Ireland v New Zealand 2nd Test Live Match Thread

[Pal Joey]

First topic message reminder :

Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362

Current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain.

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith
[/quote]

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

[rodders]

Agree with that Notch....

Look lads I'm emotional here, gutted... take the choice of vernacular and superlatives with a pinch of salt...

It was a magnificant performance for 75min but I'm bitterly disappointed with the result... we let that one slip, I just can't see it any other way. Sorry.

[Notch]

He's been great for Ireland for a while, Bestie. There was one lineout I remember which went over the jumper. Our lineout in general was quite good mind. He's so physical and committed though, a real tough character.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

hyperbole maybe

Then name a better one.

[rodders]

Bestie had massive game again...but he wasn't the only one... Healy was monstrous, as was SOB again...

Donnacha Ryan was my pick of the Irish players actually... he had a phenomenal game and along with Touhy showed there is life beyond O'Connell....... if someone would take the bloody restarts!

[rodders]

Kevin McLaughlin too, brilliant display from him and young O'Mahoney had a real impact too from the bench. Heaslip was close to his best. BOD was heroic as usual but that kick...

Loads of positives but we already new we had quality players...we need some results to show for it.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Healy was superb. SOB was excellent, though I thought McLaughlin was the best of the back row. The second rows were good, though I'm not sure Touhy is quite up to international level. Good in close quarters but I didn't really see him carry effectively. Mike Ross had probably his best game in an Irish shirt. Murray was hugely improved. His distribution was cleverer and quicker, but not necessarily quick enough. Sexton's kicking was better, defence solid and ran better. Still some of his choices are poor. Darcy's performance was his best in green for two years. BOD was much improved on last week, but still has a tendency to kick away very cheap ball and look for offloads that aren't there. The wings were disappointing, though McFaddan at least did ok in defence. Trimble again showed his weakness when the ball is kicked over his head and he has to chase back. Kearney was ok, but ran down a few too many blind allies. A quick summation of my view of the performances.

[SecretFly]

We're all gutted. I said earlier this was perhaps the most emotional game for me in quite a number of years.... My heart was fluttering in my chest, my body was taut as I tried to will the final few minutes to my command.

I'm not smiling, I'm not laughing...I'm not happy. I'm hopeful. That is again a damn sight more than I have been in a while. But as I think everyone alluded to here - it WILL NEED the same effort, will and clarity of purpose again next week to mean anything to me.

So in a sense, Rodders, you're gutted - I'm in limbo. My mood will be determined by next week. Maybe the word is numb - I'm numb for now.

[mystiroakey]

maybe it was hyperboyle- or maybe i was agreeing with you.

but anyway the best irish performance that i can remember was brian odrsicall 2011 6 nations v england. obviously i am abit biased and i didnt watch all of todays game

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

maybe it was hyperboyle- or maybe i was agreeing with you.

but anyway the best irish performance that i can remember was brian odrsicall 2011 6 nations v england. obviously i am abit biased and i didnt watch all of todays game

I don't give praise too lightly and am hard to please, though not as much as Rodders it seems! I can't remember a better performance certainly by anyone under Kidney.

[rodders]

Massive game from Healy...Mike Ross too.

In fairness the pack played very well last week too.

The main difference this week is we didn't turn over as much soft possession and thus conceded less points.

Fitzpatrick going off last week cost us our scrum platform and any chance of winning.

The maul and using the pick and go worked well for us this week too. Better ball retention. Better shape in defence.

[rodders]

Australia blow it as well...feel better now.....

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well there you go.. like I said, the best teams will not give up the victory no matter what.

[sean.c]

25-23 to Australia full time!

[rodders]

Well there you go.. like I said, the best teams will not give up the victory no matter what.

Fine margins Rory. Its about belief and composure. Two teams had it today and two didn't. Unfortunately we were in the latter category.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

My reaction:

Healy- Simply immense, couple of handling errors but great carrying, great scrummaging, great defence.
Best- Really good on the floor and in the choke tackles. His defence was very, very good too. One overthrow but pretty good showing.
Ross- I thought he was poor, his scrummaging side was the weaker of the two. Looked slow at getting into rucks giving Kiwis a chance to get in.
Ryan- I though he was our best player. So aggressive. Great around the park and in the lineout he was pretty good too. His tackling at times was huge.
Tuohy- The scrum improved when he came off. Good showing in the lineout, powerful in defence too. Needs to carry more.
McL- Was good. His defence is outstanding. Good in the rucks but could have offered more going forward.
SOB- Becoming very very good on the floor and competed very well. Some good carries. Could do with seeing him out in midfield attacking more. One of our best players.
Heaslip- His best game in ages. Serious defence and work at the breakdown. Made some good carries too.
Murray- Huge improvement on last week but still a little slow and not organising the back of the ruck. Like I said an improvement but Reddan came on and was quicker.
Sexton- Really good game. Great defence and kicking. Ran the backs well and kicked his goals well. Controlled the game more than last week.
Trimble- Felt he was pretty anonymous. Didn't get on the ball that much. Could well be low on confidence. His wing was targeted off restarts.
Darcy- A good game I felt nothing too major but he dealt with SBW who again didn't make his breaks/offloads. Hard defence and didn't kill any of our attacks.
BOD- Really good game, looked threatening with the ball and his defence while he lost yards a lot it resulted in slowing up ball a lot. Will be gutted about the result.
McFadden- Played pretty well, no defensive errors. Ran very hard and some good lines.
Kearney- Again wish he'd entered the line more and been used in attack more. Very solid and strong in the tackle.

Other:
Scrum wasn't as good as last week
Some line blips
Restarts were still very poor
Quicker ball than last week while still not quick enough
Great intensity
Great defence
Attack was very positive at times
BOD worked well as a crash option when necessary
Positive bench impact
Need to bring wingers in more

Very proud of the lads, gutted we didn't get a result.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Yep. Of course the welsh have every right to feel gutted, the same as us, but they are being absolutely ridiculous. I get in trouble for telling them not to blame the referee. Yet I feel the exact same way about any referee decisions that went against us in the NZ game. That wasn't what lost us the game. Some of them are really making these forums difficult.

[Biltong]

Some of them are really making these forums difficult.

exactly why I took a few days break, sometimes it is necessary to step away from it for a while.

[rodders]

Any comments on Sexton at 13 and BOD at 12?

Seemed to work well but I wouldn't be in favour of starting with ROG, however well he played.

Next week I'd go with the same side but start Zebo and Trimble on the wings....maybe start Reddan. Murray played better but his service was still slow at times.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Some of them are really making these forums difficult.

exactly why I took a few days break, sometimes it is necessary to step away from it for a while.

Well it is absolutely shocking behaviour. They need to get over themselves, we were just as gutted with our loss FFS.

Really, there have been too many people that are taking "breaks" or leaving these forums recently.

[SecretFly]

Some of them are really making these forums difficult.

exactly why I took a few days break, sometimes it is necessary to step away from it for a while.

Well it is absolutely shocking behaviour. They need to get over themselves, we were just as gutted with our loss FFS.

Really, there have been too many people that are taking "breaks" or leaving these forums recently.

What's going on Rory? Something on another thread?

[asoreleftshoulder]

No we can't start with RoG,he played really well when he came on but honestly at 35 I think coming on as a sub is the best thing at this level.

Will Earls be back next week?If so I'd put him left wing and switch Trimble,McFadden on the bench for centre and wing cover.

Any news on injuries,D'Arcy was limping when he came off and Read was a huge loss for NZ it's no coincidence that Heaslip had a monster second half when McCaw had to play 8.

[rodders]

I think Earls might be back but honestly our backline functioned much much better today... personally I'd leave Earls out.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Basically I told someone to wise up as they blamed the referee for "killing the game" at the end there. Then Cymroglan or whatever his name is, comes in and starts moaning at me, then Dreamer comes in and gives him a "well said" which contributes flip all to anything, except making things worse. Then I explain why the referee shouldn't be blamed and that they did well, and then I am told I show a lack of empathy or something. So flipping childish. They think they have some sort of right to act like that because they lost. Well incase they forgot, so did we.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Basically avoid that thread unless you want attacked.

[Thomond]

ROG played very well I have to say .... we'd probably have won by 12 pts if Madigan was on the bench.... but it was still a fine performance by ROG..

That is possibly the biggest load of shoite I have ever seen on here. Kudos.

[Biltong]

Some of them are really making these forums difficult.

exactly why I took a few days break, sometimes it is necessary to step away from it for a while.

Well it is absolutely shocking behaviour. They need to get over themselves, we were just as gutted with our loss FFS.

Really, there have been too many people that are taking "breaks" or leaving these forums recently.

What's going on Rory? Something on another thread?

Yep, the referee with some assistance by Priestland.

[Rory_Gallagher]

ROG played very well I have to say .... we'd probably have won by 12 pts if Madigan was on the bench.... but it was still a fine performance by ROG..

That is possibly the biggest load of shoite I have ever seen on here. Kudos.

It was a clear joke, Thomond.

[SecretFly]

Caulm down, caulm down! As those two Harry Enfield scousers used to say to each other

[Thomond]

ROG and D'Arcy played well, very well. Murray did too. It was a pleasing reaction from those guys. I was quite unimpressed when Kidney made the pre-planned ROG substitution but it actually worked very well this time.

McLaughlin should stay for the third test. Heaslip upped his game and Best was everywhere. No changes in the pack. McFadden... still not convinced? Switch Trimble (who was disappointingly quiet though played well when the game opened up) to his wing and bring back Zebo.

The performance was better than I could have hoped for but there was a lack of the clinical edge that is the difference between winners and also-rans. Thats why the All Blacks deserved it. We played better than them on the day but they have the bigger balls. All in all, I'm not going to pretend to be happy with a defeat. I would say that the performance is hugely encouraging but it's still just a one off until its backed up, like all our other good one-offs. Consistency is what needs to be delivered.

ROG and Sexton has worked well prety much every time we've used it if I recall right. It's a nice plan B. McLaughlin put in some great work around the park. I'd agree. I'm pleased but not happy if you get me. The team should want more and we want more. Murray did very well, a combination of the two is the way to go in my opinion we need the defence of Murray.

[stevetynant]

Anyone think the choke tackle actually worked against Ireland in this game- a number of times the Irish players- Healy and Best especially held the Blacks with the ball but the Dynamism of the ABs forwards just meant they were able to get a drive on and gain fairly easy yards where as unlike in the past we didn't manage to keep the ball off the ground long enough - is this tactic now being worked out and needs a rethink?

[SecretFly]

Anyone think the choke tackle actually worked against Ireland in this game- a number of times the Irish players- Healy and Best especially held the Blacks with the ball but the Dynamism of the ABs forwards just meant they were able to get a drive on and gain fairly easy yards where as unlike in the past we didn't manage to keep the ball off the ground long enough - is this tactic now being worked out and needs a rethink?

It needed a rethink after the first week of it's exposure as an Irish tactic.

No, not saying there isn't a time and place where it can still work, for us and indeed for other sides, but you need a number of tricks and ideas not to overly rely on one. Any trick that becomes synonymous with a particular side is a trick overused. So rethink all tricks and introduce new ones...that's where Ireland is lacking - the closet of tricks.

[Standulstermen]

My reaction:

Healy- Simply immense, couple of handling errors but great carrying, great scrummaging, great defence.
Best- Really good on the floor and in the choke tackles. His defence was very, very good too. One overthrow but pretty good showing.
Ross- I thought he was poor, his scrummaging side was the weaker of the two. Looked slow at getting into rucks giving Kiwis a chance to get in.
Ryan- I though he was our best player. So aggressive. Great around the park and in the lineout he was pretty good too. His tackling at times was huge.
Tuohy- The scrum improved when he came off. Good showing in the lineout, powerful in defence too. Needs to carry more. Could this not have been to do with the change in the AB front row? I thought Tuphy was great today but was certainly outshone by Ryan. DOC out of the squad when POC returns imo.
McL- Was good. His defence is outstanding. Good in the rucks but could have offered more going forward.
SOB- Becoming very very good on the floor and competed very well. Some good carries. Could do with seeing him out in midfield attacking more. One of our best players.
Heaslip- His best game in ages. Serious defence and work at the breakdown. Made some good carries too.
Murray- Huge improvement on last week but still a little slow and not organising the back of the ruck. Like I said an improvement but Reddan came on and was quicker.
Sexton- Really good game. Great defence and kicking. Ran the backs well and kicked his goals well. Controlled the game more than last week.
Trimble- Felt he was pretty anonymous. Didn't get on the ball that much. Could well be low on confidence. His wing was targeted off restarts.
Darcy- A good game I felt nothing too major but he dealt with SBW who again didn't make his breaks/offloads. Hard defence and didn't kill any of our attacks.
BOD- Really good game, looked threatening with the ball and his defence while he lost yards a lot it resulted in slowing up ball a lot. Will be gutted about the result.
McFadden- Played pretty well, no defensive errors. Ran very hard and some good lines.
Kearney- Again wish he'd entered the line more and been used in attack more. Very solid and strong in the tackle.

Other:
Scrum wasn't as good as last week
Some line blips
Restarts were still very poor
Quicker ball than last week while still not quick enough
Great intensity
Great defence
Attack was very positive at times
BOD worked well as a crash option when necessary
Positive bench impact
Need to bring wingers in more

Very proud of the lads, gutted we didn't get a result.

The restarts are an issue and we didnt split our locks which often meant is was SOB competing against a full flight Read. I think you have to give NZ credit here but Ireland need a plan to combat it for the 3rd test. I still dont think we offer enough in attack. BOD made the most yards on the crash ball which i was surprised in.

Steve

I have been saying for some time the choke tackle is costing us by giving up cheap yards. Its great to have in your arsenal but it needs to be applied sparingly.

[rodders]

ROG played very well I have to say .... we'd probably have won by 12 pts if Madigan was on the bench.... but it was still a fine performance by ROG..

That is possibly the biggest load of shoite I have ever seen on here. Kudos.

It was a clear joke, Thomond.

Oh no it wasn't! ....

[rodders]

If I haven't said so already... well played lads, great effort... massive defence and a big improvement in attack.... but please God will you find some killer instinct in the opposition 22 and catch those feicing restarts... and FFS why can't you play with that intensity and urgency every week??

The series is gone now but one last chance to get an elusive win against the AB's next week. BELIEVE

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well guys, enjoy the 3rd test, I am taking a break from these forums for a bit so I won't be here to argue with Sin e for a week straight beforehand (I shall miss him ) but I really do hope we get the win, and I think we have shown we are CAPABLE of winning, but we need to actually show that we are up there with the best and WIN. Not almost win, but completely steal a victory from NZ in their very own backyard.

Anyways, later guys! Enjoy.

[rodders]

Rory

[brennomac]

Glad to see you've drawn back from the Roy Keane-type comments you were posting earlier on Rodders, words like "disgrace" are way out of line when describing the game today.

Yes, we're all disappointed that we didn't win, didn't manage to close out a match and some poor decisions were taken in the last 10 minutes. But reading the NZ media online, they all take the view that NZ were steeped today and AB's have been reading too much of their own hype.

We lost, but there huge grounds for some optimism as long as this isn't a once-off. Did any of us ever expect to see an AB pack get as going-over like that from an Irish pack, Healy-Best-Ross mincing the AB front row, McCaw being made to have a stinker, Carter kicking his goals but not a lot more, AB back line totally anonymous in attack. What was shown today is that when the game is taken to the AB's and their pack nullified then they are not the team they think they are.

There were any number of Irish players who played blinders - the entire pack, Sexton (apart from taking on a kick that was outside his range - maybe ROG should have taken it), BOD (apart from some loose kicks).

I agree completely that we have to get over the mindsets of honourable in defeat when we play teams like the AB's. We have to aim to win but to label today's display as a "disgrace", well maybe you should think again.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

In fairness to Rodders he was exaggerating in opinion. But one thing he is right about is we should not be happy with 'awk well lads we almost won' or 'we played much better'. It's a non issue. I'd take crap rugby and winning every match thanks all the same to a 'heroic' loss today. Earlier this week I called for Ireland to try and pull something from the amateur era- a game of frenzied passion and pride in the shirt to try and make up for our natural inferiorities. That was a classic amateur era Irish performance. Heroic, brave, bodies on the line, passion in the shirt, but at the end of the day just not good enough to win when it counts. Once again there is a lack of precision, clarity in attack, decision making and calmness in the oppositions 22.

We has a great thread this week without Sin in it and I really enjoyed being a part of it. We are passionate Irish fans from all four provinces and we could be forceful with our opinions without being disrespectful to others. There is a lot to take that is positive from today. A lot of the players deserve praise. Declan Kidney and his coaching staff for getting their tactics spot on. But let's not beat around the bush, we lost today and simply weren't good enough. Maybe Rodders took it too far, but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on.

[mystiroakey]

"'we played much better'. It's a non issue"

it is the REAL issue.

this is NZ in NZ

if that was the last game before a WC id be pretty confident about my team. Understand there is work to do, but id be happy that my team had the general play to win

[mystiroakey]

As an england fan- i look at everything as a build up to a world cup.

Do other fans look at things like that- or is it just me???

[mystiroakey]

" but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on."

that is spot on what he said- however if you had lost to spain on pens he wouldnt have said that(that is the equivelant of what you did today!!)

There are two very different scenarios- losing 4-0 is like being beat by 50 pts at rugby

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

" but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on."

that is spot on what he said- however if you had lost to spain on pens he wouldnt have said that(that is the equivelant of what you did today!!)

There are two very different scenarios- losing 4-0 is like being beat by 50 pts at rugby

This is exactly what I am talking about Mystiroakey. You have just displayed some series small time thinking here (well intentioned so I'm not being personal at you). Yes we played much better, but so what? How does that console a team who largely outplayed the best in the world and still lost. The only consolation that performance will provide is in March 2013 when we can sit down and say that this performance turned Ireland around to the team it should be. We lost, but it gave us the confidence to know we can not just compete with the southern hemisphere teams, but beat them. If we don't do that, if we just say 'awk well sure we played well' then it will just be another chapter in Kidney's tenure. Win the Grand Slam- no follow up. Hammer England at the Aviva- no follow up. Beat Australia in the World Cup- lose to Wales. Put in a good performance against New Zealand-.......? Kidney is being artificially propped up by these results, hiding a tenure that just hasn't cut it.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

...anyways time for the Welsh to show us how it should be done .

True, on their day they can blow their chance to beat anyone better than Ireland

oh wow

[mystiroakey]

" but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on."

that is spot on what he said- however if you had lost to spain on pens he wouldnt have said that(that is the equivelant of what you did today!!)

There are two very different scenarios- losing 4-0 is like being beat by 50 pts at rugby

This is exactly what I am talking about Mystiroakey. You have just displayed some series small time thinking here (well intentioned so I'm not being personal at you). Yes we played much better, but so what? How does that console a team who largely outplayed the best in the world and still lost. The only consolation that performance will provide is in March 2013 when we can sit down and say that this performance turned Ireland around to the team it should be. We lost, but it gave us the confidence to know we can not just compete with the southern hemisphere teams, but beat them. If we don't do that, if we just say 'awk well sure we played well' then it will just be another chapter in Kidney's tenure. Win the Grand Slam- no follow up. Hammer England at the Aviva- no follow up. Beat Australia in the World Cup- lose to Wales. Put in a good performance against New Zealand-.......? Kidney is being artificially propped up by these results, hiding a tenure that just hasn't cut it.

look pal i am an england fan- i have seen england progress and move on in small steps, in cricket and rugby. The more tight games your in - you eventually turn it around(btw the way my thinking in reagrds to wales is exactly your stance- it really is there time to step up).

you cant look at this as a consolation- its a stepping stone only and a good one. I personally think small time thinking is thinking you had to win this game becasue it was your only chance.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

look pal i am an england fan- i have seen england progress and move on in small steps, in cricket and rugby. The more tight games your in - you eventually turn it around(btw the way my thinking in reagrds to wales is exactly your stance- it really is there time to step up).

you cant look at this as a consolation- its a stepping stone only and a good one. I personally think small time thinking is thinking you had to win this game becasue it was your only chance.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making personal shots at you and I hope you don't perceive it that way. I am criticising the small time thinking that other Irish fans are also showing. But you are right, but its only a stepping stone if you take a step. Under Johnston's England you should better than anyone when one offs are little more than false dawns. But to say as you rightly have criticised, as others have, that this was our only chance is self defeatist nonsense. If that is the thought process then we will never beat them. If we play like that next weekend then we can beat them. But we need to improve the basic accuracy and composure in our play.

[mystiroakey]

Look I like what roy keane said- but that sort of attitude has been around england sporting teams for a long time and it makes us sound very arrogant- if you cant become the best then it can work against you.. big time!

England have kind off gone full circle on this these days because of the above. You gotta be humble in defeat and just congratulate the winning team sometimes..

[asoreleftshoulder]

" but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on."

that is spot on what he said- however if you had lost to spain on pens he wouldnt have said that(that is the equivelant of what you did today!!)

There are two very different scenarios- losing 4-0 is like being beat by 50 pts at rugby

This is exactly what I am talking about Mystiroakey. You have just displayed some series small time thinking here (well intentioned so I'm not being personal at you). Yes we played much better, but so what? How does that console a team who largely outplayed the best in the world and still lost. The only consolation that performance will provide is in March 2013 when we can sit down and say that this performance turned Ireland around to the team it should be. We lost, but it gave us the confidence to know we can not just compete with the southern hemisphere teams, but beat them. If we don't do that, if we just say 'awk well sure we played well' then it will just be another chapter in Kidney's tenure. Win the Grand Slam- no follow up. Hammer England at the Aviva- no follow up. Beat Australia in the World Cup- lose to Wales. Put in a good performance against New Zealand-.......? Kidney is being artificially propped up by these results, hiding a tenure that just hasn't cut it.

That's the major thing,this can't be a once off or else it's worthless.We have to back this up next week,in the autumn and the 6 Nations.Then we can say that Kidney and his team have finally managed to turn things around but if we regress next week then this has been another wasted opportunity.

[mystiroakey]

" but Roy Keane got it right on the Republic's football team. You need to go out and win, and today just didn't cut it. But at least, unlike last week, we have something to build on."

that is spot on what he said- however if you had lost to spain on pens he wouldnt have said that(that is the equivelant of what you did today!!)

There are two very different scenarios- losing 4-0 is like being beat by 50 pts at rugby

This is exactly what I am talking about Mystiroakey. You have just displayed some series small time thinking here (well intentioned so I'm not being personal at you). Yes we played much better, but so what? How does that console a team who largely outplayed the best in the world and still lost. The only consolation that performance will provide is in March 2013 when we can sit down and say that this performance turned Ireland around to the team it should be. We lost, but it gave us the confidence to know we can not just compete with the southern hemisphere teams, but beat them. If we don't do that, if we just say 'awk well sure we played well' then it will just be another chapter in Kidney's tenure. Win the Grand Slam- no follow up. Hammer England at the Aviva- no follow up. Beat Australia in the World Cup- lose to Wales. Put in a good performance against New Zealand-.......? Kidney is being artificially propped up by these results, hiding a tenure that just hasn't cut it.

That's the major thing,this can't be a once off or else it's worthless.We have to back this up next week,in the autumn and the 6 Nations.Then we can say that Kidney and his team have finally managed to turn things around but if we regress next week then this has been another wasted opportunity.

win or minor loss is immaterial if you dont build on it! unless your only goal is to win in NZ!!! which isnt really what i would call reaching for the stars!

[asoreleftshoulder]

Yeah but unfortuantely that has been the pattern so far under Kidney oe good perfromance and then back to the usual dross.

I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt as that wasn't just a good performance from the players,there was a lot to be happy about in the coaches too.We used our bench early and the team showed they had learned from their mistakes last week.I've vilified Kidney and co. when we've made the same mistakes and played a stupid conservative gameplan so I'll give them these things change.I think they can be very happy with their contribution this week.

[disneychilly]

As an england fan- i look at everything as a build up to a world cup.

Do other fans look at things like that- or is it just me???

We're the total opposite. To look at test matches as warmups for something devalues it IMO. A Test is a Test. They should be given the utmost respect and we get furious if we lose even one.

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