteed a place before he frees himself up.

Anyway as I say, I don't think this debate is going anywhere fast. If you compare the performance of this West Indian side with the one Gayle was involved in which toured England a few years back that's all you need to know.

Again, you are missing the point. When did he make himself unavailable? He was dropped.

msp83 wrote:Shanky, most of the debate around Gayle is based on misinformation and myths propagated by the WICB. As the team fel from the high points of yester years, supporters and fans looking for some reason just get on to whatever bandwagon is available. They are so desperate that a half decent session in a test match is often considered like a win.
Often, player power also contributed to troubles in WI cricket, and the media blits by the WICB and co ensured Gayle has somehow embodied all that and he's getting vilified left right and centre mostly unfairly. The mess that WI cricket finds itself in, most of the blaim should go to the WICB. Of course the players could and should have done better at some crucial moments, but that is secondary.
As far as the English media and cricket supporter network is concerned, most of the negativity at Gayle is the result of some comments that he made after that Off the FTP replacement series that played 2 years ago.Most here forget that statement came in a very particular context, in an environment of utter frustration.
Add the general climate of hostility directed at the IPL, you get a clearer idea.
But most sensible people who would like West Indies to field their best team and perform well, would want Gayle to be an integral part of it, unlike someone who is just there to offer mostly negative onfield captaincy, and intrigue, and the politics of exclusion and marginalization off it.

Agree with each and everything.

I dont see the same criticism directed towards Sarwan because he is playing County Cricket and not the IPL. I am not a fan of the IPL by any stretch of imagination but I find some of the views that I have read on Twitter highly inconsistent, to be honest.

I have folowed most of the first test between England on TV or TMS digital, but my IPL engagements have been limited to watching during dinner time or tea time, and following some of the matches live on cricinfo or reading the score card. I tried to watch most of RCB's matches though, just because Gayle was playing. Each run he made added to my frustration, while absolutely mediocre players were getting chances after chances for doing nothing, one of the best players WI produced in recent times had to spend time playing a T-20 tournament, where of course he has emerged as the most consistent and best player across the world, but he could play test matches, and at a much higher stndard than some of the others who have been selected for his side. And considering all these are the result of political issues, well, it just adds to the hole nonsense.

Julian Hunt, Ernest Helaire and their band of yes men are the greatest enimies of West Indies cricket, the sooner they are thrown out, the better it will be for WI cricket.

I don't know to much about this Gayle vs WICB disagreement but I take it, he's not playing due to money issues?

Here is an interesting on the issue, some very interesting points there, I don't quite agree with some of it, but the spirit is absolutely right, and so are most of the arguments.

http://www.caribbean360.com/opinion/577118.html#axzz1vbgCapGn

Stella wrote:I don't know to much about this Gayle vs WICB disagreement but I take it, he's not playing due to money issues?

Not quite, although most of the media world made it out like that. Gayle isn't playing because he isn't picked. He's not been selected because he made some comments about the WICB and the team management after he was left out in the cold without an explanation after the World Cup and he refused to beg their forgiveness for the same.
Gayle, along with Kiron Pollard and Dwayne Bravo had rejected the contract offered by the WICB in 2010, as the terms and conditions were not acceptable to them, and the IPL, among a number of other factors was one of the reasons.
Players like Pollard, Dwayne Bravo, Marlon Samuels and Sunil Narine, were all subsequently allowed to pick and choose matches that they wanted to play for the West Indies. So IPL was not at all the issue that has kept Chris Gayle out of the West Indies side, it is political issues between the board and the team management on the one hand and Gayle on the other that has led to this situation.
In fact, Gayle wasn't picked up by any IPL sides in the initial auction, as the WI was scheduled to play Pakistan during the IPL last year. It was only after he was discarded for no reason by the Board that the RCB picked him up as a replacement player for an injured Dirk Nannes.

Cheers
Damn shame that Gayle, Bravo and Sarwan aren't playing.

Indeed. particularly Gayle and Dwayne Bravo. Sarwan deserved the axing at the time of his dropping, as he wasn't really scoring runs at all. But now he has rediscovered his form, and a class player is a class player. Besides, the man who replaced him, Kirk Edwards, despite his early struggles in England, hasn't done too bad otherwise. An in form Sarwan would always have a place in my WI side though.
And I had posted a link in the first test debate thread about how Sarwan's confidence was seriously undermined by the team management, particularly the coach. May be his struggles could be attributed to that. Even the great Sachin Tendulkar had similar problems under the 'Guru Greg' era.

I like Bravo. Would make a great number six for England.

Didn't Sachin have elbow trouble in the 'Greg era' as well?

Stella wrote:I like Bravo. Would make a great number six for England.

Didn't Sachin have elbow trouble in the 'Greg era' as well?

Tendulkar had injury problems during the Greg Era, and rather than keeping his spirits up, the coach delt with those in a way that undermined his confidence. He had similar issues with players like Zaheer Khan as well.

During the Greg era, I was a critical supporter of many of the changes the coach brought about. It was only after the 2007 WC and in fact after he was forced to leave that more information became available in the public, and as Garry Kirsten became India's coach, the errors of Greg C, most of it is getting repeated in the West Indies became clear.

msp83 wrote:During the Greg era, I was a critical supporter of many of the changes the coach brought about. It was only after the 2007 WC and in fact after he was forced to leave that more information became available in the public, and as Garry Kirsten became India's coach, the errors of Greg C, most of it is getting repeated in the West Indies became clear.

I do often think that Greg was a scapegoat for the 2007 World Cup debacle though. In Tests India performed pretty well, and a lot of key players were introduced or came to prominence.

Pity about Gabriel. He looked quite sharp and quick at Lord's and might have done well at Trent Bridge. I don't think England are gonna be exactly quaking in their boots at the arrival of Best.
Having suffered such humiliation as a follower of England at Windies hands for so long - (like NO tests won for SIXTEEN YEARS) - I'm reasonably relaxed at seeing them struggle now.

Other than Suresh Raina, not many came through the Greg era, although he was championing the retirement or dropping of many of the senior players including Tendulkar and Ganguly.
Players like Zaheer Khan, Virender Sehwag, VVS Laxman, all had a rather frosty relation with the coach. And all of these players in fact publicaly acknowledge the contribution that Garry Kirsten made to them as players. They were treated with dignity, given due space, and they put in the hard yards. And of course the results were there for all to see.

If Ravi Rampaul is back to full fitness, Best may not even get a game.

Michael Holding, a sensible voice from West Indies cricketing fraternity has said the WICB and the team management have made players including Chris Gayle and Ramnaresh Sarwan feel unwanted and really do not want them to play for the side. He also said coach Mediocre Gibson is a failure when it comes to man management, and he is seriously intolerant as well. Terrible qualities for an international coach!.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/current/story/566042.html

Bowl a good line and length, have Roach as an out and out strike bowler, have Rampaul tie up one end to allow Edwards and Roach to have a burst.

Attacking fields when a wicket goes down. Few times in the first test a wicket went down with two slips and the next ball there were still only two slips.

Disciplined batting. Chanderpaul once again has led the way. They need to learn to enjoy playing a long innings and getting the big cores that win you games.

Big first innings scores, you don't tend to win too many, as they proved with the warm up game and the 1st test, unless you score big first time round.

First thing WI cricket need to do is to get their best XI on the park.
That would mean including the best opener that the region has produced in recent times, Christopher Henry Gayle, one of the better all-rounders to have emerged from the region in this century, Dwayne Bravo, one of the better bats of recent times Ramnaresh Sarwan in the 11.
2nd, they need all 11 players to make the side because of their ability to contribute with bat or ball, and they should be the 11 best available for each position.
That means they have to find a captain who makes the side as a quality batter, bowler or all-rounder and then also possess some sound leadership abilities.
4th, As every cricket team is consisted of different kind of people, the team management should be one that has fairly good man management abilities, the champion of mediocrity, the present coach Gibson therefore should be removed forthwith.
5th, and perhaps most important, Julian Hunt, Ernest Helaire and the rest of the WICB should be send packing and forced to turn away from cricket all together.
If this much is done, the journey from the low points could just get the start.
Then the available best players should find enough motivation, and they should be given all help in this regard by the team management so that things can slowly improve to the extend where they could think beyond fighting in a session or 2 as the most pleasing thing on a cricket field, although you get thrashed at the end of the day.
Then enough investment should be made in providing similar facilities like the high performance centre in T&T across the different islands so that players like Shannon Gabriel could be found and assisted in their climb to the highest level of playing cricket.

England cricketrs and supporters can thank their stars, as Mr Mediocre didn't become England bowling coach for long, otherwise players like Graeme Swann, champion players who has a strong sense of individuality wold have become history, and England would have lost their major strength, their bowling unit. The man is an egomaniac disaster.

msp83 wrote:First thing WI cricket need to do is to get their best XI on the park.
That would mean including the best opener that the region has produced in recent times, Christopher Henry Gayle, one of the better all-rounders to have emerged from the region in this century, Dwayne Bravo, one of the better bats of recent times Ramnaresh Sarwan in the 11.
2nd, they need all 11 players to make the side because of their ability to contribute with bat or ball, and they should be the 11 best available for each position.
That means they have to find a captain who makes the side as a quality batter, bowler or all-rounder and then also possess some sound leadership abilities.
4th, As every cricket team is consisted of different kind of people, the team management should be one that has fairly good man management abilities, the champion of mediocrity, the present coach Gibson therefore should be removed forthwith.
5th, and perhaps most important, Julian Hunt, Ernest Helaire and the rest of the WICB should be send packing and forced to turn away from cricket all together.
If this much is done, the journey from the low points could just get the start.
Then the available best players should find enough motivation, and they should be given all help in this regard by the team management so that things can slowly improve to the extend where they could think beyond fighting in a session or 2 as the most pleasing thing on a cricket field, although you get thrashed at the end of the day.
Then enough investment should be made in providing similar facilities like the high performance centre in T&T across the different islands so that players like Shannon Gabriel could be found and assisted in their climb to the highest level of playing cricket.