My Irish Squad for the Autumn

This is obviously hypothetical as it is well in advance and there is some rugby to be played and of course players will go in and out of form and of course some may get injured.

I'd like something of a revamp compared to what has been going on in the Irish team for the past 12 months or so. I am picking this squad to play fast, off the deck rugby and I would want the team to be coached as such and the tactics to reflect this. For that reason there could be some big name absentees.

Am leaving out some of the injured lot who may not make it back in time.

Please bare in mind this is the training squad and thus some are in who won't play albeit to make up numbers or for experience
LH's: Healy-Court-McAllister
TH's: Ross-Fitzpatrick-Hagan
Hk's: Best-Strauss-Cronin
Locks: POC-Ryan-Tuohy-Toner-DOC
Backrow: Ferris-Ryan-POM-Henry-Wilson-Heaslip
Scrumhalves: Reddan-Murray-Marshall
Flyhalves: Sexton-Madigan-Jackson
Centres: Downey-BOD-Cave-McFadden
Back 3: Bowe-Earls-Gilroy-Zebo-Kearney-Trimble

20 forwards and 16 backs

Not considered due to injury: SOB, Kearney Jr, Fitzgerald, Ruddock, Jones

Reasonings:

1) McAllister I think could be a great shout and has looked promising when he gets gametime, better than Wilkinson anyways. Hopefully McGrath can start making an impression at Leinster.
2) Strauss in as he is just a league above Sherry
3) Hagan I think has more talent than Loughney I think and would like to see Macklin more often.
4) DOC is in there really to make up the numbers to be honest, not sure if Nagle is ready may benefit from playing while others are away anyways. Toner deservedly in the squad ahead of McCarthy.
5) Ryan in instead of Jennings. Jennings hasn't performed at International level so going with youth. Wilson I believe could get in there but will be behind Heaslip.
6) I'd have the 9's in that order and if there was a 4th spot would take Stringer.
7) Not taking ROG due to the desire to play attacking rugby which I don't feel he can do right from the off. I think Madigan is much better at that and could be an excellent player for Ireland in the future. Excellent impact sub too. Jackson in as well as one for the future.
8 ) Downey in to try and fill the void in terms of size in the backs and bring physicality at 12. McFadden hopefully will have overtaken Darcy at 12 and all will be well with the world. Earls could be understudy to BOD but I don't think he is a 13 (he is a born winger) it could well be Cave but he needs to up it as do others like EOM, Spence etc.
9) I decided to include both Zebo and Gilroy and would ahve included Kearney Jr too if he wasn't injured ahead of Trimble.

My 22:

Healy-Best-Ross
Ryan-POC
Ferris-Heaslip-POM
Reddan-Sexton
Downey-BOD
Earls-Kearney-Bowe

Strauss-Fitzpatrick-Tuohy/Toner-Henry-Marshall-Madigan-Gilroy

I think that is a good attacking team who are mobile and yet abrasive. Downey and Bowe give the backs a target man. The locks in particular are really well balanced and the backrow looks tasty too.

The aim would be to play off quick ball and try and keep the tempo high, attacking before the defence has time to fully re-set. Use dummy runners and bring in the likes of Earls and Bowe into the line to create mismatches. Ferris, healy and POM would be the primary carriers in the pack and the entire backrow are more than capable lineout options. Scrummaging-wise I'd expect even more of an improvement due to POC in there but not sure I'd want him touching the ball much in terms of keeping the tempo up.

The bench would be used to increase the temp again with possibly Madigan or Sexton going in at 12 and Strauss injecting some pace as well. Tuohy/Toner would come on for POC in the last 15 all things going to plan.

What do people think?
Would you include/leave out someone?
Is that a good split?
Are there any other young guys who could be in there?
Can McFadden get ahead of Darcy?
Is Fitzpatrick worth a bench spot ahead of Court?
Would others bring ROG?
Is Ryan (the flanker) too green?
Is Nagle worth a shot?
Is there anywhere where we are weak?
Is Downey going to get a chance?

PLEASE DON'T LET THIS TURN INTO A NIQ DEBATE RE: STRAUSS.

Pete I think that its a bit much to make such a controversial statement as selecting Strauss and then asking we don't debate it.

Personally I feel very strongly about the Project Player scheme and think it would be a massive call for the IRFU to play him.

It would be probably the biggest selection in years for Ireland and has pros and cons.

Anyway I won;t say more about it on this topic. I promise.

Anyway my take on your training squad:

Front Row: No issues with prop. Lets just say I agree with 2/3 of your hookers.

Second Row: No issues.

Backrow: I don't think Wilson should be there. I don't think Ryan is needed/good enough. I think McLaughlin, O'Brien, Heaslip, O'Mahony, Ferris, Henry is a good backrow unit.

Scrumhalves: No Issue:

Flyhalves: No Issue

Centres: When I read your centres my first thought was "NO!" but maybe it could work. As I said for last few selections I dont mind once it isnt Darcy and O'Driscoll

Back Three: Ditch Trimble. Gilroy, Zebo and Bowe as recognised wingers. Earls as a utility man. I would say Luke Fitz or Felix Jones to take the last spot.

To your questions:

- Agree I would have Fitzpatrick over Court on the bench.
- I wouldnt take ROG
- We are weak at centre
- Nagle is injured and will just be back for November. He wont be fit.
- Ryan is nowhere near Leinster first team. Not good enough right now.
- I dont think Downey will get chance personally.

Sorry Stag, I understand what you are saying but I was hoping this wouldn't turn into a thread about the project player debate. Totally get that it is a big deal to a lot of people though and it is an intrinsic part of the selections I guess.

What is your view on Nagle? Could he make the squad do you reckon?

I'm not sure if McLaughlin is that good a shout, he did really well in the first test I thought and quite well in the second but fell off LOADSA tackles in the third. O'Brien looks like he may miss it also so that is why I included the other two?

Downey worth a shout now that he is back on the emerald isle? What did you find weird about my choices? is there a chance for Spence/EOM?

I think Luke and Felix will both still be injured as well.

Sorry just seen your reply there. Why don't you think Downey will get a shot, if he gets in to the Munster first team (I'd say he will with mafi gone) then he has a good shot no? Is Darcy really gonna hang on longer?

Sucks about Nagle

With Ruddock and SOB out and the internationals slowly making their way back I think Ryan could be seeing a fair bit of gametime

Luke will be out. He might not be back until as late as january

I don't rate Nagle. I think that he will be passed by by David Foley and David O'Callaghan at Munster. That one game against Australia was magnificant but I've seen the likes of Tim Ryan have a superb game playing against Tony Woodcock.

Spence was the player I was thinking of. I have a feeling we could see him included. I think Downey could do a very good job (maybe Roberts-BOD style centres from 2009 Lions) but I dont think he'll get his debut. Depends how he does for Munster.

Ryan might see gametime. My gut reaction is that people are calling for him to get in based on the stuff he did over a year ago. I thought that he didn't do nearly as well this season.

Yeah I see where you're coming from re: Ryan, he was injured a lot I suppose that is the only defence there is from last season. He is definitely going to get gametime at Leinster this season (injury withstanding) so as long as he takes those chances he could well be in the mix.

Is Spence going to be starting for Ulster with Paddy and Cave? I'd like to see more of Marshall and Spence tbh but with introducing a new 10 that could just be too much too soon. I think Downey could be a win tbh, he is what we have been looking for he just now has magically has become selectable because he has re-located!

The more and more I look at it, the more and more I worry about our centres come 2015 RWC.

Dom ryan didn't do as well this year because he was out injured for a number of months. Hopefully he will stay injury free this season and then he can show us how good he is.

Don't know about Downey, from what I hear he didn't have a very good season, Mclaughlin in instead of Wilson

depends how Wilson and Downey do at the start of the season.

Would like to see BoD at 12 and Cave at 13 to see how that goes.

If he performs between now and November I haven't any problems to see him play. Both Downey and Ryan.

Like you Pete I am very worried about our centres. The provinces need to play their part in development same as props.

Yeah Stag with you big time on both of those fronts.

I was looking at Connachts depth chart, Loughney who is played TH for us against the AB's for 20mins or so is 3rd choice TH at Connacht. That says so much about our depth there.

We really need guys like Archer, Macklin, McAllister, Fitzpatrick, Hagan and McGrath to kick on.
And Soon.
Healy is the only shining light right now.

Centres is massive right now. We have no one who fits the bill we need.

Cave to be doesn't look like he has "it". He didn't get much time in an Irish jersey but the BaaBaa's game and the 10mins against the AB's (from the little we saw) didn't look good at all for him. My hopes have dropped.

Spence and Marshall. I worry the RWC could come too soon for the pair of them. Perhaps Wallace will retire next season and Marshall can get two good seasons in with Ulster playing with jackson and Cave.

McFadden needs to play 12 and week after week. i actually think he could be good there, good enough at least to not be an issue until Marshall/Hanarahan come though. MUST get ahead of Darcy at Leinster and play consistently.

EOM needs to bulk up and manage to get gametime too. He is a great footballer and is a better defender than people say but how many games does he play? The answer, not enough.

Earls in my mind is not a centre. He could become an exceptional winger so I think he should stay there.

Downey has the potential to be our go to man at 12 for a season or two but can he perform well enough or can someone else come in before the RWC?

About to run out of this stoopid quota time stuff in work! Goddammit!

Will catch up when i get home

For me 17 forwards and 14 backs;

1) Cian Healy, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson
2) Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry
3) Mike Ross, Declan Fitzpatrick
4) Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy
5) Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner
6) Stephen Ferris, Kevin McLaughlin
7) Chris Henry, Peter O'Mahony
8) Jamie Heaslip

9) Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Isaac Boss
10) Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan
11) Simon Zebo, Andrew Trimble
12) Brian O'Driscoll, JJ Hanrahan
13) Keith Earls, Darren Cave
14) Tommy Bowe, Craig Gilroy
15) Rob Kearney

I would like to see us try Madigan or Hanrahan in that 12 position. BOD at 12 for the first test against SA anyway- just don't feel that will happen. Don't think BOD will let himself be moved again.

We have a very serious problem. ROG, Wallace, D'Arcy. All surplus to the requirements of the national team. All more than good enough to start for their provinces. And they will, believe me. Makes blooding their replacements exceptionally hard.

Could Hanrahan join BOD as a select group of people to be capped without ever playing for their province?

Would assume he'll see gametime before then.

But none of the provinces are going to be playing anyone who can offer any more than mediocrity at 12 in truth. I'm just as unconvinced by McFadden and Downey as any of the other options on the table.

Fionn Carr could be a bolter ahead of Trimble or Gilroy. I mean, he won't. We know he won't be selected. But he should start the season as first choice for Leinster with the injuries they have.

How would this team fare against Argentina:

01 Cian Healy
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Eoin Reddan
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Craig Gilroy
12 James Downey
13 Darren Cave
14 Fionn Carr
15 Rob Kearney (C)

16 Rory Best
17 Mike Ross
18 Paul O'Connell
19 Jamie Heaslip
20 Peter Stringer
21 Ian Madigan
22 Keith Earls

I don't like fullbacks as Captain. I would be tempted to retain Best or O'Connell there purely to have them Captain.

Unless Downey picks it up a fair bit I don't want him in the side, I have never thought much of him for Northampton. Nagle is far enough down the pecking order at Munster and injured, he had that one great game and hasn't down much. Has a lot to prove before he is a starter for Musnter at Rabo never mind Ireland.

I'd rather see Spence in at 13 than Cave honestly.

Is their a summer tour when the lions is on?

Fionn Carr?? Bit out of the blue no?

Notch wrote:Would assume he'll see gametime before then.

But none of the provinces are going to be playing anyone who can offer any more than mediocrity at 12 in truth. I'm just as unconvinced by McFadden and Downey as any of the other options on the table.

Fionn Carr could be a bolter ahead of Trimble or Gilroy. I mean, he won't. We know he won't be selected. But he should start the season as first choice for Leinster with the injuries they have.

Can't see Carr getting in to the Irish set up but defo Leinster.

Hugely agree with you on the first point it's very frustrating. If rog, Darcy and Wallace retired it would benefit Irish rugby. Guys like spence, Marshall, McFadden/O'Malley, hanrahan are all behind guys who shouldn't really play for Ireland again.

Not sure I agree with your squad notch don't like earls as a centre and can jj be included with no gametime with munster. I think I'd include more players for experience sake.

Like that team stag against the argies.

Is Carr going to be starting for Leinster next season if Kearney Jr and Fitz are both out?

Silly question actually, McFadden will start.

Also why wilkinson? Would you rate him above Mcallister?

Yeah instead of playing Carr I'd say they will play a centre (mackin?) with McFadden on wing. Maybe McFadden will get more time at 12 who knows

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is Carr going to be starting for Leinster next season if Kearney Jr and Fitz are both out?

I would expect carr to start ,yes.

Hopefully Conway gets a chance to get some games under his belt too

Could O'Malley make a good option on the wing? Does he have the raw pace?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hugely agree with you on the first point it's very frustrating. If rog, Darcy and Wallace retired it would benefit Irish rugby. Guys like spence, Marshall, McFadden/O'Malley, hanrahan are all behind guys who shouldn't really play for Ireland again.

Well, maybe. But it would be a blow to the provinces as the guys behind them are at least behind them on merit. I mean Wallace is a better 12 than Marshall right now, no doubt about it. Luke Marshall will hopefully get a chance to show what he can do but Wallace remains essential to us.

Whats good enough to excel at provincial level isn't necessarily good enough to excel at test level but D'Arcy and Wallace have remained first choice on merit.

Feic I'm glad you young fellers aren't entrusted with taking this Ireland team forward.

Can you tell me what Downey has done to merit inclusion in any Ireland Squad except sign for Munster?

I thin it's based on him showing up for Munster, I'm a bit baffled by it otherwise!

Rava wrote:Feic I'm glad you young fellers aren't entrusted with taking this Ireland team forward.

Can you tell me what Downey has done to merit inclusion in any Ireland Squad except sign for Munster?

I think some people think we need a Roberts type 12 playing for Ireland, who can punch some holes in defences. I personally don't think we need a "Roberts" and even if we did, I don't think Downey would be the best option.

If we do want a clever 12 who is also massive, Farrell may be that man. I was not at all impressed with him until the latter stages of the JWC, where he started to really break the line and show that he is actually a very clever footballer. Might be our Jauzion type option.

Whitten too, if he continues to progress in his career for the Exiles. I wish him all the best for next season.

We need a big 12 if we are going to keep playing the same way. Mcfadden isn't up to standard, and personally don't think he ever will be. Downey is a completely average premiership standard player, but we already have plenty of skill within our team, all we are missing is bulk, which downey provides. There are literally zero other options, very sadly.

I don't think any sort of 12 whether big or small is going to help playing the way we are. Plus Ireland just aren't suited to playing a crash ball orientated game. There are actually a few physical options but as usual they aren't used. Spence is the perfect physical specimen if we want someone like that in the midfield. He is a 13 though, not a 12. He has real pace and footwork, but unfortunately this season he picked up a bad habit of running straight for contact.

Plus do we really have that much skill in our back line? I don't think so. Even O'Driscoll is starting to look rather clumsy.

The 12 who must be developed ASAP is Hanrahan at Munster. Nominee for JWC player of the tournament.

I think we do have the skill yes. Sexton, kearns, earls, fitz, bod, reddan, bowe are all great footballers. Ireland play a game that involves quick ball and direct running, so having a physical crash option at 12 is essential. At the moment we rely on healy, fez, heaslip, sob etc to do it for us, which in turn makes them less effective in other areas. The way i see it, if we want to keep playing this direct game, we need to start bigger players. If we want to use our best players, we need to hire a backs coach, so we can go around defenses not through them.

That sounds more like how Wales play, not Ireland. Ireland don't play like that, nor do they have the players to do so. In fact we are excruciatingly slow these days, and lack any invention. Our players take the ball static. Wales have 5 players in their back line over 16 stone, hence why they can play the game they do. Ireland are supposed to have smaller, more skilful backs but I don't think our players have been inventive at all recently.

Right now Ireland are playing a very disorganised and slow sort of game. Unless we pick lumps, no player is going to improve the team. Nor will we be beating any decent teams (the past two seasons have proved this). I think we do need some strike runners in our back line (otherwise it is imbalanced, every other team has big strike runners) but we don't need one dimensional crash ball centres like Downey.

The best players available for us to offer a real direct running option (if used properly) are Trimble, Fitzgerald (he runs fantastic lines for Leinster), Spence, Bowe and Gilroy. The thing is they won't be of any use in the current irish set up. They need some inventive players to put them through gaps. We take so flipping long at the breakdown though that the gaps are immediately filled.

Kearney is another of course, both Sr and Jr. They are very balanced runners. Kearney Sr runs very solid lines, and his strength was shown in NZ when he bounced SBW.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That sounds more like how Wales play, not Ireland. Ireland don't play like that, nor do they have the players to do so. In fact we are excruciatingly slow these days, and lack any invention. Our players take the ball static. Wales have 5 players in their back line over 16 stone, hence why they can play the game they do. Ireland are supposed to have smaller, more skilful backs but I don't think our players have been inventive at all recently.

Right now Ireland are playing a very disorganised and slow sort of game. Unless we pick lumps, no player is going to improve the team. Nor will we be beating any decent teams (the past two seasons have proved this). I think we do need some strike runners in our back line (otherwise it is imbalanced, every other team has big strike runners) but we don't need one dimensional crash ball centres like Downey.

The best players available for us to offer a real direct running option (if used properly) are Trimble, Fitzgerald (he runs fantastic lines for Leinster), Spence, Bowe and Gilroy. The thing is they won't be of any use in the current irish set up. They need some inventive players to put them through gaps. We take so flipping long at the breakdown though that the gaps are immediately filled.

International rugby in general usually boils down to simple bashing n crashing, with the execption of nz , aus and france(although not in the last 6ns). Ireland try to play pretty much a variation of Wales' game. They play a direct telegraphed running game, with little variation at all. Problem is, we arent physical enough in the backs, which is why we end up running into touch so often. This results in the aforementioned forwards being used to run, and thus not ruck, meaning we get slow ball. Our players have not been inventive, but our backs coaching for the past 4 years has been worse, the fact that we went 3 years without using dummy runners is testament to that. We have great backs when they are used properly, but the current game we play does not suit them at all. We have 2 options: 1- keep playing the same game, and pick bigger players. 2- get a backs coach and show some invention in our style (we have the money, bring in a backs tactician - stop using the f'in defense coach) our players in the pipelines are suited to dynamic running, we need to implement this sort of game internationally.

Anyone else think Cronin was actually better than Strauss at the end of last season anyway?

Yes, definitely. I didn't rate Cronin until this season where he was simply outstanding at times. You would think he is a back; he is just so dynamic and he has brilliant footwork. I honestly thought he was BOD when he made his break against NZ.

He's definitely the more eye catching of the two, but strauss is a cracking link man, his years playing openside give him an edge in my books. Having said that, strauss is very similar to best, no point in having them both in 22. Cronin should keep the bench slot I reckon

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Cave to be doesn't look like he has "it". He didn't get much time in an Irish jersey but the BaaBaa's game and the 10mins against the AB's (from the little we saw) didn't look good at all for him. My hopes have dropped.

I wouldnt dispute that he was poor, but it was off the back of a very long season where he played a LOT of Ulsters games. Its a good enough reason to excuse or performance in NZ, so I dont feel we can then turn round and judge someone elses chances under the same circumstances.

He deserves more chance, but certainly, I concede, he may not be the answer. But who is?

Speaking as an Ulster fan I am afraid to say I don't rate Cave all that highly. He's a great asset to Ulster but I'm just not convinced he has international class running through him. He wasn't given a fair chance in NZ and cannot be judged on that performance being thrown into a team already in disarray. Mind you he's got more class in his little finger than Carr has in his whole body. The guy won't be making it into a green shirt any time soon unless he returns to Connacht. Cronin on the other hand is an outstanding prospect and looks like he is going to go from strength to strength which will see him pushing Besty for the 2 shirt which is what we need in every position, plenty of competition.

Anyway, I am starting to waffle. I think we will be in a strong enough position for the autumn but goodness knows what surprises Kidney has up his sleeve to scupper our chances.

There's a bit of a dilemma to be resolved. If Wallace/Cave is Ulsters centre partnership, I believe we will do very well next season. It would be one of the better centre partnerships at Heineken Cup level.

But at international level, I don't think either player has the requisite pace or physicality. However both have a rugby brain and skill set which puts them way ahead of the likes of Spence for their province. Ulster are starting two Irish players in the centre, who excel at the level Ulster compete at. Neither player is the answer in a problem position for Ireland.

Is there anyone in Ireland who isnt more devoted to their club over their country at the minute? I can't wait for Ulsters season to get going again. Right now, I couldnt care less about AIs. Until we manage to convert the ability at club level to international, my interest will be seriously biased towards Ulster. I feel a heck of a lot more pride about what they are doing than Ireland. I'm sure when it eventually swing around, I'll get caught up in it all again whith high hopes and expectations, but right now, bring on the league so I can be pround about my rugby again!

Probably won't be a popular opinion...

I think it would be great to be able to play the fluid offloading slick handling game and I think we are fully capable of it but we need:

1) quicker ball
2) support runners
3) dummy runners
4) the whole team to know their role inside out

We don't do any of those things and add in the lack of physicality to that and we are going nowhere. I think we need to have a target in the backs and while Bowe, Fitz, Gilroy are strong guys who can really explode through the line, if the line is set are these guys going to make it over the advantage line carrying 2 defenders? I don't think so.

I get that guys like Cave, Wallace and Darcy and others are holding back the likes of Spence, Marshall, McFadden, EOM, JJ et al but they are the best guys at this particular time for their provinces. The young lads I think could be great but they need week in week out games playing against the best opposition to see if they can hack it.

How long before Wallace, Cave, BOD, Darcy all retire? Cave has a while but the other 3 could be at the end of this season.