Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

RELAND SUMMER TOUR SQUAD (New Zealand 2012):

Backs (13):

Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
AN Other

Forwards (16):

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster) *
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
AN Other
AN Other
AN Other

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - out of interest, which irish players are overrated and why? Excluding Sexton, we already know your opinion on him. I really hope you answer this because to be honest, it just looks like another dig against Leinster/Ulster. Kidney is the coach, it isn't his fault. It is the (non-Munster) players. That is how it looks to me.

This is backed up by his idea that Irelands players were at their best in 2008 when Munster were the HC champions but both Leinster and Ulster were fairly ordinary.Now we have 3 teams capable of getting to the HC knockouts (2 finalists) and Leinster are back to back champions we're meant to believe our players aren't as good.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - out of interest, which irish players are overrated and why? Excluding Sexton, we already know your opinion on him. I really hope you answer this because to be honest, it just looks like another dig against Leinster/Ulster. Kidney is the coach, it isn't his fault. It is the (non-Munster) players. That is how it looks to me.

World Class: POC (rarely fit nowadays), BOD, Kearney & Bowe (not in the 6Ns - probably down to injury). Healy is getting there. Ferris if he was fit.
Good International Players: Best, Ryan, SOB, Heaslip, Earls
The rest: unproven or just fairly average.

Out of that we have two fit world class players going to NZ - BOD & Kearney. Fine player that SOB is, he didn't get his European Player of the Year Award at 7.

Sadly there is some truth in what you say

Ireland were better in 2008 when Munster were top dog

Seeing as Leinster are now top dog and Ulster vastly improved
clearly Ireland must have been better in 2008

I think that is is the nub of the arguement

So Kidney can't do anything better - just trust to luck that is laughable.

We do not have 15 World Class players but in Kearney, Bowe, Earls, BOD, Sexton, SOB, Ferris, Ryan, POC, Healy and Best we have 11 excellent players who should be the core of a team producing much much better results than we are currently getting - that is down to Kidney

I'm glad it's only just you Sin who is wallowing in negativity... the lack of ambition you have for our team is breathtaking. "We're shoite, hopefully we'll get a bit of a bounce of the ball and get the odd lucky win, various Leinster players are overrated." What even gets you excited to watch Ireland play rugby? Do you just take more pleasure pointing out how overrated players are than wanting us to actually improve?

I think the mindset of most of the people on here is encouraging- we're sick of the IRFU settling for second (or third or fourth) best. We want to see changes made that give us a chance to move forward as a rugby nation.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - out of interest, which irish players are overrated and why? Excluding Sexton, we already know your opinion on him. I really hope you answer this because to be honest, it just looks like another dig against Leinster/Ulster. Kidney is the coach, it isn't his fault. It is the (non-Munster) players. That is how it looks to me.

This is backed up by his idea that Irelands players were at their best in 2008 when Munster were the HC champions but both Leinster and Munster were fairly ordinary.Now we have 3 teams capable of getting to the HC knockouts (2 finalists) and Leinster are back to back champions we're meant to believe our players aren't as good.

Only picked that team because it was one of the best results against NZ in the last 10 years.

Even you must see that players get past their prime and players like David Wallace & Jerry Flannery are going to be missed.

I don't ever remember Leinster as being referred to as ordinary. They were pretty sensational against Toulouse on one occasion anyway.

We have replaced Flannery more than adequately
Yes Wallace was very good but SOB has emerged since - hes not bad either.

Talk about faint praise - Leinster did play sensationally - ONCE

Notch wrote:I'm glad it's only just you Sin who is wallowing in negativity... the lack of ambition you have for our team is breathtaking. "We're shoite, hopefully we'll get a bit of a bounce of the ball and get the odd lucky win, various Leinster players are overrated." What even gets you excited to watch Ireland play rugby? Do you just take more pleasure pointing out how overrated players are than wanting us to actually improve?

I think the mindset of most of the people on here is encouraging- we're sick of the IRFU settling for second (or third or fourth) best. We want to see changes made that give us a chance to move forward as a rugby nation.

We're talking about playing one team away from home x 3 times. I don't expect a result, thats all as I just think NZ have better players than we do.

Please note: that I've some Leinster players in my world class category (and only 1 (injured) Munsterman.

The fact that this seems to escape you, says more about your provincial biases than mine.

Sin é wrote:
Even you must see that players get past their prime and players like David Wallace & Jerry Flannery are going to be missed.

Sin as great as those players were they've been replaced by equally good, if not better players.

There is no aspect of that 2008 side, or the 2006 side which almost beat the AB's twice, where they were superior, or at least where they should be superior. We have better players and more options in pretty much every position.

What we lack is a coaching team which is able to get the best out of the resources available.

We had a stronger lineout back then that's about it...

Sin é wrote:
Please note: that I've some Leinster players in my world class category (and only 1 (injured) Munsterman.

I thought this was the international board and we were talking about Irish players.

geoff998rugby wrote:We have replaced Flannery more than adequately

The lineout has not functioned as well since the loss of Hayes & Flannery and Best has only come into his own for the world cup.

Yes Wallace was very good but SOB has emerged since - hes not bad either.

He might turn out to be as good as David Wallace, but at this moment in time he isn't there yet.

Talk about faint praise - Leinster did play sensationally - ONCE

The point was made that Leinster were ordinary back then, they were never ordinary and at least sensational on one occasion.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I'm glad it's only just you Sin who is wallowing in negativity... the lack of ambition you have for our team is breathtaking. "We're shoite, hopefully we'll get a bit of a bounce of the ball and get the odd lucky win, various Leinster players are overrated." What even gets you excited to watch Ireland play rugby? Do you just take more pleasure pointing out how overrated players are than wanting us to actually improve?

I think the mindset of most of the people on here is encouraging- we're sick of the IRFU settling for second (or third or fourth) best. We want to see changes made that give us a chance to move forward as a rugby nation.

We're talking about playing one team away from home x 3 times. I don't expect a result, thats all as I just think NZ have better players than we do.

Please note: that I've some Leinster players in my world class category (and only 1 (injured) Munsterman.

The fact that this seems to escape you, says more about your provincial biases than mine.

I fully expect us to get hammered. If we were at our potential I'd just expect us to lose, with the hope we could maybe sneak one.

I don't think it does either

asoreleftshoulder wrote:We had a stronger lineout back then that's about it...

Ulster had the most consistant lineout in Europe and if Leinster can manage to secure ball and vary their lineout with Cullen and Thorn then there's no reason why that should be the case either.

Poor coaching again and this time from Gert Smal.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Please note: that I've some Leinster players in my world class category (and only 1 (injured) Munsterman.

I thought this was the international board and we were talking about Irish players.

Just emphasising the point that I rate other players who don't play for Munster (you may have noticed that some poster's only contribution to this discussion is that I'm blinded by provincial bias).

So what team do you pick to start against the ABs? Or do you just pick 15 names out of a hat and hope for a bit of luck?

as an aside id murder a magners/bulmers. its some day out there

my two cents is that we have an awful lot of very good players if not true world class. far too many good players to be ranked 8 in the world however. At provincial level we beat the cream of france and england regularly. Clermont,toulouse,leicester,saracens etc are rammed full of top international players. there is a step up in standard but our standards should also raise as we are picking the best players from 2 strong provinces and the strongest provincial team in European history.

i just dont think we have the raw power, set piece or bulk to play the "style" of rugby we are attempting to play. If we persist in doing this we will go nowhere fast, players will lose interest and so will the fans.

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:We had a stronger lineout back then that's about it...

Ulster had the most consistant lineout in Europe and if Leinster can manage to secure ball and vary their lineout with Cullen and Thorn then there's no reason why that should be the case either.

Poor coaching again and this time from Gert Smal.

Leinster started McLaughlin to counter Ulster's lineout and then they brought on Devon Toner.

By the way, neither Muller or Thorn are Ireland qualified.

Mickado wrote:So what team do you pick to start against the ABs? Or do you just pick 15 names out of a hat and hope for a bit of luck?

Not even luck will be good enough to beat the ABs on their home patch I'm afraid.

dublin_dave wrote:as an aside id murder a magners/bulmers. its some day out there

my two cents is that we have an awful lot of very good players if not true world class. far too many good players to be ranked 8 in the world however. At provincial level we beat the cream of france and england regularly. Clermont,toulouse,leicester,saracens etc are rammed full of top international players. there is a step up in standard but our standards should also raise as we are picking the best players from 2 strong provinces and the strongest provincial team in European history.

i just dont think we have the raw power, set piece or bulk to play the "style" of rugby we are attempting to play. If we persist in doing this we will go nowhere fast, players will lose interest and so will the fans.

Guy Noves said that France getting to the final of the world cup really fecked up the French season (both internationally and club wise) - just don't expect them to get rolled over so easily next season (or be as unlucky)!

So you don't pick anybody?

Forfeit the game?

Or play a team that will learn from a loss maybe? Who would be in that team?

Sin é wrote:

Guy Noves said that France getting to the final of the world cup really fecked up the French season (both internationally and club wise) - just don't expect them to get rolled over so easily next season (or be as unlucky)!

And there it is Leinster won the HC because the French were tired and we got lucky.You just can't stop yourself.

dublin_dave wrote:as an aside id murder a magners/bulmers. its some day out there

Dave!!! As if Sin e wasn't making my day miserable enough!!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Guy Noves said that France getting to the final of the world cup really fecked up the French season (both internationally and club wise) - just don't expect them to get rolled over so easily next season (or be as unlucky)!

And there it is Leinster won the HC because the French were tired and we got lucky.You just can't stop yourself.

The point was made that Irish teams beat, or did well against Clermont & Toulouse (crammed with international players). I think that could be regarded as a negative for the French & Welsh teams as they were in NZ until the end of October. And Guy Noves agrees with me.

Mickado wrote:So you don't pick anybody?

Forfeit the game?

Or play a team that will learn from a loss maybe? Who would be in that team?

Are you just trying to get me to post something (like I don't rate such and such a player) that you can forever and a day throw back at me every time I don't agree with you

rodders its torture mate. bit hungover from a spontaneous night out last night. office is killing me.

what about the other 2 leinster hc wins sin??????? french port blockades, public sector strikes. the rise of the loony left to blame?

also who won us the HC this year?? Elsom won our first. Nacewa our 2nd. Our very average fly half was a bit part player in all finals lets be honest

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:So you don't pick anybody?

Forfeit the game?

Or play a team that will learn from a loss maybe? Who would be in that team?

Are you just trying to get me to post something (like I don't rate such and such a player) that you can forever and a day throw back at me every time I don't agree with you

Why are you avoiding the question? Waiting on Hugh Farrelly to commit to print his preffered team to start the tests? Have you got no opinions of your own?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:So you don't pick anybody?

Forfeit the game?

Or play a team that will learn from a loss maybe? Who would be in that team?

Are you just trying to get me to post something (like I don't rate such and such a player) that you can forever and a day throw back at me every time I don't agree with you

Why are you avoiding the question? Waiting on Hugh Farrelly to commit to print his preffered team to start the tests? Have you got no opinions of your own?

OK, I'll give you a provincial team that might have a decent go at the ABs

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Afoa
4 Thorn
5 POC (fit version)
6 Ferris (fit version)
7 SOB (not the answer, but best we have)
8 Heislip (might want to make up for getting sent off the last time down there)
9 Pienaar
10 Sexton
11 Nacewa
12 BOD
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

16 Any Tighthead that can walk, 17 Cronin, 18 D Ryan, 19 Henry, 20 Murray, 21 ROG, 22 McFadden

dublin_dave wrote:what about the other 2 leinster hc wins sin??????? french port blockades, public sector strikes. the rise of the loony left to blame? Unlucky not to get a home semi ?

also who won us the HC this year?? Elsom won our first. Nacewa our 2nd. Our very average fly half was a bit part player in all finals lets be honest

Are you trying to say that Elsom was not the standout player the first year? crickey

Nacewa was one of the standout players the 2nd year, though quiet enough in the final game. SOB got European Player of the Year.

Kearney was the standout player this year - particularly after the 6Ns.

nope elsom was a great addition and played a key role no doubt about it but it was a team effort.

i think contepomi getting injured was a blessing in disguise to be honest for semi and final. a very good player and inside centre but a mad man of a fly half. sexton bossed both the semi and the final. not sure we would have beaten a massively experienced leicester side with felipe at 10.

anyway the point is that there are plenty of very good players in Ireland to be a good 30% better than we are. provincial rugby results would prove this.

over to you deccie and back room staff. we need to stop the rot and start going in the right direction. I will not accept one brilliant one off victoriy followed by 6 terrible performances playing horrible rugby. thats a return to the bad old days of the 90s and a loser attitude to have

Why the hell are you including NIQ players? Just pick your favoured Irish XV instead of trying to make some point

Guys, leave Sin alone. Its really not worth it. I read these message boards everyday, though nearly never take part myself, and watching 4 pages of trying to get Sin to admit to his own inevitable biases is folly. Of course Sin is biased by Munster, we all have our own biases. As a Connacht lad, maybe I have a slightly less apparent bias then the rest of ye, but I also have my biases, (think the world of Trimble and Felix Jones for example). I am convinced that if Ireland were playing the same dross but Munster won the HC, Sin would be saying the exact same thing that Secretfly and others have been saying, ie look at Munster, wins allaround them, why can’t Kidney produce a winning team from such talent? But Sin will never admit it; he’s not a WUM, he believes in this stuff. And that is fine, its his life; just the rest of ye, can we speak about rugby?

dublin_dave wrote:nope elsom was a great addition and played a key role no doubt about it but it was a team effort.

Elsom, in one season, made enough of an impression to make the dream team of the first 15 years of the competition!

I think he could be regarded as more than just a great addition.

Notch wrote:Why the hell are you including NIQ players? Just pick your favoured Irish XV instead of trying to make some point

Because they would be the difference between looking decent and getting hammered!

surely the purpose of a message board is to have some debate about irish international rugby and provincial rugby.

i questions sin e's opinions as i believe some of them to be utter nonsense and struggle to get my head around them. i feel at times his views sum up why the Irish international team is in such a malaise

HOWEVER there are times i agree with him and he makes some good points and backs them up with facts.

would be pretty boring if we all agreed with each other. there are enough yes men who fill us with bile - step up Gerry the scruffy tramp Thornley. He will still be getting teams bang on and telling us all how we are making progress when we slip to 10th in the world rankings

wolfball wrote:Guys, leave Sin alone. Its really not worth it. I read these message boards everyday, though nearly never take part myself, and watching 4 pages of trying to get Sin to admit to his own inevitable biases is folly. Of course Sin is biased by Munster, we all have our own biases. As a Connacht lad, maybe I have a slightly less apparent bias then the rest of ye, but I also have my biases, (think the world of Trimble and Felix Jones for example). I am convinced that if Ireland were playing the same dross but Munster won the HC, Sin would be saying the exact same thing that Secretfly and others have been saying, ie look at Munster, wins allaround them, why can’t Kidney produce a winning team from such talent? But Sin will never admit it; he’s not a WUM, he believes in this stuff. And that is fine, its his life; just the rest of ye, can we speak about rugby?

Wolfball, I've only two Munster players in that selection (I could have put Botha or Dougie in there).

And as far as I can remember, people did say the exact same thing about Ireland when Munster were winning HCups etc. Ireland started to go downhill after 2007 6Ns. Coincidentally, that was when Munster had to start relying on NIQ players a lot more (i.e., Tipoki & Howlett were instrumental in the 2008 win, whereas in the 2006 win, there was only 1 NIQ player in the starting team - Halstead).

Wolfball

Come man get stuck in sir! Where's Gavin Duffy eh??....

Sin é wrote:
Ireland started to go downhill after 2007 6Ns.

You said about 2 hours ago that they peaked in 2008? ....Sin you just contradict yourself man!

Yesterday you were saying how poor Sexton is at closing out games, and what a nasty piece of work he is, and then you pick your team above with him at 10??!

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ireland started to go downhill after 2007 6Ns.

You said about 2 hours ago that they peaked in 2008? ....Sin you just contradict yourself man!

Yesterday you were saying how poor Sexton is at closing out games, and what a nasty piece of work he is, and then you pick your team above with him at 10??!

OK, you got me. Up to the 2007 6Ns, Ireland were consistently improving. The world cup and '08 6Ns, Ireland were very poor. They had one good game against NZ in the summer of '08.

Not a great many options at OH available, ROG too old & unfit, Madigan can't goalkick, Keatley inexperienced, Humphreys can't tackle and far too inconsistent (though maybe with Pienaar at SH?). Sexton is the best of a bad lot.

sin who do you think the 2nd best fly half is in the world??

not a dig just curious. all bias aside i genuinely think Sexton is the best of the rest after you know who. rog of two years ago would have been up there.

steynh is limited but is always behind an absolute juggernaut pack. great kicker not creative
cooper - headcase. supremely talented but could turn into the next carlos spencer

not much out there

Sin é wrote:

The point was made that Irish teams beat, or did well against Clermont & Toulouse (crammed with international players). I think that could be regarded as a negative for the French & Welsh teams as they were in NZ until the end of October. And Guy Noves agrees with me.

Well if you can disregard a quote from Brad Thorn because "what do you expect him to say" then I think I can take the same stance with that quote of Noves.

Also what were the Irish international players doing when Wales and France were at the world cup ?Lastly what happened last year when we had the toughest run of opponents in the history of HC competition.

So the Irish team that should take on the all blacks should contain 2 all blacks and a springbok.

Making a show of yourself...

clivemcl wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Then most probable outcome is Failure, baby.

I found this rather strange until i realised you were talking to LeinsterBABY!

I agree, I'm not calling for us to crush the all blacks, I just want to see us compete playing positive rugby.

I think a win would blow my expectations entirely out of the water.

There is no reason why the group of players we have cannot beat NZ if we have the right brain trust in place in the management of the team. I'm not convinced this management group will be able to put the right plan in place. It's a big ask but its definitly possible with the playing personnel we have.

dublin_dave wrote:sin who do you think the 2nd best fly half is in the world??

not a dig just curious. all bias aside i genuinely think Sexton is the best of the rest after you know who. rog of two years ago would have been up there.

steynh is limited but is always behind an absolute juggernaut pack. great kicker not creative
cooper - headcase. supremely talented but could turn into the next carlos spencer

not much out there

Sexton is still unproven at international level to compare him internationally. A load of the French OHs have done just as much as he has, if not more at international level.

A very poorly coached French team made the world cup final!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The point was made that Irish teams beat, or did well against Clermont & Toulouse (crammed with international players). I think that could be regarded as a negative for the French & Welsh teams as they were in NZ until the end of October. And Guy Noves agrees with me.

Well if you can disregard a quote from Brad Thorn because "what do you expect him to say" then I think I can take the same stance with that quote of Noves.

Also what were the Irish international players doing when Wales and France were at the world cup ?Lastly what happened last year when we had the toughest run of opponents in the history of HC competition.

Noves has a reputation for not making excuses. The Irish internationals were back with their clubs a couple of weeks before the Welsh or French teams made it home.

The bit of luck Leinster had the season before was that all their difficult games were at home and the French teams don't travel that well.

Mickado wrote:So the Irish team that should take on the all blacks should contain 2 all blacks and a springbok.

Making a show of yourself...

Yep, Ireland is a couple of players short on top class quality if your looking for results down in NZ.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The point was made that Irish teams beat, or did well against Clermont & Toulouse (crammed with international players). I think that could be regarded as a negative for the French & Welsh teams as they were in NZ until the end of October. And Guy Noves agrees with me.

Well if you can disregard a quote from Brad Thorn because "what do you expect him to say" then I think I can take the same stance with that quote of Noves.

Also what were the Irish international players doing when Wales and France were at the world cup ?Lastly what happened last year when we had the toughest run of opponents in the history of HC competition.

Noves has a reputation for not making excuses. The Irish internationals were back with their clubs a couple of weeks before the Welsh or French teams made it home.

The bit of luck Leinster had the season before was that all their difficult games were at home and the French teams don't travel that well.

What reputation does Brad Thorn have that you can dismiss his comments?
So 2 weeks at the world cup made all the difference?You think the Leinster players were on the couch for those 2 weeks.

What about 2 years before that it's funny how all this luck keeps stacking up,reminds a bit of the old quote froma golf pro (I forget his name) "the more I practice the luckier I get".

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:So the Irish team that should take on the all blacks should contain 2 all blacks and a springbok.

Making a show of yourself...

Yep, Ireland is a couple of players short on top class quality if your looking for results down in NZ.

Right now we'd settle for results in Dublin but Kidney has even managed to mess that up.

Kidney must realise he's not cutting it as an international coach. Bradley took Ireland down to NZ in 08 and gave it a go so will DK take a leaf out of the "giving the players their head" handbook?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The point was made that Irish teams beat, or did well against Clermont & Toulouse (crammed with international players). I think that could be regarded as a negative for the French & Welsh teams as they were in NZ until the end of October. And Guy Noves agrees with me.

Well if you can disregard a quote from Brad Thorn because "what do you expect him to say" then I think I can take the same stance with that quote of Noves.

Also what were the Irish international players doing when Wales and France were at the world cup ?Lastly what happened last year when we had the toughest run of opponents in the history of HC competition.

Noves has a reputation for not making excuses. The Irish internationals were back with their clubs a couple of weeks before the Welsh or French teams made it home.

The bit of luck Leinster had the season before was that all their difficult games were at home and the French teams don't travel that well.

What reputation does Brad Thorn have that you can dismiss his comments?
So 2 weeks at the world cup made all the difference?You think the Leinster players were on the couch for those 2 weeks.

What about 2 years before that it's funny how all this luck keeps stacking up,reminds a bit of the old quote froma golf pro (I forget his name) "the more I practice the luckier I get".

Thorn's circumstances - hardly here a wet day, arrives into a winning team and ends up winning a Heineken Cup medal and is on course to win a Magners trophy now (and not a mention from any of the Leinster supporters that all of this is at the expense of Toner). Thorn is a lucky boy.

No I don't think the Leinster boys were on the couch for two weeks, I think there were training and playing with their provinces (unlike the Welsh or French who were still on international duty).

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about luck - my point is that along with everything else, you need a bit of luck. I think everyone rates home advantage. Ask the Kiwis about that one (why they have never won a world cup away from home )

Sin é wrote:
Thorn's circumstances - hardly here a wet day, arrives into a winning team and ends up winning a Heineken Cup medal and is on course to win a Magners trophy now (and not a mention from any of the Leinster supporters that all of this is at the expense of Toner). Thorn is a lucky boy.

No I don't think the Leinster boys were on the couch for two weeks, I think there were training and playing with their provinces (unlike the Welsh or French who were still on international duty).

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about luck - my point is that along with everything else, you need a bit of luck. I think everyone rates home advantage. Ask the Kiwis about that one (why they have never won a world cup away from home )

Noves circumstances,coaching a team who were knocked out early after a disappointing pool performance and then an upset in the QF,he needs an excuse to take the heat off himself and his players.

Your concern for Toner is touchin but Thorn was only over for 3 months so we'd be excited that he would use that short space of time to pass on his wisdom to Toner who will be fine.Just keep watching him,he improved hugely this year and I hope for more of the same next season.

So what difference did the WC make then the Irish players were at it as well and they weren't resting up when they came home?I fail to see how the WC did any more harm to the French than any of the other nations.

You brough up luck saying Leinster couldn't rely on it again,I'm just pointing out we haven't relied on it at all.Home semi and quarter last year is balanced out by the toughest fixture list in HC history.The Fofana knock on is balanced out by getting drawn away against the best team in France.