Losing to Wales describe as "Embarrassment".

First topic message reminder :

For world's second best team Wallabies, they describing potential lost to Wales would be embarrassment according to Australian newspaper (I putting the link beneath).

What do colleague posters think about it? My mind is a bit unfair although Australia #2 87.99 and Wales #5 83.32 so because home games Australia by ranking should win by more than 1 try each game. But also compare both teams make the semi-final RWC so maybe can be a bit more closer even though "Aussies" one the last 4 matchings including important world cup playoff and not lost for five years.

"CONCERNS that the Wallabies may suffer an embarrassment similar to losing to Samoa last season and Scotland in 2009 have convinced Test selectors to force key players to back up three times in one week when the international series starts next month.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/call-of-duty-for-ambushed-wallabies-20120521-1z192.html#ixzz1vflO7DZv
"

TycroesOsprey wrote:Peter I have gone out of my way to point out its not a welsh - English thing. The fsct you keep banging that drum maked me wonder if your a bit simple? is the rhetoric too complex for you to understand? do I need to use words of fewer syllables for you? IT IS NOT ABOUT WALES AND ENGLAND.

Really?

the welsh club is beeing excluded from the premiership because the RFU want to change the rules to save Newcastle(didnt do that for London Irish I wonder why the welsh are penalised could it be London Welsh has predominantly welsh qualiified playres and have said they wont stand in the way of welsh team ambition?

This is what started the whole thing off wasn't it?

And may I point out if the RFU had had the proffessionalism and integrity to wait until after the matches were played rather than releasing it just before the game was played there might not have been such an outcry. Incompetent and malicious. This is the same RFU that couldnt keep a players report confidential? that couldnt control their teams behaviour? The organisation is barely fit for purpose of running the game.

It is as the rotherham mp said the worst run of all our major spoting bodies. Or are you a courds wearer too?[code]

I have apologised for any jobes since then and gone out of my way to point out this isnt a wales england thing. read the thread

mystiroakey wrote:no i like swansea and cardiff in our leagues- have british leagues in all sports- no dramas with that at all

But if the problem is stemming from LW being a feeder club for a big welsh club, then it shouldnt be in the english system.

Point is i waqant to get to the root of the issue- You are the only one saying the problem with LW is that it is welsh- i am trying to work out how that is a problem- and the only problem i can see is that the english system has a responsibility to produce english talent, and if a club in the prem is only producing welsh talent but when the players get good they go to a big welsh club- then its not really working.

In fooball i am happy to say that the prem should produce british talent(over just english), but that is due to wales and scotland not being competitive leagues compared to the EPL

A british league was propsed when the game went proffesional can you guess which union blocked it?

Tycoes i am happy to discuss the wlaes v england thing- do you think its right to have a welsh team in the AP as a feeder club for a the ospreys?

Do you think that is the root of the problem?

I just want that one question answered thats all and then we can nip it in the bud!

TycroesOsprey wrote:And may I point out if the RFU had had the proffessionalism and integrity to wait until after the matches were played rather than releasing it just before the game was played there might not have been such an outcry. Incompetent and malicious. This is the same RFU that couldnt keep a players report confidential? that couldnt control their teams behaviour? The organisation is barely fit for purpose of running the game.

It is as the rotherham mp said the worst run of all our major spoting bodies. Or are you a courds wearer too?[code]

You see, you doing it again. What has the RFU board got to do with player behaviour doing the WC? Nothing. You keep putting these ridiculous digs and it undermines any relevant point you try and add (much like the premiership being "dominated by foreigners").

An MP (who wants to get re-elected) slammed an organisation that annoyed a lot of his constituents? Shocking. Let's run out and protest the RFU NOW!

It's not very complicated. There are minimum standards required for promotion to the premiership. Pretty much all professional leagues have them (and some semi-professional, such as the Welsh premiership). That's not a problem. The MSC are not even being contested. London Welsh have issued a statement saying they believe they meet the MSC, not that the MSC is unfair.

So the only issue I can see is that some of the current clubs may not meet all these criteria (although I'm still waiting on details of which and why). However, as kiwi pointed out, it's usual for any criteria that is brought in is not applied retrospectively (he cited his personal situation with immigration). So that's not really an issue either. The appeal will be based on that LW believe they meet the criteria, THE INDEPENDENT AUDITORS who reviewed their application did not.

mystiroakey wrote:Tycoes i am happy to discuss the wlaes v england thing- do you think its right to have a welsh team in the AP as a feeder club for a the ospreys?

Do you think that is the root of the problem?

I just want that one question answered thats all and then we can nip it in the bud!

I would rather LW had joined the WRU fully and gone into the premiership with an eye to moving into the celtic league when it was proposed. I was an exile living in Richmond married to a girl from Windsor(yeah Im a well known English hater ) at the time so LW was the club I naturally went to (quins as well). When that option was blocked then I wanted to see LW move through the system as best they could.

As far as the ospreys welsh link (and I believe cardiff also have a similar deal in place now as well) I dont see an issue, Wasps and the Ospreys have a similar deal and I dont have a problem with the ospreys developing talent for wasps or england if tehy are farmed out.

Also given how many welsh qualified players are in every team in the premiershipChampionship, mostly young guys who couldnt get a contract in wales and who headed to the English leagues for their development I fail to see the problem. LW do try and get dual qualified players instead of purely english qualified but they do also conform to the requirements of match day squads even if some of the players have dual qualification. In effect they are developing playerss for both nations. since they are dual qualified surely thats fair enough.

Do I think its at the root of the problem? No actually I dont, the root of the problem has been the growing inequality in the game in England and the protection of the vested interests at the top of the game. I do think that the RFU is mismanaged and given their recent series of disasters Im not alone in that. However I do think that LW identity as a Welsh clulb in the English system is somthing that grates with many people down at HQ. However they treated Rotyherham with a similar level of crassness so I dont think this is a welsh thing. I just think its added some flavour to the discussion.

Look people disagree, theres people who think its right to cut taxes for the rich when were skint as a nation, or to fire people because you dont like them, or to carry out an impartial role whilst texting hundreds of times to an interested party. Some people think all of these things are ok as well. Some of us dont.

ok thanks Tycroes. Basically my point is that i find it abit hypocritical for you on the one hand to say the prem is full of forigners (and that that is supposedly a bad thing) but on the other hand want LW to be in the prem but produce forign talent.

I also find it hard to understand that the rfu are so bad even though they are helping the world game more than any other. You gotta give some credit even if they have obvious flaws

I know you know your stuff and i personally have no probelm with your little england digs- Your a typical passionate welsh fan, it goes with the terriotory

Ah I dont think Ive ever actually complained that the AP was full of foreigners have I?

Im also not sure how the RFU help the game more than any other? They have a history dating back to the inception of the international game of not trying to do things for the greater good. Thats why they signed TV deals seperate to the other nations for the six nations?

dont the rfu give way more of its tv share to developing countries than any other?

it is also a league that has more forigners than others- that aids the game as well.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Ah I dont think Ive ever actually complained that the AP was full of foreigners have I?

Im also not sure how the RFU help the game more than any other? They have a history dating back to the inception of the international game of not trying to do things for the greater good. Thats why they signed TV deals seperate to the other nations for the six nations?

Well without the RFU there wouldnt be the sport as we know it all, but I gues that doesnt fit your agenda does it

you can keep screaming agenda and having a tantrum peter or you could contribute to the discussion in a rational and sensible way. Ive outlined my points to Myst in a fair and balanced way. Your still beating a race drum get a grip.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Peter I have gone out of my way to point out its not a welsh - English thing. The fsct you keep banging that drum maked me wonder if your a bit simple? is the rhetoric too complex for you to understand? do I need to use words of fewer syllables for you? IT IS NOT ABOUT WALES AND ENGLAND.

If your happy to see inequality and the protection of vested interests at the expense of fair play then thats up to you., To call me an internerd for expressing an opinion contrary to yours is an example of your broken morality in this issue.

I am supported in my view bu clubs fans, players national captains, MP's and the vast majority of fair minded people. YOu are in favour of a closed shop where only a fews interests are served at the expense of the greater good of the clubs as a whole. The RFU have had their bluff called on the rank hypocrisy of their organisation. They have still not provided the details of the decision to LW to facilitate the appeal thats how organised they are.

If its not then you would have a more rational and balanced view, rather than cherry picking to suit your arguments and banding out cheap jibes and cliches with nothing to back them up.
Do you think the Irish Scots Welsh Italians and Sanzars are morally repugnant for having an entirely closed shop in their top leagues?
People like to be outraged, especially when theres a pantomime boo boy to blame it on.



Biltong can you split crud this and put it in the thread it deserves to be in?

This thread is in such a mess PSW, it is easier to lock, there are so many different arguments, I have no idea where to begin with what is ligit and what not.

Let the thread live i say. Its a random one - how about we use it as the new wales v england bickering thread- its what it is!!!

TycroesOsprey wrote:Anyway the comment that the RFU are the worst run of our major sporting bodies made me smile and it was an englishman who said that.

The mask is slipping again

you raise a good point amongst your hyperbole, However the Rabo has been clearly defined as a closed shop and the rules are applied fairly and equally to all.

However the disbanding of the Warriors to protect the vested interests of Swansea, llanellli cardiff and newport was ,morally repugnant and I think you would find quite a lot of valleys boys who would agree. We are only now beggining to sort out the mess created by trying to favour one vested interest rather than relying upon a good olld fashioned sense of decency and fair play.

Maybe you should think about that. Protecting vested interests in rugby is bad for the game. It was bad for the game in wales andf is bad for the game in England. Defence of inequality in any area of life is to be quite frank morally repugnant.

mystiroakey wrote:Let the thread live i say. Its a random one - how about we use it as the new wales v england bickering thread- its what it is!!!

How about we rename it Tycroes' One Man Stand Against Moral Repugnance (cue Coldplay's 'Fix You' being broadcast during a montage of tyrannical regimes being overthrown)

biltongbek wrote:This thread is in such a mess PSW, it is easier to lock, there are so many different arguments, I have no idea where to begin with what is ligit and what not.

How about you delete everything except "Wales is an embaressment" that should calm things down a bit

(Ps thats a joke not an attempt to wind up)



Im really split on the whole promotion vs relegation argument. I completely support the efforts to ensure that clubs coming up do so with a sustainable model, and those that are making investments tier are encouraged to do so without fear they will be bankrupted by the short termism of others.
I support The principle that rugby clubs should try to get permanent grounds of a standard befitting the league they are in, I also recognise for many finding the funding to do that is difficult and shifting the goal posts overnight on the top division clubs would have left several unable to meet those conditions and forced a reduce d premiership. To be honest the RFU may well have done this (as they did with professionaling the second tier a couple of years back) to force what they have quite openly stated they want, a reduced and ring fenced premiership which they control more fully as is the case in every other major union bar France.
The system we have i9nstead is a halfway house, and LW seem to have come unstuck as a borderline case. The rules arent great, and as with everythuing theres going to be some grey areas. But theya re there, and they are signed up to by everyone. its ridiculous to suggest that the RFU should suddenly overturn those rules just to avoid what ...one team that frankly doenst have the resources to move from its traditional home for a season and get relegated over retaining a club that in terminal decline but has supplied half the Leicester tigers squad. Either way the league loses frankly, which is why the RFUS acted to make sure bristol get promoted next year....unless in the mean time

If the RFU were told that LW hadnt met the criteria thats not their fault. The criteria may be superficially unfair, but they were set that way to balance the needs of keeping existing clubs viable and to try and ensure clubs being given premiership status had viability and wouldnt be a further burden on the league which was and is already carrying a big chunk of dead wood. Things are improving but its a long and difficult process and theres been a number of clubs go to the wall along the way, thats not good for anyone.
The wailing and gnashing over this is coming from a lack of understanding of the wider context of these rules and that many people just enjoy being angry and getting on their high horse, of course the LW fans are upset now, they all supported the move to Oxford before and thought it was a wonderful prospect right? Reminds me of the Sarries fans ripping up their season tickets.

What this whole sage is really highlighting is the inevitability of a split in PRL and those clubs that have managed to get themselves in some kind of sustainable shape doing a deal with the RFU to split off and create a reduced top division, that may or may not have promotion.

It may be hard on LW but wheichever way things went it would be harsh. They are lucky to have a window at all, many would close that if they had the choice and looking at what thats doen for the viability of the professional club and international game elsewhere you can understand why.

If it goes to franchise LW may get a chance to make their case again, if they have a model that makes them worthy on and off the field then good luck to them. But as it is they havent, they are barely good enough on the pitch and wont be able to sustain that even with the welfare payments from Sky, the RFU and other Jeff clubs ... the very same people that are currently to boo boys.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Defence of inequality in any area of life is to be quite frank morally repugnant.

Up until your neighbour demands the right to sleep with your wife.

Finally some sense even if I disagree,

If the Aviva is to be a closed shop then the RFU need to come out and say it and go to a franchise system. I would have no problem wth that. It will cause a serious division in the game in England and if the civil war we went through in wales over the same issue is anything to go by it will be bitter and drawn out.

As far as LW's eligibility well that will be decided over the summer. I will say from my conversations in the clubhouse (although I havent been there since the RWC as Im back in Wales these days) and the odd phone call and email is that People would rather be in Richmond but as thats out of the question, Oxford is 40 mins away down the Motorway so its no big deal. So the fans are supportive of the move even if they realise it isnt ideal.

Personally I think the priomacy of tenancy issue is a smoklescreen espescially when you consider that Sale have been given dispensation to move from Edgely park for next season despite no primacy of tenure.

The RFU don't want a ring-fenced premiership. The PRL do.

The rfu need to really sort out 2 proper divisions. Both divisions need to be up to the same ';scratch' and the same minimum standard. The RFU need to loan these clubs the money to get them to that level. Once these sides have paid the money back and are self sufficent we can look at getting a 3rd division going, under the same principle.

This would work much better if we had a full on british league as well- Together we are much stronger than individually

Most interesting suggestion I've seen is Cumbrian's in here

https://www.606v2.com/t29649-has-the-jeff-any-future-in-its-current-form

yep just read it- cumbrians is ok and he mentions that he wants to get all teams up to scratch before we look furthar and that there should be a fund to help the clubs infastructure. However i dont think england need a regional split league. Promotion and relegation within proper divisions is the best way to increase quailty of club sport