Irish squad for Baa Baas match

Ireland Squad (v Barbarians, Gloucester, May 29th):

Forwards (13):
Rory Best (Banbridge-Ulster)
Tom Court (Malone-Ulster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon-Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon-Ulster)*
Chris Henry (Belfast Harlequins-Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians-Connacht)*
John Muldoon (Galwegians-Connacht)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon-Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen-Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena-Ulster)
A.N.Other

Backs (11):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins-Ulster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster-Munster)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon-Ulster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballynahinch-Ulster)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen-Munster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Nevin Spence (Ballynahinch-Ulster)*
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena-Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena-Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution-Munster)*
A.N. Other

No Leinster players bewcause of Pro12 play off
* uncapped

As I mentioned earlier there's no full back in the squad so I'm guessing they're holding out for Dave Kearney otherwise Jones or Duffy will get called up?

I wonder who the other forward will be? Maybe Ruddock?

No O'Donnell? Would take him before Ruddock or Muldoon who is already on the list.

Is this on TV anywhere ?

I think it will be on Sky Sports, don't they have the right to all BaaBaas games in England?

I can't see Loughney making the starting team or Muldoon. Which (unless A.N. Other is an unused replacement for Leinster in the Final) means an all Ulster/Munster select XV.

I can't help but wonder who plans this; can you imagine what it would have looked like had Munster made it to the Pro12 Final?!

It's nice to see two uncapped props in the squad even if the two of them aren't going to be giving any All Blacks sleepless nights.

I would think this is the strongest team we could put out from that squad

1. Court
2. Best
3. Fitspatrick
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. Muldoon
7. Henry
8. POM

9. Murray
10. ROG
11. Trimble
12. Wallace
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Earls


I would hope that this is the last game ROG starts for Ireland.

Also does this mean that Kidney has finally given up with O'Leary??

Has kidney finally realised hes not up to it or is it just cause hes going abroad?

You think Muldoon will start ahead of Ferris?

How i forgot him i dont know.

Although if he is to play the three tests against NZ i might be tempted to leave him out of the Barbarians game

Yeah, me too to be honest Golden. Depends on his fitness. I'm actually tempted to say I hope Zebo and Gilroy both start. Head to head for the vacant wingers spot and it'll give Trimble a bit of a kick up the arse.

On the other hand, Trimble needs a game where he can get some confidence back into his game and get his hands on the ball and this could be perfect for him.

Notch wrote:Yeah, me too to be honest Golden. Depends on his fitness. I'm actually tempted to say I hope Zebo and Gilroy both start. Head to head for the vacant wingers spot and it'll give Trimble a bit of a kick up the arse.

On the other hand, Trimble needs a game where he can get some confidence back into his game and get his hands on the ball and this could be perfect for him.

Notch, he might need a confidence builder after saturday

My team would be (it ain't the best team but the best for this fixture)

Court
Sherry
Fitzpatrick
Ryan
Tuohy
Muldoon
Henry
POM
Murray
ROG
Gilroy
Wallace
Cave
Zebo
Earls

The thought of a ROG-Wallace combo is not going to strike fear into opponents, especially with ROG playing so deep it won't suit Wallace at all.

Hope Ryan and Tuohy get a go together.

Glad TOL is out

I've wondered if any of the other Ulster fans out there think Cave might be worth a look at 12? I only say this because I think he has the attributes to play there. I just wondered as perhaps a medium term alternative to Wallace and Darcy. Cave for me is the best 13 this season in Irish rugby, but just thinking slightly around the margins of the box since moving a 13 to 12 is hardly outside the box. Would a Cave-Earls axis be worth thinking about?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I've wondered if any of the other Ulster fans out there think Cave might be worth a look at 12? I only say this because I think he has the attributes to play there. I just wondered as perhaps a medium term alternative to Wallace and Darcy. Cave for me is the best 13 this season in Irish rugby, but just thinking slightly around the margins of the box since moving a 13 to 12 is hardly outside the box. Would a Cave-Earls axis be worth thinking about?

Cave only plays 13. In underage rugby, Earls was moved to 12 or 11 or fullback. (You'd have to feel for Earls the way he has been shifted around the place),

The lack of versatility is going to go against Cave internationally - he isn't going to start with BOD around, and too much messing has to go on to accommodate him on the bench. They will more than likely move Earls either side of him for the Ba-Baas game.

I agree with Sin on that one. Earls really is a victim of his own versatility feel bad for the guy.

Cave is an out and out 13. You could put Spence at 12 and while that isn't a great option it does have some merits

1) Cave and Spence have played together a lot
2) It gives ROG a strong defender and a crash ball option

It's time bod moved IMO. We have options at 13, be it cave or earls that we don't have at 12. For the good of the future team it is time to move him. ROG is the only 10 in he squad and it would be between Wallace and spence at 12. Picking the latter would mean anyone outside him would see little enough ball.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I've wondered if any of the other Ulster fans out there think Cave might be worth a look at 12? I only say this because I think he has the attributes to play there. I just wondered as perhaps a medium term alternative to Wallace and Darcy. Cave for me is the best 13 this season in Irish rugby, but just thinking slightly around the margins of the box since moving a 13 to 12 is hardly outside the box. Would a Cave-Earls axis be worth thinking about?

I'm all for it. I think Cave at 12 and Earls at 13 is potentially an excellent combination.

I know Cave is known as a 13 but I think realistically his lack of acceleration is going to always be his achilles heel at the top level. He has all the other attributes and a move to 12 could really help his international chances.

He reads the game far better than McFadden imo and has all the skills.

By contrast Earls isn't a great communicator or organiser and performs better with someone of that ilk beside him. For me in the shortterm that someone is BOD and longer term that's Cave.

What I'd like to see at Ulster is Cave to play 12, alongside Spence, when Wallace is out otherwise play 13. If that's a success then he should be considered there for Ireland too.

I wasn't 100% advocating it, just merely wondering what other people thought. At the risk of tempting fate this weekend I have never seen McFadden as being an international standard 12. I watched Cave put in some heroic defensive displays this season, none more so that losing my voice when he absolutely nailed the Edinburgh player (whoever it was) in the semi final. God love him, but his folded like a cheap deck chair. I agree with Rodders that his lack of acceleration might mean he will never really be quite there for an international 12, but I think he has the skills to be a 12. The point might be moot though if Kidney & co. finally see what everyone sees and moves BOD inside.

I agree that Cave has the skills for 12, but I would rather he stays at 13. He may not have the burst of pace of the likes of Earls, but his fantastic support play and ability to read the game means that is irrelevant. He reminds me a lot of how Conrad Smith plays. He would do well with a direct running 12 inside him, like McFadden. I also like the contrast between having Cave as a 13 and having Spence there for Ulster. Both have different qualities.

Also, Earls and Cave have played together for the Ireland As. Earls played at 12, with Cave at 13. I could find some clips if you want?

Munster fans - with Laulala likely to start at 13 next season, will Earls maybe get the chance to play 12 for Munster? If I am not mistaken, Earls played 12 when he was at school? Hence why he played there in his early career with Ireland A.

I've said before I'd love to see Cave play inside Earls or outside McFadden.

Maybe it wouldn't work but I'd love to see those combinations get a chance. They have mouthwatering potential given time.

Cave brings the brains and panache and McFadden/Earls bring the pace.

Cave won't get near 12 for ulster with Luke marshall an chris Farrell coming through and paddy playing less of a role with Ireland

It would be a foolish waste of resources to shift Cave to 12- maybe instead of putting round pegs in square holes we should try and develop some of those excellent 12s at Ulster, utilise their skills? Darren Cave will never be better at 12 than Paddy Wallace, who will never be a better 13 than him.

For me, Cave makes it at 13 or he doesn't. The guy is a specialist in an era of utility players with an identity crisis.

Notch, Stand

Obviously Wallace is the best 12 of the bunch here and IMO is the best 12 (BOD excluded) that Ireland have at their disposal.

The only moor point is that ROG and Wallace are a disasterous combination. I wouldn't move Cave in one to be honest as obviosuly neither Irish or Ulster coaches have considered it. At Ulster they moved another 13/winger in to 12 so they really must prefer Cave at 13.

Earls at 12???

I really wouldn't like it to be honest. Too like Zebo in that he see's opportunities for himself like few others (excellent skill to have) but doesn't see them for other players and at 12 that could mean the ball wouldn't move very far.

I think the best combo is ROG-Wallace-Cave but that is not a good combo.

Does anyone think Conway may get in as a fullback?

I have to say, Earls has improved a lot in terms of creating opportunities for others this season. Next season, with Laulala at 13, I am not really sure where he is going to fit in the Munster backline however. I would rather see him at 15 or on the bench honestly. For this game, I hope he gets a shot at 15, but it is very likely he will be the starting 13. Which would be very annoying.

My team for this game:

1) Court
2) Sherry
3) Fitzpatrick
4) Ryan
5) Tuohy
6) Muldoon
7) Henry
8) O'Mahony (c)
9) Murray
10) O'Gara
11) Gilroy
12) Wallace
13) Cave
14) Trimble
15) Earls

I think Trimble needs to start this game honestly.

1 Court
2 Best
3 Fitzpatrick
4 Touhy
5 Ryan
6 Ferris
7 Henry
8 O'Mahoney
9 Murray
10 Wallace
11 Zebo
12 Cave
13 Earls
14 Gilroy
15 A.N. Other

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, Earls has improved a lot in terms of creating opportunities for others this season. Next season, with Laulala at 13, I am not really sure where he is going to fit in the Munster backline however.

Rory Earls has said publically he doesn't want to play anywhere other than 13 and that he plans to tell Penney that.

I still amn't wild on Earls as a 13, I really just think he is unnatural there. Think his skill sets suit wing so much more but I've said them and no point going over already walked upon paths.

Of the Leinster players that could be selected by Kidney you'd have to say

the forwards spot is between: Hagan, Ruddock, Jennings
the backs spot is between: Kearney Jr, Conway, McFadden (outside chance)

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, Earls has improved a lot in terms of creating opportunities for others this season. Next season, with Laulala at 13, I am not really sure where he is going to fit in the Munster backline however.

Rory Earls has said publically he doesn't want to play anywhere other than 13 and that he plans to tell Penney that.

I know, but what he wants might not be the best option. Is Laulala going to play out of position/sit on the bench just because Earls refuses to play anywhere but 13? I realise he wants to settle in a position, but he is picking the wrong one to settle in.

rodders wrote:1 Court
2 Best
3 Fitzpatrick
4 Touhy
5 Ryan
6 Ferris
7 Henry
8 O'Mahoney
9 Murray
10 Wallace
11 Zebo
12 Cave
13 Earls
14 Gilroy
15 A.N. Other

I don't think Best or Ferris should play in that game rodders. I was going to put Best in my team and make him captain, but to be honest, I think both should be rested after the HEC final. Especially since they are apparently doubts for the NZ tour. As for the Cave at 12, Earls at 13 partnership, I have to say I am really not a fan. I hope that one never happens. Cave should stay at 13.

I'm not disagreeing Rory but they've been selected so if fit then they will play.

Just out of interest because I saw someone mentioned him earlier, what's happened to Rhys Ruddock? He got a few caps a while ago and was in and around the team right? Is he just struggling for game time at Leinster?

Ruddock hasn't really lived up to his potential shown early in his career. I think Dominic Ryan is a much more excited prospect.

Thanks Rory, shame to hear that. Big lad for his age and I thought he was going to really shine

From what I've seen of Ryan, he's very impressive

Rory_Gallagher wrote: As for the Cave at 12, Earls at 13 partnership, I have to say I am really not a fan. I hope that one never happens. Cave should stay at 13.

How can you not be a fan if you haven't seen it tried?

It's this mind set that holds us back so much in my opinion. No one wants to try anything different in case it doesn't work.

We've been playing with 2 outside centres for a decade FFS! Wales play with 2 inside centres!

I have seen Earls at 12 with Cave at 13, and it looked alright but at least Cave stayed in his position, and Earls played somewhere in the back line (I haven't a clue what his best position is at this point). I think moving players all over the place is what holds us back. If the two played together, it would have to be Earls at 12. Cave is a 13. I would hate to see his development ruined by moving him around. Cave is the best 13 in Ireland right now. Why not use him there?

bluestonevedder wrote:From what I've seen of Ryan, he's very impressive

Ruddock or Ryan?

EDIT:

Yeah, I really like Ryan. Not sure if he will ever play for Ireland though. There is a lot of talent at backrow.

Haha, nearing the end of the day Rory- mistakes are allowed!

Yeh the Ireland backrow's got some serious talent- should keep O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip on their toes. An extra spot has opened up too, with Wally's retirement.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Cave is the best 13 in Ireland right now. Why not use him there?

Cave is not the best 13 in Ireland, O'Driscoll is.

Prior to xmas Cave was the man in form but since then Earls has improved markedly, BOD has returned and Cave has had a disappointing finish to the season since his last injury.

O'Driscoll has played about 3 games rodders. I recall you saying that you think he looked a bit out of his depth and he looked his age. Is O'Driscoll really the best 13? Or is it because of his past achievements? Because I would say that is what REALLY holds back Ireland. Using our golden generation and past experiences as an indicator to whom our best players are. On form, Cave is the best 13 in Ireland. Not O'Driscoll.

Also, not sure how Cave has been disappointing in the slightest. Here, he seems to have earned the nickname "the flying wall" for a reason. Our attack has been pretty conservative, so he hasn't looked great in attack, but neither have most of our backline. Earls has been injured for a long time, and was fairly beaten by Cave. BOD has returned, and like I said, I remember you saying his return wasn't that encouraging.

I did...that was before he played against the Blues, us at Ravenhill and Clermont, where he was sensational in defence....had Rougerie in his pocket.

He's still the best by a distance on form and by every other measure.

Not sure how much more he has in the tank though.

I think Cave was poor against Edinburgh Rory... he butchered a certain try with and awful pass to Trimble.

As I said, our attack play has been pretty dire from all the Ulster backs really. Gilroy's moments of magic have been the only thing really. Cave put in some absolutely monstrous tackles though, making his mark defensively. Must have got a few tips from Spence.

Also, I want to see BOD start for Ireland at 12 for this tour. Would be the best option for sure.

Cave is quality Rory but he won't be wearing 13 on this tour if BOD and Earls are about. It won't happen so theres no point worring about it.

Hopefully he can put a marker down on Saturday against BOD though!

I agree with Rory in most of this I gotta say.

Also while I have only seen Earls and Cave a few times I'd still prefer not to see it again.

BOD at 12 has to happen soon