Irish Autumn Squad-BOD AND BEST OUT!

So Kidney announces his squad today, a 32 man panel against the boks and pumas. More players come into consideration for the Fiji game.

A 31 man Ireland squad including four uncapped players has been named by Ireland Coach Declan Kidney for the 2012 Guinness Series games against South Africa, Fiji and Argentina.

Centre Luke Marshall and forward Iain Henderson named in the panel and who were involved in the Ireland training camp in September are included in the squad as are prop David Kilcoyne and hooker Richardt Strauss, who is now eligible to play for Ireland based on his residency for the past three years.
In addition to the naming of the Ireland squad for the 2012 Guinness Series, there were also changes announced to the makeup of the national coaching staff with current Munster Assistant Coach and former international Anthony Foley joining the Ireland coaching team.

Foley will be now be leading the defence plans and systems allowing Assistant Coach Les Kiss to lead the attack shape for the team as well as continue to coach the backline. Foley will remain working with Munster Rugby outside of the international window. It was also confirmed that Leinster scrum coach, Greg Feek will continue providing his expertise to the Ireland team during competition time.

Commenting on the Guinness Series games and the addition of Anthony Foley, Ireland Coach Declan Kidney said: "We have three incredibly competitive games ahead of us in November and while there have been quite a few injuries and niggles in the early part of the season, it has opened up opportunities for other players to step into the squad. There are world ranking points on offer, so the underlying challenge for us is to work towards retaining and improving our ranking position ahead of the Rugby World Cup pool draw. While that is the end goal, our focus will be getting our preparations right to match the intensity of international games.

"I'm pleased that Anthony has taken up the offer of working with the squad to assist during this vital period in November. His previous experience of working with the team during the last RBS 6 Nations championship was important, but his own abilities and experience were central to bringing him onboard. I would like to thank Rob Penney and Joe Schmidt for being so positive and giving Anthony Foley and Greg (Feek) the scope to be part of the plans that we have."

Anthony Foley said: "I was delighted when Declan approached Rob and me about the possibility of working with the Ireland team again. I enjoyed the opportunity I got during the Six Nations working with the players and I felt once we were all comfortable with the balance between Munster and Ireland, I jumped at the chance. I certainly feel I can contribute positively and when you get the chance to coach with your country, you don't want to pass it up.

Ticket sales have reached over 46,000 for the South Africa game with only a limited number of categories available for purchase from IrishRugby.ie and www.ticketmaster.ie

While the Argentina game is a full month away, ticket sales are at just over 37,000 tickets and are selling quickly and have already surpassed the attendance the last time Argentina visited the Aviva.

Fitzpatrick has been included in this weeks squad for the dragons.

I think Gilroy will miss out. Only made the bench for the last four Ulster games I think. He's already been left out of one squad in the summer when he was playing well and first choice. Not necessarily a bad thing, that will mean he has plenty of opportunity to try and nail down a starting place in Ulster whilst Bowe and Trimble are away.

Will be interesting to see what fullbacks are included. We've seen Leinster experiment with Keatley and Madigan there, Ulster have used the NIQ Jared Payne. Then we have Robbie Henshaw of Connacht and I think Kidney will overlook him due to inexperience. Kearney is injured still? Big weak spot at 15.

I feel like this is the weakest group of Irish players Kidney has had to pick from in a long time, despite the big increase in the number of Ulstermen fighting for a place. It could be a rough autumn series.

One word:

Chris Henry.

Ok that was two I suppose.

Prefered Team:

15. Madigan
14. Trimble
13. Bowe
12. O'Driscoll
11. Zebo
10. Sexton
9. Murray
8. Heaslip
7. Henry
6. Ferris
5. O'Connell
4. Tuohy
3. Ross
2. Best
1. Healy

Bench: Court, Stauss, Ryan, O'Mahoney, Marshall, Keatley, Gilroy

Ah, Earls would definitely be in there.

Notch wrote:
I feel like this is the weakest group of Irish players Kidney has had to pick from in a long time, despite the big increase in the number of Ulstermen fighting for a place. It could be a rough autumn series.

I think we are in for a tough ride because a lot of Kidneys (and the IRFU's) chosen sons are out of sorts or returning from injury and he's shown an unwillingness in the past to look outside that core group.

I fear this AI series will be used more to nurse these guys back to form and fitness with one eye on the 6N, than actually picking the form players to go out and perform -and or develop for the future.

The experimenting will be done against Fiji and I think we'll stick with the old guard against Argentina and SA.

If I was a betting man I'd say we'll play a blinder against Fiji with the young guns whilst the untouchables stutter to a narrow win and loss against the Pumas and Boks respectively.

Notch wrote:Ah, Earls would definitely be in there.

Not in my team he won't

Notch wrote:I feel like this is the weakest group of Irish players Kidney has had to pick from in a long time. This is evident in the big increase in the number of Ulstermen fighting for a place. It could be a rough autumn series.

I agree with your team rodders bar Murray and tuohy.

Yeah 15 is a huge weakspot not. Hopefully jOnes starts this weekend. We really need him.

Agree Henry should be there but think pom will get 7.

If Fitzpatrick is fit he should be there he's a great scrummager. If we bring 6 back3 players who'd get in there ahead of gilroy? Darcy w ferg to wing???

I do feel that way too, but it can't be ignored there's no young POC or BOD pushing for inclusion. The old ones are still the dominant personalities in the dressing room, but that makes it hard for new leaders to come out of their shadow. We need guys like Sexton, Henry, Heaslip, Best, Kearney, O'Mahony etc. to step forward and be counted. I think the malaise in 'Team Ireland' can't be put down to just one thing. Its poor coaching, key players holding on long past their peak, people looking to the big stars like BOD and POC to inspire us when they themselves need to stand up be counted, lack of depth in key positions like tighthead, and a lack of togetherness across provincial lines in the dressing room.

Of course Henry may not even be selected. Although Anscombe is backing him as being good enough to get the 7 jersey against the Boks.

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/news/15002.php

I do think if you have a policy of picking the man on form, thats him.

Stag ye bollix. Up to your usual mischief!

There's a grain of truth in it. Ulster look the most on-form Irish province with Leinster beset by injury worries and yet to go beyond second gear. But thats not because we've been spectacular, the other provinces have spluttered and stuttered.

Ulster are certainly no Leinster 2011/2012 or Munster 2005/2006.

Very unsure what hagan has done to get a call up. Folds like a deck chair any time I have seen him play. Really hasn't kicked on since joining Leinster.

Standulstermen wrote:Very unsure what hagan has done to get a call up. Folds like a deck chair any time I have seen him play. Really hasn't kicked on since joining Leinster.

Options behind Ross are;

Declan Fitzpatrick
Ronan Loughney
Tony Buckley
Jamie Hagan
Stephen Archer

Frightening, isn't it?

It absolutely is frightening notch but I would take fitz, loughney before hagan and loughney was dreadful up at ravenhill. I would go as far as to say I would take Court at TH over Hagan. That's how little I rate him and I think he will be bypassed at Leinster soon enough

Notch I think there are lots of new players knocking on the door.

- Sean Dougall
- Luke Marshall
- Craig Gilroy
- Robbie Hensaw
- Paul Marshall
- Dave McSharry
- James Downey
- Paddy Jackson
- Simon Zebo

are all looking like guys who could add something to the Irish team at the moment.

There is a need for change in the #12 shirt and there are LOT of ways to do that. There is a change to be made at #7, a very open spot at #11 and a place up for grabs at #15.

I believe in always picking your best team and right now I dont think that Gordon Darcy, Peter O'Mahony, Keith Earls and Rob Kearney (i.e the usual boys in these positions) are the way to go due to lack of playing time in these positions, the emergence of a better player or a lack of fitness.

Thats your experiment - go with Luke Marshall, Chris Henry, Simon Zebo and Robbie Henshaw. Reward the form they have shown especially when there are injuries over the incumbent players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/kidney-to-stick-with-familiar-faces-as-ogara-and-kearney-near-fitness-3271013.html

Talk in that article of a recall for Tomas O'Leary, sounds pretty much like its going to be who you'd expect.

Stand

He was playing excellently before Ross came back

Ps: I thought Fitzpatrick was injured he's best after ross

red_stag wrote:Notch I think there are lots of new players knocking on the door.

- Sean Dougall
- Luke Marshall
- Craig Gilroy
- Robbie Hensaw
- Paul Marshall
- Dave McSharry
- James Downey
- Paddy Jackson
- Simon Zebo

Yep, those guys are putting their hands up to be part of a future generation of internationals. I've bolded Zebo because I believe he is the only one who will actually be selected in this 30-man panel, but we could indeed have a good team with those lads coming in after the next RWC.

I don't believe that a coach under siege defending our RWC seeding is going to change whats broken. Adding some youth and flair is probably the right move. I personally hope Henshaw gets picked.

Have to disagree Pete but will concede you would have seen more of him. I had high hopes for him but I genuinely don't see him ever challenging in green.

Anyone else think Iain Henderson might get a call-up?

Its amazing how excitable people can get about players.

I've encountered a few people on Twitter who suggested that David Kilcoyne could be a Lions Tour bolter and that he was "definitely" already better than Tom Court.

Notch wrote:Anyone else think Iain Henderson might get a call-up?

I think he might. Kidney likes tweeners (guys who can play both 4 and 6).

Henderson is like a young Mike McCarthy (I hope to God he is not picked).

red_stag wrote:

There is a need for change in the #12 shirt and there are LOT of ways to do that. There is a change to be made at #7, a very open spot at #11 and a place up for grabs at #15.

I believe in always picking your best team and right now I dont think that Gordon Darcy, Peter O'Mahony, Keith Earls and Rob Kearney (i.e the usual boys in these positions) are the way to go due to lack of playing time in these positions, the emergence of a better player or a lack of fitness.

Thats your experiment - go with Luke Marshall, Chris Henry, Simon Zebo and Robbie Henshaw. Reward the form they have shown especially when there are injuries over the incumbent players.

A lot of folks are talking about players who arn't first choice at their clubs. Rodders suggested Bowe at 13. If Bowe were good enough at 13 for Ireland, he would be 13 at Ulster. Its not worth suggesting. Nor is Luke Marshall.

Truth is, (and this won't go down well), the best 12 At Ulster and in Ireland is and has been for a few year Paddy 'bloody' Wallace.

Until Luke Marshall or someone else overtakes him as the best 12 in the country, the only reasonable option for Ireland is not to pick an under par 12, but to pick the form 12 and LET HIM PLAY THE WAY HE IS LET TO PLAY AT HIS CLUB.

I know, I know, It's Kidney, it won't happen. But it is just ludicrous that a player can be consistently the best in that position at club level, and the national coaching setup seemingly fail to get the same out of that player. That failure alone, to me, is a damning indictment of Declan Kidney.

red_stag wrote:Its amazing how excitable people can get about players.

I've encountered a few people on Twitter who suggested that David Kilcoyne could be a Lions Tour bolter and that he was "definitely" already better than Tom Court.

Hmm, yeah. Court has actually been having a very good season. Cusack gave him problems last time out but he's been carrying strongly and scrummaging well.

Clive, I thought that Wallace had been injured and that Marshall had been the guy at 12 during the winning streak.

Obviously I wasnt paying close enough attention.

Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

Also at the time of writing the Irish Times reports that 40,000 tickets have been sold for the Boks and 30,000 for the Pumas. Remember when trying to get a ticket to watch Ireland was genuinely difficult? It's possible neither of these games will be sell-outs. The Irish Public has certainly fallen out of love with the national rugby team- its very sad.

red_stag wrote:Clive, I thought that Wallace had been injured and that Marshall had been the guy at 12 during the winning streak.

Obviously I wasnt paying close enough attention.

Last four games, Wallace has been keeping Marshall out of the team. Luke Marshall played ok in the first three games of the season but was rested for the Cardiff match- Wallace came in off the bench early on and put a high level performance in which has seen him hold onto the shirt.

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

Way too soon to throw Dougall into the mix. While praising Dougall for his form, Penney said that he needed another 2/3 years to develop his physicality and get experience before he will be a top openside.

Its a bit soon to be writing off O'Mahoney with 3 starts & Murray with 9 starts and less than half those with Sexton.

From what I'm reading/hearing, O'Leary is doing really well with LI and starting every game, so he should be in the mix.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

How do you know that Cave didn't say to Kidney that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing 12 since he has never played there before?

and .... Wallace was on standby (and being paid to be on standby). What was he doing in Portugal?

He loves him sitting on the bench alright.

Kidney seems to think there has been a new IRB directive that Paddy Wallace must be included on every Irish replacement selection. Not to play like, just to sit there!

Sin é wrote:Way too soon to throw Dougall into the mix. While praising Dougall for his form, Penney said that he needed another 2/3 years to develop his physicality and get experience before he will be a top openside.

Its a bit soon to be writing off O'Mahoney with 3 starts & Murray with 9 starts and less than half those with Sexton.

From what I'm reading hearing, O'Leary is doing really well with LI and starting every game, so he should be in the mix.

SinÉ,

I think O'Mahony is great. I just think he is not suited to 7 either for Munster or Ireland and has the skill set to be a top 6 or maybe an 8.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

How do you know that Cave didn't say to Kidney that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing 12 since he has never played there before?

and .... Wallace was on standby (and being paid to be on standby). What was he doing in Portugal?

Yea because professional players often say to their international coach "I don't fancy that position, what about Paddy?"

Sin é you are hilarious at times.

red_stag wrote:

Sin é wrote:Way too soon to throw Dougall into the mix. While praising Dougall for his form, Penney said that he needed another 2/3 years to develop his physicality and get experience before he will be a top openside.

Its a bit soon to be writing off O'Mahoney with 3 starts & Murray with 9 starts and less than half those with Sexton.

From what I'm reading hearing, O'Leary is doing really well with LI and starting every game, so he should be in the mix.

SinÉ,

I think O'Mahony is great. I just think he is not suited to 7 either for Munster or Ireland and has the skill set to be a top 6 or maybe an 8.

and I bet he will be on the bench because of his versatility.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

How do you know that Cave didn't say to Kidney that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing 12 since he has never played there before?

and .... Wallace was on standby (and being paid to be on standby). What was he doing in Portugal?

God, here we go.

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:

There is a need for change in the #12 shirt and there are LOT of ways to do that. There is a change to be made at #7, a very open spot at #11 and a place up for grabs at #15.

I believe in always picking your best team and right now I dont think that Gordon Darcy, Peter O'Mahony, Keith Earls and Rob Kearney (i.e the usual boys in these positions) are the way to go due to lack of playing time in these positions, the emergence of a better player or a lack of fitness.

Thats your experiment - go with Luke Marshall, Chris Henry, Simon Zebo and Robbie Henshaw. Reward the form they have shown especially when there are injuries over the incumbent players.

A lot of folks are talking about players who arn't first choice at their clubs. Rodders suggested Bowe at 13. If Bowe were good enough at 13 for Ireland, he would be 13 at Ulster. Its not worth suggesting. Nor is Luke Marshall.

Truth is, (and this won't go down well), the best 12 At Ulster and in Ireland is and has been for a few year Paddy 'bloody' Wallace.

Until Luke Marshall or someone else overtakes him as the best 12 in the country, the only reasonable option for Ireland is not to pick an under par 12, but to pick the form 12 and LET HIM PLAY THE WAY HE IS LET TO PLAY AT HIS CLUB.

I know, I know, It's Kidney, it won't happen. But it is just ludicrous that a player can be consistently the best in that position at club level, and the national coaching setup seemingly fail to get the same out of that player. That failure alone, to me, is a damning indictment of Declan Kidney.

Disagree there Clive. Ireland are at the end of a cycle and it imperative that we start bringing through players younger. Marshall has had good gametime this season and performed well. Paddy isn't going to offer Ireland anything long term and has been mismanaged and vilified to such an extent it's a wonder he has any desire left for a call up.

The reality is that if we don't start bringing young guys through they end up like McFadden, bags of untapped potential, never settled or comfortable and closer to 30 than 20. It's time to be bold and make changes and turn to youth. I of course expect none of this to happen but I would sooner see Marshall in over Wallace than an old timer like DOC in at the expense of Ryan in the last 6N. Remember DOC is now munsters starting lock with Ryan at 6 as well.

clivemcl wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

How do you know that Cave didn't say to Kidney that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing 12 since he has never played there before?

and .... Wallace was on standby (and being paid to be on standby). What was he doing in Portugal?

Yea because professional players often say to their international coach "I don't fancy that position, what about Paddy?"

Sin é you are hilarious at times.

The mistake made was bringing Cave in the first place because he isn't good enough to be a starter at 13 and he can only cover one position.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:Anyway Wallace will be there. Kidney loves him. Even had a change of heart and brought him to New Zealand in the end.

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

How do you know that Cave didn't say to Kidney that he wouldn't feel comfortable playing 12 since he has never played there before?

and .... Wallace was on standby (and being paid to be on standby). What was he doing in Portugal?

God, here we go.

If you want a quiet life, avoid making statement like this !

That was a pretty disgraceful mistake! Basically said to Cave "I don't trust you" and sold Wallace down the river at the same time. Farcial having a player fly in the day before a test match to join up with the squad and represent Ireland...

Paddy is 33 and to be quite blunt has had enough chances to show that he can make the step up to international level and hasn't taken them.

Clive if Earls can be considered on the wing, then Bowe can be considered at centre. The latter being more logical than the former imo.

Sin é wrote:
The mistake made was bringing Cave in the first place because he isn't good enough to be a starter at 13 there were already enough Ulstermen in the side and he can only cover one position.

Fixed for you Sin

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The mistake made was bringing Cave in the first place because he isn't good enough to be a starter at 13 there were already enough Ulstermen in the side and he can only cover one position.

Fixed for you Sin

He could have done with another Ulsterman (Tommy Bowe) in the side - he could have moved him to centre alongside BOD Pity he was injured.

I, fairly uncontroversially, feel it would have been better to have named Cave at 13 and BOD or Sexton at 12. Yes, we had to move somebody out of position but at least they were with the squad- Wallace was keeping himself fit and available, actually postponing an operation he needed, but its unreasonable and unprofessional to have a player fly across the world and have just 1 or 2 sessions with the team before a test with the world champions. The decision to call-up Wallace was made problematic by his flight being delayed due to bad weather and it exposes an initial error of judgement by Kidney and the IRFU in the original selection and the number of players brought. This is ancient history.

OK, so Rodders, how would you expect Anscombe to react if Kidney was to play Bowe ahead of Cave at 13 at the highest level, and Stand, how would you expect Anscombe to react if Kidney were to play Luke Marshall ahead of Paddy Wallace at the highest level?

Can you say this is true for international level but not also true for club?

Do you guys want Marshall to start for Ulster right now, and Bowe to play 13 to accommodate Gilroy?

I'm not saying you are wrong. But surely you need to carry your selection beliefs across to club level too?

Well Luke Marshall is picked ahead of Wallace. I think thats actually the right decision despite the fact Wallace is still the better player.

Marshall needs to be involved with Ireland, it'll help him grow as a player and motivate him to take Wallaces place.

Iain Henderson in as well.

No Madigan OR Keatley...

Well done!

Anthony Foley to take over the brief of defence coach and Les Kiss to focus on attack.

Can someone post it?

I expect anscombe is happy to have 2 good 12s. To be honest I don't think he will care ass long as one of them is available!

Notch wrote:I, fairly uncontroversially, feel it would have been better to have named Cave at 13 and BOD or Sexton at 12. Yes, we had to move somebody out of position but at least they were with the squad- Wallace was keeping himself fit and available, actually postponing an operation he needed, but its unreasonable and unprofessional to have a player fly across the world and have just 1 or 2 sessions with the team before a test with the world champions. The decision to call-up Wallace was made problematic by his flight being delayed due to bad weather and it exposes an initial error of judgement by Kidney and the IRFU in the original selection and the number of players brought. This is ancient history.

Wallace could have been out there a heck of a lot faster if he went straight from home and not the beach. Didn't he lose a day by not having his mobile phone with him on the beach? Its not the first time that players have had to fly out to cover injuries (most recently, Damien Varley & Mike Sherry during the world cup).

Why didn't Paddy delay his beach holiday until he wasn't required? Surely that must have been a breach of contract! And as far as I know the 'initial error of judgement by Kidney' was down to cost constraints by the IRFU. Ian Madigan could have slotted in instead if he had been allowed to travel.