Deck now stacked too heavily against English clubs?

First topic message reminder :

This year has a been poor season for the English club sides in general. Not one side in the semi final of the Heineken cup, only one side in the quarter final and a league system that is continuing to divide opinion on it structure. It is now five years since an English side has won the Heineken Cup.

The Heinkeken Cup is called a club competition but if we are honest it is not really. The sides put forward by Ireland, Wales and Scotland are in effect large regions rather than individual clubs. Their league system and squad set up is designed to maximise success in the Heinekin Cup and Ireland in particular in recent years have exploited this very successfully.

The Rabo system is designed for Heineken Cup success, the Premiership and Top 14 are not. The regionalisation of the Celtic nations was designed to provide competitveness for those countries in a club competition that their own clubs would struggle to compete in without the regionalisation. English sides have to deal with issues of relegation and qualification for the Heinekin Cup that are not present in the Rabo.

Celtic nations players are consistently exposed to HC standard rugby each year as they do not have to qualify, whereas there is no guarantee for the Aviva and Top 14 players as it all depends on qualification. Therefore the same players are consistently exposed to HC levels regardless of what goes on
domestically.

Except at the business end of the season seldom do Leinster, Munster or even Edinburgh field full strength teams in the Rabo as they do in the Henieken Cup or the Rabo playoffs.

English sides also have to contend with the huge salaries being offered by their French counterparts.

These are just some of the issues I feel are now really challenging English Clubs. This is no slight on Leinster, as I have said they are the best domestic side in the Northern Hemisphere at the moment and have exploited the system offered to full advantage - also able to strengthen any weak areas with foreign imports where needed. But do England now need to look at changing their own system to contend with a club competition that is stacked against them? Thoughts welcome.

red stag without auto HC qualification it's not that simple.

Geoff let's be honest you know HC qualification is in the bag, will Connacht overtake you? Not likely.

Connacht can just piggyback Leinster. Edinburgh can do what they did this season - just put all their eggs in the HC basket.

Aironi have been too weak to be a threat to anyone. Treviso are still in their infancy.

Can Dragons compete with the other regions? Not really.

Leinster can lord it at the top as usual knowing that when the internationals come calling they can continue to blood players.

One thing that has not been touched on is that in the Pro12 virtually all teams lose players to international call ups. In the AP only the strongest sides do. This makes it harder for the stronger sides.

beshocked wrote:You are able to rest your key players in the Pro12 because most sides do it.

Where do KEY PLAYERS get up to speed to be able to compete in what is published as the 'Toughest' Club competition in the world? You can be numero uno player but you still need to be at your best to compete with gladiators from the AP and Top 14? You don't just walk off a golf course onto the field and play HC quality rugby (well, unless you're O'Driscoll, but he's an exception). You need to be at HC level each year. How do the Provincial players achieve that readiness? Or are you saying they don't need to be as ready as they should be because of the quality of the opposition coming at them from England and France? Now I know you're not saying that to me, beshocked! So how do these special Irish players get ready to compete?

Freshness is one benefit - battlehardened and match fit are others. So again, I really don't see the distinction OR the extra benefits for Irish players who are cocooned in the old cotton wool until HC time. Maybe you'll point them out for me.

We are told too that our guts come from our foreign players. Our spine is our foreign players...the business end boys. The real deal. Again, the foreign boys play a lot of games in Pro12. They don't get the cotton wool treatment so where do they come into the equation? Meanwhile the cotton wool treatment players are off playing International during some of their down times...and we're stringently told by those that know, that International is always a "step-up in intensity" from club. So the blighters aren't even in cotton wool some of the time! I must get onto Schmidt to stop that extra cirricular nonsense.

beshocked wrote:red stag without auto HC qualification it's not that simple.

I'll make you a brand new English system free of charge.

- Ring Fence the Premiership. No nasty relegation to worry about.

- Twelve teams in the Premiership - Six get Heineken Cup Rugby and you simply swap every year. Next year London Irish, Leicester Tigers, Bath Rugby, Newcastle Falcons, Sale Sharks and Harlequins get to play in the ERC. The year after Northampton Saints, London Wasps, Saracens, Gloucester, Exeter Chiefs and Worcester get a turn.

Everybody is a winner!!!

beshocked wrote:red stag without auto HC qualification it's not that simple.

Geoff let's be honest you know HC qualification is in the bag, will Connacht overtake you? Not likely.

Connacht can just piggyback Leinster. Edinburgh can do what they did this season - just put all their eggs in the HC basket.

Aironi have been too weak to be a threat to anyone. Treviso are still in their infancy.

Can Dragons compete with the other regions? Not really.

Leinster can lord it at the top as usual knowing that when the internationals come calling they can continue to blood players.

One thing that has not been touched on is that in the Pro12 virtually all teams lose players to international call ups. In the AP only the strongest sides do. This makes it harder for the stronger sides.

Do Leicester really worry about HC qualification every year? I thought the League was so important to English sides (far exceeding HC) that winning the League was always incentive enough?

And if you're six places down on that rung, you've made it - auto. That is to say, the games you need to win to get you the HC qualification happen to be the very same games you need to chase for the Aviva Premiership, the holy grail. So they're chasing a prize and that's winning as many games as you can. Same for Pro12 sides that are serious. AP has its underlings too... the sides that are never going to put up much of a threat and therefore, some downtime R&R can be had in those games for top AP side.

Secretfly I never say the spine is the foreign players.

The spine of Munster is Sir ROG, the never aging O Connell, O Callaghan etc.

At Leinster it's saintly BOD,Sexton,Kearney,SOB,Heaslip etc.

Arguably possibly at Ulster but Ferris is still the main man.

I heard from someone that the Irish boys toughen themselves for the HC by coincidentally scheduling Irish derbies just before the big HC games which get them in the right frame of mind. So I concede that there are one or two Pro12 games that are deemed as important.

beshocked wrote:No welshmushroom the attitude in the Pro12 is sit back and relax.

Auto qualification for the HC is all but guaranteed.

Understrength sides are the name of the game. You are able to rest your key players in the Pro12 because most sides do it.

"Doing an Edinburgh" is not an option for English and French clubs.

I posted elsewhere that most of Leinster's real stars like Sexton,Kearney,BOD,SOB and Heaslip only play about 6 games out of 22 in the Pro12 but played all 9 HC games.

English sides just don't have the luxury to constantly rotate because every other side puts out full strength sides because of the higher stakes of the AP.


I would fancy Saracens,Leicester,Quins and Saints over most Rabo sides. Particularly the first two.

Resting 'key players' isn't an option for the Dragons, Conancht and dare I say it the Scarlets.

I do think its a bit rich that BOD suddenly comes back for the Heino final then is a 'dead cert' for Lions captain. It would be a joke if him or ROG get nominated for a Rabbo award.

But seriously mods, we need a violin smilie, I don't think many of the English posters can convey their sadness and downtrodeness with mere words

munkian wrote:

beshocked wrote:No welshmushroom the attitude in the Pro12 is sit back and relax.

Auto qualification for the HC is all but guaranteed.

Understrength sides are the name of the game. You are able to rest your key players in the Pro12 because most sides do it.

"Doing an Edinburgh" is not an option for English and French clubs.

I posted elsewhere that most of Leinster's real stars like Sexton,Kearney,BOD,SOB and Heaslip only play about 6 games out of 22 in the Pro12 but played all 9 HC games.

English sides just don't have the luxury to constantly rotate because every other side puts out full strength sides because of the higher stakes of the AP.


I would fancy Saracens,Leicester,Quins and Saints over most Rabo sides. Particularly the first two.

Resting 'key players' isn't an option for the Dragons, Conancht and dare I say it the Scarlets.

I do think its a bit rich that BOD suddenly comes back for the Heino final then is a 'dead cert' for Lions captain. It would be a joke if him or ROG get nominated for a Rabbo award.

But seriously mods, we need a violin smilie, I don't think many of the English posters can convey their sadness and downtrodeness with mere words

Munkian, just for you.

biltongbek wrote:
Munkian, just for you.

So that's what Hersh looks like! Easy on the cheese. I hear that's what loses the gruaig.

The system is stacked against the top english clubs. By 'The System' I mean the one the clubs set up. It's designed to deliberately weaken the top clubs so they don't pull away too far from the lower down ones. That's true from salaries caps, to EPS payment smoothing, etc. That's the system we built and it's one most of us think is important to maintain the idea (illusion?) that teams can work their way up (Exeter are doing a good job, will they keep it up? Sale have a lot of very young players that did well last year, can they build on it?).

It's our system and it's like it is for a reason. What it does mean is that having sides getting to the HEC final is even more remarkable. Arguably even better than another side without the handicap winning it! [Last bit was, of course rubbish]

Some people seem to misunderstand the issue regarding relegation/qualification for HEC. It's not just that sides have to fight for it (Sarries, Leicester and Saints haven't had too many problems with that recently). It's more about the sides that can't get in the playoffs will be fighting tooth and nail for Europe spots and the money that goes with it (same goes for relegation). This means thats almost all the clubs are fighting hard throughout the season, even at the end, and therefore the top clubs can't take any game lightly. Just look at Newcastle and Leeds from the last couple of seasons. They play'd much better when staring relagation down the barrell of a gun than they did before. And this is often based on upping the physiciality. For anyone who thinks this doesn't matter as rugby players always want to win, ask any player that's been in the 3rd place playoff in the World Cup how much they cared about it. These small factors can have big impacts.

But as I said, if the clubs aren't happy with their system they need to change it. If they don't want to change it they need to suck it up and their's not much else they can do. I for one hope the system doesn't change.

End of ramble (and I'm not reading it back through)

Diolch Bill !

HammerofThunor wrote:Some people seem to misunderstand the issue regarding relegation/qualification for HEC. It's not just that sides have to fight for it (Sarries, Leicester and Saints haven't had too many problems with that recently). It's more about the sides that can't get in the playoffs will be fighting tooth and nail for Europe spots and the money that goes with it (same goes for relegation). This means thats almost all the clubs are fighting hard throughout the season, even at the end, and therefore the top clubs can't take any game lightly. Just look at Newcastle and Leeds from the last couple of seasons. They play'd much better when staring relagation down the barrell of a gun than they did before. And this is often based on upping the physiciality. For anyone who thinks this doesn't matter as rugby players always want to win, ask any player that's been in the 3rd place playoff in the World Cup how much they cared about it. These small factors can have big impacts.

But as I said, if the clubs aren't happy with their system they need to change it. If they don't want to change it they need to suck it up and their's not much else they can do. I for one hope the system doesn't change.

End of ramble (and I'm not reading it back through)

As I keep suggesting... (and I thread lightly on another League's feet) but why don't they simply reward HC effort in the AP. It is a different system to the Pro12 - true. So why not introduce a different system for HC qualification into the mix. Sides that get through to the quarter finals should have some kind of reward that will ease their thoughts about the following year - promoting the idea that fighting during HC itself is a pretty big carrot.

So give quater-finalists a guaranteed slot in the following year's HC. If one gets through it can relax a little the following year and perhaps rotate and introduce younger players etc. The other five spots would have to be won the tough way. Then if the following year three sides get through to HC, they get auto places the following year and the other three places have to be fought for in league placement.

I think that would actually introduce more motivation to perform in HC and it would also introduce a real fight for HC spots to the sides further down the AP ladder. Would make the League even more competitive but would also ease the stresses on good sides that have proven their worth in HC competition. Just a thought that keeps recurring.

beshocked wrote:No welshmushroom the attitude in the Pro12 is sit back and relax.

Auto qualification for the HC is all but guaranteed.

Understrength sides are the name of the game. You are able to rest your key players in the Pro12 because most sides do it.

"Doing an Edinburgh" is not an option for English and French clubs.

I posted elsewhere that most of Leinster's real stars like Sexton,Kearney,BOD,SOB and Heaslip only play about 6 games out of 22 in the Pro12 but played all 9 HC games.

English sides just don't have the luxury to constantly rotate because every other side puts out full strength sides because of the higher stakes of the AP.


I would fancy Saracens,Leicester,Quins and Saints over most Rabo sides. Particularly the first two.

Erm have you been watching the Rabbo this season? Because your statements here clearly indicate you have no idea what you are talking about.

Leinster have played top draw stuff regardless of it being League or europe. They managed this not because the first 15 is the best but because the backup players are also very good. Look at the top 4 in England and one thing is clear. Sure top English sides can put out good matchday 15's but when you look at the second string 15's they just are not very strong and thats when you look at the top sides let alone the mid table teams. Mallinder at the Saints basically said the same thing in a recent interview. Its fine when they can put their strongest teams out but once you cant even they struggle to compete against the best.

Also keep in mind you (Saracens) almost lost to a Italian side in the HC and probably didnt deserve to either. So as much as you would fancy your chances you clearly are also capable of pretty much losing to everyside in the league on any given day. To be fair I think you are being a little disrespectful to some of the Rabbo sides who maybe dont have the tradition that other sides have. Connacht at home for example is a match for any side including your beloved English top 4.

The truth of the matter is that for the benefit of the national sides in the Rabbo teams have to be rotated. We are already seeing the development of a lot of youngsters from Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Would Hogg for example been capped by Scotland in the last 6 Nations had he been playing the Aviva? Probably not because he would have struggled for consistent gametime. Basically everytime your first 15 is not available its should be an oppertunity to develop more players in that position. So the teams in the Rabbo who are most successful tend to be the ones with a more developed squad.

We also dont have to worry about dilluted player base. Basically we are already seeing that the standard of young players getting pro contracts is getting better as the competition is so fierce. Its the same for the Internationals who have constant battles with squad players to retain their club jerseys. English league is just filled with a bunch of journeymen, in demand english capped players (who often dont even need to earn the club shirt to wear it - except at Leicester) and a bunch of underplayed youngsters with all the focus being on short term gains.

I'm much happier that Rabbo sides are planning for the future and giving youngsters the aspiration to go on to have good international careers while teaching them the importance of working hard for the position. You can just keep your 50% buying SH imports when we are out of options (policy) and trying to qualify them for England under residency as you have at Saracens.

I've no doubt future discussions will be based around the handicap that needs to be imposed on Celtic/Italian competiting international sides when France and England stop being competitive Internationally in the 6 Nations (through a lack of their own game development)........

To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value. I'm not exactly sure where this new influence of laying blame everywhere else is coming from but I dont like it.

To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value. I'm not exactly sure where this new influence of laying blame everywhere else is coming from but I dont like it.

Get your own house in order AngloFrench, we wouldn't even be talking about this if their sides performed better.

Welshmushroom wrote:To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value.

So I am not allowed to blame Bruce Lawrence anymore either?

What's left? The truth?

What if I can't handle the truth?

Meh, just joking.

biltongbek wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value.

So I am not allowed to blame Bruce Lawrence anymore either?

What's left? The truth?

What if I can't handle the truth?

To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value. I'm not exactly sure where this new influence of laying blame everywhere else is coming from but I dont like it.

hmmm - Have you never heard the tales of woe from a certain principality's supporters?

They could have ruled the world if it wasn't for their best players moving 'Up North'?

Yes, thats exactly the same thing, best example ever, well done

I can see what some of the English posters are saying (though I do think there's equally valid counter-arguments like Feckless has put forward) but what annoys is the constantly stated fact that because the Rabo12 hasn't got relegation (even though only 2/3 of the AV teams are usually anyway involved in a relegation dogfight) and have a different HEC qualification system then this means that all the big Rabo12 sides rest all their players for most of their league games and only play them for the HEC.

This is nonsense - this being a WC year meant that ALL international players (regardless of country) rested their players - again ALL NH international players were missing before/for/after the 6N's.

They also fail to state that regardless of HEC qualification or league structure the Irish teams would have to rest their internationals for a set amount as it is part of the IRFU's rules (hence means they have to have better squads to cover).

But having a quick look I saw that I Evans (19 games) at the Ospreys has played more games (and more league games) than Castrogiovanni, Manu Tuilagi, B Youngs while only having 1 sub appearance less than Flood.

But that's neither here nor there as EVERY team needs to rotate it's team and play it's squad members - it's only logical and very sensible as it's the only way to ensure you're best players are fit enough to play to high levelsa and ensures that you develop strength in depth AND develop your youngsters.

I think that both England and France are right to push for the HC to be restructured; it would be great to have it as an uninterrupted tournament at the end of the domestic season.
Better weather would be a benefit for a more attacking style, plus it would also benefit the home nations and France on the international stage.

I'd also like to see both England and France to enter regional teams for the HC to make it a level playing field, for too long the cards have been stacked against us and the French to take on these super clubs like Leinster which is basically just an international team with a few overseas players thrown in.

But, hersh, the english don't want regions. I mentioned it a number of times before, and they don't beleive it is executable as people are to loyal to their clubs.

HERSH wrote: I'd also like to see both England and France to enter regional teams for the HC to make it a level playing field, for too long the cards have been stacked against us and the French to take on these super clubs.

regional teams in france?
there would be no support for that here for sure. even merging say Biarritz and Bayonne would create havoc.

its not because it works somewhere that it should be applied everywhere. let us enjoy our diversity.

Apart from how it would upset the fans, there is absolutely no need for regions in France. Their attendances are as good as or better than any region in many cases. Their budgets are bigger than any region.

What they do need to look at is how they approach the game. Just compare the terribly unimaginative and negative all French Amlin final, with the ambition of Leinster the HC final. Only Toulouse and Clermont play with that ambition. Many other French clubs have the skill to do so but they don't. Why not?

You think that merging both Bath and Glaws fans would be easy?

Hell we would need separate sides of the stadium to keep the peace plus we would need twice the amount of caterers as chips and burgers simple wouldn't do for us Bath fans.

But if it meant an end to this biased Irish dominance in the HC then that would be fine by me.

HammerofThunor wrote:The system is stacked against the top english clubs. By 'The System' I mean the one the clubs set up. It's designed to deliberately weaken the top clubs so they don't pull away too far from the lower down ones. That's true from salaries caps, to EPS payment smoothing, etc. That's the system we built and it's one most of us think is important to maintain the idea (illusion?) that teams can work their way up (Exeter are doing a good job, will they keep it up? Sale have a lot of very young players that did well last year, can they build on it?).

It's our system and it's like it is for a reason.

But as I said, if the clubs aren't happy with their system they need to change it. If they don't want to change it they need to suck it up and their's not much else they can do. I for one hope the system doesn't change.

Thunor, Many valid points being made here - ie salary caps, EPS payments, etc., being designed to even things out OR potentially to ensure that all games are genuinely competitive. But then set against that the 'P' shares debacle, which costs Exeter nearly £1m a year compared to all other prem clubs, and the parachute payment afforded to prem teams that drop out the AP, and it's not too much of a stretch to suggest that it is incredibly difficult for non-original Prem teams to compete evenly when they do get promoted, and when prem teams drop down they are at a distinct advantage to all other championship sides making it highly likely that they will go straight back up.

These are indeed the oddities in the structure that the clubs, the RFU and the PRL negotiated - all prem games are pretty competitive, but the premiership is quasi-ring-fenced too

HERSH wrote:You think that merging both Bath and Glaws fans would be easy?

Hell we would need separate sides of the stadium to keep the peace plus we would need twice the amount of caterers as chips and burgers simple wouldn't do for us Bath fans.

But if it meant an end to this biased Irish dominance in the HC then that would be fine by me.

I even saw a Glaws fan pour gravy on their chips once!

Maybe England entering regional teams for the HC will also give those Welsh chaps a kick up the ass, how they haven't managed to win it yet is still a huge source of amusement for me and many other rugby fans.

HERSH wrote:I think that both England and France are right to push for the HC to be restructured; it would be great to have it as an uninterrupted tournament at the end of the domestic season.
Better weather would be a benefit for a more attacking style, plus it would also benefit the home nations and France on the international stage.

I'd also like to see both England and France to enter regional teams for the HC to make it a level playing field, for too long the cards have been stacked against us and the French to take on these super clubs like Leinster which is basically just an international team with a few overseas players thrown in.

Not a very good one by the results and comments from our friends in Europe the last few years .

Plus... it kinda goes with the territory in Ireland that if you're a rugby player and Irish qualified you're on the list of possible, probable, is, isn't Internationals. That goes with the size of us.

Have you all forgotten to do your Geography homework when you come to these topics? And your population research? Big "superclubs" is it?

Wow! I like the sound of that...you mean like a few densely populated streets in London? Magnifique! What a huddle of perfect millions those Super clubs are both in followers and player bases. I love Irish superclub rugby...though the 12 million people who live in my village hate the idea.

I know Hersh is just winding up a bit, but I do like the idea of the HC (and Amlin) in one big block.

During the season I'm never quite sure which competition we are playing in from game to game.

"We are playing Exeter today - but we just played them last week (I distinctly remember those bloody drums and them Souix Indians in the East Stand) - whats going on? Hang on - we are playing them next Friday as well?

The biggests impact on the recent poor performances of English clubs is down almost entirely IMO to the rise in financial muscle of the French league. 10 years ago English clubs could attract the best of foreign talent, some of the best french talent and hold on entirely to our own talent. None of these 3 is now true.. There are no quick fixes to this issue.

Regionisation in England is a pipedream, turkeys (the clubs) don't vote for Christmas (merger).

Ringfencing the league is a red herring since its quasi-ringfenced already as mentioned above. It would also be a revenue killer for the clubs - TV and gate receipts will fall if games are perceived to have nothing riding on them.

The only alternative is to get better at producing home grown player who can compete in Europe, we've seen some signs that it is happening. But it will take a long time and people have to be patient. Hopefully it will help the national team as well which is vital since the success of the national team is vital in maintaining and growing the game. Which could one day put us back on a financial even keel with the French.

Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

ASBO, we have a big number of players, I know we have many players playing outside SA, but even we can't fill more than 4 proper super franchises.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

That old chestnut again!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

I hear this all the time. The reality of it is just because England may have a greater pool of registered players, the reality is that the difference between amateur and proffesional rugby tends to be conditioning. That gap isnt closed by the players. Thats the backroom staff, nutrionists & physios at work. So actually you can remove a good 9700 of the registered 10k listed by the IRB playing numbers. Amateur players dont really count regardless of how many you have.

Throw in to that the Clubs particpating dont have free hands to develop players with future years in mind, and the fact that any money available to most of the English clubs goes towards keeping parity in the salary cap as apposed to club development, player development & facilities and you catch my drift.

In a nutshell Englands best players are virtually guranteed their starting places at their clubs. Then you look at the top 6 Rabbo sides and you can see that just isnt the case. I remember when the Blues had to bench Shanklin because of Robinsons and Roberts form together. he wasnt happy about it at the time as it cost him international selection and forced him to play even better to get back into thr Blues team. Squad Competition is what drives playing standards.

"Squad Competition is what drives playing standards. "

Then why is the Rabo a Mickey Mouse league

Feckless Rogue wrote:What they do need to look at is how they approach the game. Just compare the terribly unimaginative and negative all French Amlin final, with the ambition of Leinster the HC final. Only Toulouse and Clermont play with that ambition. Many other French clubs have the skill to do so but they don't. Why not?

good point although teams like Castres and Montpelier also try to play in an "attractive way". Stade Francais as well when they bother and racing is trying to move away from their forward orientated game (although it hasnt helped them this year , see games vs Cardiff and Edinburg) .

most of the teams sitting in the bottom half of the T14 play a boring low risk rugby (brive, agen, bayonne) because they found out it was the cheapest recipe for avoiding relegation. one happy exception being begles-bordeaux who just managed to survive its first season in T14 while playing soem nice attacking rugby.

Biarritz succes has always been based on defense sicne Lagisquet took over there and to be honest they have an ageing team who would have been relegated if it wasnt for Yachvili boot.

HERSH wrote:"Squad Competition is what drives playing standards. "

Then why is the Rabo a Mickey Mouse league

Because of Squad Competition. It ain't rocket science. The Mickey Mouse players play in the Pro12 and finally push the HCers off their perch. Simples.

Welshmushroom wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

I hear this all the time. The reality of it is just because England may have a greater pool of registered players, the reality is that the difference between amateur and proffesional rugby tends to be conditioning. That gap isnt closed by the players. Thats the backroom staff, nutrionists & physios at work. So actually you can remove a good 9700 of the registered 10k listed by the IRB playing numbers. Amateur players dont really count regardless of how many you have.

Throw in to that the Clubs particpating dont have free hands to develop players with future years in mind, and the fact that any money available to most of the English clubs goes towards keeping parity in the salary cap as apposed to club development, player development & facilities and you catch my drift.

In a nutshell Englands best players are virtually guranteed their starting places at their clubs. Then you look at the top 6 Rabbo sides and you can see that just isnt the case. I remember when the Blues had to bench Shanklin because of Robinsons and Roberts form together. he wasnt happy about it at the time as it cost him international selection and forced him to play even better to get back into thr Blues team. Squad Competition is what drives playing standards.

I'm not talking about registered amateur players, but registered professionals

HERSH wrote:"Squad Competition is what drives playing standards. "

Then why is the Rabo a Mickey Mouse league

It isn't, the Aviva seems to be, which is why you Normans are moaning that you don't win anything any more

Just a few things.

Ireland when for the four provinces not to match the English and French but to be financailly viable (as far as I know)
Wales and Scotland and now italy followed as they could not last financial with their 12 team league. England and France may even end up adding another two teams as they need to raise more money.

Ireland were rubbish because they could hold onto the top players as they left. Munster and now all the provinces are only letting their 2nd string players leave which has resulted in thier rise and England's fall as they get less quaility irish players.
England now loose some of their top players and if they kept them would be better. Scotland are improving as they are bring some players back while wales will fall as they loose their top players.

Cycles - Ireland are top of the cycle, Scotland, Italy and England are on the up while wales and France (losing top players to Japan) on the way down.

Also Ireland don't have many professional players outside of the 4 squads unlike most other countries so if we have bad squads we cand replace them with anyone ala connacht

Also Ireland don't have many professional players outside of the 4 squads unlike most other countries so if we have bad squads we cand replace them with anyone ala connacht

Not strictly true. Bowe has been in Wales for 3/4 years and improved there. He's only just coming back to Ulster.

Ian Humphries is a fairly decent player and he's off to the Aviva.

Irish players don't generally leave Ireland due to central contracts (and their Mammies ) otherwise the French would be tryign to snap them up

EDIT

Apologies, I read 'many' as 'any' - some of my points still stand though

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

possibly not but that is the road we've gone down, or more correctly the road we've always been on. It doesn't mean we can't have a competitive and popular domestic league and a successful international team. The Heiniken cup is merely the icing on the cake and shouldn't dictate our entire rugby structure.

Club numbers will only fall if the powerful ship off and start a year round euro league and the smaller ones are left to wilt.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

I hear this all the time. The reality of it is just because England may have a greater pool of registered players, the reality is that the difference between amateur and proffesional rugby tends to be conditioning. That gap isnt closed by the players. Thats the backroom staff, nutrionists & physios at work. So actually you can remove a good 9700 of the registered 10k listed by the IRB playing numbers. Amateur players dont really count regardless of how many you have.

Throw in to that the Clubs particpating dont have free hands to develop players with future years in mind, and the fact that any money available to most of the English clubs goes towards keeping parity in the salary cap as apposed to club development, player development & facilities and you catch my drift.

In a nutshell Englands best players are virtually guranteed their starting places at their clubs. Then you look at the top 6 Rabbo sides and you can see that just isnt the case. I remember when the Blues had to bench Shanklin because of Robinsons and Roberts form together. he wasnt happy about it at the time as it cost him international selection and forced him to play even better to get back into thr Blues team. Squad Competition is what drives playing standards.

I'm not talking about registered amateur players, but registered professionals

That does not mean they are actually any good. It also does not illustrate the standard they are playing at either. For example of many proffesional players are playing in the National Championship and not the Aviva. Instead of developing players to drive standard around half the league teams go out and sign foreigners with a eye to qualify them to play for England. Newcastle for example tried to develop talent and now are buying Scotish Internationals because they keep getting players poached. In order for talent to truely develop they need to play at the highest level. England generally have had a "need to prove yourself in the premiership" before selecting them and the top clubs in England dont exactly give the shirt to youngsters either. Sure there are some exceptions but generally given the playing numbers in England, player development is appauling. But a lot of English players are lucky if they experience league rugby let alone HC rugby which given that English clubs get a bigger representation at HC level than their celtic rivals is shocking. There is no unified approach from English club rugby. Its basically everyone for themselves for survival.

munkian wrote:

Also Ireland don't have many professional players outside of the 4 squads unlike most other countries so if we have bad squads we cand replace them with anyone ala connacht

Not strictly true. Bowe has been in Wales for 3/4 years and improved there. He's only just coming back to Ulster.

Ian Humphries is a fairly decent player and he's off to the Aviva.

Irish players don't generally leave Ireland due to central contracts (and their Mammies ) otherwise the French would be tryign to snap them up

EDIT

Apologies, I read 'many' as 'any' - some of my points still stand though

Yes, the Mammy point IS still true

beshocked wrote: Geoff let's be honest you know HC qualification is in the bag, will Connacht overtake you? Not likely.

It was in doubt up to the last weekend of the season a mere 3 years ago and Connacht are improving

Welshmushroom wrote:

beshocked wrote:No welshmushroom the attitude in the Pro12 is sit back and relax.

Auto qualification for the HC is all but guaranteed.

Understrength sides are the name of the game. You are able to rest your key players in the Pro12 because most sides do it.

"Doing an Edinburgh" is not an option for English and French clubs.

I posted elsewhere that most of Leinster's real stars like Sexton,Kearney,BOD,SOB and Heaslip only play about 6 games out of 22 in the Pro12 but played all 9 HC games.

English sides just don't have the luxury to constantly rotate because every other side puts out full strength sides because of the higher stakes of the AP.


I would fancy Saracens,Leicester,Quins and Saints over most Rabo sides. Particularly the first two.

Erm have you been watching the Rabbo this season? Because your statements here clearly indicate you have no idea what you are talking about.

Leinster have played top draw stuff regardless of it being League or europe. They managed this not because the first 15 is the best but because the backup players are also very good. Look at the top 4 in England and one thing is clear. Sure top English sides can put out good matchday 15's but when you look at the second string 15's they just are not very strong and thats when you look at the top sides let alone the mid table teams. Mallinder at the Saints basically said the same thing in a recent interview. Its fine when they can put their strongest teams out but once you cant even they struggle to compete against the best.

Also keep in mind you (Saracens) almost lost to a Italian side in the HC and probably didnt deserve to either. So as much as you would fancy your chances you clearly are also capable of pretty much losing to everyside in the league on any given day. To be fair I think you are being a little disrespectful to some of the Rabbo sides who maybe dont have the tradition that other sides have. Connacht at home for example is a match for any side including your beloved English top 4.

The truth of the matter is that for the benefit of the national sides in the Rabbo teams have to be rotated. We are already seeing the development of a lot of youngsters from Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Would Hogg for example been capped by Scotland in the last 6 Nations had he been playing the Aviva? Probably not because he would have struggled for consistent gametime. Basically everytime your first 15 is not available its should be an oppertunity to develop more players in that position. So the teams in the Rabbo who are most successful tend to be the ones with a more developed squad.

We also dont have to worry about dilluted player base. Basically we are already seeing that the standard of young players getting pro contracts is getting better as the competition is so fierce. Its the same for the Internationals who have constant battles with squad players to retain their club jerseys. English league is just filled with a bunch of journeymen, in demand english capped players (who often dont even need to earn the club shirt to wear it - except at Leicester) and a bunch of underplayed youngsters with all the focus being on short term gains.

I'm much happier that Rabbo sides are planning for the future and giving youngsters the aspiration to go on to have good international careers while teaching them the importance of working hard for the position. You can just keep your 50% buying SH imports when we are out of options (policy) and trying to qualify them for England under residency as you have at Saracens.

I've no doubt future discussions will be based around the handicap that needs to be imposed on Celtic/Italian competiting international sides when France and England stop being competitive Internationally in the 6 Nations (through a lack of their own game development)........

To be honest its poor form to start making excuses in sport and its certanly not a rugby value. I'm not exactly sure where this new influence of laying blame everywhere else is coming from but I dont like it.

Not denying Leinster have a very good back up 15. They have been able to build this up over time because of the way the Pro12 is.

I agree that the Pro12 is there to help the development of the national sides. On the other hand it means the best players play less games.


Saracens almost lost to an Italian side but crucially didn't. Fine line between almost winning and actually winning. Capable of losing to any team on the day but don't. The Welsh,Italians and Scots and Ulster have struggled in the HC vs Saracens. The only ones in the Pro12 who have found it easy going are of course Leinster and Munster.

Disrespectful? Maybe - most Pro12 sides have a point to prove against us. I don't expect Munster and Leinster to respect us particularly highly as our record vs them is poor.

The biggest danger is Leinster - they are the club everyone should try to emulate.

Do I think we rotate enough? No but it's tough when there is not auto HC qualification to fall back on for solace.

beshocked wrote:
Do I think we rotate enough? No but it's tough when there is not auto HC qualification to fall back on for solace.

So what do you think of my point earlier then? Reward placements IN HC itself with HC auto places the following year? Saracens get into quarters, Saracens have a freebie into the next year's HC? Rewarding performance and allowing a performing team to consolidate by including younger players in a less stressful following year?

Interesting idea secretfly but then you might get into the Edinburgh scenario which I don't think is particularly good.

I think ultimately we should ignore the advantages the Celtic League has. Focus on beating the likes of Clermont and Leinster.

Something needs to be done to encourage rotation though.

Welshmushroom wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Islington, that may all be true, but the fact that your talent is spread along 12 teams, doesn't help one bit either.

I think that would be true, biltong, except for taking account of the playing numbers available in all countries

I hear this all the time. The reality of it is just because England may have a greater pool of registered players, the reality is that the difference between amateur and proffesional rugby tends to be conditioning. That gap isnt closed by the players. Thats the backroom staff, nutrionists & physios at work. So actually you can remove a good 9700 of the registered 10k listed by the IRB playing numbers. Amateur players dont really count regardless of how many you have.

Throw in to that the Clubs particpating dont have free hands to develop players with future years in mind, and the fact that any money available to most of the English clubs goes towards keeping parity in the salary cap as apposed to club development, player development & facilities and you catch my drift.

In a nutshell Englands best players are virtually guranteed their starting places at their clubs. Then you look at the top 6 Rabbo sides and you can see that just isnt the case. I remember when the Blues had to bench Shanklin because of Robinsons and Roberts form together. he wasnt happy about it at the time as it cost him international selection and forced him to play even better to get back into thr Blues team. Squad Competition is what drives playing standards.

I'm not talking about registered amateur players, but registered professionals

That does not mean they are actually any good. It also does not illustrate the standard they are playing at either. For example of many proffesional players are playing in the National Championship and not the Aviva. Instead of developing players to drive standard around half the league teams go out and sign foreigners with a eye to qualify them to play for England. Newcastle for example tried to develop talent and now are buying Scotish Internationals because they keep getting players poached. In order for talent to truely develop they need to play at the highest level. England generally have had a "need to prove yourself in the premiership" before selecting them and the top clubs in England dont exactly give the shirt to youngsters either. Sure there are some exceptions but generally given the playing numbers in England, player development is appauling. But a lot of English players are lucky if they experience league rugby let alone HC rugby which given that English clubs get a bigger representation at HC level than their celtic rivals is shocking. There is no unified approach from English club rugby. Its basically everyone for themselves for survival.

To be fair England has an A team league for their Prem sides and the Championship is fully professional, the youngsters who are good enough will usually break into the first team, while the guys who aren't quite good enough "yet" will bide their time in the reserves and on loan, oh and in the Little Value Cup. I'd much rather and i'm sure the Ospreys management the same not have played Eli Walker in the HC, but because we don't have the finances to bring in any cover we had to play a second rate youngster like him.