My Irish Six Nations Squad

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:48 am

With little over a month to go before the games get under way, Declan Kidney is in camp with some of the squad this week already reviewing the RWC and planning ahead to the six nations.

God willing he has decided on a method of attacking the opposition other than launching Ferris, SOB and Healy at the oppositions defence. There are a lot of things Ireland are good at (like defence, lineout, the breakdown) but we really need to become a modern team in regards to attack. We are still very set in our 2009 ways, with forwards being clumsy and not having the skills to play a high tempo game and the backs rarely breaking the line and not running enough dummy lines.

One would assume the squad will be named in the next 3 weeks or so, that in mind I felt I'd give the squad a bash myself and make a concious effort to do a few things:

a) do well in the competition
b) reward form
c) encourage attacking rugby
d) blood some players [be it as starting for the first time or being included in the squad for the first time}

Bold+underlined=starting player
Underlined=bench
Italic=part of 30 man squad
anything else=extended squad

Props:
Healy-Ross-Court-Buckley-McAllister-Hagan
Healy and Ross are the obvious starters and with only one prop spot on the bench makes sense to put Court there. Buckley in there to cover TH. McAllister and Hagan have been doing ok this season and are young fellas we need to expose to this level of rugby and thus I'd want them in the training squad and then being released back to their provinces when/where possible.

Hookers:
Best-Cronin-Varley-Sherry
This is the logical choice as there is quite a gap in class between each of these players save Varley-Sherry but Sherry has been injured for some time.

Locks:
O'Connell-Ryan-O'Callaghan-Toner-Cullen-Tuohy
I think that Ryan has now surpassed O'Callaghan and should be considered a starter in the Irish team. I think Cullen has played very poorly since he returned from the RWC and that Toner has played very well and thus I would reward form and keep Toner in the 30 man squad.

Backrow:
Ferris-O'Brien-Heaslip-O'Mahoney-Jennings-McLaughlin-Ronan
I would continue with our RWC starting backrow as SOB seems to have been developing into a 7 more over the past 2 months or so. I would bring in Peter O'Mahoney as he has been playing better than most around him regardless of experience he also covers the entire backrow.

Scrumhalves:
Murray-Reddan-Boss-Marshall
I'd continue with the order of our RWC 9's however I think the gap between Boss and Reddan has closed considerably. Marshall beat TOL to the extended squad as I believe Marshall has been on fire and that TOL is a good athlete but a poor scrumhalf.

Flyhalves:
Sexton-O'Gara-Madigan-Keatley
I went for Sexton over O'Gara due to Sexton's better form as of late and also due to his attacking talent. I went for Madigan over keatley as Keatley is blowing hot and cold as of late and Madigan is in unbelievable form with ball in hand.

Centres:
McFadden-Darcy-Cave-O'Malley
I went for McFadden to start ahead of Darcy for a number of reasons but mainly due to how ineffective Darcy is in attack now, he can't break the gainline, rarely makes huge barging runs, his decision making is too slow and often poor. I'd play McFadden at 12 and Bowe at 13 due to his fantastic lines of running, physicality, support play and offloading and his ability to break the line while still being defensively solid and able to distribute. Earls I feel is an out and out winger, lacks the vision and distribution to be a centre, just my opinion though.

Back 3:
Kearney-Earls-Trimble-Bowe-Fitzgerald-Carr
Bowe is in as a winger but will play 13. Kearney at 15 with earls or Fitzgerald covering in Jones' absence. Fitzgerald gets 11 as he has been in very good form since the RWC. Trimble in also as Earls is not starting on the wing currently and Trimble is also playing very well at the moment IMO. Carr to be an extended squad player if his injury isn't too bad.

There ya have it:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-O'Connell
Ferris-Heaslip-O'Brien
Murray-Sexton
McFadden-Bowe
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Trimble

Court-Cronin-O'Callaghan-O'Mahony-Reddan-O'Gara-Earls

I believe that team has a bit more attacking guile and creativity than it did in the RWC (excluding BOD of course). I think if the coaches can coach this team to attack and certain players play almost 'off the ball' this could be quite a slick and skillful team.

Dummy runners are crucial.
Backs running from depth at speed are crucial.
Forwards and backs attacking as one is crucial.
Our rock solid lineout and defence are crucial as is continuing our good work at the breakdown.

We need to blood some players more also, I'd like to see Cronin, Toner, O'Mahoney, Madigan and O'Malley getting some game time even if it is just 20 minutes against Italy or Scotland.

What do others think?
Is this the right squad?
Should Ryan be ahead of O'Callaghan?
Does Toner warrant Cullen's exclusion?
Does POM have what it takes to step up?
Does Marshall's good form warrant leaving TOL out?
Who would you pick Madigan or Keatley?
Does Darcy offer anything anymore worth keeping?
Who is the right call at 13?

by Rava Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:50 am

I'd say you won't be far off the mark Pete except I don't think Bowe will play at 13. It's more likely that Darcy will start at 12 with either Earls or McFadden at 13.

I see POC has been named as captain for the 6N. Good decision and good to see the announcement made early.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25259.php

by brennomac Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:53 am

Pete to the questions you posed

Should Ryan be ahead of O'Callaghan? - Yes absolutely, he's been far better than DOC this season - DOC a shadow of what he was but hope that cvhanges

Does Toner warrant Cullen's exclusion? - Yes absolutely, Toner is raw and still learning but he's come on in leaps and bounds and now offers more than just a a giant target to aim for in the line outs. Cullen has been sh1te this season and his discipline has gone to hell - is it three sinbins in Leinster's last 3 games - not good enough

Does POM have what it takes to step up? Only seen him this season but he looks good enough and unless Heaslip gets his game in to gear and gets back to where he was a year ago we could be looking at new back row formation before the end of the season

Does Marshall's good form warrant leaving TOL out? Again, sad to say yes, TOL's physical game does not make up for his spped and passing shortcomings at SH

Who would you pick Madigan or Keatley? On this season's form has to be Madigan - not sure about his kicking game but he can get the line moving well and scores tries himself - still young and raw but looke like he has what it takes to step up. Hopefully, when Berquist comes back from injury for Leinster, Madigan will stay as the no. 2 out half to Sexton

Does Darcy offer anything anymore worth keeping? No, he's had enough chances and it's time to blood some new 12's - McFadden

Who is the right call at 13? With BOD out, not blessed for choice but O'Malley looks like the best of the them - but he's going to have to learn how to tackle quickly - his "tackle" on Donald for Bath's first try in the recent Leinster-_Bath HC game was an awful effort - too high

I know it's been commented on to death, but the lack of a passing game is going to be our big problem. What is the issue about bringing in Joe Schmidt to work on the back line and try and produce the sort of back play he's able to get out of many of the same players at Leinster - after all if Feek can double as Leinster and Ireland scrum coach why can't Schmidt.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:59 am

Rava wrote:I'd say you won't be far off the mark Pete except I don't think Bowe will play at 13. It's more likely that Darcy will start at 12 with either Earls or McFadden at 13.

I see POC has been named as captain for the 6N. Good decision and good to see the announcement made early.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25259.php

Yeah I agree big time re: POC. Obvious and right decision IMO.

I would agree with you I can see DK doing that too but honestly which would strike more fear into an opponent?

Darcy-Earls
or
McFadden-Bowe

If you look at their attacking games you'd have to say the bottom two there are better attacking from centre than the top two.
Earls is a great strike runner without doubt but needs space and he won't get that at 13 against good teams.

I agree that we will likely see Darcy-Earls

Would you agree with leaving out Cullen and including POM?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:05 pm

brennomac wrote:Pete to the questions you posed

Should Ryan be ahead of O'Callaghan? - Yes absolutely, he's been far better than DOC this season - DOC a shadow of what he was but hope that cvhanges

Does Toner warrant Cullen's exclusion? - Yes absolutely, Toner is raw and still learning but he's come on in leaps and bounds and now offers more than just a a giant target to aim for in the line outs. Cullen has been sh1te this season and his discipline has gone to hell - is it three sinbins in Leinster's last 3 games - not good enough

Does POM have what it takes to step up? Only seen him this season but he looks good enough and unless Heaslip gets his game in to gear and gets back to where he was a year ago we could be looking at new back row formation before the end of the season

Does Marshall's good form warrant leaving TOL out? Again, sad to say yes, TOL's physical game does not make up for his spped and passing shortcomings at SH

Who would you pick Madigan or Keatley? On this season's form has to be Madigan - not sure about his kicking game but he can get the line moving well and scores tries himself - still young and raw but looke like he has what it takes to step up. Hopefully, when Berquist comes back from injury for Leinster, Madigan will stay as the no. 2 out half to Sexton

Does Darcy offer anything anymore worth keeping? No, he's had enough chances and it's time to blood some new 12's - McFadden

Who is the right call at 13? With BOD out, not blessed for choice but O'Malley looks like the best of the them - but he's going to have to learn how to tackle quickly - his "tackle" on Donald for Bath's first try in the recent Leinster-_Bath HC game was an awful effort - too high

I know it's been commented on to death, but the lack of a passing game is going to be our big problem. What is the issue about bringing in Joe Schmidt to work on the back line and try and produce the sort of back play he's able to get out of many of the same players at Leinster - after all if Feek can double as Leinster and Ireland scrum coach why can't Schmidt.

Obviously I agree with all your points so far save for maybe the O'Malley one. I think he should get some game time but realistically he is not ready to take on England, France, Wales maybe not even Scotland yet. I think Bowe is the next best option personally.

re: Schmidt.
Think it may be harder for a headcoach to divide his time in that way. I think he'd be brilliant tbh and would solve our most pressing problem in time.

by Rava Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:09 pm

Pete, I agree on leaving out Cullen. I don't think he offers anything exceptional and is a liability with his recent disciplinary record.

Kidney will be conservative though and as has been said by others since the WC there will only be one or two new faces.

I notice you haven't considered Paddy Wallace in your squad at all. I would remind you of the extension to his IRFU contract so it would make sense that he would be in at least the extended squad.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:17 pm

I figured he was injured and has been for a while. When does he return to action?
If he is in the squad then we will see McFadden as a 13 but when was the last time Paddy had a good run of games?

Ps: I'm actually a Paddy fan, I think he is a much better player than Darcy.

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:20 pm

Les Kiss is taking over the backs coaching for the 6ns. I think he might be good.

Pete - you'd have Bowe in the centre (despite not having played there since the Ospreys loss to Munster in the Magners playoffs), yet you drop Earls from the wing because he hasn't been playing there!

Moving Bowe to the centre, and dropping Earls means you are neutralising/dropping Ireland's 2 best finishers - not a good plan particularly when missing Brian O'Driscoll, another good finisher.

As for Madigan - looks to me to be the real deal. A bit soon for him though, poarticularly with BOD mssing. Maybe the Wolfhounds.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:28 pm

I think it's more about who I feel is the more natural 13. I don't think we have a real standout canditate to take over the 13 jersey (for instance Bowe hasn't played 13 for a while) but I believe Bowe could do the best job due to his skill set and what his strengths are.

I believe earls would be best placed on the wing but firstly he isn't playing there and secondly Fitzgerald and trimble are both in very good form as such.

That's just my thinking on it though I guess.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:52 pm

It'll be interesting to see who he picks in the backs. I want Murray and Sexton at 9 and 10. I'd prefer McFadden or Wallace to D'arcy at 12. And I'd like Bowe at 13 and Trimble at 14. Either Fitzgerald or Earls should be at 11 with the other as utility bench cover. I preferred Jones to Kearney before he was injured. But Kearney has the 15 jersey now and is playing well for Leinster. Is Jones back playing yet? I actually think he'd be the better player, if he could just stay injury free.

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 12:54 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it's more about who I feel is the more natural 13. I don't think we have a real standout canditate to take over the 13 jersey (for instance Bowe hasn't played 13 for a while) but I believe Bowe could do the best job due to his skill set and what his strengths are.

I believe earls would be best placed on the wing but firstly he isn't playing there and secondly Fitzgerald and trimble are both in very good form as such.

That's just my thinking on it though I guess.

I suggest you watch Bowe playing in the centre first before you move him there internationally. A good starting point might be the Magners game against Munster - he did himself no favours that day. There is a reason why he mostly starts on the wing - he is a great winger.

Earls has been playing both positions when he has been fit. Why would you want to start a scratch centre partnership in one of the biggest games of the season (the opening 6Ns game against Wales, especially with BOD out)?

Your glasses definately have an anti-red hue to them!

by Feckless Rogue Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:03 pm

Your glasses definately have an anti-red hue to them!

Sin é, it's not an anti-Munster conspiracy whenever someone prefers a non-Munster player in a particular position. He actually spelled out the logic for his choice very clearly. So how can you just call him "anti-red"?

by **Notch** Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:20 pm

I would see the main battles for possession of a shirt (and much more importantly the main endlessly annoying inter-provincial arguments we'll be having) being;

Donncha O'Callaghan vs Donnacha Ryan at 4. This one will be fun because they are both Munster players so the bias card will be that much harder to play. First Red Army Ligind to suggest moving Ryan to the backrow wins 1000 points for Gryffindor.

Conor Murray vs Eoin Reddan at 9. The youngster has the full set; even if he is a diamond in the rough and sloppy at times, he's inspired at others and has the potential to be our best 9 in a while. However Reddan does have the benefit of experience and always manages to inject more pace into the game. These are all important points that will be lost in the ensuing Leinster vs Munster internets fight.

Paddy Wallace vs Fergus McFadden at 12. Gordon D'Arcy is cold product and Wallace has just signed an extension on his central contract so... it seems obvious right? Unless you're so over-focused on the Leinster hype machine that you just can't see the skilful septuagenarian has everything needed to revitalise this backline. McFadden bring youth, verve and skill to the party. The argument over a player who looks good in highlights reels and a player who makes all the other players look good all the time will descend into farce and irrelevance as we slowly realise the inevitability of the refusal of the coaches to even consider anything but a D'Arcy-Earls midfield

At that point, drinks are on me. We'll get so drunk we don't feel feelings anymore.

Happy New Year!

by **Notch** Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:24 pm

Damn! First page of the first post about the Six Nations and the words "anti-Munster conspiracy" have already been used! I was going to run a sweepstake Cry

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:32 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Your glasses definately have an anti-red hue to them!

Sin é, it's not an anti-Munster conspiracy whenever someone prefers a non-Munster player in a particular position. He actually spelled out the logic for his choice very clearly. So how can you just call him "anti-red"?

Well, you explain to me why anyone could reason (in the same sentence) that Bowe should play 13 (even though he has not played there since the last 3 games that the Os lost last season) and says that Earls should not play on the wing because he has not being playing on the wing?

by valjester Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:51 pm

Notch wrote:I would see the main battles for possession of a shirt (and much more importantly the main endlessly annoying inter-provincial arguments we'll be having) being;

Donncha O'Callaghan vs Donnacha Ryan at 4. This one will be fun because they are both Munster players so the bias card will be that much harder to play. First Red Army Ligind to suggest moving Ryan to the backrow wins 1000 points for Gryffindor.

Conor Murray vs Eoin Reddan at 9. The youngster has the full set; even if he is a diamond in the rough and sloppy at times, he's inspired at others and has the potential to be our best 9 in a while. However Reddan does have the benefit of experience and always manages to inject more pace into the game. These are all important points that will be lost in the ensuing Leinster vs Munster internets fight.

Paddy Wallace vs Fergus McFadden at 12. Gordon D'Arcy is cold product and Wallace has just signed an extension on his central contract so... it seems obvious right? Unless you're so over-focused on the Leinster hype machine that you just can't see the skilful septuagenarian has everything needed to revitalise this backline. McFadden bring youth, verve and skill to the party. The argument over a player who looks good in highlights reels and a player who makes all the other players look good all the time will descend into farce and irrelevance as we slowly realise the inevitability of the refusal of the coaches to even consider anything but a D'Arcy-Earls midfield

At that point, drinks are on me. We'll get so drunk we don't feel feelings anymore.

Happy New Year!

In each case we really should be going for the younger option. Especially at 9, if Sexton and Murray can form a partnership they could have four or five years together playing for Ireland. The major problem would/will be that the way Leinster, and hopefully Ireland, play is different to the way Munster play. I think that Murray's major problem of being caught up in rucks is a problem that won't be as big with Ireland. At Munster it seems to happen a lot due to Varley's stupidity in taking the ball on on his own without the rest of the pack knowing what hes doing. Although Varley makes a lot of ground he is always either isolated, giving away a penalty or Murray is the first one in protecting the ball meaning he is stuck at the bottom of the ruck and someone else has to play scrumhalf. He needs to learn to boss his forwards more but I think this will be less of a problem with Ireland and his potential is such that you have to back him.

On the second rows, I would start Ryan and have Tuohy on the bench. The reason I would have Tuohy on the bench is that I think he offers more of an impact that Toner and that the most likely change to happen is Tuohy on for Ryan. If Toner was on the bench he would only ever be needed if POC got injured and would be much more likely to just pick up the 10seconds caps Cullen was getting last year.

Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Ryan, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton (with a bench of Croinin, Court, Tuohy, POM, Reddan, Rog) picks it self with the bolded being slightly contentious.

Its the outside back where the trouble is. 12 was a major problem during the WC. Our best finishers are Bowe and Earls but they have been playing poorly and injured respectively for most of the season. BOD is injured, Paddy has been injured and Darcy is gone at international level. I think that Eoin Griffen has probably been the most impressive Irish 13 this year but he hasn't been included in the Irish training squad this week so is unlikely to be involved.

During the world cup with saw that Earls is Kidney's second choice 13 and with him playing there for Munster he is likely to play there. I don't think Bowe or McFadden are the answer to the problem but it will be interesting to see if Kidney does something different.

I would love to see something like 15 Kearney 11 Trimble 12 Fitzgerald 13 Bowe/Earls 14 Bowe/Earls as it would be a mixture of players in form and our best finishers. It would also give us a bit of height in the backs as besides Earls all the others are over 6 ft. McFadden would take the bench spot obviously.

I would like to think that the coaches would give youth a chance but there is a really good chance of winning a championship this year. Wales are good but most of the other teams are in the process of rebuilding so I'd like us to play our best team and go for it.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 30 Dec 2011, 1:56 pm

I think it's more about who I feel is the more natural 13. I don't think we have a real standout canditate to take over the 13 jersey (for instance Bowe hasn't played 13 for a while) but I believe Bowe could do the best job due to his skill set and what his strengths are.

by debaters1 Fri 30 Dec 2011, 2:29 pm

Ok, now personally I'd go for POM but the fact that noone has suggested Leamy even be in the extended squad is unusual as he has been exceptional for Munster as an impact sub, and noone can or should doubt that this season. Case in point, Munster v Northampton, he carried in 7 of the 41 phases they wnet through (and made ground more than most) and delivered the pass to ROG for the drop goal. A week later in Castres he was again an impact off the bench this time as injury cover.

If POM is fit though, i'd have him on the bench. One thing though, is Wallace definately boned for the 6N. I have seen he is back doing some training and a player of his class & experience and pre injury form shoul'd just be farked out with yesterday's paper.

But I accept youth is the future for both the RWC 2015 and the inter RWC years.

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 2:34 pm

[quote="Feckless Rogue"]

I think it's more about who I feel is the more natural 13. I don't think we have a real standout canditate to take over the 13 jersey (for instance Bowe hasn't played 13 for a while) but I believe Bowe could do the best job due to his skill set and what his strengths are.

Read Peat's opening post:

Trimble in also as Earls is not starting on the wing currently and Trimble is also playing very well at the moment IMO.

Peat's logic:

Bowe should play 13 (based on his skill set) not on actually having seen him play in that position. He has not played there since the Magners play-offs (and before that, Os loss to Munster in the Liberty). He might have also seen him play there once in the HC (Os loss to London Irish).

Earls should be dropped for Trimble on the wing because his last game for Munster was in the centre and not on the wing.

By the way, Trimble nearly always plays well, he just isn't as good a finisher as BOD, Bowe or Earls. Same applies to Luke & Kearney.

If you insist on moving Bowe to the centre, you better have at least one tryscorer starting in the outside backs!

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 2:44 pm

valjester wrote:I think that Eoin Griffen has probably been the most impressive Irish 13 this year but he hasn't been included in the Irish training squad this week so is unlikely to be involved.

Only those who were at the world cup and who are not injured are in this camp. BOD & Luke are not at it for instance from Leinster, and Leamy & Tomas O'Leary have been excluded from Munster.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 3:15 pm

Sin-
My logic is at 13 we have no ideal candidates.
Earls plays there but I believe Bowe is far better see lions test for instance the fact I believe Bowe is better is the reason I chose him.
Wing we have 3 good option, 3 great options really. Fitz and Trimble are playing very well and earls is playing 13 ok (IMO) therefore I chose Trimble and Fitz.

The two positions were chosen seperatley.

We need to end anti provincial stuff here though be it accusations or sniping in general. Let's all just leave it out?

Back to it...
What's the situation with the two wallaces? I'd have both in my squad to be honest if possible!
I prefer pom to leamy and I think jennings is needed to cover 7 completely. Think leamy would probably be ahead of McLaughlin and ruddock though.

What do people think of the Marshall/madigan selections?

Not sure I'd put in tuohy he has been flaky this season IMO.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 3:17 pm

Also sin, please don't tell me and others what games I may or may not have seen and my logic was clearly written above without you needing to give your (misinterpreted) take on it.

by **Notch** Fri 30 Dec 2011, 3:24 pm

3 hours 46 minutes it took this year. It seems like it gets faster with every Six Nations!

by Golden Fri 30 Dec 2011, 3:40 pm

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"
Scrumhalves:
Murray-Reddan-Boss-Marshall
I'd continue with the order of our RWC 9's however I think the gap between Boss and Reddan has closed considerably. Marshall beat TOL to the extended squad as I believe Marshall has been on fire and that TOL is a good athlete but a poor scrumhalf.

[/quote]

God forbid if were stuck with either but Id have O' Leary ahead of Marshall. Marshalls done well in the last few weeks but if he had to line out for Ireland I would be worried. I know your talking about fourth choice so they shouldnt be having much of an impact.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 3:55 pm

Notch wrote:3 hours 46 minutes it took this year. It seems like it gets faster with every Six Nations!

It's quite frustrating eh?

Yeah I had Marshall in there thinking he wouldn't really play and he'd gain a lot from it. I think in a way it would be good for him to be exposed early and his fiery energy would be good too

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 4:09 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-
My logic is at 13 we have no ideal candidates.
Earls plays there but I believe Bowe is far better see lions test for instance the fact I believe Bowe is better is the reason I chose him.
Wing we have 3 good option, 3 great options really. Fitz and Trimble are playing very well and earls is playing 13 ok (IMO) therefore I chose Trimble and Fitz.

The two positions were chosen seperatley.

We need to end anti provincial stuff here though be it accusations or sniping in general. Let's all just leave it out?

Back to it...
What's the situation with the two wallaces? I'd have both in my squad to be honest if possible!
I prefer pom to leamy and I think jennings is needed to cover 7 completely. Think leamy would probably be ahead of McLaughlin and ruddock though.

What do people think of the Marshall/madigan selections?

Not sure I'd put in tuohy he has been flaky this season IMO.

Pete, maybe you could lower your standards a bit - I take it you think the ideal replacement would be BODv.2.

You want to start Tommy Bowe in the centre based on a game that the Saffers decided to blood a few new players nearly 3 years ago? Even Stephen Sykes made the Saffers squad that day.

Even you must have noticed that Earls played in the centre for Munster in the Heineken Cup (and though slightly injured coming into the 6Ns) he played on the wing ahead of Trimble. Seemingly its not a major change from playing from 13 to 11 position wise and visa versa. A bit more difficult than 14 to 13.

The two positions were chosen seperatley.

Yet, different logic applied to both positions.

Earls dropped from 11 because he was playing 13. It is not a negative that Bowe has never played international rugby for Ireland at 13. At least Earls has played both 11 & 13 in the last couple of months.

My starting team for 6Ns against Wales.

Healy (if he is fit), Best, Ross
POC Ryan
Ferris/Ronan/SOB
Murray/Sexton
Trimble Earls Luke Bowe
Kearney
Subs: Court, Cronin, Tuohy, Heaslip, ROG, O'Leary, McFadden

Only contentious picks are Ronan (the last backrow did not work against Wales) - Ronan is playing exceptionally well for Munster and he is also a lineout option. Easy whether SOB or Heaslip start. Tuohy because he can be a good impact sub.
Luke in the centre because he is playing very well at the moment and is a big strong defender.
With Philipps as the Welsh SH, you need a good, strong defender like O'Leary to come on.

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 4:14 pm

Notch wrote:3 hours 46 minutes it took this year. It seems like it gets faster with every Six Nations!

How many posts now have you and Pete made on the subject?

I must set up a book to see how quickly you get a post in to condemn the sinners laughing

by Feckless Rogue Fri 30 Dec 2011, 4:46 pm

The back row of Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien was fine at the World Cup. They weren't dominated by the Welsh back rowers at all. We had enough territory and possession to beat Wales. It was the rubbish game plan that cost us.

by valjester Fri 30 Dec 2011, 5:03 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-
My logic is at 13 we have no ideal candidates.
Earls plays there but I believe Bowe is far better see lions test for instance the fact I believe Bowe is better is the reason I chose him.
Wing we have 3 good option, 3 great options really. Fitz and Trimble are playing very well and earls is playing 13 ok (IMO) therefore I chose Trimble and Fitz.

The two positions were chosen seperatley.

We need to end anti provincial stuff here though be it accusations or sniping in general. Let's all just leave it out?

Back to it...
What's the situation with the two wallaces? I'd have both in my squad to be honest if possible!
I prefer pom to leamy and I think jennings is needed to cover 7 completely. Think leamy would probably be ahead of McLaughlin and ruddock though.

What do people think of the Marshall/madigan selections?

Not sure I'd put in tuohy he has been flaky this season IMO.

Paddy is back sometime next month and Wally is back in February. Wally is definitely out of reckoning for the Six Nations and Paddy will be lucky to be back.

On talent, form and potential I think that POM is well ahead for the back row sub spot but it depends on how he comes back from injury. Leamy, Jennings and McLaughlin are all at a similar level, although leamy is injured, and Ruddock is slightly behind them.

I don't like Marshall, all though he has played well this season. He is behind too many players to be involved in anything more than training squads. I would say that kidney rates Keatley ahead of Madigan but neither are likely to do much more than hold tackle bags during the training squads.

Tuohy wasn't great at the start of the season but he was superb during the hec games. I don't really rate Toner to be honest but he has been excellent for Leinster I just think that Tuohy is a better impact player.

Earls will more than likely start at 13 if he stays there for Munster, I know that Bowe has played there for the Lions but he has been very unimpressive when playing there for the Ospreys. Bowe's form has been poor throughout the year for the Ospreys and has struggled with injury. Griffen is probably the best option but it would be a big ask to chuck him in alongside an inexperienced 12.

I still think the best outside back combination is a variation of kearney trimble earls fitz bowe.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 5:59 pm

Alright sin you have your opinions and I have mine personally I feel you have misinterpreted/don't understand my reasons for selecting the players I have selected in various positions. I'm just gonna draw a line there and leave it.

Don't see why Ronan should be there he's an average hcup player IMO and pom is considerably better. Jennings is better than him too.

I think Bowe has got more out and out traits of a 13 val. He is a very good strike runner and is capable of beating guys 1 on 1. He is excellent at picking lines and looking for offloads. He is a good defender physically and mentally.

I can see keatley being preferred by kidney too but I think madigan is the greater talent significantly.

Would love if p Wallace was back Darcy is past it and don't fully trust McFadden yet.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 6:00 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:The back row of Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien was fine at the World Cup. They weren't dominated by the Welsh back rowers at all. We had enough territory and possession to beat Wales. It was the rubbish game plan that cost us.

+1

Would also say it was a very limited game plan

by gowales Fri 30 Dec 2011, 6:15 pm

Has McFadden really been in good form? I mean he's fairly solid and kick goals. There seems to be so much hype surrounding him but i can't see how it warrants it to be honest.
I agree that D'Arcy has been ineffective in attack, hes also been ineffective in defence!

It's a real conundrum isn't it the Irish 12 shirt. The only real standout player to me is Downey at Northampton but there's no way he'll be selected. Looking through the provinces there aren't a lot of established 12's playing. You'll probably see a player moving out of position into 12. It will probably be Fitzgerald, Trimble or D'arcy and possibly McFadden

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 30 Dec 2011, 6:25 pm

Of all our selection debates/problems, I think it is very clear that the combination of Ferris, SOB, and Heaslip, will and should start for Ireland. That one doesn't need debated, especially since Heaslip is showing form again.

The main positions we need to fix are the centres. Our main backbone in terms of talented backs includes: Kearney, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Earls, Trimble, Sexton and Murray (and Jones when he returns). These are the best backs we have, however none of them are "natural" centres. I think one of them should play 13 during this 6 nations, my vote being Fitz. McFadden/D'Arcy fighting for the 12 spot.

Also have to agree about Griffin looking impressive. He needs more time to prove himself however. He, Spence, Marshall and Hanrahan are the 4 players I see playing a part as future Irish centres.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 30 Dec 2011, 6:27 pm

gowales wrote:Has McFadden really been in good form? I mean he's fairly solid and kick goals. There seems to be so much hype surrounding him but i can't see how it warrants it to be honest.
I agree that D'Arcy has been ineffective in attack, hes also been ineffective in defence!

It's a real conundrum isn't it the Irish 12 shirt. The only real standout player to me is Downey at Northampton but there's no way he'll be selected. Looking through the provinces there aren't a lot of established 12's playing. You'll probably see a player moving out of position into 12. It will probably be Fitzgerald, Trimble or D'arcy and possibly McFadden

Lack of options I think is the reason for McFadden. He is a fantastic kicker, and is very solid. However, what we really want is a creative 12 who can spark some life into our back-line. Apart from Wallace who has been injured, we haven't really any options for that just yet. Marshall and Hanrahan are 2 young players who look like they might offer that at 12, but they have a long way to go.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 7:29 pm

I have to admit that I am a McFadden fan I think he could be quite good however it is Marshall who I think should be the Irish 12 come 2015 I can see him being world class and is the creative 12 we need to go with someone like spence or another big runner at 13.

I have a lot of hope resting in marshall

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 9:50 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:The back row of Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien was fine at the World Cup. They weren't dominated by the Welsh back rowers at all. We had enough territory and possession to beat Wales. It was the rubbish game plan that cost us.

12 passes & zero offloads says differently considering that Lydiate made 24 tackles. The Welsh backrow made a total of 55 tackles between them.

Not one offload coming from the Irish backrow!

Not to mention BOD getting turned over 4 times and Heaslip twice. To put in perspective, O'Gara got turned over once.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:08 pm

It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

by valjester Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:17 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I have to admit that I am a McFadden fan I think he could be quite good however it is Marshall who I think should be the Irish 12 come 2015 I can see him being world class and is the creative 12 we need to go with someone like spence or another big runner at 13.

I have a lot of hope resting in marshall

The thing with Marshall is that I think he would combine very well with a player like earls. He is solid defensively, always looks for the half break but keeps his hands free for the offload which would suit a player like earls being allowed to run into space. On Bowe, I probably would have agreed with you after the Lions match but since then he hasn't worked as well. Griffen looks like the best long term option at 13, he has been class in the hec and I can't wait to see him in the flesh when Connacht come to Toulouse.

I think that hanrahan has being playing a lot at 10 this year in the AIL and going very well there, his goal kicking is very good and he has performed well for Munster A and is still only 19 i think.

I don't really rate McFadden and I don't think he is the solution to our problems.

On the reason why we lost to Wales, our major problem was that our 10-12-13 combination had a disaster of a day, less bod than the other 2. There was no penetration in the Irish midfield and the Welsh backs made a tonne of ground by targetting rog and darcy. Sob and Ferris were still making ground but they weren't making as much as normal and the Irish clearout tended to be slow, giving the welsh a chance to keep there defensive line intact.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:30 pm

What about the likes of Toner, POM, Marshall, Madigan?
Are they worth including?

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:32 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

The point was made that Ireland had all he possession (true), the problem was the backrow who had all the possession were unable to do anything with it. The Irish backrow made 39 runs and only manged to pass the ball 12 times and offloaded 0. Ronan is well able to offload.

I suppose you can't blame the irish backrow completely - but D'Arcy & BOD were hammered in the centre by Roberts. BOD got turned over 4 times.

by valjester Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:37 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:What about the likes of Toner, POM, Marshall, Madigan?
Are they worth including?

In the training squad? Toner and POM definitely will be. Marshall and Madigan might be included but there are other options who are ahead of them.
I don't think Marshall will ever be consistent enough for Ireland. Madigan is a great prospect but in the long term I would rate Jackson and Hanrahan as better long term prospects. But Madigan should be involved as he will be involved for the next few years even though his lack of goal kicking could be a problem while playing for Ireland.

Toner is probably POC's back up but I wouldn't have him on the bench. POM should be on the bench.

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 10:58 pm

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]Alright sin you have your opinions and I have mine personally I feel you have misinterpreted/don't understand my reasons for selecting the players I have selected in various positions. I'm just gonna draw a line there and leave it.

Don't see why Ronan should be there he's an average hcup player IMO and pom is considerably better. Jennings is better than him too.

I think Bowe has got more out and out traits of a 13 val. He is a very good strike runner and is capable of beating guys 1 on 1. He is excellent at picking lines and looking for offloads. He is a good defender physically and mentally.

I can see keatley being preferred by kidney too but I think madigan is the greater talent significantly.

Would love if p Wallace was back Darcy is past it and don't fully trust McFadden yet.c[quote]

Both Jennings & ronan are average HC players - Jennings has had numerous chances and blown them. Ronan has been playing very well this season and worth a chance. Its not as if Jennings, SOB or Heislip have been showing a lot of form so far this season. Ferris, POM & Ronan have been the form backrows in the Heineken Cup this season.

Bowe has been off form for the last 12 months (injury in Dec '10 I think when playing for the Os). He was lucky to be ahead of Trimble for the world cup. His form for the Os hasn't really picked up again.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:04 pm

Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

The point was made that Ireland had all he possession (true), the problem was the backrow who had all the possession were unable to do anything with it. The Irish backrow made 39 runs and only manged to pass the ball 12 times and offloaded 0. Ronan is well able to offload.

I suppose you can't blame the irish backrow completely - but D'Arcy & BOD were hammered in the centre by Roberts. BOD got turned over 4 times.

Of course they were unable to do anything with it!!! Due to our 10-12 (mainly) the Welsh knew we had no other attacking options and thus could focus on our backrow. It takes more than just the ball carrier being able to pass for the backrow to actually pass. For instance Ferris may be in a position to pass but there may be no one to pass to or no one in a better position than he is.
I doubt that Ronan is able to offload better than any of the other 3 because he can't take contact anywhere near as well as the other 3.
Heaslip and SOB have been playing far better than Ronan and Ferris has been playing better than all of them

Darcy and BOD and ROG were all hammered by the Welsh midfield.

Not sure if I agree that Jackson will be better than Madigan, can see what people are saying about Griffin though

by Sin é Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:33 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

The point was made that Ireland had all he possession (true), the problem was the backrow who had all the possession were unable to do anything with it. The Irish backrow made 39 runs and only manged to pass the ball 12 times and offloaded 0. Ronan is well able to offload.

I suppose you can't blame the irish backrow completely - but D'Arcy & BOD were hammered in the centre by Roberts. BOD got turned over 4 times.

Of course they were unable to do anything with it!!! Due to our 10-12 (mainly) the Welsh knew we had no other attacking options and thus could focus on our backrow. It takes more than just the ball carrier being able to pass for the backrow to actually pass. For instance Ferris may be in a position to pass but there may be no one to pass to or no one in a better position than he is.
I doubt that Ronan is able to offload better than any of the other 3 because he can't take contact anywhere near as well as the other 3.
Heaslip and SOB have been playing far better than Ronan and Ferris has been playing better than all of them

Darcy and BOD and ROG were all hammered by the Welsh midfield.

Not sure if I agree that Jackson will be better than Madigan, can see what people are saying about Griffin though

Well, then all the fault lies with D'Arcy. Sexton came on at 50 mins with his favourite SH and he wasn't up to much either.

As for the backrow - they are all mobile - surely they could offload to one another if no one else was up in support?

SOB looks helpless without Jennings for Leinster and Jennings is just not international class. Ronan has been playing well for Munster - he is worth a punt for Ireland. It will be the unknown if nothing else against Wales.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Fri 30 Dec 2011, 11:54 pm

I disagree with all of this, apart from our backrow being mobile.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 31 Dec 2011, 12:09 am

Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

The point was made that Ireland had all he possession (true), the problem was the backrow who had all the possession were unable to do anything with it. The Irish backrow made 39 runs and only manged to pass the ball 12 times and offloaded 0. Ronan is well able to offload.

I suppose you can't blame the irish backrow completely - but D'Arcy & BOD were hammered in the centre by Roberts. BOD got turned over 4 times.

Of course they were unable to do anything with it!!! Due to our 10-12 (mainly) the Welsh knew we had no other attacking options and thus could focus on our backrow. It takes more than just the ball carrier being able to pass for the backrow to actually pass. For instance Ferris may be in a position to pass but there may be no one to pass to or no one in a better position than he is.
I doubt that Ronan is able to offload better than any of the other 3 because he can't take contact anywhere near as well as the other 3.
Heaslip and SOB have been playing far better than Ronan and Ferris has been playing better than all of them

Darcy and BOD and ROG were all hammered by the Welsh midfield.

Not sure if I agree that Jackson will be better than Madigan, can see what people are saying about Griffin though

Well, then all the fault lies with D'Arcy. Sexton came on at 50 mins with his favourite SH and he wasn't up to much either.

As for the backrow - they are all mobile - surely they could offload to one another if no one else was up in support?

SOB looks helpless without Jennings for Leinster and Jennings is just not international class. Ronan has been playing well for Munster - he is worth a punt for Ireland. It will be the unknown if nothing else against Wales.

Sorry Sin but that makes me know you haven't been watching SOB. When he played 7 against bath, he made 5 turnovers. That is a fantastic stat for any openside flanker. Jennings had no part to play in that game. For Ireland against the aussies, he played his best game for Ireland (IMO). At 7, with Ferris, no Jennings.

by Sin é Sat 31 Dec 2011, 12:24 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Sin é wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It takes more than just the person with the ball to create offloads no?

Our backrow is our strongest asset without a doubt in my opinion. Putting in Ronan to be sounds mental. The fact that our 10-12-13 offered nothing in attack and ROG couldn't cross kick to Bowe (who was up against North instead of Williams) meant the Welsh could see our backrow as our only threat and thus dealt with them accordingly.

Not our backrows fault they can't be expected to carry our offence.

The point was made that Ireland had all he possession (true), the problem was the backrow who had all the possession were unable to do anything with it. The Irish backrow made 39 runs and only manged to pass the ball 12 times and offloaded 0. Ronan is well able to offload.

I suppose you can't blame the irish backrow completely - but D'Arcy & BOD were hammered in the centre by Roberts. BOD got turned over 4 times.

Of course they were unable to do anything with it!!! Due to our 10-12 (mainly) the Welsh knew we had no other attacking options and thus could focus on our backrow. It takes more than just the ball carrier being able to pass for the backrow to actually pass. For instance Ferris may be in a position to pass but there may be no one to pass to or no one in a better position than he is.
I doubt that Ronan is able to offload better than any of the other 3 because he can't take contact anywhere near as well as the other 3.
Heaslip and SOB have been playing far better than Ronan and Ferris has been playing better than all of them

Darcy and BOD and ROG were all hammered by the Welsh midfield.

Not sure if I agree that Jackson will be better than Madigan, can see what people are saying about Griffin though

Well, then all the fault lies with D'Arcy. Sexton came on at 50 mins with his favourite SH and he wasn't up to much either.

As for the backrow - they are all mobile - surely they could offload to one another if no one else was up in support?

SOB looks helpless without Jennings for Leinster and Jennings is just not international class. Ronan has been playing well for Munster - he is worth a punt for Ireland. It will be the unknown if nothing else against Wales.

Sorry Sin but that makes me know you haven't been watching SOB. When he played 7 against bath, he made 5 turnovers. That is a fantastic stat for any openside flanker. Jennings had no part to play in that game. For Ireland against the aussies, he played his best game for Ireland (IMO). At 7, with Ferris, no Jennings.

Jennings came on at 50 minutes, so he had some part in it. He played 71 mins in the 2nd leg.

He had a great game against Australia, but was taken out by Warburton when playing Wales.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 31 Dec 2011, 12:28 am

I don't think that is what happened, and I don't think Warburton was that effective in the first half. SOB/Ferris were used as battering rams that game, which was so easy for Wales to defend against. They had two centres who are around 17 stone and over 6 foot, and a big backrow. Of course that wasn't going to work. In the second half, SOB/Ferris I think were probably tired out, they were our only game plan, and it didn't work.

Jennings may have come on eventually, but before that SOB was fantastic. I don't think those turnover stats shot up as soon as Jennings played. In fact, he probably had more chances to make those 5 turnovers at 7, as he could reach the breakdown faster.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Sat 31 Dec 2011, 9:13 am

I don't understand sin how you think losing that game was down to our backrow to me it shows a huge lack of understating re: offensive rugby.

The backrow were by far and away our best unit in that game vs Wales and waurburton didn't steal much ball off them. How many times were they turned over and how many of those times were due to a lack of momentum coming from the rest of the team or the defence recognising the single orientation if te attack and exerting more pressure on our backrow.

I think you need to rewatch this game and see just how poor our 10 and 12 were.

by Golden Sat 31 Dec 2011, 3:11 pm

Sin é wrote:

Both Jennings & ronan are average HC players - Jennings has had numerous chances and blown them. Ronan has been playing very well this season and worth a chance. Its not as if Jennings, SOB or Heislip have been showing a lot of form so far this season. Ferris, POM & Ronan have been the form backrows in the Heineken Cup this season.

Ronan is an average Pro 12 player. How you can say Jennings is an average HC player is beyond me. The man is completely at home at that level and is one of the best 7s in the competition. While he has never made the step up to international level, there is no way hes an average HC cup player

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