Ireland V All Blacks - Teams Announced and Matchday Thread

[clivemcl]

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND TEAM

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
11 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht) *
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)


NZ Team

15 Israel Dagg,
14 Zac Guildford,
13 Conrad Smith,
12 Sonny Bill Williams,
11 Julian Savea,
10 Dan Carter,
9 Aaron Smith,
8 Kieran Read,
7 Richie McCaw (capt),
6 Victor Vito,
5 Sam Whitelock,
4 Brodie Retallick,
3 Owen Franks,
2 Andrew Hore,
1 Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Ali Williams, Adam Thomson, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith.

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Jeez guys, Trimble is 27 and is being written off as yesterdays man. Some people are obviously depressed about todays result and have pretty short memories. As for Rodders on Madigan, Gilroy and Kearney, you might well have a point. The selection of Zebo shows the problem of throwing young inexperienced players in at the deep end. Sure, he looked dangerous on the ball a couple of times but positionally and defensively he was dreadful. His lack of those skills which is evidenced enough for Munster were exposed today generally, but exposed even further with the performance of the centre pairings inside him. I think we need to stick with BOD-Earls with Zebo for these three tests. Zebo needs games and the steep learning curve will only help him improve. We need to have more of a look at 12-13 channel and let it develop. What are the options if we change? Bring back D'Arcy, or bring Cave in? Even as a Cave advocate I wasn't aware he came on until he should have ben yellow carded.

[Rocky]

McFadden isn't a winger and his positioning and general defensive has been exposed on a number of occasions, how has he kept Kearney Jr out of the team at Leinster? Sticking Trimble at 12 definitely isn't the answer, if we were going to do that would we not be better with Spence who at least has played there a bit over the last two years? I remember watching Spence-Macken/Griffen partnership for the U20's, that wasn't lacking physicality. What are people's opinions of Bowe as a 13? He is an intelligent player and has good strength? Or would that just be a case of moving one of our best players out of position?

[asoreleftshoulder]

I think a lot of this is just panic after a bad defeat,we all know that no matter who plays where things won't improve until Kidney goes.He no longer even seems to have any support from the IRFU judging by their reluctance to hire a new attack coach.

I feel sorry for Les Kiss,he has to study the All Black attack and then coach the team to stop it,then he has to study the AB defence and coach the team to get around it.The man mustn't sleep.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

The problem is that people are saying that Declan Kidney is too conservative etc etc etc. The problem for Irish rugby is that, despite the many good things they do and continue to do, the IRFU are even more conservative. After watching Australia I was thinking what a Robbie Deans Irish side would have looked like for the past few years. There was a guy that effectively wrote off a couple of season to build a team for the future. He didn't quite pull it off in the World Cup, but is there any rugby nation that consistently overachieves more than the Aussies in rugby union?

[rodders]

OK just been for a run and I've calmed down now...... ...... no need to panic, we can still win the series......

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Rodders you were a man in need of a hug.

[Thomond]

There is a lot and I mean a lot of over reacting here. Some of it has some truth a lot of it is hyperbole.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I think we should retain the BOD-Earls partnership and I have said so many times I don't think Earls is a centre (and still don't but he is the best option we have ATM-Cave was very poor.)

I am just going to throw this straight out there......

I believe we would have scored 1/2 more tries, if we had quicker ball in the first 30 minutes our guys would have got over the gainline and possibly manufactured scores.

In the most condensed form I can make

1) We do not have big backs at the level required
2) Our backs will not get over the gain line against set defences of bigger men
3) We need to play a pace game due to point 2
4) To play a pace game we need to have quicker ball
5) For quicker ball at this moment we need to play reddan

I think with quick ball we would have got over in the first 30minutes as we were varying the attack, we just gave the AB's too much time to re-form, reorganise and fan out.

The more set the defence, the less effective our backs will be until we can get some big backs who also have skill

KIDNEY! PLEASE START REDDAN-SEXTON

[rodders]

Rodders you were a man in need of a hug.

I was a man in need of a kick in the bollix.....

[rodders]

Team for next week:

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 Earls
12 O'Driscoll
11 Zebo
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 McLaughlin
5 Ryan
4 O'Callaghan
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

Bench: Fitzpatrick, Cronin, Touhy, O'Mahoney, Murray, ROG, McFadden.

In Deccie we trust.

BELIEVE

[Thomond]

Why would you drop Deccie Fitz? O'Mahony I can understand (disagree with though) and DOC?! How much have you drank?

[rodders]

Thomond I think Fitpatrick did really well, fantastic even, today but if Ross is fit I'd go with him, Deccie isn't fit enough for 80min so I'd give him 30min from the bench....I'd like to see him and Ross rotated as neither are that fit.

Tuohy didn't have great game, did ok but I'd start DOC and use Touhy of the bench.

Again O'Mahoney did well but I'd just like to see McLaughlin at 6.

Lets face it we were tanked so we need to make changes...and the options are limited.

[FitzStephen]

That was a hard game to watch (and I am still seething) but I would say that NZ’s win was built on the first half lead. And every one of those points came from Irish mistakes - misfeed by Murray at scrum; Earls and McFadden tackling same man; Kearney taking it into Savea’s tackle and getting turned over; Murray kicking too long to Guildford. Then in the second half we have O'Driscoll offloading to nobody; Cave being ignored by Zebo for Conrad Smith’s try - the list goes on to excess. Anyone else think that a backs coach might have helped?

[Thomond]

A backs coach would have definitely helped. I don't know about Cave talking to Zebo. It seemed to be a bit of a no win situation, if you come in to help, it goes out through the hands and results in a score in the corner if you don't it's a try because there's a big gap.

[FitzStephen]

Maybe you're right, but Cave would've been used to calling trimble in and letting him take ball and all. Zebo was looking the other direction.

[FitzStephen]

That said, I'd start Zebo again next week and O'Mahony and Murray. I dont think our bollix back play was Murray's fault and nor was it Sexton's. Hate to say it but it was O'Driscoll and Earls partnership. Earls was too keen to get to the gainline and BOD is not the greatest passer of the ball so he couldn't find the pass to the outside backs. He was left either shovelling it on to Earls anyway or taking the tackle himself. Conrad Smith must have been delighted. Have Paddy wallace and Earls ever played together in the centre?

[rodders]

The backline alignment is still all wrong, everyone is far too deep starting with Sexton and that makes it too easy for the defence. BOD threw too many silly offloads but those passes are going to hand at Leinster because there are always two or 3 support runners. For Ireland the ball carriers are too often just isolated.

There are so many issues with the attack - slow ruck ball, poor angles, no support runners, people running the wrong lines... honestly you'd think these guys have never met each other before...I have no idea what we actually do in training .

Like when we went for the push over try from the maul, then Murray decides to spin the ball wide and throws it to BOD, who isn't expecting it and is isolated...then he throws a silly offload which leads to a try up the other end... the whole thing is shambolic at times and its been this way for 3 seasons now.

[The Great Aukster]

The backline alignment is still all wrong, everyone is far too deep starting with Sexton and that makes it too easy for the defence. BOD threw too many silly offloads but those passes are going to hand at Leinster because there are always two or 3 support runners. For Ireland the ball carriers are too often just isolated.

There are so many issues with the attack - slow ruck ball, poor angles, no support runners, people running the wrong lines... honestly you'd think these guys have never met each other before...I have no idea what we actually do in training .

Like when we went for the push over try from the maul, then Murray decides to spin the ball wide and throws it to BOD, who isn't expecting it and is isolated...then he throws a silly offload which leads to a try up the other end... the whole thing is shambolic at times and its been this way for 3 seasons now.

Like I said Rodders the backs were shambolic

I think it was just prior to that play that Ireland turned down three points for a kick to touch. Sure NZ were 20 points in front but there was plenty of time left and Ireland didn't particularly look like crossing the whitewash.

[rodders]

Fair play Aukster you did.... there's so many problems it's hard to know where to start.....

[asoreleftshoulder]

Fair play Aukster you did.... there's so many problems it's hard to know where to start.....

We all know where to start it's where to stop that's the problem

[Big Mac Michael]

That said, I'd start Zebo again next week and O'Mahony and Murray. I dont think our bollix back play was Murray's fault and nor was it Sexton's. Hate to say it but it was O'Driscoll and Earls partnership. Earls was too keen to get to the gainline and BOD is not the greatest passer of the ball so he couldn't find the pass to the outside backs. He was left either shovelling it on to Earls anyway or taking the tackle himself. Conrad Smith must have been delighted. Have Paddy wallace and Earls ever played together in the centre?

Sorry did you just say BOD ISN'T THE GREATEST PASSER OF A BALL!!!!
What are you smoking?
That'll be all.

[rodders]

Fair play Aukster you did.... there's so many problems it's hard to know where to start.....

We all know where to start it's where to stop that's the problem

[aucklandlaurie]

Morning folks,

Big night last night, great to see three new All Blacks make the step up.
I applaud McCaw and carter for taking those first three penalties as that was instumental in how the game evolved from thereon, especially in so far as any breakdowns in the Ireland half of the field.

Ireland did turn up to play, dont go calling for selection blood, but I think you are entitled to ask Les Kiss," What exactly have you done to address the defensive and attack requirements of this team?"

[rodders]

Have to say the AB's were magnificant today .... obviously the first reaction when you lose is to critic your own side and try and identify the things within your control .... Ireland just weren't good enough and played into NZ's hands but the ABs attacking play was sensational, they should have won by more. They are an awesome side and we need a massive improvement to make the final two test competitive, let alone have a chance to win.

Well played NZ

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

The key for me is if a team is good with ball in hand it is probably a good idea to not give the ball to them. Like, you know, kicking to them a lot aimlessly. Some of Sexton's kicking wasn't good to say the least but O'Gara and Reddan should be sorted out just like the Provisionals did to Shergar.* The possession was about 58-42 yet it seemed like so much more.

*Allegedly

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I have to say again I thought we looked better in the first 20 mins attack wise than we have in quite a while, against the best team in the world. I liked how there was good balance between passing/running/kicking and good option taking. yes the ball was slow and we weren't penetrating through enough but it was encouraging I thought.

Rodders- I think your team is a tad knee jerk, wait till tomorrow man and we won't hold the DOC selection against ya chin up big guy

Serious stuff from the blacks who started rusty but showed just how clinical they are, christ it's like perfect motion as soon as their is a linebreak the rest of the team all know exactly what to do and where to be......almost like........Leinster......

[rodders]

OK ...... I admit it...DOC was a kneejerk call...

Agree Hookie, the opposition can't attack without the ball... the poor tactical kicking and unforced handling errors were a killer....you just can't cough up posession against teams this good. That is something within our control.

Lets hope we can find a few more gears next week....

[Rava]

Rodders I can't believe you picked a team with DOC starting. FFS man we have spent the best part of two weeks discussing why he shouldn't even be on tour. As anonymous as Tuohy was, he was more effective than DOC was.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah lets keep DOC out please!!

Does anyone else think that Ireland should be made play pre-planned phases for maybe 4 phases off set piece ball as we aren't doing well at heads up/decision making rugby

If we had 4 set plays that consisted of all 15 players knowing their exact roles for 4 phases be it a lineout or scrum

[rodders]

OK OK back up the truck! no DOC!

Pete I give up man, I really do..... Kidney doesn't do 1st phase attacks, I recall Horgan saying that recently. Our ball retention and tactical nouse in key positions just isn't there to play an effective multiphase game right now though....

It can't all be pinned on Kidney but there is something seriously wrong when guys like Sexton, SOB and Kearney are playing so differently for Ireland than they are for their province.

[Standulstermen]

I genuinely feel for les kiss. Our defence was pretty good up until he got landed the attack job aswell. Really Deccie or perhaps more importantly the IRFU stand indicted of allowing the situation to develop where we only have 1 coach to cover defence and attack.

My team for next week would be

Healy
Best
Fitz/Ross
Ryan
Tuohy- needs to be better but like Zebo should start two tests.
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Reddan- this change is so important
Sexton
Earls- Zebo should start the third test for me. Won't give up on him he needs the games.
BOD
Cave- have we taken him all that way to not start him in one game. I'm not giving up on earls here but he deserves a shot. If he doesn't take it then earls back in next time
Trimble- dropped McFadden on account of not knowing where the bejesus he is supposed to specialise.
Kearney

[munster-abu]

thanks bud, congrats on winning the H cup

im delighted with the team, about time kidney started to pick the form players. Bod will play 12, even doh he will wear 13??
and would o brien be better at 6 and Pom at 7?
cant wait for the game now, pitty ross didnt make it.
EIRE ABU

ps ireland by 3

Welcome back to the boards pal!

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I must say that while I have been hugely against Earls starting at 13 and I still don't think he is a natural and still believe he is better on the wing or 15; he and BOD together looked like they have potential. There were moments where the pair linked nicely and for most of the game the pair along with Sexton and SOB had SBW covered fairly well.

I know I am flogging a dead horse but considering their size and strengths/weakness's I'd expect them to improve with quicker ball

[aucklandlaurie]

I must say that while I have been hugely against Earls starting at 13 and I still don't think he is a natural and still believe he is better on the wing or 15; he and BOD together looked like they have potential. There were moments where the pair linked nicely and for most of the game the pair along with Sexton and SOB had SBW covered fairly well.

I know I am flogging a dead horse but considering their size and strengths/weakness's I'd expect them to improve with quicker ball

Yes, for most of the game Earls,BOD,sexton and SOB had Sonny Bill well covered , only thing is that it left Israel Dagg free to create mayhem.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I must say that while I have been hugely against Earls starting at 13 and I still don't think he is a natural and still believe he is better on the wing or 15; he and BOD together looked like they have potential. There were moments where the pair linked nicely and for most of the game the pair along with Sexton and SOB had SBW covered fairly well.

I know I am flogging a dead horse but considering their size and strengths/weakness's I'd expect them to improve with quicker ball

Yes, for most of the game Earls,BOD,sexton and SOB had Sonny Bill well covered , only thing is that it left Israel Dagg free to create mayhem.

Completely agree. And what I found so amazingly refreshing about the Kiwi's was that they had originally thought run at Earls and Sexton and BOD and gaps/offloads will appear but when that wasn't working they looked to see where we had left the space, found it, exploited it.

Personally I think that is outstanding reading of the game from whoever it was (Hansen/Carter/Smith/Dagg) and it stretched us badly (see Savea's first try albeit that was off a counterattack.)

[aucklandlaurie]

Pete
This would have been the topic of discussion last week when there was talk of O'Driscoll playing 12, especially when the conversation went "na Na he will definitely be wearing the 13 jersey"...

Personally I thought Sonny Bill played a good game for a guy marking three players. and on not one occasion did he get isolated , and give up a penalty for holding on.. He is a very very good rugby player.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah he really is it's just how subtle you guys are though because even when you identified that he wasn't doing what he normally does (breaking the line or getting in those offloads-albeit he had two peachy ones!) you guys still went back to him to keep us honest and make sure we didn't shift our numbers to Dagg and Smith further out.

It's good sensible, tactical rugby.

I was very impressed with Smith too what do you guys make of him?

[aucklandlaurie]

Pete
What its actually about is bringing the fringe of the opposition defensive line into the inside of our centre thus always leaving the long ball or the extra man as attacking options.

[Biltong]

Don't know if I have congratulated you yet, Laurie, but your team was simply fluent yesterday. It seems the one thing the All Blacks never struggle with is running with ball in hand and looking for a support runner.

[aucklandlaurie]

Cheers biltong

Dan Carter did a Morne Steyn in the first twenty minutes of the AB /Ireland game, kicked penalties from all over Irelands half, just put that bit of caution/hesitation into the Irish forwards at the breakdown, it was just that second that gave the ABs thier first advantage, Every South African from Naas Botha to Steyn would have been proud.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

The way I see it was they generally left themselves two avenues of attack and we were so concerned about marshalling Williams that we forgot about how many other good strike runners you have. SBW always drew a centre and one other be it Sexton or Best covering across or the other centre perhaps. We left too much space outwide, maybe we should have put less into some rucks so we could have covered the men a bit more but could we have got there if we hadn't tried to slow the ball up? i think not.

[rodders]

I'm sure I read somewhere this morning that Earls is out next week with a pectoral injury...can't find the source now though....

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Biltong- Just while you are here. Your team provided me with a moment of delight yesterday and I wanted to thank you! DeVilliers putting Tuilagi on his back with one of his carries warmed my heart a lot. It also was awesome to see the S.African's ploughing into the S.Africans who play for England!

rodders-
Yeah I heard he has a shoulder injury? Think it is Brendan's piece in the indo. Fitzpatrick looks shot too

[aucklandlaurie]

it can be a hard one at times, but one of the most efficient ways is to just stick your Number 7 in front of the problem man (in this case SBW) then no one else in the team has to have their concentration disrupted, The first thing that cracks in a defensive line is concentration.

[rodders]

I guess that means we will be looking at D'arcy and BOD in the centre then. I can see D'arce struggling against Sonny Bill unfortunately.

Trimble will shore up that right wing channel though.

If Fitzpatrick and Ross are both out then we may as well cancel the game...the scrums will be a massacre. Seriously.

Fitzpatrick was a huge plus yesterday. Did brilliantly in the scrums and put in a huge hit on Sonny Bill. The IRFU and Ulster need to really work at getting him fit and up to speed.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Sorry Rodders but I've looked at all of Savea's tries a few times now and none of them were a result of McFadden making a mistake. Yes they were on his wing but they were not his fault.

Laurie that is a bit of a quick fix tbh, it obviously wouldn't work in scrums or full linouts and SOB was probably our best player we need him at te breakdown not making the tackles our midfield should be making. Completely understand covering across et al but we couldn't employ a man marking system that strictly, I know Worsley did it to roberts for one game however and it worked well

[sean.c]

According to the Sky Sports news app the injuries are:
-Keith Earls: Pectoral muscle injury-Definitely out
-Cian Healy: Shoulder injury-Possibly out
-Declan Fitzpatrick : Gluetal muscle strain-Possibly out

Can't post a link as its from an app, but I'm sure they have it somewhere on their website.

EDIT:http://m.skysports.com/article/rugbyunion//7804465

[Taylorman]

Healy didnt look good. He will be missed if hes out...

[rodders]

Pete they were all McFaddens fault.... the first one maybe he couldn't have done much but second one for sure he got sucked in and went for the wrong man and the 3rd was the same. If the winger comes in he has to take man and ball, otherwise he needs to stay wide and trust the covering defenders to take the man inside.

Jeebus christ sean we are feiced if those 3 are out

[sean.c]

I know 20% of our best 15 which got hammered by a team playing their first match in nearly 8 months. And they were three of the better players too (IMO). Things don't look good for the next match.

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